Tonight, I was ashamed of our country

[alwynsw]

My wife and I were in the checkout line at the supermarket. There was a young couple with two children ahead of us. The husband is a GI stationed at Ft. Knox. (He was in uniform and we were just outside the Wilson Rd. gate.)

When it came time for the family to pay for their purchases - almost entirely baby food and formula - along with things such as ground beef and hot dogs, store brand caneed goods, etc. they used both food stamps and W.I.C. vouchers to pay for most of their purchases. I didn't see any preprepared foods or other frivilous items on the belt. Everything was either for the children or foods that are prepared from scratch. I didn't see anything but the product of very careful and thrifty shopping.

Why am I ashamed? I was shamed by the fact that our country pays those volunteers whom we expect to defend us so little that food stamps and W.I.C. vouchers are available to them. I've seen the same with cops and firefighters. It's an abomination when those whom we expect to protect and defend us have to turn to the state because our elected officials refuse to pay them a living wage.

What's your opinion?

[aquart]

1. I agree.

[Terwilliger]

2. Those folks probably believe that Republicans are their salvation

I think it's horrendous that a $400 billion budget doesn't include decent wages for all personnel.

[lancdem]

6. I totally agree

[Ilsa]

13. But you don't know that for certain.

Bush only got about 56% support for his Iraq policy from a military poll taken last month. http://www.armytimes.com/archivepaper.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-2507239.php

How about a little compassion and less judgement? It wouldn't surprise me if these people are too busy working multiple jobs and raising their kiddos to tune into progressive radio/TV or read about it on the internet. Yeah, I know, that's only an excuse, but don't be ready to jump them politically because they wear a uniform.

[Terwilliger]

14. Understood

but I hate the military...can't help it

The rank and file military may not be bad but the job is.

Republicanism is served by our military. There should be more checks and balances in its usage for violent conflict.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Thanks for the classic response

Military bad, peace good.

Funny how much the second relies on proper use of the first.

They should all have an increase in pay. Having a military on food stamps is shameful.

[BigDaddyLove]

24. TIme after time............

you are my hero.

:yourock:

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. I didn't realize I needed your permission

To pay homage to Dr. King.

[Terwilliger]

25. proper use of the first has failed the history of the US

and you should remove that avatar...IMO

[Bandit]

38. When I was in the military there were "Mess Halls"

I'm sorry to see they have eliminated the "Mess Halls". I guess they eliminated the "Free" legal aid and clothing and heated barracks and "Free" Health Care and basically free travel and insurance and schooling. All Free plus they get pretty good pay on top of all this stuff. If I had all those items free I could live quite well on what a sargent makes.

[LeahMira]

52. Funny how...

... it's never worked out that way.

"Peace is not the product of terror or fear. Peace is not the silence of cemeteries. Peace is not the silent result of violent repression. Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all. Peace is dynamism. Peace is generosity. It is right and it is duty." -- Oscar Romero

[fleetus]

58. Thank you.

Thank you for suggesting that democrats follow their own mantra and avoid stereotypes.

Obvious to _most_ Democrats is the fact that not everyone in the military is Republican. But that sliver of Democrats who hang on to the antiquated philosophy that people IN the military love war and love President* Bush still get under my skin. Although over half of the people in the military are Republican, I agree with some of the people further down on this thread that it is because they are misguided.

Every Democrat who turns their back on uniformed men and women to avoid preaching to a "hopeless" cause is missing out on a real opportunity to swing voters.

IMO, the military is especially ripe for being brought to our side because they can be hit with so many facts that they can directly relate to.

Privatization of Base Housing and Commissary
Being sent into combat without good cause (soldiers do not "like" war)
Percent of Defense increases being spent on _them_ vice _contractors_
Stop losses

And the list goes on. The "real" party for military members is OBVIOUS, but we need to tell them.

The time is NOW to distribute fact sheets to the military. But first Democrats will have to shake the damning mantra that people in the military are a lost cause.

[laruemtt]

3. support the troops indeed....

[madrchsod]

4. totally agree

no wonder bush wants to sign up illegals. soldiers shouldn`t have to use w.i.c. vouchers.

[Rowdyboy]

5. It sickens me that this should be

These kids should at least be able to afford to eat decently conisdering the careers they have assumed.

[are_we_united_yet]

7. And *

has the audacity to ask for 87 billion

[RamboLiberal]

8. I couldn't agree more - every damn congressperson

and every big muckety-muck in the Pentagon, plus * & Dickie should take a pay cut and make sure no US serviceperson needs W.I.C. vouchers to feed their family.

In fact I think we ought to tax the ill-gotten gains from defense contracts from Carlyle, Perle, Cheney, Wolfie, etc., and recycle it back to the privates, corporals and sergeants, and the equivalent in the Navy/Air Force/Coast Guard personnel.

[GinaMaria]

15. with some for the VA hospitals too

What a sad story :-(

[alwynsw]

23. Amen!

Particularly for those with service connected disabilities.

[HawkerHurricane]

9. Hasn't changed much...

since I first signed up in 1984. I qualified for WIC as a PO2 (E-5, SGT other services) in 1994 for my second child; as a PO1 in 1999 I qualified for WIC again for my third.

And to make things more interesting, our friend* in the White House decided to do something about it: he tried to lower the number of people eligible for WIC and food stamps to the point where non-coms no longer qualified.

Billions for defense (contractors), not one cent for the troops is thier motto.

[Skittles]

12. yes - my dad had three kids when he was a 22 year old airman

he worked two extra jobs

[onecitizen]

10. It is criminal that..........

this happens in this country, the wealthiest country in the world, that any person should have to live like that. Much less young people who are willing to give up their lives for us and bush.

[necso]

11. It's terrible.

There is enough money in the defense budget to pay servicemen and women decently. It just isn't spent that way. Salaries aren't the only issue, housing and disability/death benefits are in serious need of improvement.

But even if, heaven forfend, we need to raise taxes, all service professionals who risk their lives for us, deserve a decent living, without having to resort to programs intended for the most disadvantaged.

Thank God that there are still programs like food stamps and WIC, but for how much longer I wonder?

[PSR40004]

16. Seems odd.

I know quite a few families qualify for food stamps but the lowest grade in the military from the last list I saw paid $1290/mo and you get on base housing and subsidized food on base. I know alot of people making do with less without food stamps.

[alwynsw]

22. Try getting into base housing if your pay grade is under E-5

and you'll only get it then if you're lucky. The only subsidized food is individual meals at the chow hall.

FYI: base housing is limited to married GI's or those with dependents living with them. Singles get the barracks - life in a dorm for all intents and purposes.

[blondeatlast]

55. I smell something from the poster you replied to . . .

Take a whiff, and search his posts if you can.

[VLC98]

57. Base housing is readily available for

low ranking married airmen here at Dover AFB (probably because it's disgusting and most members E-5 & up refuse it). In fact, most of the bases I've been to have had adequate housing for young airmen, some of whom have too many kids and live like slobs anyway. Flame away, I'm in a grumpy mood today!

[Gato Moteado]

59. these are people who put their lives on the line to defend our country....

....and your boy george thinks it's ok to use them as pawns in his imperial oil wars. and then these people come back and get 12 or 15K a year to support their families and you think it's alright?

your post doesn't pass the smell test, son.

[The Backlash Cometh]

17. Bring back the G.I. Bill!

It's not like they have to re-invent something that has already worked well before.

[Demonaut]

19. When in Rome,

no Praetorian Guard....to bad

[brokensymmetry]

20. I agree with you.

Making our soldiers resort to food stamps is shameful.

[Djinn]

21. Not just sad

but potentially quite tragic - while soldiers are expected to make do with food stamps maybe they'll decide that selling off a bit of info here and there wouldn't be so bad after all.

when you read about soldiers scrimping to feed their families you should be reading about Zimbabwe or an ex soviet state surely!

[cmf]

26. Sad and it will only get worse

Housing is currently being privatized and Rumsfeld wants to privatize the commissary, too. The military will get less benefits and equal pay. Not to mention the cuts in veteran's benefits and the pay snafus for activated reservists. My husband is in the Navy and I often challenge people I know to explain why they think that Republicans are better for the military. I counter with facts like these and you can see the wheels turning in their heads. It's a flat out myth that Republicans are better for the military and it's up to people like us to change their perceptions just by talking to them and telling them the facts.

[Beam Me Up]

27. That was well said, thank you.

For someone like myself who knows very little about this particular subject, it would be helpful to have a simple "fact book."

It occurs to me that as a general rule militaries do note bite the hand that feeds them.However, should it feeds them less and less? The Neocon agenda assumes something about our military men and women (infact about all of us) that may not ultimately be true.

[HawkerHurricane]

45. "...militaries do note bite the hand that feeds them"...

How many revolutions and coups have been because the military though it wasn't getting it's fair share? 'Battleship Potempkin' ring a bell?

One of the biggest dangers of a large military is that it will decide to run things itself, since it 'couldn't do worse than the civilians'.

[directinfection]

35. information?

Where can one find information to counter the claim that republicans are better for the millitary? Ive tried brining up cutting veterens pay, proposed active duty cuts, deplorable VA hospital conditions..and all i am met with is how clinton destroyed the millitary and put them all on foodstamps. did he or didn't he?

[HawkerHurricane]

46. He didn't.

See my post higher up...

There were troops on foodstamps (and eating dinner at the USO on Tuesday and Saturday, and at the military YMCA on Sundays and Thursdays) back in 1986.

Reagan did nothing.
Bush (the greater) did nothing.
Clinton did little (one strike against him)
Bush (the lesser) does nothing.

Last person to do something about it seriously was Carter.

[SoCalDem]

28. Devil's advocate here...sort of..

The lower level military pay was not intended for a family.. Years ago, most really young soldiers were single.. They lived in barracks, ate at mess hall, and usually had zero "expenses".. They used to have to ask permission to even get married.. Once they rose to sgt or above,and were married, they "qualified" for base housing and usually made enough money to support a family.. Bases had commissaries, BXes, barber shops, restaurants.. everything they needed was on base and was cheap.. Schools were free,recreation centers on base were free,the housing was not luxurious, but it was ok and it was cheap.. Utilities were included..

A twentysomething soldier and his family could afford their life..

Somewhere around the 70's, things changed dramatically.. Base housing was actually removed from a lot of bases, as were schools.. Families were encouraged to live "off-base", and were offered a housing allowance.. At first it was enough, but rents rose higher than the subsidies... There were long waiting lists of soldiers trying to get on-base housing, but you had to be above a certain rank to even qualify..

There are some postings that do not even allow the family to go with the soldier, because of the cost of "family support"...

Military life was usually a young man's thing, for a few years, and when he got out, was when he settled down and married.. The ones who were in it for the long haul were the ones who dragged their families all over the world for decades.. The base housing and perks were intended for them...not the rank and file soldier..

Tough job conditions, and aggressive recruiting lured a lot of young guys who already had families that they could not support, into the military.. These were the ones who joined up so that they could get more education and have free medical and dental care for their wife & kids, even though the pay stunk.. The pay never really got any better and since most of these folks have to live off base, they can barely afford it.. That's where the food stamps come in.. It sucks, but it's most likely because they joined up with a family already and they have not moved up the ranks where they would get more pay...

[oc2002]

43. There use to be a DRAFT too.

Good points, no wonder nobody wanted to go to the military if your married or wanted to get married.

[SoCalDem]

48. The draft was a HUGE part of it

If a guy was drafted at 18, he was very unlikely to even HAVE a family.. After his time was up, he usually wanted NO PART of the military, so the "lifers" were automatically older and probably did have families.. The perks were to keep them IN..

After the draft ended, the military did nothing to really improve the "family attractiveness" of military life.. Lots of single Moms looked to the military too, because the jobs they could get on the "outside" had no benefits..

It's very complex, but the military has always pretended to be "family friendly", but the reality is this... They are family friendly to the higher ranks, but to the lower ranks, forget it..:(

They need the numbers and if the young ones with wives and kids struggle, so be it.. The military probably thinks that it will only make them work harder:(

[Comadreja]

29. It is also shameful

that our militaristic nation offers so few alternatives to idealistic, patriotic young people than that of uniformed gunslingers killing third world people for the likes of Bush and Cheney. As MLK said, we need a drastic change of priorities to pursue peace instead of war.

[pacifictiger]

30. you need to send this story

to all the demo candidates and every news outlet you can manage. Maybe others on this forum can share the load of sending, with your permission of course. Do I have your permission to submit to our local newspaper?

[alwynsw]

32. Please do. I did.

Thanks for asking.

[alfredo]

31. all the more reason to get the chicken hawks out of office.

You need to write that in your local paper like the Courier Journal in Louisville.
Also write to the Herald Leader in Lexington. I know they will print it.



Try to keep it close to 250 words.

[alwynsw]

34. Have done.

Also the Paducah Sun, Owensboro Messenger-Inquirer, along with several others around the state as well as Clarksville, TN (by Ft. Campbell). I just love copy and paste.

I've discovered that a letter to the editor that has several addresses in the box usually gets ignored, so I send them individually.

[alfredo]

41. Very good. I will

keep an eye out for your letter.

I will be posting some Bush Lied posters around lexington soon.

BUSH
LIED

I have put us several already on well travelled low speed avenues.

Anything we can do to get people to think about the issues is the right thing to do.

[AP]

33. Meanwhile, CEOs of def. contractors are eating well, sending kids to Yale

This is disgusting.

[spindoctor]

37. Armed forces working second jobs to feed their family

I kid you not.

I know a few people from a nearby airforce base. One works at Home Depot to make ends meet and the other has a small roofing company on the side.

From what I hear from them it is not at all uncommon for soldiers to have a second job.

The same is true for firemen, policemen and lets not forget teachers. We honor these people as heroes, we treat them like servants. Its crazy.

[hippiegranny]

39. another perspective

my son-in-law is in the navy. he and my daughter live in base housing on coronado island in san diego, poor things, with a front yard view of the sea. they make enough money to drive a monster truck, have a larger wardrobe for themselves and my grandchildren than a small town has collectively, nice furniture, all the electronics, etc. they also collect food stamps. why? cause they can. i don't agree with it, but as you can probably guess, their outlook as citizens of the world differs from mine DRAMATICALLY.

[Logansquare]

53. Look at E1-E4 salaries

They are pretty low, and apparently the housing allowances are kind of skimpy (depending on location). I could see how people with kids and a car might have trouble quite making it.

Occcupational Outlook Handbook
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos249.htm#earnings
Military basic monthly pay by grade for active duty personnel, July 1, 2001

E1 <4 mos. 964.80
E1 >4 mos. 1,042.80
E2 1,169.10
E3 1,214.70
E4 1,288.80

In addition to basic pay, military personnel receive free room and board (or a tax-free housing and subsistence allowance), medical and dental care, a military clothing allowance, military supermarket and department store shopping privileges, 30 days of paid vacation a year (referred to as leave), and travel opportunities. In many duty stations, military personnel may receive a housing allowance that can be used for off-base housing. This allowance can be substantial, but varies greatly by rank and duty station. For example, in July 2001, the housing allowance for an E-4 with dependents was $462.90 per month; for a comparable individual without dependents, it was $323.40. <snip>

[Logansquare]

54. Sorry hippiegranny, meant to post the above off of the main nt

[classics]

40. If a cop or fireman is getting food stamps.

then they have too many kids. Those jobs do not pay poverty level wages by any means.

[tinanator]

51. or a really poor union

that doesnt add up. nope.

[oc2002]

42. That would make a great ANTI-Bush comercial.

If it was made into a political comercial to show how poorly the Veterans are treated by the BushCo.

But then CBS would not show it anyway....

[area51]

47. It just goes to show...

... how despite their BS words, George W. Hoover & the republinazi party are anti-military. With the way they're being treated, I'm sure there won't be any kind of republinazi push to make sure all the military votes get counted this Nov.; instead, Shrub & friends will probably try to ensure that many military votes get "lost" before they can be counted.

[Hubert Flottz]

49. You need to focus on the bright side!

Dick Cheney got a check for $80,000.00 from the IRS!

[Nobody]

50. I was aware of this before Bush cut combat hazard pay.

Not only do the enlisted soldiers have to scrimp and save to feed themselves, their hazard pay was cut in half (my friend's son was in Iraq), their health benefits are also less than what they were when Bush took office.

Nice of you to support the troops, Bush.

[JHB]

56. Related article

I bookmarked this article a while ago. I don't necessarily agree with it, since I don't have enough practical experience with the current state of affairs, but I AM pretty sure the situation has only deteriorated under His Squandership.

The Myth of Military Poverty
Most servicemembers are not poor. The ones who are need fiscal boot camp
...
From the system's creation up through most of the Vietnam War, the armed forces operated as the surrogate parent of their personnel---especially enlistees. In return for loyalty, competence, diligence, and in some cases bravery, the military would take care of your every need: housing, food, clothing, medical care, retirement, and pocket money. Even in the early years of the all-volunteer force, most junior enlistees and many (if not most) junior officers were unmarried. They lived and dined on base. If they were stationed aboard ship, they lived and ate meals aboard ship, not ashore. With a few exceptions, the only ones who were married and lived off base were officers and senior enlistees. These people received a cash allowance to compensate for housing and food they would have received if they were single and lived on base.

For most, the cash components of compensation provided for a good time in town and little else. The in-kind components, especially extensive recreational facilities, provided free on-base options between pay days. Only senior officers had enough cash income to pay for an upper-middle-class lifestyle.

Today, each service has dozens of occupational specialties, technology touches every aspect of life (both in and out of the military), women serve alongside men virtually everywhere, few military personnel live in military housing, and 60 percent of them are married. Plus, young people are far more independent and individualistic when they enter the service and expect a far greater level of material comfort than their predecessors. Despite these changes, the generals and admirals cling to the antique compensation system their grandfathers knew. Lawrence J. Korb, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower in the Reagan Administration, says the current system "is outmoded and outdated." It is so complex that listing its various components can make your eyes glaze over.
----more---------
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0104.webb.html