Think it can't happen to you?

[camero]

From $115 per hour down to $9.50.

snip

LARGO - A little over three years ago, Tom Kirscher lost his job as a mainframe software programmer earning $115 an hour.

Today the 57-year-old Largo resident works for Publix as a receiving clerk, making $9.50 an hour.

Kirscher, who has sent out over 250 resumes resulting in two interviews, thinks his dilemma is a sign of the times. But in an economy with thousands of "underemployed" workers, Kirscher is one of the few who has received public criticism.

"The IT job market is fine if you're in Bangalore," said Nashleanas, who knows IT workers in the United States who have turned to trucking, car sales and pizza-making to survive. "The same thing happened to the high-tech market that happened to manufacturing 20 years ago. It's been commoditized and pushed to lower-cost areas like Singapore and India. We're just lucky the people in China and Russia don't speak better English."

more: http://www.sptimes.com/2004/01/14/Business/115_cut_to_950.shtml

This is where the religion of free trade is taking us.

[slackmaster]

1. You're scaring me, man

I'll be laid off of my very lucrative techie job February 6.

[camero]

2. I'm sorry. But people should know

That it can happen to anyone. I'm sorry about your job loss.

[CivilRightsNow]

95. Get thee out of the west..

If that is where you are.

I looked for 2 years.. sent out 967 resumes (Yes, I counted them). I got one interview. Im CCNA, MCSE, A+.. yadda friggin yadda. Im not just paper either, I have real industry experience.

It was unbelievable, my fiance went through the same thing sending out probably twice as many resumes because he was willing to do anything that would give him a chance.

We moved to Dallas in October.. and he started his job Dec 1st, I just started one on Jan 5th. We both make more money here then our last jobs in Cali after the bust.

Good luck! Here are some tips I picked up.

You must stay vigilant, no applying to week old jobs. These people are getting flooded with resumes.

If you are certified or have a shitload of experience that may threaten your potential boss, you may want to have an actual resume and a dumbed down resume. I actually landed my current position by dumbing down my resume significantly.

Get registered at your local Robert Half or Adecco, it cant hurt.

Dont send out resumes at odd hours, like 3 am. I have a friend who works as a technical recruiter and she tells me that is one of the things that makes her not even look at a resume. She works with alot of other recruiters and it is one of their targetted points in the discovery process.

Write customized cover letters dealing with that position. Don't just send a "Hi, here is my resume" letter. It's a pain in the ass, but people want to know what you can bring to their teams specifically.

Above all, keep your head up.. Oh, and file for unemployment :) quickly.

[LeahMira]

176. Please don't be scared.

I'm really sorry to read that, but a lot of people who are laid off manage to land on their feet. Try to pay your bills and try to get everything you can from your current employer, like continuing medical insurance for a few months or whatever you think you might need, and network all over the place. Sometimes people feel embarrassed about being out of work, but don't. Tell all your friends and follow up leads like crazy. Maybe you could teach for a while, or maybe you could help set up systems for companies, or maybe there are other possibilities for you to use your skills but in a different way. I'm not saying that it will be easy, but I am saying that not every story has such a sad outcome as the one posted here.

[slackmaster]

239. Thanks for your kind words

I'm not very worried. I'm just shy of 46 years old and have been surviving economic downturns since 1981. This will be my fifth time on "unenjoyment", and it will be better than most because I have a generous severence package coming. I've already got people calling me about contract work.

:toast:

[KG]

3. of course the first thing some folks might wanna blame the

present junta and the repooks for flight of good jobs to other countries, but the sorry fact is, this stuff has been going on for twenty both and parties are complicit in the passing of laws that make this possible. it only seems lately with, hi-tech, high paying jobs are being outsourced couple with a stumbling economy, does this seem to matter.

and i haven't heard a solid plan from any of the candidates on how they intend to stop the bleeding, either.

[camero]

4. This thing is being ignored

Almost deliberately I would think. The only one who is even talking about it is Kucinich.

[billyskank]

225. Tony Blair said he wasn't concerned

about British IT jobs being outsourced to India and other places. I was startled by the honesty, but I suppose it's only fair; Conservative politicians like he never cared when it was manufacturing jobs being lost, so why should he care more now that it's white-collar jobs leaving?

[redqueen]

5. If anyone thinks their job is safe they'd better wake up.

Even if it can't be exported, cheap labor can be imported.

[camero]

27. Most definitely

[supercrash]

6. Can't happen to me...

I am a carpenter...no outsourcing here..

Of course the economy could crash so bad that I won't be needed, but at least my job will be waiting for me when things turn around

[camero]

11. No but they can insource your job

Mexicans can do construction too.

[solinvictus]

82. Construction

Here in Chattanooga, the vast majority of commercial construction is performed by $7/hour Mexican labor. The local businesses won't enforce INS laws because they love the growing pool of cheap labor. We've also lost a large part of our manufacturing economy as well because of NAFTA.

[redqueen]

55. If memory serves

There's a provision in NAFTA which enables Canadian construction labor to be imported as well.

Checking...

Okay this doesn't say much in detail but does say something... I wonder how easily American construction workers can go into Canada to find jobs.

http://www.grasmick.com/contract.htm


Ouch! It looks like this is a one way street after all!

link

Specialized Knowledge: "After-sales service" must require some form of "specialized knowledge." Note that hands-on building and construction work is not considered to require "specialized knowledge." Building and construction work includes installing, maintaining and repairing: utility services; any part of the fabric of any building or structure; or machinery, equipment or structures within a building. Thus work normally performed by labourers, millwrights, heat and frost insulators, bricklayers, carpenters and joiners, electrical workers, operating engineers, elevator constructors, sheet metal workers, teamsters, boilermakers, painters, bridge, structural and ornamental ironworkers, plumbers, pipefitters, roofers, plasterers and cement masons will not be considered "after-sales services."

[camero]

93. we can't even go where the jobs are

But the mexicans can. That says alot right there.

[PassingFair]

117. Illegal Mexican craftsmen

can swing hammers, too.

[lapauvre]

163. Just get incapacitated

for long enough, and you'll find out it CAN happen, even to
you.  I promise you, it doesn't matter how hard you have
worked in the past, if you fall down, you'll be like the
person disabled beneath the feet of a stampeding herd.  It CAN
happen to anybody.  There is no mercy.

You are probably male, and maybe they'd care more, but for a
single mother, aged fifty, you are eligible for nothing but
contempt, no matter how long you have worked.

[camero]

173. It happened that way with me

Don't get sick in this country. You'll feel like the lady who got trampled trying to buy the DVD player.

[Buffler]

213. To guard against getting sick

or injured one can purchase short and long term disability insurance. It is remarkably cheap for the protection it provides. And unfortunatly it is often overlooked or people think "I won't need it."

[camero]

214. Boy are you a know it all

Do you have magic to get rid of diabetes?

[Buffler]

215. A know it all?

No, that I am not. But I am dead on right about disability insurance and that people far to often fail to get it.

[camero]

216. Yea, I bought that

And my claim was denied because I had a PRE-EXISTING CONDITION. FROM BIRTH. It helps to read the fine print Mr. Know-it-all. Waste of money.

[Buffler]

223. Waste of money?

I don't think so. It is money well spent. It has kept my brother in law from starving. He was doing some home improvements and fell off a ladder, destroying his knee and rendering him unable to walk or work for several months. The disability insurance kept a stream of income coming and he readily admits it is the best money he ever spent.

My wife has also benefited from it. She has had two surgeries that required her to take extensive time off of work. Short term disability insurance provided much needed income.

[camero]

217. So do you like sharing with Halliburton?

Because that is exactly what you are doing.

[Buffler]

221. Halliburton?

My disability insurance with AFLAC is "sharing with Halliburton"?

Sorry, if I am in a car wreck or suffer other serious injury that prevents me from working I will have a source of income while I recover.

[camero]

222. You like to share with the rich but not the poor.

Let em die right? If you just weren't "lucky" enough. I think you're on the wrong forum. Taxation is the governments gun and in a democracy, we the people choose who to share our tax dollars with.

Or don't you understand that.

[Buffler]

224. What the hell does that have to do

with my suggestion that people should purchase disability insurance?

[camero]

226. Never mind

I can see I am dealing with a right winger. I feel very sorry for you to be so much without compassion. You're on my ignore list.

[Buffler]

227. Never mind?

More like you were unable to back up a single thing you said. How is my purchasing disability insurance (and suggesting others do the same) supporting Halliburton, and making me a right winger without compassion?

[redqueen]

231. Here's why

Because health is a necessity, not an option. If you say to people who are earning barely enough to cover both food AND rent from month to month, do you not see the cold heartlessness of saying, 'well you should have spent some money on more insurance!'

Geez.

[CivilRightsNow]

249. That was dizzying...

Wasnt it?

"How is my purchasing disability insurance (and suggesting others do the same) supporting Halliburton, and making me a right winger without compassion?"

I agree with you.. I have no idea how the tip you tried to give got you labeled a right winger.

[FlaGranny]

210. All the constructoin workers I see around here

are "imports." Most speak no English.

[OpenMindedDem]

7. $115 / hour...How many jobs are out there with this salary?

That's about $230K a year. If he saved properly, that should last quite a while.

[One Taste]

8. Thats exactly

what I was thinking.

[camero]

10. Read the article, his wife divorced him

Even that amount can go awful fast.

[meegbear]

12. No tears from me ...

$115 an hour? I've got one thing to say ... "Double bag and pack 'em heavy".

[redqueen]

61. Divide and conquer

Works every time.

[Jim Sagle]

200. Bingo!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

73. Maybe you'll be posting different comments if you lose YOUR job...

...maybe you'll be working in the same grocery chain trying to make ends meet and trying really hard not to lose everything you have.

Before December 2000, $115.00 per hour was pretty much an average rate for people with his skills. Now, his job is gone permanently, along with millions of others in the IT, computer programming and manufacturing fields.

I used to be a recruiter in the IT and computer industries and had clients calling me daily before December 2000. I held on as long as I could, but now I've closed the doors on my business and I'm doing something else, too.

Only one thing I've got to say to you...I bet you never get accused of being compassionate toward others.

[camero]

77. The poor guy is becoming

One of the "educated poor" because of so-called "free trade".

[redqueen]

83. Now you're scaring ME!

Damn, camero!

I'll be thinking about that one right through the CAFTA debates!

[camero]

86. It's not my term

But it is a good one.

[CivilRightsNow]

102. Average billable rate..

and average rate are two different things.

I knew very few people who made that much money for those job skills after the late 90s. It sure wasnt happening alot in this century. That fat was the first to be trimmed.

What is sad to me is that now the lower waged tech workers that stepped in to fill those ridiculously inflated jobs are now getting the boot even though their salaries are realistic.

[CivilRightsNow]

98. Tech bubble bursted.

115 an hour is a ridiculous amount of money for a mainframe programmer to make. Sorry, but 115 an hour is a ridiculous amount of money for most anyone to make.

He should have stopped keeping up with the Jones and consuming his profits.

I made far less then that and managed to save enough money tocarry me through 2 years of unemployment with very little problems.

[camero]

101. And when the other bubbles burst then what?

The salary is not the point. The point is good jobs leaving.

[CivilRightsNow]

116. Totally not the same.

The tech bubble is not the same as any other industry and cannot be equated as such.

Jobs are leaving, yes.. Im not happy about that. But my point is, Im not crying a river over some guy who made 150 bucks an hour. That's how the media keeps the real issue underwraps. Nobody feels sorry for some programmer who made 150 an hour except another programmer who made 150 an hour. It makes us all look like spoiled rotten brats who just dont want to work for a realistic wage.

This article means nothing to me, tech support jobs.. call center jobs.. the average it worker.. that is where the message must be focused.

[camero]

118. One domino falls and so do the others

Some will and have made the connection.

[CivilRightsNow]

124. Some aint gonna cut it..

This must be taken mainstream because it is a mainstream middle america issue.

How can you not see how subversive these articles are?

[camero]

127. There are others

I think it raises the point that noone is immune. There are a whole series of articles on this subject. Yes it is a mainstream issue.

But rethugs are not going to see it until they realize how far you can fall. Which is a very long way.

[apsuman]

179. What message?

What message? The message that you too can have a common skill set and expect a free pass?

AVERAGE. That implies that the bulk of IT workers have the same knowlege base and the same skill set. That also implies that the AVERAGE IT worker is absolutely and easily replaceable because there are a million other guys just like him. During the tech bubble, tons of marginal people ran to IT because IT was The Sure Thing.

The tech bubble 'pop' washed out a bunch of people who rode a crazy ride without perspective. My broker is seeing the same wash-out effect of the down economy in her industry. There are 50% fewer stock brokers today than there were ten years ago.

IT never has been a sure thing. When business is up, they hire. When business is down, they fire and contract. To survive in IT, you have to be aggressive about learning. The churn is tough and not everybody can or wants to keep up. Used to be an Associate's degree was a bonus for a programmer. The bar goes up and up.

[PVnRT]

105. That's nice

Get back to me when you lose your job so that I can mock you, OK?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

84. Most people tend to spend up to the levels of....

whatever they're earning because incentives to save have been traditionally weak throughout most of American History.

Just curious, but why do you think U. S. credit card debt is at the highest level it's ever been? Why do you think bankruptcies and foreclosures are also at historically high levels?

Instead of trashing the guy for the situation he's in, maybe you ought to look at the reasons he, and millions of others have all arrived at the same place for the same reasons.

[Military Brat]

9. Our economy is dying the death of a thousand cuts

Someday the knife will slip and hit an artery ...

[FreakinDJ]

13. The selling off of America

that is what they used to call it. now they have the new and improved term "Out sourcing"

No matter what you call it as long as we can not keep our industries, we are in real trouble

[camero]

14. That is exactly what it is

The Great Sell-Off of America.

[CivilRightsNow]

112. In 2001 90% of IT jobs went to H1B Visa Holders

http://www2.familyinjustice.com:8080/familyinjustice/h1b/H1B_ReportToCongress.html
http://www.insourceamerica.org/
http://www.washtech.org/wt/printer.php?ID_Content=377

Call your Senators and tell them to vote for USA Jobs Protection Act of 2003 (S. 1452, H.R. 2849)
http://dodd.senate.gov/press/Speeches/108_03/0729.htm
http://www.capwiz.com/fair/issues/bills/?bill=4612681

Ask them to also vote for:
Repeal of H-1B Visas for Temporary Workers (Bill # H.R.2688)
http://www.capwiz.com/fair/issues/bills/?bill=2841666

And...
L-1 Visa Reform Act of 2003 (Bill # S.1635)
http://www.capwiz.com/fair/issues/bills/?bill=4615031

We should be flooding their offices with calls. Now, I know what you are saying.. some of these are Republican sponsered bills. Well frankly, I dont give a shit who sponsers them. We need them desperately.

Spread the word!

[camero]

113. Thanks for the links

We should be flooding these guys. The Bushies are selling us out to Mammon.

[CivilRightsNow]

119. NP...

I think outsourcing is a HUGE issue that one of the candidates is gonna have to step up and really face, not just screw around with vague shit while sitting on the board of one of the largest outsourcing aids out there. SIRVA.

Wesley Clark sits on the board there. He also made that nice little comment about how we could let these jobs go to india and focus on new jobs.

Remember that come election time.

[DjTj]

125. The 90% number is inaccurate...

...I don't know what the real number is, but the way that they calculated in the first link was flawed:

According to the American Electronics Association (AeA), 96,700 new jobs in computer IT were created in 2001. Since 163,000 H-1B visas were issued in 2001, and according to the INS 53% of those visas are computer/IT jobs, 86,390 of the jobs in 2001 were taken by H-1Bs.

First off, using data from two different sources (AeA and INS) as the factors in your statistic is extremely susceptible to inaccuracy. Also, H-1B's can be issued to people who are replacing someone else in an existing position (possibly even an H-1B holder that has gone home). Assuming that every H-1B recipient takes a new job is a fallacious assumption.

That being said, I definitely agree that it should be repealed now that there are plenty of Americans who need those jobs. In general, these temporary worker programs are bad for America. We should have an immigration program that leads to citizenship and we should encourage better technical education in America for Americans.

Using sensationalist statistics is not going to convince the moderates in Congress who we'll need to vote on this. The compelling personal stories are much better than made-up statistics.

[CivilRightsNow]

137. ;)

I was just quoting the link .....

[DjTj]

139. :p

I guess I'll have to let them know then...

[camero]

15. Even grocery store jobs are being cut

http://www.sptimes.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/APState.woa/wa/story?id=FL_Kash_n__Karry

Kash n' Karry will close 34 stores in central, eastern and northern Florida and eliminate 1,500 jobs, the Tampa-based grocery store chain said Thursday.

[bloom]

140. we'll all be working at Walmart, that's what.

:(

[camero]

145. How true

and how sad. The state we are being reduced to.

[OhioStateProgressive]

16. nobody deserves 115 and hour

I feel no sympathy

[camero]

17. The salary is not the point

The point is that even good IT jobs are leaving. He even admitted the salary was high.

Don't get too cozy. It could be gone in a heartbeat.

[kymar57]

146. salaries

"I said nothing when they came for the guys making 150k,because it wasn't me"..etc..etc..

[camero]

148. Anybody who doesn't know what they are up to

Should look at the trucking industry. Because they are not bound by the Fair Labor Standards Act. And the HOS(Hours of Service) rules are a joke.

[davekriss]

178. Excellent retort! (n/t)

[TheDalaiMama]

18. Why would it be addressed? You forget this is the USA Inc.

where profits are god.

dalai

[OhioStateProgressive]

22. yes, the new religion of money

it is sad...

but remember, this is the place where a man who spoke of his Dream was murdered, and a man who told us to Imagine and Love was felled as well

[Buffler]

20. Nobody?

I can name quite a few people I would pay well in excess of $115 an hour for their time and expertise. If you can't you are not thinking very hard.

[camero]

23. He got that salary during the Y2K mess.

I can empathize with someone who has been out of work for so long. Even if he did make alot of money.

[OhioStateProgressive]

24. really?

go for it

I don't agree, ahead of time

[Buffler]

29. I guess there are some things

you just don't value.

I would gladly pay well in excess of $115 a hour to a brain surgeon to remove a tumor from my childs brain. And thats just an easy example.

[OhioStateProgressive]

30. Health Care should be free

but yes, you can always extrapolate something out to it's most illogical conclusion to prove a point

[Buffler]

31. Saving my childs life

is illogical?

[OhioStateProgressive]

32. in a discussion of this sort, yes!

you immediately jump to a brain surgeon when the original discussion was about an IT guy's salary...as I said in my post, you can ALWAYS extrapolate a case out to make yourself right

and another thing, this wasn't about how much YOU are willing to pay...it is about how much is FAIR for one person to earn

[camero]

33. this discussion is not about salary

But about the jobs that are going overseas. The salary was there to make the point that noone is safe.

[OhioStateProgressive]

36. i understand, and you are right

but I think you chose a poor vehicle to carry your message...In my opinion you should never see tears spilt for someone who made that kind of money...i think it would have been best had you focused on Manufacturing Jobs that are leaving, hurting middle class, blue collar people

[camero]

40. We've been losing them for a long time

I'm not unsympathetic to someone who has been out of a good job for 3 years. Now even getting a good education is not enough.

Do you think politicians are worth their speaking fees? I don't either but keep your eye on the ball. It's the multi-nationals that are the enemy.

And you can't tell me that you would turn down that salary.

[OhioStateProgressive]

43. well

Im a painter...I paint pictures...I knew when I started my BFA program that I would never earn much money

no, politicians are NOT worth their speaking fees, I was SO disgusted when I learned what Clinton was charging...man of the people my ass

[camero]

47. We're on the same page

I wonder why the freeps can't see this happening to them? I know, they can't see anything...lol

I was hoping to make this about free trade and if it keeps up, there will be no livable wage jobs left.

[OhioStateProgressive]

52. you are right, i shouldn't have hijacked your thread:)

we need to keep the good jobs here, no doubt about it

steel mills, car factories, blocklayers...computer IT guys, software guys...the whole realm...we need all of them

the lack of Union jobs around here is very scary too, children don't get properly raised because both parents have to work overtime to make ends meet

I think in retrospect, i should ahve stayed on topic:)

[camero]

56. It's the unions

That are the yin to the corporate yang.

You're right. That is scary.

[redqueen]

76. Divide and conquer

There it is again. Pay no attention to the top .01%!

:puke:

[OhioStateProgressive]

79. don't worry, we want them too(nt)

[camero]

81. Red, how am I doing divide and conquer?

I am saying the unions are a check on corporate power. Though they haven't been lately because of union busting. And free trade.

[redqueen]

87. NO no no, not you!

Anyone who picks on the middle class for being overpaid! (Sorry I just posted my reply to the last post on this subthread. Shouldn'ta done that.)

Sorry, OSP, but I'm gonna call you on this each and every time I see it.

If we let those at the top divide us near the bottom from each other, we're f$#@&d!

[OhioStateProgressive]

88. don't worry, i will always respond:)

i think you are off base to call 115 an hour middle class:)

[davekriss]

180. I think OSP is presuming too much

There's no doubt $115/hr is a good wage. But I think you assume much. Was the individual in the article a 1099 contractor? The fact that an hourly rate was mentioned suggests he was. Meaning that he might have spent as much time marketing and administrating his services -- which he can't invoice -- as he did earning that hourly rate.

Perhaps he had only 1,000 billable hours a year, the other 1,000 spent in these non-billable activities? Out of that figure he might have had to pay $1,000 a month or more for insurance and expenses. So in the end his $115/hour might equate to a $100,000 a year position, not at all uncommon for senior skills in a number of disciplines in the corporate world.

Making $100,000 a year -- or even $200,000 a year -- does not move one up to the upper echelon of incomes in the U.S. It's still pretty middle (even if upper middle). IIRC, it takes a yearly income of about $140,000 before you've reached the top 10%; and something like $340,000 before you reach the top 1%. So where does the contract consultant billing $115/hour but earning about $100,000 after expenses fit? Great pay, yes; but deserving of our scorn?

What was this person supposed to do? Refuse the rate? Say that, even though his cognitive gifts and inclinations led him to acquire his particular skill set, he should say -- "Naw, don't pay me $115, for the sake of social justice and equality just pay me $15, OK?" He'd be carted out the door by the boys in white suits!

And to those who hold the poor guy in contempt because "he should've saved enough to almost retire". We don't know his circumstances. Perhaps he sends his aging parents money each month so they don't have to eat Alpo, perhaps pays health insurance for his uneducated sister working as a short order cook without benefits -- hey, maybe he has a daughter in psychatric hospitals, not generously covered by many commercial insurance plans and he's getting hit with bills of $40,000 per month (I know someone in just this situation -- yes, they are working Title 19 Medicaid waivers in their state, but so far no luck).

We just don't know. Don't condemn the man; condemn the corporate/capitalist world that distorts pay that yields such disparaties.

We are all working class as long as we are dependent on a check cut in exchange for our daily labor -- be it in front of a computer screen, in front of a canvas dripping paint from a brush, or behind the wheel of a truck. It's not until you can sip mint julips by poolside while your money is earning money for you that you exit the rat race. True, higher earners have more opportunity to accumulate capital -- but a lot can happen to reverse even the best laid plans.

So chill OSP, please?

And the real issue is: Do we want to see the Latin Americanization of America? Continued evolution into a two-tiered society of owning class serviced by its thin sliver of managers and magistrates plus vast volumes of serfs laboring without end, the "cannon fodder" (GHWB) and "useless eaters" (Kissinger) too beaten to refuse any orders from their masters? If this is not what you want for America, then we have to work together to paint another picture.

PS/ So how do you feel about a Basquait, a Twombly, or earlier a DeBuffett getting 6 and 7 figures for their paintings? Would you too feel no compassion for them if through the fickle of fate they too suddenly had to take a job at Publix for $9/hour -- and no longer be able to afford paint?

[OhioStateProgressive]

202. i disagree

only when we succeed in making all well paid people feel guilty for what they have, will they make sure to share with those without

[davekriss]

211. Well now this I kinda agree with

I'm not sure about making others feel guilty -- there are other arguments to be made -- but the top 20% of income earners has galloped ahead of the rest of us these last 30 years and there does seem to be a kinda "I've got mine, so f*ck you" attitude out there.

I'm just not so sure holding to a compassionate-less point of view is the answer. The ends do not justify the means. As a "progressive", we must find progressive means, one's that example and amplify our values -- otherwise I guarantee you we'll get lost along the way.

[Buffler]

219. Top 20% "galloping ahead"

but the top 20% of income earners has galloped ahead of the rest of us these last 30 years and there does seem to be a kinda "I've got mine, so f*ck you" attitude out there.

The top 20% today is not comprised of the people who were in the top 20% 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 30 years ago. There is tremendous movement in and out of the top 20% bracket.

Infact, there is great movement out of the bottom 20% bracket as well. Only @ 5% of those in the bottom 20% bracket 20 years ago are still there today.

[camero]

220. What RW site did you get that stat from?

Link please.

[Buffler]

230. Thought

you had me on ignore?

[davekriss]

233. OK

So only about 5% of the top 20% from 20 years ago are still there too, huh? Not likiely. You sound like Zero Mostel selling shares to Springtime for Hitler in the Producers.

Class mobility is a myth, Buffler. We are no more mobile than our counterparts in the UK, Germany, or France. The difference is that there the top 20% are not at war there with the notion of providing a decent level of social welfare for the bottom 20%.

I'll dig out the annotations after work, but whereas in 1973 something like 23% of children of the bottom 20%-tile advanced into the top 40%-tile, today the number has dropped to 10%. That means 90% of the bottom 20% are stuck there. By virtue of being unlucky enough to be born of parents of meager means. That's America for you, Land of the Mythic Free.

Meanwhile, chew on some of the facts in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=894808

[Buffler]

234. You are dead wrong

Class mobility is a myth, Buffler.

My parents moved up from where they were when they were kids. My wife and I have moved up a great deal from where we were 5 years ago. As have many of our friends.

The real myth is that one can not improve their lot in life.

[redqueen]

237. Consider...

Are you the exception or the rule?

A quick perusal of the big picture - how many families share your fate vs. how many have seen the opposite happen - will show you whether or not your assessment of the situation is correct.

You may like to dismiss the fate of those who do not rise above their station as their own fault and nothing but. However if you do, know this: one day you may come to realize that control over your own fate is largely illusory. I hope that should you come to such a realization it is not due to personal experience with the kind of situation many, many families are finding themselves in.

Seriously, I suggest doing some searching about how many more families are becoming homeless due to the state of our economy. Your belief that if one tries really hard they too can rise is just not true. That is a fairytale belief and it won't be held by many for very long if we continue on our present course as a nation.

[Buffler]

238. Keep on believing

what you believe.

Your belief that if one tries really hard they too can rise is just not true.

I will believe what I believe and have seen over and over throughout my familys history and friends families histories, and throughout American history.

One is not locked into the station they are born into.

Can and will everyone who "works hard" rise up and become a great success? No. But no one who doesn't will.

[davekriss]

247. No one is saying "locked in"

>>One is not locked into the station they are born into.

Can and will everyone who "works hard" rise up and become a great success? No. But no one who doesn't will.<<

No one is saying "locked in". We are saying that those born to parents in the bottom 20% face a stiffer headwind than those born to privilege, and thus the odds of success are lower, and thus statistically most (now 90% -- I know you disagree) remain in the bottom 20% if born to it.

A banker's son has a much easier time becoming a banker than the baker's son for a whole host of reasons. That brings into question whether or not there is an equality of opportunity in America (or anywhere), something we should strive for. No?

And as we've seen, a President's son has a much easier time becoming a pResident. GWB, note, disproves your assertion that those who don't work hard won't succeed. But, then again, maybe you're right: Bush is by far the least successful pResident we have ever had!

[davekriss]

240. Please reread my post

The percentages of movement declined from 23% to 10% over the last 30 years. That means of 1000 kids in 1973 of parents mired in the bottom 20%, 230 are now in the top 40% of income earners; today, only 100 kids make it. There is movement, buffler, but it is NOT as fluid as you seem to claim.

(Yes I will dig up references after work...)

But wait, you forget -- even in the best of times 770 kids remain in the low income segment of their parents! And today that number has swelled to 900! Opportunities for advancement have raced across our borders in the form of manufacturing jobs from the eighties onward, and now any job where close continuous proximity to the business is not necessary.

So good for you and your wife that you were able to "move up" from where you were 5 years ago. Perhaps you're one of the 100 to 230 (we don't know where you started). However, many Americans have an inflated assessment as to where they stand in the income strata -- a recent poll revealed that 19% claimed to be in the top 1%!

[Buffler]

243. I know what quintile we are in

and it is the evil and hated top 20% who need to be "taken down".

And your contention that only 10% of those born into the bottom 20% make it out is absolutely false. Period.

[Buffler]

218. I feel no guilt

for what I have. Not one tiny bit. I have worked hard and so has my wife. My parents sacraficed so that my brother and I would have what we needed and to help us prepare for the future.

My parents both came from poor families whose parents (all 4 of them) worked at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory and have busted hump to become the successes that they have.

While my wife and I have enjoyed relative financial success along with emotional and marital success we know what it is to be poor. I remember saving for several weeks a dollar here and a dollar there to be able to afford a very cheap bottle of wine for us to have with dinner one friday night. I dropped it on the floor and it broke! It was very upsetting.

[camero]

89. That is very true

And it's the top 1% that are scewing us with NAFTA, GATT, FTAA, and the like.

[OhioStateProgressive]

90. i want to go after the top 20%, why limit ourselves?(nt)

[camero]

91. It's the top 5% that has the ownership of society

He is still a worker. And I don't think he would really mind right now having a $50 an hour job.

First we have to get our ownership back, then we can talk about floors and ceilings. I agree, they are desperately needed.

[OhioStateProgressive]

92. true

i still want to "take down" all wealthy people

class warfare is a great thing

[redqueen]

94. That anger, IMO, is blinding you

To the fact that 'wealthy' is a relative term.

To children starving in ethiopia, even a homeless family here is 'wealthy' because at least they have a better chance of finding a meal.

To children who grew up homeless / in poverty, a person earning $35K / yr probably seems 'wealthy'.

We need to focus on those that are really intent on controlling the rest of us. If we let them control us, who benefits?

[OhioStateProgressive]

100. wait a second

I defined wealthy as the top 20%

and, relativism is something I don't adhere to, you can prove any point by making extrapolations , and calling everything relative

[Buffler]

208. Top 20% is wealthy?

You have a very low definition of what constitutes wealthy. Income to be in the top 20% starts at $83,500. That is not wealthy. Infact, it is very easy to have that amount of income and have a NEGATIVE net worth.

And you want to take them down?

You are full of hatred, jealousy, and envy.

[Pithlet]

228. You're right

My family's income is in the top 20% bracket, although towards the low end of it. We do not live in a big fancy home, or drive an SUV. I don't own designer clothes or expensive jewelry. We don't belong to a country club. We don't have tons of descretionary income because of necessary debt (things like house payment, student loans, etc. We have little credit card debt) We donate and volunteer for progressive causes and liberal politics. We are not upper class. We are middle class people. Because of the erosion of quality of life in this country, it takes a lot more than it used to be living high on the hog.

Actually, those posts don't turn me away from progressive causes at all. I have thicker skin than that. And I understand the thoughts behind it. There are a lot of economic injustices in our capitalist society. And I'm all too aware of others in our bracket who give us a bad image. I live in a neighborhood full of them.

[redqueen]

232. You both show why "20%" is a bad measure

This is why they use it, too.

I need to find the breakdown of profits from bush's tax giveaway by percentage. It's very enlightening.

The benefit increases exponentially the more finely you define the brackets.

[mitchum]

170. No, we also need to focus on those who haul big rocks for the phaoroh

[camero]

96. and we will win

we have the numbers. We just have to realize that noone is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. Together.

[Buffler]

34. what you said

you immediately jump to a brain surgeon when the original discussion was about an IT guy's salary

you said nobody was worth $115 a hour. Clearly some people are.

Is Clinton not worth several hundred thousand dollars a hour when he is brought in to various events?

and another thing, this wasn't about how much YOU are willing to pay...it is about how much is FAIR for one person to earn

What is fair earnings for various jobs? Would love to see your list.

On edit: I am off to see David Copperfield. Will respond to you later. And Copperfield is worth well in excess of $115 an hour! Under your "Fair Earnings Schedule" what would you limit Copperfield's income at?

[OhioStateProgressive]

38. disagreement

I think nobody should be allowed to earn more than ten times the average wage

it's part of the SPUSA's platform, and I believe it to be correct


as to the rest, I told you what you were arguing was an extrapolation to a logical case, it still is

[Buffler]

42. Sorry, I disagree

I believe in freedom, not socialism. You can fight for your failed ideas. I will fight for freedom.

I should be able to earn what my skills will bring me and what customers are willing to pay for my services. Be it $10,000 a year or $50 million a year.

[camero]

44. I agree with Ohio on this

But it is another thread.

[OhioStateProgressive]

45. I also believe in being correct

you gather...I will share...we will see who makes the world better for it

[Buffler]

50. Share all you like

I share a great deal my self. I also prefer to do it of my own choosing. Not at the end of the governments gun.

[camero]

53. Taxation is the government's gun

Where we spend it is our choice in a democracy. So we choose who to share with. Do you think Halliburton is worth sharing with?

[davekriss]

236. Yeah but...

The rest of us should be free to decide what the rules of the game are in which we collectively excercise our freedom. And that might impinge on your ability to contract with some smokey board room to make $50 million a year. Tough.

Where the law of the majority ceases to be acknowledged, there government ends; the law of the strongest takes its place, and life and property are his who can take them.
---Thomas Jefferson, to Annapolis Citizens, 1809.

I side with the law of the majority and exercise of our democratic will across the spectrum of our interactions -- respectful, of course, of certain already described "inalienable rights". I fight the withdrawal of the democratic will, which cedes power to "the law of the strongest" -- to the already advantaged. I want to see a genuine equality of opportunity, not a conservative maintenance of the so called "status quo" that has seen a return to distributions of wealth not seen since the Guilded Age.

In a society that collectively taxes its citizens to build roads; builds telecommunications and information highways (recall that the internet was born out of DARPA research); that constructs and staffs schools and colleges; that provide subsidies for R&D that add to our technical prowess in a multitude of disciplines -- in such a society the public has some claim over how value is distributed.

The Libertarian ideal errs when it encourages privatization of profits while yet allowing socializing of key costs.

[redqueen]

80. Average wage?

Is the average wage $10 / hour?

Why not raise the lowest wages, so that the average goes up?

What's that? We can't? Why's that? Oh yeah! It's because the top guys are raking in hundreds of times what the average worker earns.

Focus.

[OhioStateProgressive]

85. yes

this is why a limit of earning 10x over the average wage would work

it would keep those people from being able to earn hundreds of times over the average wage

[redqueen]

97. Yes, but my point was

let's not take down those earning a little more than us.

Let's address the real problem, which is the nearly unprecedented concentration of wealth in the top 2%.

Breaking incomes up in quinties makes absolutely NO sense when the concentration is revealted as exponentially greater when you divide the groups into smaller and smaller groups.

[OhioStateProgressive]

103. i just disagree

i don't mean to keep arguing with you, I like everything you have to say...I'm just a bit more of a Socialist than you, its all good:)

I maintain that taking down the top 20% with heavy taxes...and a limit of earnings to 10x the average wage, you will get rid of the ones who do all the controlling

[Buffler]

212. Take them down?

I maintain that taking down the top 20% with heavy taxes

What % of someones income earning $83,500 should the federal government take?

And if I am earning $82,000 why in the world would I want to better my skill set and marketability, or expand my business if doing so will put me in the hated top 20% and thus a target to be taken down?

[OhioStateProgressive]

241. when children aren't starving people can worry about taxes(nt)

[Buffler]

244. How about an answer

How about some direct answers to direct questions.

[OhioStateProgressive]

248. taxed heavy, there is an answer(nt)

[Pithlet]

245. I don't know about taking them down

But I do know that our tax burden now that we're in an upper bracket, relatively speaking, is nowhere near what it was when I was and out on my own, and made very little. Thankfully, I didn't have kids at the time, or I don't know how we would have lived.

[mitchum]

172. Funniest post of the day!

David Copperfield is worth well in excess of $115 an hour!

That was a joke, wasn't it?

[Buffler]

209. He is worth far more

If you wanted to bring Copperfiled in to perform at a party you where having, or if your company wanted to bring him in for the company party do you think he would command far more than $115 an hour?

Of course he would, and people line up to pay it.

His show last night was great too.

I am a magician myself. An amateur who does it for a hobby and some income on the side. Even little ol me can command more than $100 a hour for corporate and private events. Don't do enough of them to make a living at it. But maybe one day.

[mars_clover]

70. a fair wage?

...it is about how much is FAIR for one person to earn...

Just how do you decide what a "fair" wage is? Things, including yourself, are worth whatever you can sell them for. I'll sell my services to the highest bidder. I'm certainly not going to tell an employer, "Gee, sorry, but I just can't accept that large a paycheck. Let me give some of it back."

Let's face it. Jobs are leaving, man. Pretty soon minimum wage is going to be the norm. Which would be all right if we didn't have mortgages and car loans.

We need a president that can keep the jobs here.

Clover

[OhioStateProgressive]

72. i believe in legislative controls over wage

a cap of 10x over the average wage

the market economy is the ruination of true human values

the moral economy, of a fair price, not what you can get, should be IMPOSED

[auburnblu]

193. Babs, Arnie and Ted Turner will hate you for sure

You relize that pretty much the elite on both sides won't go for that. Do you think the millionaires in the House and Senate will go for that, don't forget most Democrats in Washington aren't exactly poor. And does this apply to speeches, royalties, pro-sports, musicians. Willie Nelson may love Dennis K now, but that guy has spent a lot of dough in life and I can't imagine he would be too thrilled with the 10X game plan.

[OhioStateProgressive]

203. i don't care what the elite want

the goal is getting rid of the elite in the first place

[PVnRT]

107. Who decides what is fair?

Do you get to? Who does?

Isn't what someone is willing to pay fair in and of itself?

[OhioStateProgressive]

108. no

I don't believe we can leave things like that to the people, or they will charge as much as they can get for it...you may call that fair, but I don't

fair is what is fair for the consumer to spend, not the purveyer to sell it for

[PVnRT]

115. Once again, how do you determine what is fair?

You have yet to answer that question.

[OhioStateProgressive]

121. government(nt)

[Buffler]

41. Free Healthcare

You say healthcare should be free. Fine. But the brain surgeon is still going to demand a salary. What "should" a brain surgeon earn in your world?

[OhioStateProgressive]

54. whatever the Department of Health and Human services say(nt)

[bloom]

141. Just because I believe in everyone having access

to health care does not mean Doctors work for free.

What are you talking about????

[OhioStateProgressive]

142. I don't believe doctors should work for free

but I don't believe people should have to pay for health care

[okieinpain]

35. sure they do. I know some folks that deserve that much.

[FreakinDJ]

49. Actually they do

$115 an hour most likely was the wage of an independent contractor.

Engineering fees here on average run $130 per hour. The independent contractor is a way employeers get out of paying any sort of benifits at all. The employer is not responcible for any thing not even with holding taxes

So yes $115 an hour for some one of that skill level is an appropriate wage

[haele]

138. C'mon, you know nothing of how someone like that actually works -

Most people I know who make over $50 an hour do so only working 12, perhaps 20 hours a week that can be charged. In other words, they're contractors. I know an IT guy who charged about that much in the early '90's for his skills - he was partially disabled and worked an average of 10 hours a week on commissions - and lived with his mother because he was saving what he could to eventually survive living on his own. And his case was not unique; he actually under-bid his charges so that he could get more work than most other area contractors with his training and experiance - even if his "employers" could get the added bonus of hiring a contractor listed under the ADA lists. From what I understand lately, he's still living with in his mother's house, his work has almost dried up, and he's cut his charges to around half of what he used to just to keep working in his field.

The point I have is this - if the guy in this article was working hourly non-exempt 40 hours a week for a company at that level he wouldn't be making that sort of money, chances are, he'd be talking about a salery of just over $100K and be putting a good third of that money into pre-tax company medical and retirement benefits.

When someone is self-employed or owns a small business, out of that much money, a good half to two-thirds of it goes to taxes and self-employment fees, health care, hopefully some sort of retirement plan - as well as operating expenses. Things like gas for commuting to the job site, an up to date workstation and communications network, office supplies, tax/financial support, advertising, etc, etc, etc. All that adds up.

So, from what I see about the guy in this article, you can probably continue to "not feel sorry" for a guy that probably actually sees a net of maybe $1K - $3K a week, depending on his work load that week. Yeah, it's quite extravigant living compared to the average US job of $14 an hour on a 40 hour week (average take home for a family of 4 with pre-tax benefits taken out, around $500 - $600 a week), but still, not as much as one would assume the difference between his salery and "yours".

Try keeping your own business some time, and you'll see what I mean. I tried to start up a graphic arts/tech writing business with only a little $2K in seed money and exsisting state of the art equipment on hand - and the overhead needed, fees, legal and accounting commissions as well as all the other expenses (supplies, advertising) were like to bankrupt me the first six months.

On edit - at that time, I was charging $50 - $75 an hour to what few customers I had - a fair charge considering what my outlay and time was worth - and still fighting the competition who were charging the same or more for more than on average 6 hours of work a week. Around $100 an hour, I would have broke even or perhaps even managed a bit of profit.

Haele

[CivilRightsNow]

250. Sounds like you and he needed a good accountant then..

And a business plan.

Ive been running my own business since the unemployment dried up until recently. I paid not a cent in in taxes this year. We made enough to bring on contract employees of our own. We started with nada but supplies.

Ive worked contract during the boom and after the boom and with proper accounting and writeoffs I made a great deal more then what I made working a salaried position for the man after the huge chunk they took for taxes.

However, if you are older I could see how healthcare could be a killer.. But it's all about building those costs into your projects.

His wages are in no way cut from 230-250K a year at that rate to 100K a year cause he is a contractor.

These are all moot points anyway.. but this thread is getting ridiculous.

[mike1963]

165. Some people think I deserve it, for operating a 4 million dollar airplane

carrying families, children, sometimes pets and so forth.

[auburnblu]

192. What about Barbara Striesand or CMB or Arnie

What about Babs, man how much does she make per concert. Didn't Glaxo paid CMB 20,000 for a speech, was that desreved. We know how much Arnie makes, its insane? What about George Soros, a lot of folks love him, does he deserve his dough?

[bluestateguy]

19. Oh come on

American workers will just have to work harder, longer hours, with less benefits and for less pay to compete in the global economy. Gee, how can you be so selfish. :eyes:

[the populist]

21. But see, this is why you should vote for Gephardt.

Dean supported NAFTA and called it a good thing as recently as last March. Dean IS the establishment candidate - the corporate establishment that is. As Gephardt said in his great speech yesterday, "You can't say you're against George Bush if you don't stand side by side with the AMERICAN WORKER."

Amen.

[camero]

25. Not GD 04

But Kucinich also wants NAFTA gone.

[the populist]

37. But Kucinich has no chance

of winning the primary, much less the election. Moreover, the manufacturing unions usually endorse Gephardt, seldom Dean, much less Kucinich.

The dominant workers' candidate needs as many votes as possible.

Your job may depend on it.

[OhioStateProgressive]

39. well

i guess if workers don't vote for Kucinich, they won't guarantee protections for themselves

[the populist]

46. Why would workers waste their vote

on Kucinich when we have Gephardt who desperately needs them.

The Fascists are ecstatic when we become divided.

[OhioStateProgressive]

48. I disagree

only a vote for Kucinich is a vote to change the system

will Gephardt stop NAFTA the day he is office?

[Buffler]

57. How will Dennis

stop NAFTA on the day he is inagurated (which will never, ever happen)? Seriously? Is there a clause in the NAFTA treaty that would allow for a presidential executive order to remove the United States from the treaty? And even executive orders do not go into effect the second the pen hits the paper.

[OhioStateProgressive]

59. well

yes, it does have those clauses for removal...but more importantly...we are a sovereign nation, we can do whatever we want...Bush has proved this...instead of making war with this power, we can use it to promote humanity, and environmental standards...we just do it

[camero]

62. Bush got out of Kyoto by that exact method

Why wouldn't someone else get out of NAFTA the same way? Or at least stall for a better deal for us.

[the populist]

65. because the big corps and the neocon likudniks run our government n/t

[camero]

68. There is nothing stopping

A president from backing out on a treaty. It has already been proven.

I think we should have an extra tax on the multinationals but that is also another story.

[stopthegop]

131. no...The Senate never ratified Kyoto..

and said they wouldn't .... we were never in it ...

[camero]

132. The START treaties?

another one. What other treaties did Bush back us out of? But not NAFTA? They could most certainly do that. Without the US, because we are one of the largest importers of goods, these treaties are nothing more than the paper they are written on.

[stopthegop]

133. a president could probably get us out of NAFTA..

I was just pointing out Bush didn't pull us out of Kyoto...

[camero]

134. You're right. I stand corrected.

If I remember it was the repub Congress of '94 that kept us from signing Kyoto.

[stopthegop]

135. Senate actually...

voted something like 97-0 they would not ratify it...hard to pin on repubs...

[camero]

136. Yeah true

They were all sleeping in the same bed. And are still.

[Buffler]

206. Bush did not get us out of Kyoto

The United States Senate NEVER ratified Kyoto and infact voted 95-0 against considering Kyoto. You can not "get out of" something you have never been in.

[camero]

207. look above

I was already corrected on that. There is still nothing stopping a president from getting us out of a treaty. Does the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ring a bell?

[the populist]

63. Yeah and people said the same thing about Nader. Has anything changed? n/t

[camero]

51. Kuch is Fascist?

That's a new one to me.

[the populist]

60. That's flamebait as I never said that n/t

[camero]

64. This is not a candidate thread

So stop hijacking it. Stick to the topic.

[the populist]

67. I'm not hijiacking anything

I'm participating in an internet forum where free speech is encouraged.

I think some issues are interconnected, and the election can be tied into the trade issue.

Tough luck.

[camero]

69. If you want to talk about candidates go to GD '04

There is a forum for that. Go there. But if you want to talk about free trade and its effects and what to do about it. Then stay here.

[the populist]

74. I don't have the post count.

There are new requirements for posting at GD2004. I think you're being quite rude to me.

[camero]

75. then wait

The rules are there for a reason.

[OhioStateProgressive]

78. it is a crappy rule, even Skinner said so

I am pretty sure we are still allowed to discuss candidates in "politics and campaigns"

hell, i wish i could lend you some of my posts so you could post there, it does seem to be a bit of a limitation to well intentioned people

[eridani]

235. Gephardt may have voted against NAFTA

But he supported H-1b. Also, employment based health care is stupid.

[shanti]

26. i wonder if this has ANYTHING to do

with his age...i remember when my father lost his job at age 53 or 54. he never went back to work after that.

[camero]

28. It's possible

Even though it didn't go into to that. I think the point of the article was even good jobs which would make you a little wealthy are being placed at the altar of corporate profits.

I know mainframe programmers are a rare breed.

[FreakinDJ]

58. $115 for a Mainframe programer is a fair wage

He was most likely an independent contract employee. The employer had no financial liability at all, not even respocncible for with holding taxes.

In 1995 $130 was an average rate for an engineer in SF bay area

So the fact our high tech jobs are being exported at an alarming rate is very valid. Soon we will be a nation of Walmart janitors at this rate

[Mairead]

99. I was thinking the same thing -- there aren't that many of them

left who are writing for the big boxes. It's like Pascal or Fortran progs -- where do you find them?

[Auntie Bush]

66. Yeah, and they are studing English now. What's the future? n/t

[camero]

71. Scary, isn't it?

:scared:

[PVnRT]

104. Hey, it happened to me

Two years ago, I was making 50 large a year working up at Pharmacia.

Within two months, I was doing landscaping at $6 and hour.

God bless George Bush.

[camero]

106. I know. He sucks doesn't he.

We've been sold down the river.

[Pithlet]

109. My husband works in IT

This scares me to death. So far we have been extremely lucky. Every time I hear stories like this I feel so horrible. I feel horrible when I hear about anyone losing their job.

Regardless of how much someone makes, if they make it working, they are more vulnerable. Those who are independently wealthy, and make it on investments are sitting pretty while the working stiffs are, or will be, suffering. It's despicable.

[ZiNE]

128. Welcome to the IT field

Seriously this field changes so much, the odds of your husband doing to same job in 20 years is slim to nil. Scared to death? yeah it's my field too so yeah it's always in the back of my mind. the only way to survive tho is to adapt.. continue your education.. get those new certs... yeah i feel a little bad for the guy who lost his job.. hell.. back when he started they were using punchcards. hopefully for all he was making, he invested wisely.

[apsuman]

110. three thoughts

I didn't read the article. But here goes anyway.

I have two basic thoughts. He should move. I went to Monster typed in Mainframe and selected all states and all occupations, I returned 1346 listings.

Second, you can't let your skillset rest anymore. You are responsible for making yourself employed.

Third, the standard of living keeps going up in this country. It did so when manufacturing jobs were on the wane, it went up when the tech bubble burst. It is going up now. It is going up because our economy keeps growing.

[camero]

111. The poverty rate is now 20%

So tell me how our standard of living is rising again.

[PVnRT]

114. You make it sound so easy

Lose your job, so move!

Sorry, but it ain't that easy. Moving requires money, it requires time. If you're lucky and the company that hires you is willing to pay relocation costs, you might make it. Otherwise, how are you supposed to move.

You can't let your skillset rest. I agree. Yet most companies are slashing training budgets and don't like letting employees going to things like professional conferences. And if you're not making a lot of extra money, how do you afford to travel to things like that or take some classes at a local college? You can't.

Our economy is growing? Sorry that you're buying into Bush's lies. How is it growing? Because people are getting jobs where they are underemployed? Sorry, I don't buy it. Real wages for average Americans have declined since the 1970's - the only "growth" has been in a relatively small sector of skilled workers.

[apsuman]

167. Look, if you have been off work for two years...

Moving should be considered an option.

OR,

Take some classes at a local college. Pell grants if you really are broke, loans if you are not.

OR, while at your day job, buy a copy of Learn Java in 21 days, and program for recreation on your weekends and nights.

If this guy was good enough to charge $115 as an indy contractor, then a)learning a new language, or two, or three would be REALLY easy for him to do, and b) he ought to be completely hirable as the head mainframe guy at lots of places, IF HE WOULD MOVE.

[camero]

168. Ah the key to prosperity

Learn Java in 21 days. :eyes: Til those jobs are packed off.

[apsuman]

171. Trying to make a point

Look, All I was trying to do is make a point. Just like the guys that made horse whips lost their jobs to the guys that made cars, so goes IT. If you have a lot of experience in one thing, presumably programming mainframes, either go to where those 1346 mainframe jobs are or add to your skillset so that you can go to one of those jobs that is near you.

If you only know FORTRAN, guess what, jobs are gonna be real scarce for you, wether Bangalore is cometeting or not. The good news is that if you are a really really good FORTRAN programmer, let's say you are 57 years old and command a contractor price of $115/hour, then learning a new language outght to be pretty easy for you. I dare say that if you ever worth $115/hour then you ought to be able to get a job supervising the actual programmers.

Oh, check monster.com again, 1369 Mainframe jobs.

[camero]

174. It's not that easy

And I would think you have to know more than one language to be a mainframe programmer.

Way off target from the intent of the post. And manufacturing has been lost to what? Sure he could have moved. Away from his kids.

With a $3500 a month alimony payment to make. Uncontrolled capitalism does more to destroy the family than other things ever could.

I would be hard pressed to move if it meant not seeing my kids.

[apsuman]

182. I would agree if his kids were young.

First, I would not want to move from my kids either, but by the time my kids are 24 and 32 (or whatever) I would expect them to have moved away from ME.

I read the article and now I really feel ZERO sympathy for this jerk.

Look, everything wrong with this guy is his fault.

He has no degree.

He only ever worked on one software platform, life/70.

He only ever worked on MAINFRAMES. The whole world jumped to PCs about 2 decades ago.

He ran out on his wife. His $3500 a month is his fault, sounds like a really bad divorce proceeding, hey maybe if he had not ran out one his wife...

He cashed his retirement to pay off the mortage on his house. The article made it sound like this was yet one more really rash and hurried decision that he made in his life.

But let's make sure we have this straight, he owns one house. He and his wife own a condo that is being rented and generating $200 a month in profit.

He won't move from Tampa.

He sent out un-solicited resumes. And Cold calls, let's not forget the cold calls.



He was an independent contractor. Let's break down his pay - $115 less 15% for fica, less 35% for federal taxes. Florida has no income tax. So he gets to keep 50%, of which he has to pay for health insurance, that is the biggest benefit I get from my employer. But, and this is a big one, as an indy contractor, he gets loads of deductions that he gets to take off the top PRETAX. Like the cost and expense of a car, TRAINING, books, supplies, TRAINING, College classes, that "learn java in 21 days" book. So $115/hour times the number of hours less expenses, less 50%. Since he worked for 17 years at this stuff, I would assume that he was working 40 hours a week. So a net of $50/hour times 40 hours, $2000 net. A week. Even if he were to only be paid half of that in those pre y2k days a net of $1000 week is like workng for an employer as a single person grossing something like $75-$80 kilobucks.

If we ignore the alimony for just a moment. A pay of $10/hour (let's round) with a paid for car and a paid for house, negligible federal taxes (did I mention that Florida has not state income tax). All he has to pay for is food and car insurance.

To put is shortly, this guy is an idiot.

And for all of those that says this can happen to you I have this to say. My job could be outsourced. My job could move to Bangalore. THAT could happen. What happened here is that this man was a stark raving idiot. And that can only happen to you if you let it.

To repeat. Everyone worried about jobs going overseas, keep worrying you have a real worry there. For everyone that thinks that I have a job in IT today I might be a shipping clerk tomorrow, heed these words:"don't be an idiot" More specifically, in 17 years, get a degree (maybe more than one), learn more than one software package, learn more than one hardware platform, don't leave you wife of 23 years, don't make rash decision about when to cash in your retirement, don't be afraid to leave the city limits of Tampa, don't send out cold letters, don't cold call -- use monster.com jobsearch.org, careerbulder.com, hotjobs.com, jobvertise.com, topechelon.com.

[apsuman]

183. Wait... there's more...

I googled Tom Kirscher, here is what I found...

http://www.largo.com/Commission_agendas/minutes/jun_6_2000.html

"2. Tom Kirscher, 700 Starkey Road, #1524, stated that the residents of Forestbrook had a severe problem with golf balls from the adjacent golf course damaging windows and cars. He stated that he spoke with the manager of the golf course and would like something done about the problem."

Now, it might be a different Tom Kirsher in Largo Florida, but the one I found lives on a golf course.

[camero]

185. That's an awful lot of digging over one thread.

Did I mess up the world view?

[apsuman]

187. No.

My DSL is still new. $50/month

CTRL-N,
google.com,
cup paste Tom whats his name,
2 entries, both him. Free

Looking up the value of condos in his building. Priceless.

[camero]

189. You never answered my first question.

Where is this "rising standard of living" that you speak of? Because since 1973 wages have gone down. Free trade is not free. But it's us lowly serfs who pay the bill.

[camero]

184. alot of assuming there

I get the rest of the story but 1099 contracters also have to pay unemployment and workman's comp insurance. Florida does have a corporate income tax which he may have had to pay if he incorporated.

We keep harping on the $115 an hour out of envy while being blind to what is actually happening. The degrees won't help when all the good jobs are gone. Should we all just move to the third world so we can work for cents on the hour?

Worrying does nothing. What can we do?

[apsuman]

186. The bar has gone up.

Read post 179, basically, the bar has gone up.

I am not harping on the $115. He is an idiot.

He was probably one of 8 people the knew the innards of that really crappy software platform at is 40 years old, that's why he made as much as he did.

His job did not go overseas. His job went the same place as carriage makers'. His job was not outsourced, he was outsourcing. He rode the gravy train all the way to obsolescence.

If you want to restart this thread when you have an example of a person that really has lost their job because the MAN has sent it to India, please do. I am sure there is no shortage of such people. Before we complained about jobs going to India, we complained about this guy. He was the outsource. Remeber the days when we hated these people? He worked right next to a young guy that was making $30K who was pissed that the old geezer in the next cube got the megabucks and had no benefits.

This article is not an example of jobs going to India. It is an example of a really really stubborn idiot of a man.

Oh, and just to put the icing on the cake, condos where this guy lives gor for $170K, and his is paid for.

[camero]

188. What you are not getting

There are the controllers and the controlled. You work for a boss or you are the boss. If this guy goes, then you surely could go too.

And it doesn't matter about your education, planning or anything.

This article is an example of a government who has prayed to the manna of corporate profits.

His lifestyle has nothing to do with market forces as we call them.

I don't know how many times I've heard someone say to someone else to "get an education", or "save your money". Pick yourself up by your bootstraps. Well, it's kind of hard to do that when they TAKE YOUR BOOTSTRAPS.

[apsuman]

190. I am not disagreeing with you...

Look the sun COULD blow up tomorrow.

This guy had no degree, no skills beyond life/70 on a mainframe (and what are you willing to bet that it is a ibm 370), ran out on his wife (his words not mine), won't move from Tampa. This man set himself up to fail. There are soooo many things this guy could have done, could still do but won't.

Look if this were a 43 year old man with two kids, trying to find any job that is close to his area that he had a master's degree in, and he could not find work, then I would be empathizing with you. But, this ain't it. I'm not saying you're wrong - I'm saying this guy is an idiot, and putting forth this article does a real disservice on the "Your job could disappear tomorrow" idea.

[camero]

191. The guy's an idiot. So what.

That's not for me to judge. Some can see past all that and see the real deal. He lost his job not because of bad performance but because it got moved to India.

Now if you can't see that.

[apsuman]

194. The writer was trying to make your point but picked the wrong guy.

He didn't lose his job to India, to quote:

"...people like Kirscher, who specialized in software used on giant corporate mainframes, found demand for their skills dwindling as companies shifted to doing more work on personal computers and via the Internet. More software programs were leased, rather than sold, eliminating the need to have employees on staff to make modifications and do maintenance. In Kirscher's case, many insurers abandoned the software package he had specialized in for newer programs more suitable for PCs."

To be clear, he didn't lost his job to India. He did not lose his job to bad performance. He lost his job because he failed to prepare for the day when the wht world quit using mainframes.

He job went the way of the carriage makers'.

Again, if you want to actually find an article about a competent IT professional that lost his/her job because the MAN sent it to India, and they can not find work, I will empathize with you. This article, this man is an idiot. That's why he doesn't have a job.

[camero]

195. There are plenty of those stories right here.

Go through the whole thread.

[apsuman]

196. I have not gone through the whole thread....

Gotten to wage controls, the 10X rule, that Kuchinch (sp) is a fascist?, babs makes a lot of money, nervous nervous wife, the niece's biological dad that went from IT - to a failed self start consultant - to fast food, and one ONE person that posted in the subject that it happened to them.

In the one thread the person is going back to school (gasp) and going to try another career track.

[camero]

197. So where is this rising standard of living at?

I would like to see it. And I didn't ask you to empathize with me.
I'm in much worse shape than that guy is. But I can see the point.

[camero]

198. I was holding this one back

This is what's coming down the pike.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1384

Won't be much use for humans now will there?

[Buns_of_Fire]

199. Failing to prepare

Yes, I was a mainframe programmer. The whole gamut -- operating systems, application programming, package modification, analysis, you name it. A dinosaur, by today's standards.

I DID see it coming. And I did every damned thing I could to prepare for it. Learning new languages, new ways of doing things, even new paradigms (as my weenie "manager" liked to say over and over).

My former company (a large, albeit slutty, banking institution headquartered in Atlanta, who I noticed is listed in Lou Dobbs' scroll of corporations who are hot to trot in their outsourcing to other countries) wouldn't allow me to work with any "new" technology. "We need you working with our 'legacy' applications. You're more important to us there." I even TRIED to convince them to start thinking about "porting" their applications to the new technology. "We're looking into it," they said.

I tried to transfer to sections where new technology was being examined. "You're a mainframe programmer," they said. "We need you there." "But I know this and this and this now. My evaluations have always been good. Why...?" "We need you where you are," they said. End of discussion.

Well, the day finally came when "where I was" was no longer needed. And neither was I. Especially since I'd advanced to a senior Programmer/Analyst level, with the whopping salary of about $45,000 a year. "Thanks, and don't let the door hit you on the way out."

So I went back and studied more of the Languages du Jour listed in the classified section of the newspaper. Yesterday, Visual Basic. Today, Powerbuilder. Advanced HTML, XL, TCP/IP protocols, Java, C+++++++++, GutRipper v3.45459, all the trendy stuff. And I sent out resumes. GOD, did I send out resumes.

And the usual response? "Oh, you've worked with mainframes. We have nothing for mainframes, and our PC- and Web-based development is now based in Bangalore. Your application will be kept on file for six months. We'll contact you if anything in your area of expertise develops."

So now I'm out of IT, probably for good. But it can never be said that I, personally, "failed to prepare" for whatever was coming.

[davekriss]

246. 1369 mainframe jobs

Gartner/Meta Group/Forrester forecast that IT will contract in the U.S. between 10% to 15% by the end of 2005. Consumption of IT services, meanwhile, will remain flat or grow higher. How can this be? The 10% to 15% will be offshored. Somewhere else I read that the number of "programmers" (just one of many categories of employees within IT) will shrink from its current number of 890,000 or thereabouts to around 660,000 in the same time frame. Those 200,000+ unemployed programmers will simply not find another IT job no matter how much training they pursue. There's no more room on the lifeboat.

So you keep quoting those "1300+" jobs on Monster. Then go talk to a recruiter: They're receiving 200 to 500 resumes per opening! And what's worse is the displaced are now also competing against L1 VISA's, which are infinitely more destructive than H1B. The displaced American IT worker hasn't got a chance!

Now, if the displaced-by-policy up and moved to Mumbai or Bangladore (as if that were possible!) they could compete for the jobs they lost here -- but at a much reduced standard of living. That's the point, offshoring results in a much reduced standard of living for a whole swath of our fellow citizens. They'll sell real estate, pack groceries, pump gas -- and a very few will start new businesses or new careers and match their past success -- but the net is a large portion of value creation will have been transferred from the hands of American workers into the hands of foreign workers who claim less from that creation, and thus a greater portion of the value created will flow to the owning class.

Great times for the top 10 percenters (who in 1998 owned 78.7% of all stocks)!

So save your Horatio Alger stories for someone who still believes in Santa Klaus. This is not the invisible hand of some Adam Smithian utopia lifting all boats, it is the destruction of expectations, dreams, and lives of a great many of your fellow citizens. It's Class War!

(And beware the multiplier effect, those of you smug in your current jobs!)

[TXDemGal]

120. It can definitely happen, to any of us

My niece's biological dad, currently located in Charlotte (NC), has been working in fast food after 1) being laid off from an IT job in Atlanta in 2001 or '02 and 2) attempting unsuccessfully to start his own franchise consulting business. He's in his early 50s and basically has moved from the middle to the working class in less than 5 years.

This is what the Rethugs want. They want a captive wage earning class, the more captive and desperate the better.

[redqueen]

122. Very well put

desperate = easily manipulated

[camero]

123. Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner.

This is what the Rethugs want. They want a captive wage earning class, the more captive and desperate the better.

This is exactly what they want.

[rman]

201. lots of well educated folks becoming worker class:

will unite middle class and worker class,
will be the corporatists own undoing.

[trackfan]

126. Well it couldn't EXACTLY happen to me because

if my pay were cut by the same percentage I'd be making WAY less than the minimum wage. Of course, if they got rid of the minimum wage, which many right-wingers want to do, I guess it could happen.

[camero]

130. They are doing the best they can to make us slaves.

[DS1]

129. It wasn't that drastic, but damn right it happens, I can vouch!

.

[classics]

143. Dont be so envious of that $115/hr

Its probably a consulting rate, which means after paying all his own taxes, health insurance, etc, hes down to about $60/hr. Even then he probably only rarely billed enough hours at that rate to make 40 hours a week.

If hes living in one of the areas like SF or NY that normal people cant really afford to live in anymore, that $60/hr is more like $25/hr in a normal city.

[camero]

144. I feel bad for him actually

Someone with that kind of an education being pretty much forced to work for poverty level wages. None of us should have to do that.

[OhioStateProgressive]

147. hmmmmm

teachers with Masters Degrees earn about 35,000 a year

BFA's earn about 350 a week...trust me, I know:)

[camero]

149. The teacher pay is a real outrage

It takes some of them 10-20 years to get to that level.

[OhioStateProgressive]

150. it's bad, I know

my mother is a teacher in inner city Columbus, and the inner city pays much better than township schools...of course she has to drive i-270 everyday, on the stretch that the sniper shoots from, so I guess poor pay is the least of her worries

[camero]

151. Just another worry

They haven't caught that guy yet? They are privatizing the schools in Florida. Which means you get a bachelor's degree to make less than 25K. Rediculous.

[OhioStateProgressive]

156. it is crazy, my aunt teaches in okeechobee

she was telling me about that

this thing with the sniper is very odd...and sadly one person has already been murdered by whoever it is

[camero]

158. I kinda wanted to get a start in teaching

But they said you needed a bachelor's even to be an assistant. For that pay?

[ringmastery]

175. teachers

get 3 months vacation during the year.

2 weeks over christmas.

1 week over easter.

Lots of other holidays and free sick days if you live in a good union city.

A normal school year is 180 days where I live.

Yeah, it's a tough job and the pay is low. It's a thankless job. It's also a job that gives you a lot of time off and flexibility.

Overall, not bad a deal. I would take a $35,000 job that gave me 3 months off a year over a regular 9-5 with 2 weeks if I was able to.

[OhioStateProgressive]

204. yes, it is a bad deal...i already stated it(nt)

[arewethereyet]

152. It did happen to me

but I never made anything like $115/hr.

back to work again (thank God) and making less but better than that guy.

Good luck !

[Snappy]

153. The Big Picture

No one mentioned what the agenda of Corporate America is. Both Repubs and Dems mostly are beholden to special interests. The agenda for the Corps is to turn the USA into a 3rd world country where there are two classes, The Upper Class and The Lower Class. The Lower Class can buy cheap goods imported from other countries and work for similar wages that most other 3rd World countries pay. Slash all benefits, no worker's Comp. no paid OT, Mandatory OT.,get rid of Unions/ Collective Bargaining and any Worker's Rights, Weaken OSHA, weaken Environmental Laws. That is the agenda and the top Dem candidates are NOT going to change the agenda.

[camero]

154. Their agenda has been stated here many times.

You are correct. Read the thread. They won't stop until we are their slaves.

[veracity]

155. happening all the time..

My daughter works for one of the largest insurance brokers in the world. They're outsourcing all their programming jobs. Why not? Indian programmers get a fraction of what their American counterparts earned. In addition, all those employees who still have jobs are willing to work ridiculous hours under extraordinary stress and constant pressure because they're afraid of losing the jobs they're hanging onto by a thread. This county is going down the drain, and people won't get it until there's a total collapse. Talk to the pundits and we're in an economic upturn. It's a disaster.

[camero]

157. I hope it doesn't come to that.

But you are probably right. Everybody just wants to say it's a sign of the times when really it is highway robbery.

[Rex]

159. Happened to me too (I wasn't making $115 an hour!)

I've gone back to school to finish up a degree in history. I hear teaching is a steady paycheck, and it can't be any harder than helpdesk (to the DU teachers, that was a joke).

[lapauvre]

160. It happened to me in Largo, FL

Eighteen years ago.. I was only fifty then. And boy, do I have a story about that. Too long to tell. I've survived, but not well.

That's when I learned about the "faith-based" organizations, which I had generously supported, and the "welfare system" I had gladly paid my taxes to sustain. That's where and when I lost everything I owned because I was temporarily, at that time, disabled. That's when I was reduced to rubble and made homeless the first time. That's when I found out that raising four kids without taking a dime from the government didn't count.

That's when I learned that my 1964 fears for the GOP were not ungrounded.

That's when I became a cynic.

That's when I left my church.

Largo, Florida. I'll never forget it. 1984.

My sympathy to this man.

[camero]

161. It could be any one of us.

Thanks to free trade. I'm disabled now and that "welfare state" is pretty much gone now.

[progressivebydesign]

162. We're living proof..

My husband's last job, where he worked for 10 years, moved to the border of California/Mexico to exploit cheap labor. My husband is now working for half the salary, and we're struggling. He sent out a ton of resumes, with a solid work history and skills, he got one interview. Luckily he got that job! The true story of this economy is the one being told here... it's scary. We have to work hard to keep it together and defeat Bush. This is like the nightmare of Bush Sr.'s economy, only 10 times worse.

[camero]

164. In overdrive.

We have to get the Bushies out.

[camero]

166. kick

[mitchum]

169. Call me a bastard, But I have little pity for Tom

so he no longer has a ridiculous inflated salary from a bubble economy? I wonder if Tom was one of those smug tech workers who last decade clucked about those who had lost manufacturing jobs due to outsourcing? "Well those people just need to retrain. Now, computers..." Spare me.

[Snappy]

177. Job Loss

"Call me a bastard"

Mitchum you are a bastard.

[F-5]

181. Thank God I left the IT field when I did.

[KLA2004]

205. strange

I know a guy in IT.

[brainwashed_youth]

229. i'm scared more than all of ya'll

I live in Largo and I probably shop at the Publix where this guy works. Oh man...what's happening ot us

[camero]

242. I'm just up the road from you

In Dunedin.