The poor (& Middle class) shouldn't have to carry the rich!

[JanMichael]

The rich don't build their own mansions. Workers making a modest living do.

The rich don't build their own limosines. Workers making a modest living do.

It's the 90% of the people who struggle who are providing the fine lifestyles to the 10% at the top.


A-freakin'-man.

PS- I'm quoting another GD thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1058055&mesg_id=1058055

Seriously...Why should we support the very rich when people go without healthcare and sleep on the streets?

[KissMyAsscroft]

1. Rich people in this country need a fucking reality check.

They barely pay any taxes anyway, and their tax rate has gone down year after year since well before Reagan. They have loophole after loophole and write off after write off. Not to mention that a lot of them live on interest and tax free investments.

They act like they are breaking rocks or something, it's disgusting.

They shouldn't be overtaxed but they are FAR from being adaquetely taxed right now.

[wunnerfulrobin]

12. Top 1% pay 35% of the income taxes, top 5% pay 55%

we're wasting time on this, when there's REAL problems to focus on!
And no, I'm not rich.
Doggone it!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. nice deception there

you're talking about federal income tax, right? Forgetting to mention all the subsidies and bailouts that the rich get, and the many functions of government that protect their wealth. Those statistics make good PR though - the Republicans are always spreading that around. Where are your statistics from again?

The rich in the country are going to get a reality check very soon if decent white collar jobs keep getting offshored. It's going to be ugly too.

[camero]

16. 35% of FEDERAL income taxes

Nice try in slanting the debate. Let's leave the others that they don't pay out. :eyes:

[Mandate My Ass]

20. Not actually

Poor Paying More
State and Local Taxes Rigged for the Rich

"The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) is a non-profit, non-partisan research and education organization that works on government taxation and spending policy issues.

"By an overwhelming margin, most states tax their middle- and low-income families far more heavily than the wealthy, according to a new study by the Institute on Taxation & Economic Policy.

"Nationwide, middle-income families pay almost 10 percent of their earnings in state and local taxes and poor families pay more than 11 percent. But the richest people effectively pay only 5.2 percent of their income in state and local taxes.
Since 1989, state and local taxes have risen on low- and middle-income taxpayers, but have fallen on the very wealthiest."

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/7083

[Redleg]

35. That's the party line, isn't it?

And I'm not talking the Democratic party, either. Consider the taxes other than the FEDERAL INCOME TAX. There's payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, state and local taxes, etc that are paid disproportionately by the non-wealthy.

[Mike Niendorff]

50. Two responses:

(1) I'd like to see your exact source for this claim (and I mean the specific document and specific methodology used, not just a vague reference to this or that think-tank or agency. As for why, see item #2, below).

(2) When you say "top 1%" : what exactly does this refer to? Are we talking the "top 1%" in terms of *gross income*? Or (more likely) are we talking the "top 1%" in terms of *net income* (ie: after all the *real* fat-cats have whittled the number down -- sometimes to zero -- through endless loopholes, tax-shelters and tax-evasion schemes)? Seriously: which is it? Because if your "top 1%" is based on "income-after-loopholes", it's going to leave out a hell of a lot of the real "top 1%" in this country, and, instead, is going to incorrectly identify a lot of middle and upper-middle class wage-earners as being much higher up the ladder than they really are.

To put it another way :

A few years back it was reported that -- due to loopholes, tax-shelters, etc -- the Boeing Corporation had taxable income of *ZERO* for about three years running (iirc). Now, since their "after-loophole-income" was reported as *ZERO*, does Boeing still get counted as part of the "top 1%" when computing the figure you cited? (Or, for that matter, do corporations even get counted at all?)

There are just way too many ways that a figure like this is susceptible to being distorted. I want to see the fine-print (and, particularly, the "median income" figure for that "top 1%" -- that one ought to tell us a lot right there).

(and, of course, that's not even taking into account the more-obvious fact that federal income taxes make up a fraction of the total tax burden imposed on the working class in this country, and your "35%" and "55%" figures totally leave out the rest of it, artificially skewing the numbers to the high side).


MDN

[wunnerfulrobin]

59. late response

from the IRS, they say the top 1% is those who have a gross income of over 300k per yr.

[cprise]

54. Top 1% posess 38% of U.S. wealth

They were getting a bargain.

[lastknowngood]

2. Don't call the rich just call the the ruling class

if you remember you are a serf in a fiefdoms it makes more since.
Most of the people need a trip to rural Mississippi and have to live in one of those tar paper shacks and survive of of $240 a month.

[JanMichael]

6. Five Million Ways to Kill a CEO!

http://www.clamormagazine.org/features/issue11.2_feature.html

And the song...

The cCoup with Boots Riley!

(scraches) Help me outà

(Breakdown)
Yaw, yaw, yaw, yaw (2x)

(Chorus)
We've got
5 million ways to kill a CEO
Slap him up and shake him up
And then, you know,
Let him off the flo'
Than bait him with the dough
You can do it funk or (Breakdown) do it disco (2x)


Well I hope you testify that it was worth your waitin'
On the turf debatin' how to get it percolatin'
He workin' you while we happy just to work a Dayton
But I'mma slap him till my blood starts circulatin' (Breakdown)

Do you checks have elasticity?
Did they cut off yo 'lectricity?
Did you scream and yell explicitly?
Force the boss into complicity (Breakdown)

I'm a white chalk stencil but I push a pencil
Rollin' dope fiend rentals through your residential
Broke as fuck, eatin' lentils with no utensil
Finna teach pimp class with a hoe credential (Breakdown)

They own sweats spots, pet cops and fields of cola
Murder babies with they molars on the areola
Control the Pope, Dali Lama, Holy Rollers, and the Ayatollah
Bump this rollin' (Breakdown) in your bucket or your new Corolla

Where you might catch me on the scenic route
With my penis out
Yellin ôtwamps for the executive with the meanest mouth!ö
Wanna know what this demeanor's 'bout?
City tryna clean us out, green is clout, shut 'em down (Breakdown)
They ain't never seen a drought

You interviewed but they ain't callin' you back
(and for the record I ain't called it a gat)
But tuck this in the small of your back
Wait in the bathroom stall till I tap (Breakdown)

(Chorus) 2x


Suck this game in slow, it's the creeper
If you a janitor, get a street sweeper
Ugly is even skin deeper
If you can't get the prez, get the veeper (Breakdown)

They made the murder scene before there was a coroner
I mighta been born here but I'm a foreigner
Spillin' swigs for victims of pigs and Afeni's kid
Flip off the lid, who you (Breakdown) pourin' for?

You too could be a corporate green killer
Bean spiller
Gangsta of love just like Steve Miller
They wear scivies that's made o' chinchilla

Factory in Mexico, bought (Breakdown) a spring villa

I'm from the land where the Panthers grew
You know the city and the avenue
If you the boss we'll be smabbin' through
And we'll be grabbin' you
To say ôWassup with the revenue?ö (Breakdown)
And if you feel it we can even try to seal it with the

(Chorus) 2x


Tell him it's a boom in child prostitution
When he show up at the stroll give him lead restitution
Tell him it's a twenty in a vat 'o hot oil
When he jump in after it watch him boil (Breakdown)

Toss a dollar in the river and when he jump in
If you can find he can swim
Put lead boots on him and do it again
You and a friend
Videotape and the party don't end (Breakdown)

Tell that boogers be sellin' like crack
He gon' put the little baggies in his nose
And suffocate like that
Put a fifty in the barrel of a gun
When he try to suck it out, a-ha well you (Breakdown) know this oneà

Make sure you ain't got no priors
Don't tell 'em that we conspired
We could let him try to change a flat tire
Or we could all at once retire (Breakdown)
There are just a few of theà

(Chorus) 2x


Bay Area, get ready to brawl, Bay Area, are you ready to brawl?
L.A., get ready to brawl, L.A., are you ready to brawl? (Breakdown)
Chi-town, get ready to brawl, Chi-Town, are you ready to brawl?
Detroit, get ready to brawl, Detroit, are you ready to brawl? (Breakdown)
Atlanta, get ready to brawl, Atlanta, are you ready to brawl?
Houston, get ready to brawl, Houston, are you ready to brawl? (Breakdown)
New York, get ready to brawl, New York, are you ready to brawl?
London, get ready to brawl, London, are you ready to brawl? (Breakdown)
Capetown, get ready to brawl, Capetown, are you ready to brawl?
Tokyo, get ready to brawl, Tokyo, are you ready to brawl? (Breakdown)

Yeah
The Coup (Breakdown)
Boots Riley
Pam The Funkstress
It's really goin' down (Breakdown)
Yeah, ya know, in case you didn't know, gats are comin'
The Coup
You know, sum'n', sum'n' (Breakdown)

[Vote2004]

3. HUH?

The rich don't build their own mansions. Workers making a modest living do.

So who EMPLOYS the workers and PAY them?

It's the 90% of the people who struggle who are providing the fine lifestyles to the 10% at the top.

So then, by your very own logic, the 10% provides for the 90% with JOBS, HEALTH CARE BENEFITS, AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT BENEFITS?

Seriously...Why should we support the very rich when people go without healthcare and sleep on the streets?

Believe me, one doesn't sleep on the streets and go without healthcare IF they are "supporting" the very rich and are employed.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Vote2004]

9. I am going to click on your link and check it out, but

please tell me that it's not some email bomb that will hijack my computer? Guess you don't like what I posted?
(free republic? that sounds ironic! nothing is free!)

[camero]

11. They seem to think it is.

[Vote2004]

18. WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I checked out the freerepublic link you sent me!!!

So, since I disagree with you on one issue, you send me to this site?
EXCUSE ME!

[camero]

19. You may feel more at home there

Just a suggestion. :)

[Vote2004]

23. One less Lieberman supporter then!

You want me to go away, I can take a hint!

[camero]

24. Do what you want.

I'm not your daddy. :)

[K-W]

25. If you think that we should be thankful for the pennies the rich hand us,

you really dont belong here. I think reducing the wealth disparity is a pretty basic position for liberals.

[Vote2004]

29. ?

Guess I don't then. Guess I am not a liberal after all. I am not for reducing the wealth disparity; I am for everyone reaching their dreams in America by working hard. (Think I said before, but I am not from this country and believe in the American dream and stuff).

Never thought that I'd be accused of being this fr*e*pe* (whatever) stuff though.

[camero]

31. The rich work hard?

That's the funniest thing I ever heard. :)

[solinvictus]

38. American Dream

"Guess I don't then. Guess I am not a liberal after all. I am not for reducing the wealth disparity; I am for everyone reaching their dreams in America by working hard. (Think I said before, but I am not from this country and believe in the American dream and stuff"

If you're not a native, I'm willing to excuse your Horatio Alger perception of the current economy. Here's the basic rundown: the rich have been fighting a particularly dirty form of class warfare for the past decade. At each turn, any program, no matter how meager, designed to assist common people is immediately decried as socialism. They, through mass media, resort to syllogisms that would have you believe that a free school lunch is neo-Stalinism incarnate. Because they control the tone of the debate, these same corporate executives and owners request bailouts at taxpayer expense for their own benefit. Now, where do their taxes go? By and large, nowhere, because the taxes are never collected. Because of corporate tax loopholes that would land you or I in federal prison, THEY are allowed to open an overseas mailbox and claim a foreign headquarters thus exempting themselves from federal taxes. Take airlines after September 11,2001; the executives go to Congress saying," we must have federal assistance or we'll have to lay workers off". What happened? Congress approved the bailout, the CEO's issued layoff orders, they gave themselves raises, their stock went up because Wall Street loves layoffs, and then the executives receive bonuses. How, by any stretch of the imagination, did that bailout save jobs or benefit the taxpayers?

[Vote2004]

40. Thank you for explaing

Will read your post again and think about it some more, but the generaal feeling here is that I am some fr* whatever and go away and good riddandce, for voicing my honest opinion and reported myself to the admin.

America, with all that might be wrong with her, is the best place on earth so far.

[camero]

42. With all due respect.

You should really get out more. See the world. It's enlightening.

[Vote2004]

44. 3 continent not good enough?

[camero]

47. And you have those views?

Where did you stay? The Ritz?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. I Love America

but she ain't what she used to be. When the wealthiest 1% controls over 40% of the wealth, there is something terribly wrong with this country. the wealthiest 1% now owns more wealth than the entire bottom 95% combined.

In constant dollars, blue-collar workers, the ones who actually produce America's material wealth, are making less in earnings than they did in 1974.

In 1979, CEOs were paid 40 times what the average worker received. Today, CEOs receive over 420 times what their average employee earns. As an example, General Electric's CEO, Jack Welch, destroyed 128,000 jobs while being paid $83.6 million.

Most Americans currently have a lower net worth than they possessed in 1984, the beginning of the greatest stock market growth in history. The bottom 40% of American households have lost 80% of their average net worth, The middle 20% has lost 11%.

Is there something here you understand? If you're willfully ignorant and close your eyes to the harsh economic realities facing our country, then you're on the wrong message board. If you're willing to open your mind, welcome aboard.

[jab105]

60. Most of the millionaires are millionaires because dddy was a millionaire..

yes, there are the "Millionaires Newxt Door" which was a book not too long ago, but the majority were born into it, think Bush...think of who gets into Harvard and gets the good jobs...85% is through connections...

It is great to have the American dream, a noble dream to have...but if the rich are working to make the middle class shrink and the poor class rise, then there is a huff that should be raised about it...

[camero]

5. I do support the rich

Through my taxes. I fund their stadiums, their factories (Scripps anyone?), their roads, their pharmaceuticals, their wars, advertise their products overseas. The list goes on and on.

It's about time I stopped.

[wunnerfulrobin]

7. At least ONE voice of reason!

I always get a laugh when I read these "evil rich" posts. What a joke. Gee, I wonder how much Kerry, Dean, Edwards, ETC. are worth??

[JanMichael]

8. Go Pats.

Nuff said.

[Cat Atomic]

10. The sad thing is,

there are alot of stupid sots out there who make $80k per year and think they're rich.

[wunnerfulrobin]

13. A lot of posters here would agree with that

[Cat Atomic]

14. Must be nice to read minds.

[rman]

55. if 80k is rich, then how'd you call, say 400k, + several Mil. in the bank

?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

26. What conspiracy theory are you going on about?

"So who EMPLOYS the workers and PAY them?"

Uh, where do you think that money comes from? Here's a hint - the aliens don't bring it, and it doesn't grow on trees. Those workers CREATE the wealth - that's where the money comes from.

"So then, by your very own logic, the 10% provides for the 90% with JOBS, HEALTH CARE BENEFITS, AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT BENEFITS?"

Hello? WORKERS provide health care!!! They are called HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

I think you're a little confused here.

[Terwilliger]

34. response

>>>>The rich don't build their own mansions. Workers making a modest living do.

So who EMPLOYS the workers and PAY them?<<<<<

The economy...built on the backs of poor and lower-middle class who work their asses off for very little while the idle rich count their stock investments.

>>>>It's the 90% of the people who struggle who are providing the fine lifestyles to the 10% at the top.

So then, by your very own logic, the 10% provides for the 90% with JOBS, HEALTH CARE BENEFITS, AND OTHER EMPLOYMENT BENEFITS?<<<<

Only because they have to...not because they want to. You think its ok to hold 3 meals a day over the workforce while the owners throw away unused pate de fois gras?

>>>>Seriously...Why should we support the very rich when people go without healthcare and sleep on the streets?

Believe me, one doesn't sleep on the streets and go without healthcare IF they are "supporting" the very rich and are employed.<<<<

OOOOOOO!!!! Employment!!!!! Oooooooooooooo......

EMPLOYMENT IS NOT THE PANACEA OF WORTH. SOME PEOPLE WORK 40-HOUR WEEKS ALL THEIR LIFE JUST TO GET BY!

I hope this capitalistic elitism isn't the end of the Democratic party.

[solinvictus]

39. Employment

"EMPLOYMENT IS NOT THE PANACEA OF WORTH. SOME PEOPLE WORK 40-HOUR WEEKS ALL THEIR LIFE JUST TO GET BY! "

Actually, an increasing number of workers do this and are completely unable to get by because low wages will not provide a decent home and basic necessities at the same time. The working poor are increasingly hungry because they must choose between rent or groceries.

[Colin Ex]

58. "I hope this capitalistic elitism isn't the end of the Democratic party."

The working class better hope the same thing, because then they're super-fucked.

-C

[leesa]

41. Umm Who do you think has looted our treasury? Most of it

goes for corporate welfare, including military welfare, and I don't mean service people, I mean the arms sellers.

[JanMichael]

17. Looks like this light hearted thread smoked out some Fr**p*rs.

Bwah! No harm no foul, no?

[Vote2004]

21. Now that I know what you all mean by Fr**p*rs,,,,,,,

EXCUSE ME! Is this a typical treatment a new voice receives, just because you don't agree with something I said? Thought this site was democratic? Do we have to agree on everything?

[JanMichael]

22. Perhaps it is?

Perhaps I was was just describing an attitude in general? Or maybe just the other whiner? Who knows my friend...

That said you're awfully defensive for an mistakenly maligned Liberal...

[K-W]

27. This site is for democrats

more importantly, those who disagree with bush and his policies. You seem to be in agreement with Bush on one of the more important issues facing the nation.

[Vote2004]

32. But I strongly disagree with him on other issues.

Guess that doesn't matter, "nice" reception I received tonight in addition to being accused of being this free* whatever thing and all that, so I can conclude that I should check out the public concensus before I speak my mind here anymore.

Nice!

[Terwilliger]

36. just that you're a small minority here

can ya handle that?

[Vote2004]

43. Yes, as long as..

I am free to explain my position without being accused of being something I don't believe in.

[Terwilliger]

46. well...

there are reactionaries everywhere! ;-)

[shanti]

53. yes

any newbie to a bb should.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

28. if the shoe fits...

... it was probably made by a union worker. Slave labor - you get what you pay for!

[Generic Other]

30. The owner class is waging class warfare against the rest of us

They do it every century or so.

It always ends badly for them. Why should it be any different this time?

If Americans are reduced to poverty and the middle class destroyed, the rich better beware. They will suffer 10 times more than the misery they have inflicted. Their goods will be vandalized, their food tainted, their wealth pilfered, their families threatened.

As Kris Kristofferson (former Rhodes scholar and 60s singer) once sang: "Freedom's just another name for nothing left to lose."

"Nothing left to lose..." How long until we all reach this state?

[Terwilliger]

33. It's a class war...whether Pukes want one or not

is it going to be the few rich, or the mostly poor who decide whats best for the world?

[Mike Niendorff]

51. I disagree: the RW does not want a class war.

They want a nice, orderly surrender.


MDN

[camero]

52. I doubt they are going to get it.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

37. Why not? It's called a plutocracy.

Tongue planted in my cheek.

[Paragon]

45. Or, in the words of Tyler Durden...

"Look, the people you are after are the people you depend on. We cook your meals, we drive your ambulances. We connect your calls, we guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us."

[Selwynn]

49. Hehe I love Fight Club

Our war is a spiritual war... and our great depression... is our lives...

[Kathy in Cambridge]

56. Some of the responses on these threads are Dickensian

I can't believe there is a worship of the rich on DU. Most did not EARN their money; they INHERITED their money, which is why Bush & Co. want to raise payroll taxes on us average joes and do away with capital gains and taxes on unearned income.

Again, here is my post from above.

When the wealthiest 1% controls over 40% of the wealth, there is something terribly wrong with this country. the wealthiest 1% now owns more wealth than the entire bottom 95% combined.

In constant dollars, blue-collar workers, the ones who actually produce America's material wealth, are making less in earnings than they did in 1974.

In 1979, CEOs were paid 40 times what the average worker received. Today, CEOs receive over 420 times what their average employee earns. As an example, General Electric's CEO, Jack Welch, destroyed 128,000 jobs while being paid $83.6 million.

Most Americans currently have a lower net worth than they possessed in 1984, the beginning of the greatest stock market growth in history. The bottom 40% of American households have lost 80% of their average net worth, The middle 20% has lost 11%.

[dumpster_baby]

57. Their worship of the rich has to do with our pack animal heritage

Over the millions of years while our ancestors were pack aniamls, primates living within a social hierarchy, the leaders of the pack, the strongest, the smartest, the most aggressive, the best hunters, the most attractive, were obeyed and kowtowed-to and worshipped. That was how the best genes got passed on. Their enhanced social status meant that they reproduced more often and passed on their genes.

Well, most humans still live within and by the rules of the pack animal milieu. They are thus very susceptible to the propaganda that these rich, the wealthy, the investor class, the business lobbies, the business owners put out about how the rich are overtaxed and are carrying the rest of society.

And today, even those who are born rich are worshipped. These also comes from pack animal heritage. Take a look at how the offspring of the pack leaders from hyena and lion hierarchies are treated: the offspring of the alpha animals there are also given enhanced social status.