Jane Fonda , Patriot or Traitor?

[mitchtv]

many of you weren't around when Jane went to Hanoi. she is still widely hated by many(not I).I met her at a Gay solidarity with chilean resistance rally in SF in 73. I also opposed the VNam intervention so I am not unbiased. What's the verdict?

[Terwilliger]

1. traitriot

[prolesunited]

9. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[monobrau]

25. *applause*

-nt

[fujiyama]

31. lol

good one!

[Jackpine Radical]

2. I vote Idiot.

She was pretty far out of line on her Hanoi trip, calling for the death of American soldiers. I think she did immense damage to the antiwar movement. Jesus, she might as well have been an extremist FBI plant.

[mitchtv]

7. you might be right

but at least we had a war resistance, not thefacsmile we have today. I 'm still waiting for this generation to step up to the plate with ACTION.

[proud patriot]

8. I second that

[Ernesto]

13. Please support your statement:

"calling for the death of American soldiers".

[Silverhair]

41. Hell, she was photographed crewing one of their anti-aircraft guns.

I would say that counts as wanting the deaths of American military people.

[dreissig]

42. War Crimes

At the time Fonda expressed solidarity with the people of North Vietnam, our Air Force was dropping tons of bombs on crowded cities. Theis bombing was done mainly out of spite, to coax North Vietnamese negotiators out of their resistance. Nixon's actions would be seen as a crime against humanity except for the times that we live in. Bush is even worse.

The famous pose of Fonda sitting behind an anti-aircraft gun probably came about because somebody took advantage of her naivete. She was a young actress, not a politician. The war had to be stopped, and she helped stop it.

[efhmc]

65. Good one, I would have marked that choice if it were presented.

[liberalnurse]

3. Actually, she was just plain

ignorant.

[dreissig]

48. The War Needed to be Stopped

Nixon was casually bombing cities in North Vietnam, it didn't mean anything to him. He had no more concern for the lives of the innocent than Al Qaeda or Timothy McVeigh.

The war had to be stopped, and Fonda helped stop it. Rather than calling her ignorant, you should be praising her humanity.

[saltpoint]

4. I voted Patriot.

I heard her speak in Dayton, Ohio with Tom Hayden on the subject of economic democracy. Two minutes into her talk, the cops rushed in and ordered everyone out because there had been a bomb threat.

Fonda grabbed the mike from one of the cops and shouted to the crowd to remain, that there is no bomb threat, that this was just a way for the reactionary ultra-conservatives to prevent her from speaking her mind.

Most of us stayed. Her speech was thoughtful and compassionate. If she was sharp in her criticism of the Right, they have been heavy-handed and cowardly in their treatment of her.

My hat's off to Ms. Fonda.

[Leilani]

5. Our POW's passed her notes to take home for families

and she ratted on them. They were then tortured unmercifully.

If that's not a traitor, then I don't know what is.

She also posed on an antiaircraft gun used to shoot down US pilots.

[Nomad559]

11. That's Not True - See Snopes

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.htm

The most serious accusations in the piece quoted above -- that Fonda turned over slips of paper furtively given her by American POWS to the North Vietnamese and that several POWs were beaten to death as a result -- are proveably untrue. Those named in the inflammatory e-mail categorically deny the events they supposedly were part of.

"It's a figment of somebody's imagination," says Ret. Col. Larry Carrigan, one of the servicemen mentioned in the 'slips of paper' incident. Carrigan was shot down over North Vietnam in 1967 and did spend time in a POW camp. He has no idea why the story was attributed to him. "I never met Jane Fonda."

[apsuman]

46. slips of paper might be false, but...

From snopes


Claim: During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured.

Status: True.


and more specifically:

The story about a POW forced to kneel on rocky ground while holding a piece of steel rebar in his outstretched arms is true, though. That account comes from Michael Benge, a civilian advisor captured by the Viet Cong in 1968 and held as a POW for 5 years. His original statement, titled "Shame on Jane," was published in April by the Advocacy and Intelligence Network for POWs and MIAs.

[dreissig]

51. It's True Because . . .

It's true because he says so? He clearly has a motive to make up a popular story. It makes him a celebrity, the toast of the town!

I don't believe it. Fonda acted out of compassion. If there's any doubt to be resolved, I believe her, not her critics.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. GOP propaganda

that's false

[Dob Bole]

6. She has expressed her regrets...

for her activities in Vietnam, as misguided as they were. But hey, this year she is joining the ranks of born-again Christians planning to oust Bush. For that, she is a patriot. Woot.

[dreissig]

44. Misguided

Jane Fonda, who was part of a generation who opposed the war, was especially appalled by Nixon's bombing of the cities of North Vietnam. Expressing solidarity with the victims of Nixon's madness was a humanitarian gesture and a worthy one.

There was nothing misguided about resistance to the Vietnam War. The war needed to be stopped, and she helped stop it. More power to her.

[DBoon]

10. Tom Hayden's former wife

Her former husband was accused of "giving opportunism a bad name" by Abbie Hoffman

[David Zephyr]

58. Hayden Hardly An Opportunist. Hoffman on the Other Hand...

I know Tom Hayden personally. He has been in my home. He wears his politics in the life he lives. He is one of the most decent, caring individuals I have had to pleasure to know. He is also one of the brightest bulbs in America.

Long before Abbie Hoffman thought it might be cool to be "revolutionary" and make a name for himself, Tom Hayden was working to stop the War in Vietnam.

Hayden, from Michigan, was arrested by the police in McComb, Mississippi at the tender age of 18 demonstrating in the early 60's for civil and voter rights for African-Americans.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

12. Traitor. It's one thing to be against the war,

it's another thing to openly support the enemy. She did a bad thing, indeed.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

15. Huh?

What's the deal? Explain.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

17. Wow. I didn't know I had to prove my liberal credentials...

I've been here since year one, friend. I know I don't post as often as I should, but I didn't just stumble in. BTW, before you label me a Freeper, why don't you explain your point, and show me where I'm wrong?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

22. I never called you the "F" word

you're entitled to your opinions. I'm not your mother-you don't have to prove anything to me.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

23. All right, it's cool.

I'll just leave things at that. No harm done.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

34. Not a liar at all

I signed up in 2001. I don't post as often as everyone else I know, but I've not lying when I say I've been here. Look, I don't take it personally. I'm done with this issue.

[bluestateguy]

18. Her visit to Vietnam was despicable

I'm glad she and others opposed the war, but her visit with the enemy was despicable. She mocked US soldiers being tortured by VC and NVA, and cheered on a Vietnamese victory in the war.

[Lone_Wolf_Moderate]

21. I'm glad somebody agrees with me

[dreissig]

45. Mocking US Soldiers

The reports of Jane Fonda mocking U.S. prisoners is probably another invention of the right wing. The available documentation suggests only that they did not happen.

[Poseidon]

50. Bullshit

bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Got any more?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. I just think she was dumb.

Her anti-war stance was admirable. Posing in an enemy uniform was just plain stupid and a slap in the face to the many drafted troops that didn't want to be there.

[Zorro]

27. Agreed, she's a nitwit

Saw her speak on campus 30 years ago -- was very unoriginal in her comments on the war.

I was unimpressed with her; she seemed as if she was acting the part of antiwar activist.

[kskiska]

24. None of the above. She's a flake.

Jane has "reinvented herself" as they say, countless times. First she was the cute ingenue. Then she married Roger Vadim and became Barbarella. After that she married Tom Hayden and became politically active, which led her to Hanoi. Next it was Jane the exercise guru. After making her fortune in exercise videos, she met and married Ted Turner and became the mogul's wife, living part-time in Montana. Ted divorced her, mostly because she'd already begun her next transformation, born-again Christian. Jane is Zelig.

[Cleita]

30. Just a little correction.

She was an activist before she met Tom Hayden. They met at a political event. Other than this, there would have been no way those two would have crossed paths if she hadn't gotten interested in politics.

[guitar man]

26. Traitor

Vietnam was the worst,or second worst(jury still out) foriegn policy decision and disaster this country has ever been involved in.
The war protesters were 100% right in opposing that war with every fiber of their being. However.....Jane Fonda's decision to do a morale tour for the enemy was 100% pure treason. It harmed the troops in ways that most will never be able to imagine.

Fuck her to hell forever!

[hedgetrimmer]

28. PAWN... they used her, it does not matter her intentions.

they used her actions to create how you were not supposed to be, creating patriotism (i.e. nationalism) around the issue of anyone speaking out... or questioning the policies of the u.s. government "made her a commie" ... people are brainwashed, so is this poll ... PAWN!

[Cleita]

29. Tom Hayden was my representative for many years.

I liked Jane and felt she knew she had done something foolish. I do understand why many felt she had betrayed them with that trip to Hanoi.

[Piperay]

32. Naive...

that sums it up for me.

[dreissig]

56. Naive, and Correct

Naive, yes. Try some more words here. Correct. Humanitarian. Responsible. Aware. Informed. Compassionate.

HENRY KISSINGER shot down a suggestion by President Richard Nixon that the US could use a nuclear bomb on Vietnam in 1972.A few weeks before ordering an escalation of the war there, Nixon matter-of-factly raised the idea of using a nuclear bomb with national security adviser, Kissinger. The notion was quickly vetoed.

Nixon's abrupt suggestion, buried in 500 hours of tapes released yesterday at the National Archives, came after Kissinger laid out a variety of options for stepping up the war, such as attacking power plants and docks, in an April 1972, conversation in the executive office building.

''I'd rather use the nuclear bomb,'' Nixon responded.

''That, I think, would just be too much,'' Kissinger replied.

''The nuclear bomb. Does that bother you?'' Nixon asked. ''I just want you to think big.''

The following month, Nixon ordered the biggest escalation of the war since 1968.

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2002/03/01/story24043.asp

[SonofMass]

35. All I can say is................

Go for the BURN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bandit]

36. I said neither ~ She was a dumb little girl

Yes what she did was wrong and I'm sure if you asked her today if she would like to relive that moment she would not do the same things over. She was caught up in the frenzy that was happening within the anti-war movement. She made a huge mistake but I forgive her and I was in the Nam.

[dreissig]

54. Caught Up in a Frenzy

Nixon was bombing the hell out of cities in the North, actions so barbaric that he should have been indicted as a war criminal. Fonda went to North Vietnam to express apologies on behalf of those Americans who still retained some humanity. She did the right thing.

Americans are still traumatized by the attacks on September 11th. North Vietnam went through a sustained bombing campaign in which each day was September 11th. Jane Fonda helped put a stop to it.

[pippin]

63. Yup!

Politically under educated but publicity seeking. Now she's a fundamentalist christian!!

[David__77]

37. Better than Charlton Heston!

I'll take her any day over any conservative, that's for sure. She's far less "treasonous" than the so-called commander-in-chief.

[banana republican]

38. AT LEASE SHE WENT TO VIET NAM

Junior didn't....

eom

[FlaGranny]

39. Jane Fonda is not unlike

many on this board, but she had the money and the fame to make the news. I think the film of her sitting on that (I think) antiaircraft gun was what did her in. That was shocking, even to many who did not agree with the war. I don't think she was a traitor, though. I think she was a little misguided about how she handled things. A patriot? In the sense that she was speaking out for what she believed in, maybe. I really don't think of her as either a patriot or a traitor.

I like Jane Fonda. I like all the Fondas.

[dreissig]

53. It Needed to be Done

War criminal Nixon needed to be stopped, and Fonda helped do that. Imagine an America so morally insensitive that we bomb crowded cities and nobody sticks their neck out to object.

I'm glad Jane Fonda expressed our apologies to the Vietnamese. Nixon should have been arrested for what he did. Instead, Americans re-elected him by a landslide.

[cprise]

64. She's a Born-Again Christian now

Maybe we'll see a Ministry of Faith-Based Excercise:

Buns of Salvation :D

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Neither. She was a courageous woman who defied the "patriots".

The "patriots" who told us that Vietnamese peasants were our "enemy" and deserved to die. That American lives should be sacrificed so that LBJ could prove he was a good anti-Communist and so that Nixon could be elected on the promise of "Peace with Honor".

To hell with "patriotism" and the fools that buy into it.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." - Schopenhauer

[noonwitch]

43. I think that she did commit treason when she went to Vietnam

but I don't think she's a traitor now. I think the Vietnam War was wrong, but she was wrong to cross the line from protesting our actions to helping the vietcong.

[dreissig]

47. Aiding the Enemy

If it's treason to oppose the bombing of cities in North Vietnam, it must be loyalty to support it. I'm glad Fonda traveled there to tell those people how many disloyal Americans there were. It was the right thing to do.

[David Zephyr]

59. Thank You for Putting the Correct Perspective to This Dreissig.

Three million Indo-Chinese died because of the U.S.'s illegal (yes, illegal) war in Vietnam.

I pointed out here recently at the DU that if the Vietnam War Wall Memorial in Washinton, D.C. were to include the names of those dead as well that the Wall at its present length would stand 55 stories high casting a sober shadow over the Capitol.

Jane Fonda's apartment was bugged by the C.I.A. (illegally, although the Patriot Act would have made it legal then), she was harrassed beyond belief for standing up against the War which was supported by the entire U.S. Establishment including the Corporations, the Churches and the Media.

[Poseidon]

49. traitor

Jane Fonda is definitely a traitor. She disputed the accounts of our POWs, letting them get beat up. I'd like to punch her fucking face in, and I'm a pretty mild-mannered guy. :mad:

[dreissig]

52. Mild Mannered Guy

I'd like to punch her fucking face in . . .

[Poseidon]

66. whatever

i feel really bad for dean. not. :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. Been stoking up on your Testeronios?

How heroic of you to want to punch an old lady in the face.

[dreissig]

57. Not Heroic

Not heroic. Patriotic.

[Poseidon]

67. lame

you are an apologist for jane fonda. that is pathetic. where did you serve?

[David Zephyr]

61. You'd Like to Punch Jane Fonda In The Face?

I feel sorry for you.

[Poseidon]

68. hah

Save your sympathy for Howard Dean. He'll need it after tonight. :)

[Skittles]

60. misguided patriot

I think she was very naive

[durutti]

62. Other.

I won't say she's a "patriot", because I don't look positively upon that term. And she certainly was being either willfully deceptive or hopelessly naive in claiming that American GIs were being treated humanely.

If one defines "country" as the modern capitalist state and its ruling class, then yes, she was a traitor to the United States. But by that definition, treason against the United States is loyalty to humanity.

Yes, the way the Vietnamese treated American GIs was reprehensible. But there's no equivalence between the brutality of an oppressor nation on one hand, and the desperate acts of an oppressed nation on the other.

[Generic Other]

69. Here's my memory

I saw her at a "Fuck the Army" Rally in 1970. She, Donald Southerland and Country Joe McDonald were stumping the country performing for soldiers.

I didn't see the soldiers booing her that day. In fact they cheered at the anti-war, anti-fascist, anti-establishment message. These were guys who were about to get shipped out to Vietnam. Jane Fonda was no traitor. She was an American expressing her view which was shared by a lot of other Americans.

Most of those who attended the rally were being forced against their will to go to war. She spoke for many of them. They didn't have a voice.

Some GI I had befriended took me to the rally. He was about to get shipped out to Vietnam. No questions arose at the time about Fonda.

And Country Joe rocked. Ever heard a whole auditorium full of soldiers singing the FISH song? It takes on a whole different resonance.