Video of Iraqi Killings

[Deege]

Did anyone else see the graphic US military video showing the killing of three Iraqi people that appeared on ABC News?

The one-minute file, filmed from a US Apache helicopter, shows three
apparently unarmed people being shot with 300mm cannon fire.

Video download (WARNING: some viewers may find this material disturbing):
<http://www.journalism.co.uk/imagesn/apache.mpeg>

I'm not trying to second guess soldiers in the field; I am not a military person. The soldiers claim one of the three Iraqis had a weapon. I do have a question about killing the wounded man. Don't rules of engagement, or Geneva Conventions dictate some other course for wounded combatants? I found this footage very disturbing.

Deege

P.S. If the video link doesn't work. Here's a link to the article and it includes the video link.
<http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/story795.shtml>

[Monte Carlo]

1. I saw that too - I was very suprised...

...that the Pentagon would allow footage like that to be shown on network TV, considering that it had been a total blackout of the combat up until then.

In that situation, the soldier's actions were fully justified. Those three were out in the middle of the desert with an RPG. They weren't exactly 'unarmed'. If it was us or them, it's going to be them. Those guys didn't have a snowball's chance in hell - the copter was probably miles away, had nightvision scopes, running quietly, with explosive rounds.

It is the fact that they were in this situation to begin with that is the problem. Things did not have to turn out this way.

[TeeYiYi]

5. I'm glad you pointed out the RPG . . .

. . . but it still makes me sick. (I actually watched it again.) Kind of like watching the movie "Scarface'. After awhile you get used to it. That's probably what happens to our soldiers. They don't see people they see targets. Sad.

TYY

[Monte Carlo]

6. There are no winners in war.

War is all about killing the other guys faster than they can kill you. I realize they had to do what they did in their situation, but the situation they found themselves in was beyond their control. Bush is ultimately the one responsible for this mess.

[StClone]

7. Beyond war

I saw some of the atrocities of Saddam return that we are told justified the invasion.

There was little outcry against what was shown, apparently then soldiers are justified in killing anything that moved, wounded or otherwise and no consulting the Geneva Convention.

War is hell and we have leaders that like to play God on the backs of Soldiers. The Soldiers were put in this mess. Though they can not be held blameless, much of the blame should fall on the Chicken Hawk Neo Nuts running this dirty little war.

[Monte Carlo]

9. I agree with you.

The soldiers are not blameless in this - they are a part of the whole, and orders are not an excuse. But they are not responsible for their situation - they signed up to defend their country, but instead are being used for political purposes.

[DoNotRefill]

22. there are different rules....

for dealing with guerillas than for dealing with enemy soldiers.

Somehow, I doubt these guys were in uniform...

[Superfly]

14. Question...

"running quietly"

Have you been watching Airwolf lately?

[Bertha Venation]

2. mother of god, why did i watch that

[TeeYiYi]

3. That is just plain sick and wrong . . .

Another example of what is wrong with this war. Nothing like videotaping your murders to show to everyone back home. The wounded one should definitely have been captured and made a POW. Right? Isn't that how it's supposed to work. This war is making me very tired. I'm running out of new and interesting ways to be disgusted.

TYY

[Bonobo]

4. God, I feel dirty!

We ARE the Nazis. I can't believe it... I thought nothig could shock me anymore...

[plcdude]

8. I think we need

to know the whole story here in order to make judgments. My reaction to it is that it shows how incapable the Iraqi's are and were to do anything that would threatened us. We are overwhelmingly superior and this display is disgusting. If these individuals were a clear and present danger are there not other ways to diffuse them than by sniping them from a helicopter? And just how often is this happening? Who were they?

[TexasMexican]

16. "shows how incapable the Iraqi's are..."

Just because they werent able to see or attack the Apache at that moment doesnt mean that they were incapable of harming our troops.

If they were out there setting up mortars or something they could have caused us harm and still not be able to attack that Apache.

IMO this is what needs to be done at night time when the bad guys come out to set up thier mortas. Definately need more Apaches out patroling in the dark out of range of RPGs (or just out of sight) and using thier FLIR to find the people who set them up.

[DoNotRefill]

23. This is a direct result of trying to keep US casualties down.

Getting your people close enough to capture the enemy makes them vulnerable.

Taking a 25mm chaingun to them from a distance makes it a lot harder for them to hurt you.

[...Alltogethernow]

31. I happen to know a little about this

Although disturbing, it should be noted that these Iraqi insurgents had just previously attacked an American convey during nighttime, with small arms fire and RPG's. The men in the image stopped several miles before an American security checkpoint to ditch their weapons used in the attack. Unknown to them, after their attack, American Army aviation forces were tracking their movements using FLIR on three AH64D Apache Longbow attack helicopters.
Further, the American convoy was allegedly carrying medical supplies and sustenance for Iraqi civilians and American support troops in need of them. The convoy was defended minimally and our men suffered injuries in the attack.

Agreed, more should be known before passing judgment.

[Fleshdancer]

10. It looks like a video game n/t

[TeeYiYi]

11. Funny you should mention that . . .

My brother in law who is a major in the Army told me that they train our soldiers with violent video games. No wonder they are able to disassociate with cold blooded murder. They see the Iraqis as targets, not people.

TYY

[TexasMexican]

13. yeah and GTA is worse than molesting 1,000 children...

and playing doom was responsible for the Columbine massacre. :eyes:

[TeeYiYi]

20. Your reply doesn't make sense . . .

. . . I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make.

My post was to point out that our military uses violent video games for training to de-sensitize our soldiers to killing the enemy in a live war situation. Kill or be killed.

What does that have to do with Grand Theft Auto being worse than molesting 1000 children? AS IF ?!

TYY

[TexasMexican]

21. just as asinine.

Thats the kind of stuff that that one quack, Grossman I think his name is, says.

Video games dont make people into murderers.

My previous statement was in refrence to a NYPost article that said that Vice City was worse than child molestation.

http://games.slashdot.org/games/03/12/30/1636209.shtml?tid=127

[tkmorris]

24. Your mind is closed

I beg of you, watch that video again. In it you are seeing what many of our soldiers see. 3 men die in that video but it is frankly less graphic than a ton of video games that are currently on the market.

The line IS being blurred. Video games look more and more like reality while reality tends more and more to look like a FPS. Time and again our soldiers take out out "targets", often they are nothing more to the soldiers who kill them than hotspots on an IR video screen. Trust me, I've been there. To some of these guys the "enemy" they fight is no more real than the aliens in Half Life were.

Don't misunderstand. I am no fan of censorship, whether it be of video games or anything else. I am merely a fan of honesty, and truth. The truth is that to many of the soldiers "in the trenches" so to speak the enemy they fight is not real. This is a normal side-product of advanced weaponry and we simply need to acknowledge the problem and take steps to make sure that those we send into battle understand the humanity of those they fire upon.

This is not a game. They don't get a double score for hitting the little blob on the run. And yet too often the soldiers we send out to fight (and sometimes die) for us do not see that those blobs they are firing upon have families too. They have hopes, and dreams, and little girls that call them Daddy. They are detached from the the pain they bring, and thus desensitized to it. That is a real problem and one that any civilized country would bend heaven and earth to correct.

[TeeYiYi]

32. I wonder if that soldier would have had the same response . . .

. . . to the wounded Iraqi rolling on the ground in pain if he could have seen the the emotion in the man's face? The pain from the bullet spray and the fear of dying without seeing his family again.

The fact that another DUer thought it looked like a video game was pretty telling. Our guys aren't looking through the window of the helicopter, they're fixed on that screen. That black and white screen takes the humanity out of killing.

My posts are solely to address the desensitization of our soldiers. In no way do I applaud censorship when it comes to video games. I intend to buy GTA III at my first opportunity out of curiosity. And I support the idea that people should censor themselves. Not the feds. I guess it depends on who you are, your past experiences and your goals in life as to whether you are influenced by the violence in a game. I'll likely never be in a war situation where it's them or me. And I'm sure as hell not going to be pimpin' it down in the mean streets of Miami in my low-rider with a gun in my waistband lookin' for perps and thugs to waste.

Maybe I've answered my own question. Seeing the face of the 'enemy' doesn't stop street thugs from gunning each other down ...

TYY

[TexasMexican]

34. So what is the answer?

Okay I can understand that.

What is the answer though?

It cant be getting rid of our current weapons system?

Do you propose "sensitivity training" for our soldiers? Should they sit there and ponder for a while about the families, hopes, and dreams of the people that they need to kill?

I have another question, are the people who fire RPGs at helicopters also desenstized. They arent shooting at people after all.

[Magleetis]

12. Pornography plain and simple

Funny that in the good ol US you can't show two people doing it, but you can show real people being blown to bits. The only way I can tolerate what I just saw is the knowledge that karma does exist.

[TexasMexican]

15. Doesnt bother me.

Maybe if it were opening fire on a crowd of innocent civillians or other random people it would be different, but the killing of our enemies doesnt bother me.

[thebigidea]

17. I guess its too much to ask to inquire what these "enemies" did to you...

[TexasMexican]

18. killing American Soldiers...

that and the indiscriminate use of mortars and various bombs which also kill non-combatants aswell.

[Bonobo]

19. I'm kicking this sucker. It shouldn't be so easily overlooked.

Methinks everyone is too numbed to violence. people in Iraq are living this particular reality 24-7, so I think we could all be a little more brave and have a look at where our tax money is going.

:dem:

[tkmorris]

25. They are killing people

that invaded their country and are stealing their resources. People that promise to leave but are setting up a government which will continue the theft. I'd fight too in such a case, wouldn't you?

Look Saddam was NOT a good ruler. No one will argue that. What I will say though is that what he is being replaced with is WORSE. Far worse in fact. There are people in Iraq who are being royally screwed and they know it. People who have already seen their fathers and brothers imprisoned or worse for the crime of simply existing, nothing more. People who have seen their families gunned down in front of their eyes and seen the provisional government turn a blind eye.

Do you blame them for being pissed? Frankly I think they have a better case for being pissed than Thomas Paine ever did.

[RebelOne]

28. Yes, I agree with you.

If the Iraqis invaded our country, I doubt that we would sit back and let them take over.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftchick]

27. they are resistance fighters who ....

want the occupiers out. Look, this is a no win situation for everyone except halliburton and the other contractors and their cronies. We need to bring our soldiers home NOW and let the Iraqis have their country back. I suppose you would not put up a fight if say, France decided to invade and occupy the US? :eyes:

[Cooley Hurd]

26. Just the fact the viewing this video "doesn't bother you..."

...proves the point that other DUers have made in regards to desensitization of violence due to video game use.

That video should be disturbing to every human being, yet you proclaim "doesn't bother me."

Maybe you should step away from the x-box for a few hours a day...

[TexasMexican]

33. nothing to do with video games.

Back in high school my friends and I one summer rented a bunch of those "faces of death" videos.

Even back then I was particularily distrubed by the videos.

[OneTwentyoNine]

30. I saw that on a newsgroup that I participate in....

Bunch of guys on that newsgroup were about to piss their pants with glee from watching us kill people from miles away. SOAB....


David

[MrSlayer]

35. How many threads on this will there be?

This is the second today after several last week. The action was justified, this video clip has been edited for propaganda purposes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1025435

[Deege]

36. I posted this...

...yesterday morning. That's why threads are dated.

[MrSlayer]

37. Ah, I see.

There are just so many of them since last week.