I think going to the Moon and Mars is the best idea to come out of Bush

[Ediacara]

Seriously.

Look, I know that a lot of people have been bitching and moaning concerning Bush's new initiative to go to the Moon and Mars. You all have valid concerns about our monetary priorities, but we have the technology, and the monetray resources (really rather minor compared to the national budget) to go to Mars, and we need people to do it. Here's what we should be looking for:

1) I am a paleontologist first and foremost, but I love geology. I want rocks, and lots of them. Bringing humans to the Moon or Mars gives us the ability to gather literally thousands of rocks, and bring them back to the Earth. Rocks can tell us everything. Literally EVERYTHING. Read on to find out why.

2) I want fossils (if there are any). Robots are bad fossil hunters. Hell, most humans are bad fossil hunters. Humans actually looking for fossils and/or biological structures (stromatolites etc) are the only things that will find fossils (if there are any).

So what? What do rocks tell us?

Rocks, ground into 0.3 mm thick thin sections can tell you the entire history of the rock. The mineralogical composition, the eruption or intrusion history, and ultimately, if you have enough thin sections from enough localities across the planet, will tell you the geological history of the planet.

We know that the Mare (dark areas) of the Moon are pretty standard issue basalts because we went there, got the rocks, and brought them back (as an aside, it's actually kind of disapointing seeing just how ordinary the basalts are on the Moon). The light areas we THINK are a type of basalt known as Anorthosite, which is made almost entirely of plagioclase feldspar. There is a theory of the geological evolution of the Moon explaining the differentiation of the Anorthosite highlands and flood basalt Mare, but until we actually have samples of rocks from other areas of the moon, we won't know, we can't ever falsify or support that theory.

And Mars...... Mars is most interesting because we don't know at all what types of rocks are there. We think they're basalts, but we just don't know (the volcanos look a lot like Basalt volcanos on Earth though, so it's not totally without data). What's also interesting is that there is an atmosphere on Mars, and there has been erosion and sedimentation. There also was liquid water, and what I want to look for are carbonate rocks. Carbonates could hold the key for discovering past evidence of life, as could finely laminated siltstones.

If we discover the answers to these questions, if we gather these data, we are going to be answering some very fundimental questions about the origin of our solar system, and the origin of Earth. If we find basalts, then we know geology seems to be on the right track, if we find something we're not expecting, then we know that geology is more insteresting than we have ever dreamed.

Robots aren't smart enough to look for the right types of rocks and fossils, they aren't strong enough to get them, and it's just not feasable to be looking for it by remote control with a ten minute delay. Going back to the Moon and to Mars is the right idea at the right time, but it just came out of the wrong mouth.

[meisje]

1. too bad it will be cut

in order to pay for more tanks

[pmbryant]

2. Don't believe the hype

Please tell me you don't believe what Bush is saying. He pulls the bait and switch routine all the time. Why would you take him at his word now?

And I believe you are wrong about robots, anyway. There is no reason robots can't collect the rocks you want and bring them back to Earth, where scientists can analyze them to their heart's content. That would be a whole lot cheaper (hundreds of times cheaper at least!!) than trying to send humans on an extremely risky mission.

Plus, that could be done a whole lot sooner as well.

But back to the real issue: I hope you don't really believe Bush means this? Did you catch that he is only promising $1B in new funding for the next 5 years. Did you catch that the NASA budget for real science is going to be decimated and diverted to this boondoggle?

--Peter


EDIT: Left out a crucial 'don't'

[Ediacara]

4. Do I think Bush is serious? Mmmmmmaybe

Do I think Robots could gather rocks? Not in 100 years.

Look, the rover we just sent can't even drive over its airbags (last I checked). The robots that they need to fit into the rockets are too small, and way too delicate.

A single human with a rock hammer and a space suit can get you hundreds of more rocks than any robot could, and could get it done faster and more efficiently without remote control delay.

I think that we'll be able to have high quality robots that could replace humans in that situation in the future, perhaps a century from now, but really the robots we have now are cameras and garden trowels mounted on wheels.

EDIT to add: You're right, his funding proposal is a joke, and if that's all he's wanting to spend, he's setting himself up for a huge failure.

[pmbryant]

9. Robots, funding, science...

The reason the current robots are small and not very flexible is because they are done on a budget and launched with budget rockets.

Spend a bit more money, build bigger rockets and the rover robots can become a hell of a lot more useful.

With the amount of money one has to spend to send humans to Mars safely, one could build and launch the most incredible robot ever seen many times over. (And, for the spinoff proponents, think of the economic benefits such greatly improved robot technology can offer!)

Bush's funding proposal is worse than a joke. It is the end of real space science. As a clear science enthusiast yourself, you might want to re-think this.

Bush has never shown anything but contempt for science, and this is just further evidence of his backwards attitude.

--Peter

[...Alltogethernow]

38. Absolutely accurate

Investing in science and technology in space exploration will yield great benefits for future generations. Besides, it helps promote research and development jobs in the country. I see it as goodness.

[tom_paine]

34. He doen't care. The Imperial Media will cover for him.

As it always has.

[joefree1]

7. Hey, hype the hype, we need frontiers!

I hope Bush gets this space program going. America needs frontiers. It's in our genes to explore and expand. And we need to start sending people into space soon before we seriously screw up earth.

But I agree that Bush is just yanking our chain. I hope our next Democratic President, whoever he or she may be, will support the space program.

As for robots, the American people will never get excited about a robotic mission to space. How many robot space shows do you see on TV.

Besides we need a place to send neo-cons and fundamentalist.

[Ediacara]

Re: excited about robots

Now..... I'm not against robots. People actually seemed to get pretty excited about each Voyager planetary flyby and the Mars Pathfinder missions, so it's not necisarily a media drain.

I'm for human exploration though because humans can get what we need better and more efficiently than robots can.

[sandnsea]

17. We'll get Mars candy bars

You're right, there's no way he'd actually do this. Regardless, I am so insulted that these bastards would propose tossing around billions of dollars going to Mars when they refuse to provide school buildings for our kids or health care for people who are dying. Money doesn't mean a damn thing to these people so what the hell is the problem with letting a kid learn to play an instrument or somebody see a doctor. Like Cheney said, deficits don't matter.

On edit:

No, Mars candy bars will get a big fat contract to send their candy to Iraq.

[mouse7]

26. 1200 Terawatts

That's the amount of energy that could be generated if the moon was completely covered in solar arrays.

1% of that covers our energy needs.

The moon is screaming to be used as an energy production platform. No ecologies would be ruined. No pollution.

[Nihil]

39. Nice one!

You almost had me there!

I'd started to reply thinking you were being serious then went back
and re-read it. :-)

Nihil

[mouse7]

31. Remember, Kucinich is a big supporter of peaceful space exploration

Just have to get the troops out of Iraq, cut the defense budget, and refuse to turn space into a massive weapons platform.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

3. I like space exploration projects in principle... but...

Remember.. this is SHRUB.. So you have to remember

1) He's using it to distract people for more pressing issues...

2) The digging projects he's talking about are designed to funnel more money to Haliburton (who will grossly overcharge)

3) He's proposing this at a time when we have a record defecit.

4) The estimated cost is seriously lowballed here. Does ANYONE believe his budget for this venture? Any bets on the final tally?

I'm more for doing some unmmanned missions. We've got to learn to crawl before we can walk. Even if we could afford this, our record for sending people into space as of late hasn't exactly been stellar.

But if we were under better conditions (not dealing with the above) I'd be all for it. Space travel is pretty darn "cool".

Edit to reword point #4

[BurtWorm]

8. Amen!

Besides, this idea didn't come out of Bush. He's stolen it, of course.

[mike_c]

5. I'm not sure I completely agree, despite being a...

...strong proponent of the manned space program. The sheer cost of getting people to Mars, keeping them alive long enough to do anything productive other than bring back bragging rights, and then return them to Earth (that's TWO big gravity wells, despite Mars' relatively smaller mass) is extravagant for simple exploratory missions. Given the number of years it will take to accomplish, and the amount of money, I think a comparable investment in robotic exploration could make robotics a lot more workable. Personally, I like the idea of a stepped up probe program to do the exploration and establish a working Mars base prior to the arrival of humans. At the very least we should be able to harvest or manufacture some of the resources necessary so that we don't have to carry them all along.

on edit: remember that the probes sent so far have themselves been severely limited by the costs and logistics. They're tiny, relatively delicate machines. With greater investment, we could send a payload mass comparable to a small group of humans and all their supplies and fuel for many months-- that's a lot of mass and could allow us to do quite a bit more with robotic probes.

on second edit: of course, if you really want to talk about long-term investments, just send a payload of mixed archeobacteria and wait a few hundred million years....

[elsiesummers]

6. Bush has never had to live

on a budget. Manned moon landings, the Iraq War, the homeland security, the medicare prescription drugs -

they are all the programs of a rich kid with an unlimited bank account who had the bills, and the unforseen expenses taken care of by his rich daddy.

This is one more way for Bush to pay off the people who put him in the White House with contracts - the looting of the treasury.

I always thought my big problem with Bush would be that he is anti-abortion.

But no - my big problem with Bush is that he spends money like the spoiled rich kid that he is - the guy who never had to figure out how to pay bills on a paycheck - he's just a rich kid loser who ended up president because daddy bought him another job, just like his previous jobs.

[OneTwentyoNine]

32. As much as I like Aviation and Space Ex I totally agree with you....eom

[Wonco_the_Sane]

10. Srcrew Shrubby, we should do this

Forget the Pres. this is something that would be good for all people-kind. I don't know much about geology, but that is only one area that will get a boon from the new technology that would come from this. Transistor technology is a direct descendant from manned space missions, so was WD-40 and everyones favorite orange drink too!!! I'm not saying I want a glass of 87 billion dollar government Tang, but simply illustrating technologies diverse and vast potential that would be the obvious result of bold scientific exploration. NASA itself can't predict what new technology will result until it begins the problem solving phase of such a big enterprise. As I understand it, this will be a steady stage by stage process. Good idea to me. Besides Bush will be long gone by the time humans get to Mars.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sally343434]

11. Only one problem with all of this

Do you know what the problem is?

Well, I'll tell you.

It's not a serious proposal!

It amuses me how the media has been all over this all day as if it were actually a serious proposal. But it will simply be forgotten after a while, just like all the other "good ideas" that have been uttered through the mouth of *.

Recently I realized what this phenomenon really is.

How many of you have an alcoholic in the family? Those of you who do will know exactly what I'm talking about here.

My alcoholic brother can sit there, apparently lucid, and come up with the most plausible sounding stories to cover up his behavior. "Why weren't you in school like you said you were?" "What? I was in school." "No you weren't. I drove by your apartment and saw your car in the parking lot." "Oh, the car is broken down and I got a ride with a friend." "What friend?" And it goes on and on like this, and he just builds an amazingly complicated set of lies that SOUND good and reasonable, but they're all lies. He didn't go to school.

Many people "enable" this behavior by just accepting what is said because they don't want any confrontation, they want to believe, whatever.

Bush is the same package. It's all just rambling lies by an alcoholic. I have the same feeling when I hear him talk as I do when I hear my brother start in on one of his fantasies. It's all meaningless and not worthy of my time.

[Paragon]

12. Agreed - people will goof on him about it until Election Day

Thank you, George. :D

[w4rma]

13. I thought so too when I read only the headlines, but I read the fine print

…
The president's plan leaves it up to the space agency to take out of its own hide an extra $11 billion that will be required over the next five years to take merely the first steps toward the new solar system exploration plan
…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18228-2004Jan14.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1019427

As usual, the headlines look good for Bush, but the fine print is disastrous.

But, Smirk thinks that 1.5 BILLION on a PR campaign about marriage is better spent money than on NASA. :puke:

[jpgray]

14. He has no plans to go to the moon or Mars

It's set up to go at 2015. It's an election year shot in the dark--trick the spacies. :) Sorry, but that's what it looks like from here.

[corporatewhore]

15. I find the idea of discovering how great our schools canbe more exciting

with more moola of course It aint rocket science to spend the money on dicovering the enormous potential of earth before looking on another planet

[phrenzy]

16. Bush IS Going To Get Us Back On The Moon

Bush IS going to get us back on the moon and to Mars..

He'll do it right after he fulfills those other promises to solve the AIDS crisis in Africa, leave no child behind, save social security and to pioneer new hydrogen powered cars.

In other words. Never.

[jpgray]

18. Bingo (nt)

[Wonco_the_Sane]

19. Of course we should go!!!

This is all upside IMHO.


P.S. It's not like it's Bush's idea really. It's not like NASA heard that plan and said "Wow Mars eh, thank God for Dubbya, we should have thought of that".

[DoNotRefill]

20. ANY reason to explore space is a GOOD reason.

and I don't give a shit who suggested it, I hope it happens.

The Meek will inherit the earth. The Bold will inherit the stars.

[mouse7]

27. Agree n/t

[spooky3]

21. the question is not whether benefits would ensue

you can make the case for MANY expenditures as leading to good things, e.g., reduce the deficit, invest more in education, improve the health care system.

The question is, is this the best use of the funds we have right now, particularly given that we have a huge deficit?

[Q]

22. Feeney: U.S. Has Moral Authority to Control Space

Feeney: U.S. Has Moral Authority to Control Space

President Bush is expected to ask today for a $1 billion boost to NASA's budget over the next five years to fund the start of a new campaign in space to put a permanent base on the moon within 20 years and for American astronauts to land on Mars sometime after 2030. Meanwhile Republican Congressman Tom Feeney of Florida has publicly said United States has the "moral capability and authority to" take control of space. Feeney said on the cable news show "Scarborough Country " Whoever is able to dominate space will be able to control the destiny of the entire Earth. And I think America is the only country with the moral capability and authority to" . --- http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/14/1551251

[Nihil]

42. Now THAT is scary ...

Whoa!

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. I'm all for space exploration

AFTER we have fed every hungry person, here on earth. AFTER we have put every homeless person in a home. AFTER every American citizen has healthcare. AFTER every child has a decent school to go to for an education. AFTER we take care of what we already know exists. We have the largest deficit in our history and we want to spend BILLIONS more on space exploration? Let's take care of reality, first. Human beings mean more to me than rocks do. :( JMCPO

[mouse7]

28. Space can help all those things be accomplished

Space programs, in the hands of a good manager, are really excellent economic expansion investments.

Bush is a crappy manager. Given. Don't right off the idea once we get a Dem in office.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. You can NEVER feed every hungry person here

As soon as you get close, the population will grow. People will have more children and the crisis will increase. Similarly, your other demands are equally unrealistic.

Much good has been gained from the space program in technological and medical improvements. We need to seize this opportunity and move mankind to the moon, Mars and beyond.

[kcwayne]

24. Bush will fund this the same way as he funded his AIDS initiative

of 18 billion for Africa, and the no child left behind initiative, and the ...... you get the idea. There will be no funding.

This is propaganda for the masses, and has no substance. If a program gets put together, Haliburton or other Carlisle Group companies will scrape off 100 million or so and deliver nothing.

If the administration were serious about a project to energize the nation, they would fund pure research and technology development in renewable energy sources. But of course that will never happen as long as the government is a subsidiary of the oil cartel.

[Loonman]

25. We don't need to go to the moon again!

Unless we're terra-forming or colonizing.

We need to concentrate on Mars and beyond.

[mouse7]

30. We have to go to the moon to go to Mars

It's way too expensive to boost all the materials for a Mars mission into orbit from the Earth's surface. Constructing a Mars mission at a lunar base is really the only affordable way to get to Mars. All the raw materials for a Mars mission are there. We just refine them and construct them on the moon.

[OneTwentyoNine]

33. And the Bush promise to send men to the Sun and safely returning them?

Bush already going back on that promise? Ya just can't trust the guy!!


David

[tom_paine]

35. Except for the fact that it is a lie, sure.

The customary Potemkin Proposal, very fitting for a Third World dictator like Bush*.

As believeable as a 1978 Soviet Agriculture Report.

Don't worry DinoBoy. If this was a true proposal given by an honorable man and not just a Potemkin Lie designed to further the Imperial aim of banrupting the primary governement so that Imperial Control can be exerteed directly over the localities, maybe it would be greeted with the appropriate joy.

(and I agree, if this was a real proposal and not just a vehicle to finish eradicating the Old American Republic and militarize space, it would indeed be a cause for joy)

But it isn't. And thus my feeling is that when I see proud dreams being stolenm by Tyrants to further their bitter aims. And, of course, my feeling when a really really REALLY big lie is told.

[sendero]

36. Bush* wouldn't know the moon...

... from his own backside. This is politics, he has delusions of vision. And delusions is all they are.

[flaminbats]

40. cool!!!

we can pickup some great fossils on the moon, while creating billions of new fossils right here on Earth. Maybe some interested alien species will come take a look after we wiped ourselves out! :wow:

orrr, maybe they just will not care...

[FlaGranny]

41. Randi Rhodes was talking about this yesterday

and I just caught the end of it - something about the energy meeting with Halliburton. Wouldn't it just be peachy if Bush* wants to go to Mars for Dicky's company. Taxpayers foot the bill, Halliburton reaps the reward - if there are energy resources on Mars. If no energy resources, Halliburton hasn't lost a dime. If/when oil runs out on earth, can you imagine what Halliburton would charge for oil if it were found on Mars? Our taxes, if there are any of us left to pay them, would fund the whole damned enterprise.

I am on the side of space exploration, but not for the benefit of * cronies. You can trust nothing they say or do - NOTHING!

[GiovanniC]

45. Did You Catch Jon Stewart on TDS the other night?

Talking to the woman from NASA... asking why a Mars mission would be important, what value it could have. He said something like, "It looks like just a bunch of rocks... but if they have oil... we invade tomorrow!"

[FlaGranny]

47. Usually miss him - he's on late, just

when I'm taking the dog for a walk before bedtime, but I do like what I've seen of his show.

[watercolors]

43. Not bush's idea

It goes back to JFK and the idea of a base on the moon was discussed years ago, so wasn't Mars. This is just political Media to take the headlines away from Iowa. We would like to see more involvement in the space program, we have the ISA that is in need of completion, and is a great asset. New large missiles are needed, such as the old Saturn's. He is talking about trillions of dollars, and congress and the public will not go along.
We have been here in the Canaveral area since 1962, husband engineer at KSC, retired 5 yr ago. It has been an exciting time, rewarding, but there is not the same dedication to the program as in the beginning. Would love to see that ole spirit ho attitude again, but with all the problems we have in this country now, I don't think we can.

[GiovanniC]

44. Like Father, Like Son

"And next - for the new century - back to the Moon. Back to the future. And this time, back to stay. And then - a journey into tomorrow - a journey to another planet - a manned mission to Mars."
-- George H.W. Bush, July 29, 1989

Was 1989-1992 so great that we have to repeat it? An idiot president named Bush, a recession, war with Iraq...

He's just taking pages whole cloth from Daddy's playbook.

[sendero]

50. The more I watch Bush*....

... the more I'm convinced that impressing or outdoing his father is his greatest motivation. Saddam, now space. I was no big fan of his dad, but would say that he will never measure up to Bush I.

But he can sure wreck the country trying :)

[OneTwentyoNine]

46. If we had a Clinton economy I'd agree....

But we don't,we're up to our GD eyeballs in debt. Of course to the Repigs 1/2 a trillion in debt means little,spend more and pad the pockets of more Corporations.

Millions are laid off,jobs are going everywhere but the moon and Chimpboy wants to spend billions on going back to the rock. Lets get on track on EARTH first. Get the economy moving again and jobs back and then we can look at the stars.

David

[GiovanniC]

48. Exactly

I would like to buy a new computer right now. The one I have now is currently about four years old, and feels very slow. Getting a new one would help me immensely.

But even though I've balanced my budget and increased revenue, I need to pay off some of my national debt before I can fund any new programs.

[IkeWarnedUs]

49. This idea didn't come from Bush - it is the PNAC plan

I appreciate your desire for true scientific exploration, but you're kidding yourself if you think that's why Bush announced plans to go to space. You'll be picking up rocks in Afghanistan and Iraq before the moon and Mars.

Remember the Project for the New American Century's September 2000 report titled "Rebuilding America's Defenses; Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century"? It is where these arrogant SOB's told us exactly what they were going to do. They're not content for their empire of the world - they want to control the cosmos as well.

Here is what they have to say about space:

First under Key Findings in the Introduction (page v of the document, page 12 of the online PDF version):

CONTROL THE NEW "INTERNATIONAL COMMONS" OF SPACE AND "CYBERSPACE," and pave the way for the creation of a new military service - U.S. Space Forces - with the mission of space control.

They elaborate in Chapter V, "CREATING TOMORROW'S DOMINANT FORCE" (starts on page 50 of the document, page 62 of the PDF version).

In general, to maintain American military preeminence that is consistent with the requirements of a strategy of American global leadership, tomorrow's U.S. armed forces must meet three new missions:

(Second mission)
Control of space and cyberspace. Much as control of the high seas - and the protection of international commerce - defined global powers in the past, so will control of the new "international commons" be a key to world power in the future. An American incapable of protecting its interests or that of its allies in space or the "infosphere" will find it difficult to exert global political leadership.

They go on to elaborate further on each of the three missions, with Space and Cyberspace beginning on page 54 of the document (page 66 of the PDF format).

Incidentally, this is the section where they say "the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor." (top of left column, page 51 of the document, page 53 of the PDF format)

http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Just like they lied us into war, they are lying us into space. Please, please, please - don't fall for it.

[Ediacara]

51. Why do I think Bush announced plans?

Because he wants to be remembered as a bold and charismatic president like Kennedy.

I agree, he doesn't give a fuck about rocks and the evolution of the solar system, and as far as I can tell, he's a creationist.

That doesn't matter though, NASA's going to go and get rocks, and geologists are going to study them, and there's nothing that Bush can do to stop them.

And as for weaponizing the Moon..... Don't look for it to happen this century. The costs involved would be so outrageous that it would loose by a 435-0 vote in the house, and a 100-0 vote in the Senate. And literally tens of millions of Americans would protest like no other protests in the history of the world. PNAC is bad, but it's not inevitable, and the PNACers aren't invulnerable when people say no.