Time to talk about Hawaiian self-determination

[The Sushi Bandit]

Can we start "Forum" on this subject??

"The cause of Hawaii and independence is larger and dearer than the life of any man connected with it. Love of country is deep-seated in the breast of every Hawaiian, whatever his station."
- Lili`uokalani, Hawaii's last Queen

"This is a historical issue, based on a relationship between an independent government and the United States of America, and what has happened since and the steps that we need to take to make things right."
- Republican Governor Linda Lingle, January 2003

"The recovery of Hawaiian self-determination is not only an issue for Hawaii, but for America. ... let all of us, Hawaiian and non-Hawaiian, work toward a common goal. Let us resolve ... to advance a plan for Hawaiian sovereignty."
- Democratic Governor Ben Cayetano
1998 State of the State Address

[Must_B_Free]

1. Hawaiian Independence - A supreme joke

independence for the tahitian invaders who took the island through violence and relegated its original inhabitants to little leprechauns in a fairy tale, known as Menehune or "Small Power".

They got what they gave, too friggin bad. If you conquor, you give up the right to complain about being conquored.

And how did he do it? Through terrorism. The guy who worshipped the war God and set up human sacrifices in Hawaii was the one to first rule all the islands.

[Snow]

2. Fascinating -

I'd heard rumblings; didn't realize it'd been in a State of the State address. The takeover was a disgraceful episode, and staying there plainly motivated by military and big fruit/sugar companies. Given those opponents, what will your strategy be? And what about Alaska?

[Must_B_Free]

3. Haole Takeover more disgraceful than the Tahitian takeover?

how so?

[htuttle]

8. It was more disgraceful...

...because it was done by the US.

Aren't we supposed to hold ourselves to a higher standard? I'm sick of this shit where our government's actions are apologized for by comparing it to something worse.

"Hey, he's not as bad as Stalin..."

If we are going to spend so much effort convincing ourselves that we're some bastion of freedom, we might find it easier if we just started acting like it.

From a legal point of view, Hawaii should have sovereignity.

[Must_B_Free]

16. there's more to it

Hawaii is a participant in a unique modern culture that it would not enjoy in the same way without that takeover.

It is already enough controversy over just having a Haole boy in a Hawaiian heritage school, it would be near impossible to try to divvy up power structures. From what I understand there are already 4 distinct heritage groups who each want the seat of power.

It's like the reparations for slavery thing, there may be merit and some ideas, but implementation seems something difficult. At least in slavery, a clear wrong was committed.

Given the way the Tahitians gained sovereignty in the first place, why is it not fair for them to lose sovereignty in the same way they gained sovereignty over Hawaii in the first place?

[The Sushi Bandit]

9. President Bill Clinton and Joint Resolution Public Law 103-150: 107 Stat 1

U.S. President Bill Clinton signs the Joint Resolution Public Law 103-150: 107 Stat 1510, acknowledging the wrongdoing of the United States' participation in the unlawful overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom. This document effectively repudiates the American claim of ownership of Hawai'i.

_______________________


To acknowledge the 100th anniversary of the January 17, 1893 overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, and to offer an apology to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the United States for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whereas, prior to the arrival of the first Europeans in 1778, the Native Hawaiian people lived in a highly organized, self-sufficient, subsistent social system based on communal land tenure with a sophisticated language, culture, and religion;

Whereas, from 1826 until 1893, the United States recognized the independence of the Kingdom of Hawaii, extended full and complete diplomatic recognition to the Hawaiian Government, and entered into treaties and conventions with the Hawaiian monarchs to govern commerce and navigation...

Whereas, on January 14, 1893... the United States Minister assigned to the sovereign and independent Kingdom of Hawaii conspired with a small group of non-Hawaiian residents of the Kingdom of Hawaii, including citizens of the United States, to overthrow the indigenous and lawful Government of Hawaii;

Whereas, soon thereafter, when informed of the risk of bloodshed with resistance, Queen Liliuokalani issued the following statement yielding her authority to the United States Government rather than to the Provisional Government:

"I Liliuokalani, by the Grace of God and under the Constitution of the Hawaiian Kingdom, Queen, do hereby solemnly protest against any and all acts done against myself and the Constitutional Government of the Hawaiian Kingdom by certain persons claiming to have established a Provisional Government of and for this Kingdom.
"That I yield to the superior force of the United States of America whose Minister Plenipotentiary, His Excellency John L. Stevens, has caused United States troops to be landed a Honolulu and declared that he would support the Provisional Government.
"Now to avoid any collision of armed forces, and perhaps the loss of life, I do this under protest and impelled by said force yield my authority until such time as the Government of the United States shall, upon facts being presented to it, undo the action of its representatives and reinstate me in the authority which I claim as the Constitutional Sovereign of the Hawaiian Islands."
- Queen Liliuokalani, Jan 17, 1893
Whereas, without the active support and intervention by the United States diplomatic and military representatives, the insurrection against the Government of Queen Liliuokalani would have failed for lack of popular support and insufficient arms.

Whereas, in a message to Congress on December 18, 1893, President Grover Cleveland reported fully and accurately on the illegal acts of the conspirators, described such acts as an "act of war, committed with the participation of a diplomatic representative of the United States and without authority of Congress", and acknowledged that by such acts the government of a peaceful and friendly people was overthrown... President Cleveland further concluded that a "substantial wrong has thus been done which a due regard for our national character as well as the rights of the injured people requires we should endeavor to repair" and called for the restoration of the Hawaiian monarchy.

Whereas, the indigenous Hawaiian people never directly relinquished their claims to their inherent sovereignty as a people or over their national lands to the United States, either through their monarchy or through a plebiscite or referendum.

Whereas, the health and well-being of the Native Hawaiian people is intrinsically tied to their deep feelings and attachment to the land;
Whereas, the long-range economic and social changes in Hawaii over the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries have been devastating to the population and to the health and well-being of the Hawaiian people;
Whereas, the Native Hawaiian people are determined to preserve, develop and transmit to future generations their ancestral territory, and their cultural identity in accordance with their own spiritual and traditional beliefs, customs, practices, language, and social institutions;

Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
The Congress
- apologizes to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the people of the United States for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii on January 17, 1893... and the deprivation of the rights of Native Hawaiians to self-determination;
- expresses its commitment to acknowledge the ramifications of the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, in order to provide a proper foundation for reconciliation between the United States and the Native Hawaiian people; and
- urges the President of the United States to also acknowledge the ramifications of the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii and to support reconciliation efforts between the United States and the Native Hawaiian people.


"...the logical consequences of this resolution would be independence."
- Senator Slade Gorton (R-Washington), US Senate Congressional Record
Wednesday, October 27, 1993, 103rd Cong. 1st Sess.

[RC]

4. United States Congress. Why are you still ignoring...

[The Sushi Bandit]

5. Native Americans have more rights than Hawaiians

They have control over their "Reservations" dont they?

[Astarho]

17. Not necessarily

They have control over their "Reservations" dont they?

Google the Bennett Freeze Act

In areas of this same reservation, the U.S. government has imposed a law which is commonly called the Bennett Freeze act. This law makes it a CRIME to make any improvements.

http://www.aics.org/BM/news2.html

[LeahMira]

6. Good idea...

Can we start "Forum" on this subject??

I don't know much about the topic, but I'd be very interested in reading and learning from everyone else.

Truthfully, though, there hasn't been much movement on the idea of honoring the treaties that the U.S. made with the sovereign nations that still exist here on the mainland. The conquest, occupation and annexation of Hawaii is just one step farther along the same old westward expansion road. How can Hawaiians even dream of sovereignty in the face of U.S. domination?

(I really do wish someone would/could stop the U.S.!)

[DoNotRefill]

7. Ain't gonna happen....

Trust me on this, I'm Southern. Once the Government gets ahold of your land, they ain't letting go for shit.

[stopthegop]

10. if "Hawaiian sovereignty" means an independent nation

it would be a tragedy for anyone living there (IMO)...the Indian tribes are supposedly sovereign, but don't seem to be great places to live...there are more benefits in being part of the US than in not being part of the US...

when a territory has been part of a nation (or a posession in this case) it's hard for it to leave peacefully..ask the confederacy...and the confederacy was technically entitled to leave under the understanding at that time of the constitution....

on edit..if we (humans) try to go back and uncouple every political subdivision to it 'original' configuration there's no end to it, because there's always going to be some group that will say they were here first...ie: europeans subdued native Americans, who came across a land bridge from Aisa..was anyone here when they arrived?

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. Hawaiians should have though of that

before they decided to become a state. Once you become a state, you are a state forever. We fought a war over this about 140 years ago.

[davidinalameda]

14. the Hawaiians had no real say in the matter

the Queen was overthrown by American plantation owners

the Hawaiians, for the most part, opposed this

but the plantation owners were backed by the US government at the time.

Just saw something about this on the History Channel or PBS--can't remember which one

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. I'm talking about statehood, not annexation

The people of Hawaii voted on November 7, 1950 to join the Union.

http://hawaii-nation.org/admission.html

[The Sushi Bandit]

22. Hawaiian takeover history timeline

http://www.reinstated.org/HTML/intro-2.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. November 7, 1950: Hawaiians vote to join the Union

They seem to have left that out of the timeline fro some reason.

[rucky]

12. Any native ethnic group who wants self-determination should get it

yep, I said it.

[stopthegop]

13. how do you determine the original 'native group'? n/t

.

[Must_B_Free]

18. The story of Hawaiian political revisionism - the original inhabitants

The original inhabitants were described by the Tahitian invaders as "shy, forest dwelling, bananna eating people; short or otherwise inferior." There were legends created to shroud the genocide, but the truth is that the original inhabitants were forced into slave labour.

Here is the legend from Kauai, which the Tahitians did not control for some reason. This is the description of the acquisition of Hawaii by the people who claim to deserve sovereignty over it:

"Not too long after, around 1200 A.D. great armies from another land arrived to conquer these beautiful islands. Since the people did not understand these destructive ways or weapons, they were murdered and subdued. Because of their peaceful ways, the newcomers laughed and called them ‘mana hune’ meaning small power. Many people fled to Kaua’i and into the hills and mountains

The conquering armies would make great demands on the people to build structures and complete tasks. If they failed to meet the demands, the newcomers would kill the people. To help their loved ones, the people hiding in the hills and on other islands would come after sunset and work together to complete the tasks. And this is how the reputation for great Menehune feats was born. It was only safe to come out of hiding at night. These legends were passed on to the missionaries and other people that came to the islands later."

http://www.alohaplentyhawaii.com/noseybrd.htm

The word "Menehune" can be translated as "slave" in the Tahitian language.

http://www.janesoceania.com/hawaii_kauai_mythology/

It is a far cry from the Tahitian sanitized "Menehune ditch" tale told to tourists. By this point they have turned them in to black "smurfs":

"The tale of the menehune is as ancient as the history of the islands themselves. According to legend, when the first Polynesians arrived on the Hawaiian Islands, they found dams, fishponds, roads and temples, presumably built by these mysterious little master builders.

Menehune are sly, sneaky and can appear and disappear in the blink of an eye. Particularly active at night, their work does not cease unless they know they are being watched or when the sun comes up.

Legend has it that the menehune stand a full two feet high, although some are only six inches tall and can fit in the palm of your hand. Darkly tanned, pot-bellied, hairy and muscular, each menehune has a distinct personality with mercurial mood swings. One day they might be malicious and mean-spirited, and a harmless prankster the next. Given the proper reverence, a menehune may act like your "fairy godparent." If something wonderful happens and you can't quite explain it, someone might remark that it is the work of the menehune."

Clearly Romanesque political revisionism.

[slackmaster]

15. Great, so I could go back to Germany and kick some Kraut ass

Especially the Roman Catholics who messed with my ancestors.

:D

[theboss]

24. So, the Celts need to get their act together

Advance, Brittania!!

What is a native person at this point in history? I mean, I'm not techically from anywhere if you are going by "native person." I don't know what towns by ancestors came from in Italy or Ireland and I am certainly not "Native American."

I think it is possible to get a little too hung up on making good on the crimes of the past. Otherwise, Italy and Iran are going to be paying a pantsload of reparations.

[The Sushi Bandit]

19. Thanks Bush!

From another website..

It was recently reported, (if anyone has the exact quote please
post), that Bush was asked in a press conference "What about
Hawaiian Sovereignty?"

His response was curt and impolite, he did not want to talk about that.

[stopthegop]

20. that's because it's an idea that is

(thankfully) not at all in the mainstream

[The Sushi Bandit]

23. Federal judge dismisses lawsuit against OHA

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2004/Jan/15/ln/ln03a.html

[Arkady]

25. 2 Less Democrat Senators

Well, Hawaiian independence would just ensure Republican control over the Senate (2 less Democratic Senators). Plus, the US would ubdoubtedly retain a long-term lease on the naval bases in Hawaii, and it's doubtful that an independent Hawaii would be allowed to have its own foreign policy.

What's the upside for Hawaiians of independence? I just don't see the point.

[Fescue4u]

26. Been there done that.

Last time a state tried to break away we had a little spat called the civil war.

[mot78]

27. This is an example of stupid nationalism

Our planet continues to break up into smaller and smaller countries, and this hyper-nationalism has to be stopped. If the Hawaiians really wanted Independence, then they shouldn't have applied for statehood! Hypothetically, if Hawaii ever decided to secede, I'd join the military to crush it's uprising. As Lincoln said, we must preserve the Union, and the Union is made up of many different groups, where Independence for them would not work economically. If we followed the precedent of these Hawaiian Independence people, then we might as well restore the Confederacy, or let the southwest have a referendum on whether or not it wants to rejoin Mexico. Hell, we might as well have a referendum in Louisiana on whether or not it wants to be part of France!
It's stupid nationalism, plain and simple.