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Michael Moore stands by his "deserter" remarks!

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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:46 AM
Original message
Michael Moore stands by his "deserter" remarks!
I just received this in my email. Guess old Tim Russert owes someone an apology!

You Say Deserter, I Say More Dessert... by Michael Moore
January 27, 2004

Friends,

I would like to apologize for referring to George W. Bush as a "deserter." What I meant to say is that George W. Bush is a deserter, an election thief, a drunk driver, a WMD liar and a functional illiterate. And he poops his pants. In fact, he “shot a man in Reno just to watch him die."

Actually, what I meant to say up in New Hampshire last week was that "We're going to have Bush for dessert come November!" I'm always mixing up "dessert" and "desert" -- I'm sure many of you have that problem.

Well, well, well. As George W. would say, "It's time to smoke ‘em out of their hole!" Thanks to my "humorous" introduction of Wesley Clark 10 days ago in New Hampshire -- and the lughead way the no-sense-of-humor media has covered it -- there were 15 million hits this weekend on my website. Everyone who visited the site got to read the truth about Bush not showing up for National Guard duty.

The weird thing about all this is that during my routine I never went into any details about Bush skipping out while in the Guard (it's not like it's the biggest issue on my mind or facing America these days!) I was just attempting my best impersonation of that announcer guy for the World Wrestling Federation, asking the cheering crowd if they would like to see a smackdown ("debate") which I called "The Generaaal Versus The Deserterrrr!!" (You can watch it here -- hardly anyone in the media has shown this clip because viewers would suddenly see the context of my comments.)

When the press heard me use that word "deserter," though, the bells and whistles went off, for this was one of those stories they knew they had ignored -- and now it was rearing its ugly, truthful head on a very public stage. Without a single other word from me other than the d-word, they immediately got so defensive that it looked to many viewers like they—the press—maybe had something to hide. After all, when I called Bush a deserter, how did they know I wasn't referring to how he has deserted the 43 million Americans who have no health coverage? Why didn't they assume I was talking about how Bush is a deserter because he has deserted the working people of this country (who have lost 3 million jobs since he's taken office)? Why wasn't it obvious to them that I was pointing out how Bush had deserted our constitution and Bill of Rights as he tries to limit freedom of speech and privacy rights for law-abiding citizens?

Instead, they have created the brouhaha over Bush's military record, often without telling their audience what the exact charges are. It seems all they want to do is to get Clark or me -- or you -- to shut up. "We have never investigated this and so we want you to apologize for bringing it up!" Ha ha ha.

Well, I'm glad they have gone nuts over it. Because here we have a Commander in Chief --who just took off while in uniform to go work for some Republican friend of his dad's -- now sending our kids over to Iraq to die while billions are promised to Halliburton and the oil companies. Twenty percent of them are National Guard and Reserves (and that number is expected to double during the year). They have been kept in Iraq much longer than promised, and they have not been given the proper protection. They are sitting ducks.

What if any of them chose to do what Bush did back in the early 70s -- just not show up? I've seen Republican defenders of Bush this week say, “Yeah, but he made up the time later.” So, can today's National Guardsmen do the same thing -- just say, when called up to go to Iraq, "Um, I'm not going to show up, I'll make up the time later!"? Can you imagine what would happen? Of course, none of them are the son of a Congressman, like young Lt. Bush was back in 1972.

Today, MoveOn.org has put together it's response to this issue, and I would love to reprint it here. It lays out all the facts about Bush and the remaining unanswered questions about where he went for many, many months:

Here are what appear to be the known facts, laid out recently in considerable detail and documentation by retired pilot and Air National Guard First Lt. Robert A. Rogers, and in a 2003 book, “The Lies of George W. Bush,” by David Corn.

1. George W. Bush graduated from Yale in 1968 when the war in Vietnam was at its most deadly and the military draft was in effect. Like many of his social class and age, he sought to enter the National Guard, which made Vietnam service unlikely, and fulfill his military obligation. Competition for slots was intense; there was a long waiting list. Bush took the Air Force officer and pilot qualification tests on Jan. 17, 1968, and scored the lowest allowed passing grade on the pilot aptitude portion.

2. He, nevertheless, was sworn in on May 27, 1968, for a six-year commitment. After a few weeks of basic training, Bush received an appointment as a second lieutenant – a rank usually reserved for those completing four years of ROTC or 18 months active duty service. Bush then went to flight school and trained on the F-102 interceptor fighter jet. Fighter pilots were in great demand in Vietnam at the time, but Bush wound up serving as a “weekend warrior” in Houston, where his father’s congressional district was centered.

A Houston Chronicle story published in 1994, quoted in Corn’s book, has Bush saying: “I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes.”

3. Sometime after May 1971, young Lt. Bush stopped participating regularly in Guard activities. According to Texas Air National Guard records, he had fewer than the required flight duty days and was short of the minimum service owed the Guard. Records indicate that Bush never flew after May 1972, despite his expensive training and even though he still owed the National Guard two more years.

4. On May 24, 1972, Bush asked to be transferred to an inactive reserve unit in Alabama, where he also would be working on a Republican senate candidate’s campaign. The request was denied. For months, Bush apparently put in no time at all in Guard service. In August 1972, Bush was grounded -- suspended from flying duties -- for failing to submit to an annual physical exam. (Why wouldn't he take this exam from a doctor?)

5. During his 2000 presidential campaign, Bush’s staff said he recalled doing duty in Alabama and then returning to Houston for still more duty. But the commander of the Montgomery, AL, unit where Bush said he served told the Boston Globe that he had no recollection of Bush – son of a congressman – ever reporting, nor are there records, as there should be, supporting Bush’s claim. Asked at a press conference in Alabama on June 23, 2000 what duties he had performed as a Guardsman in that state, Bush said he could not recall, “but I was there.”

6. In May, June and July, 1973, Bush suddenly started participating in Guard activities back in Houston again – pulling 36 days at Ellington Air Base in that short period. On Oct. 1, 1973, eight months short of his six-year service obligation and scheduled discharge, Bush apparently was discharged with honors from the Texas Air National Guard (eight months short of his six-year commitment). He then went to Harvard Business School.

Documents supporting these reports, released under Freedom of Information Act requests, appear along with Rogers’ article on the web at http://democrats.com/display.cfm?id=154.

In the absence of full disclosure by the President or his supporters, only the President and perhaps a few family or other close associates know the whole truth. And they’re not talking.

Bush was apparently absent without official leave from his assigned military service for as little as seven months (New York Times) or as much as 17 months (Boston Globe) during a time when 500,000 American troops were fighting the Vietnam War. The Army defines a “deserter” -- also known as a DFR, for “dropped from rolls” – as one who is AWOL 31 days or more: www-ari.army.mil/pdf/s51.pdf.

Well, there you have it. Someone got some special treatment. And now that special someone believes he has the right to conduct a war -- using other not-so-special people's lives.

My friends, I always call it like I see it. I don't pussyfoot around. Sometimes the truth is hard to take. The media conglomerates are too afraid to take this on. I understand. But I'm not. That's my job. And I'll continue to do it.

And when I'm wrong, like the thing about Bush pooping his pants, I'll say so.

Yours,

Michael Moore

mmflint@aol.com

www.michaelmoore.com

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trag Donating Member (286 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. I wanna...
Be like Mike!! :) You go boy!!!!
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. I only wish Clark had backed him up on this.
Instead Clark has taken the politically expedient route. While I believe that the media is unfairly overplaying this, Clark's reaction has been a major turn-off for me.
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Dark Star Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. ?
Clark said whether W was a deserter or AWOL is semantics; the fact is he wasn't where he was supposed to be.

Whazzamatta w/that?
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. He specifically said on an interview on NPR last night
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 11:19 AM by Finnfan
That he did not stand by Michael Moore's statement. He had an opportunity, as a General, to bring this matter to the forefront, and he has refused.

It is NOT "semantics". It is treason. Moore has the guts to say that, Clark has not had the guts to back him up.

On edit: Here is a link to that interview. Scroll most of the way down the page:

NPR
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Good
The Washington Press Whores will keep asking him and asking him, so they'll keep saying ...

"Did you say BUSH was AWOL?"

"Did you say BUSH was a DESERTER?"

And people will start to wonder.

And what do you think that will do to the issue?

Clark ain't no dummy.

--bkl
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. It would get much, much MORE press if Clark said
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 11:24 AM by Finnfan
"Yes, the evidence shows that George W. Bush WAS a deserter". If you don't think that's the case, then you don't understand the press very well.
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MMT Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #19
85. I'm not sure but I think AWOL is a misdemeanor but desertion is a felony
and in time of declared war, a capital felony.

If Bush committed a felony, why didn't he do prison time? Why weren't the cops even looking for him? Was someone covering up for him?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. I was just WAITING for this!!!
:party: :bounce: :toast: :bounce: :party:
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. In fact, he “shot a man in Reno just to watch him die."
what does that mean ?
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I was wondering that, too
I think it's from a movie or TV show, but I'm not sure...
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dumpster_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
55. You are KIDDING ME! Man....I AM getting old, I guess
I hear the train a comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since, I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison,
And time keeps draggin' on,
But that train keeps a-rollin',
On down to San Antone.

When I was just a baby,
My Mama told me, "Son,
Always be a good boy,
Don't ever play with guns,"
But I shot a man in Reno,
Just to watch him die,
When I hear that whistle blowin',
I hang my head and cry.

I bet there's rich folks eatin',
In a fancy dining car,
They're probably drinkin' coffee,
And smokin' big cigars,
But I know I had it comin',
I know I can't be free,
But those people keep a-movin',
And that's what tortures me.

Well, if they freed me from this prison,
If that railroad train was mine,
I bet I'd move out over a little,
Farther down the line,
Far from Folsom Prison,
That's where I want to stay,
And I'd let that lonesome whistle,
Blow my Blues away.
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Frances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. That's a line from a Johnny Cash song
n/t
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Johnny Cash, "Folsom Prison Blues"
Also, I believe someone actually made this comment on a thread in DU last night!
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Az Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. It's a reference to a song
Johnny Cash's Fulsom Prison Blues. Its a ref to a man so mean he shot a man just to watch him die.
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Champion Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. It's a line from a Johnny Cash song
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. lyrics from "Folsom Prison Blues", by Johnny Cash
I hear the train a comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend,
And I ain't seen the sunshine,
Since, I don't know when,
I'm stuck in Folsom Prison,
And time keeps draggin' on,
But that train keeps a-rollin',
On down to San Antone.

When I was just a baby,
My Mama told me, "Son,
Always be a good boy,
Don't ever play with guns,"
But I shot a man in Reno,
Just to watch him die,

When I hear that whistle blowin',
I hang my head and cry.

I bet there's rich folks eatin',
In a fancy dining car,
They're probably drinkin' coffee,
And smokin' big cigars,
But I know I had it comin',
I know I can't be free,
But those people keep a-movin',
And that's what tortures me.

Well, if they freed me from this prison,
If that railroad train was mine,
I bet I'd move out over a little,
Farther down the line,
Far from Folsom Prison,
That's where I want to stay,
And I'd let that lonesome whistle,
Blow my Blues away.

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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
46. where's the copyright, author and publishing info on that?
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dno Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #5
21. Its a joke!
Thats a line from an old Johnny Cash song. The Neocons will analyze every stinking word that comes out of Moore's mouth looking for something to use against Clark.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I know it's a joke
I know it's a joke, but was just wondering where it came from...

Welcome to DU, by the way.
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dno Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thanks!
For the welcome! This is a fun place!
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Salkin Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. We've got to quit this
Like it or not...the blue blood americans between Manhattan and Maui don't like this guy and to keep justifying stuff like this is not helping our cause. Moore's justification of his comments is about like *'s justification of WMD's. We can do better!!
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. The only difference is there were NO WMDs.
Bush WAS a deserter.
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curlyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. the truth needs no justification
Why avoid the truth? The Republicans have no problem airing every half-real piece of dirty laundry in our cupboard......why give them a free ride....especially when it is TRUE!!!!!!
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RBHam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Quit what?
Telling the truth?
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Blue blood Americans??
My blood is red, hot and I love Michael Moore and hate Bush!
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
17. Whether the Blue-Bloods...
Don't like this or not matters not one whit in the face of hard truths.

If said blue-bloods have cognitive problems, perhaps a little cognitive therapy is just what the doctor ordered.
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #17
32. If said blue-bloods have cognitive problems, it's probably inbreeding.
And we should NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER stop asking questions and stop holding these people accountable. EVER. We have to. SOMEBODY has to. The media's certainly derelict on this. (My new favorite word of the day - "derelict.") And forget Congress. The republi-CON machine there just stomps on lone voices like Henry Waxman who dare to ask uppity questions. BOY do we EVER need our majority back!
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. What's this 'our cause' shit?
- It's our RIGHT as Americans to know if the so-called 'commander in Chief' broke the law by deserting his post during war.

- This is not about party politics...though you would like to make it so. This is about honor, duty, responsibility and yes...accountability. Certainly you're not suggesting that Bush* is ABOVE THE LAW?
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CatWoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. here WE go with that WE again
BTW -- Moore is not justifying his claims, he's expanding.

His claims need no justification.

The truth needs justification? Clarification: yes.

Justification? No.
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Cat Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. lmao. "We" should really quit.
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 11:25 AM by Cat Atomic
Sure- whatever.
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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I will quit reading Michael Moore when...
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 12:31 PM by Bush_Eats_Beef
...you pry his books from my cold dead hands.

This is America. I don't care if the truth comes from Michael Moore, the Olsen Twins, or a striped ass baboon.



Today's question: "Who is we"

:-)
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Virgil Donating Member (410 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
33. Talking the truth- that is a good thing
The media attacked Moore and he responded with the context of the statement that he made in a comical way. Now he gives us the context of the statement where he was jovial and says it is true anyway. Like, dude, don't you know the truth.

Thanks for putting this up. Do you think Peter Jennings will report that Bush was a deserter and apologize for asking the question to Clark that brought this up? Not a chance. They ought to change ABC's "World News Tonight" to "American News and Entertainment." The news is meant to have everyone looking inward.
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JPace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. "We've got to quit this"
"blue blood"?
"We can do better"?

I hope Michael Moore keeps up the good
work, as for blue blood, I have never
seen any, doesn't that refer to aristocracy
or something? A rather strange statement
that seems outdated. As for doing
better.....we are getting better at exposing
AWOL's inadequacies for his office all the
time.

You go MIKE!

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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. the blue bloods that hate moore
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 01:17 PM by uncle ray
are the same ones who voted for bush* just because they thought Gore was gonna take their guns away! people that are stubbornly blind to the facts and real issues in their lives. sooner or later, they may see the truth.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
38. Umm, what?
Sure we can do better. We can provide a ton of documentation that backs up Michael Moore's statement whereas the Bush admin can't provide jack to back up the WMD claims.

Oh and by the way, the vast majority of Americans between Manhattan and Maui are red-blooded. Bush is the blue-blood, and it's why he apparently thinks he is above the law. If you are going to use the term "we" you might want to make sure you're not in a group of exactly one.
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populistmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. Welcome to DU!
:eyes: (sarcasm)
Have fun on your (extremely) brief stay.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
42. Truth, whether paletable or not, needs no justification
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
49. what's with the "hall monitors" censoring
and whining everytime we vent our spleens over what that crook in the white house is doing?

If you don't like to read it, then DON'T READ IT! The concern for what everyone else is doing is far eclipsed by the attention you need to pay to what *you* are doing.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
50. Nice try, but these "claims" are supported by facts and evidence
While Bush's claims are without proof or merit.

Also, I might add that Moore's comments have not resulted in any deaths. But Bush's lies have resulted in thousands of deaths, including over 500 American lives.
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bushisanidiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. Damned Good! Keep The Deserter Story In The News!
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 10:56 AM by bushisanidiot
maybe more people will check out the facts and find that president AWOL joined the national guard soley to avoid combat in vietnam and then he snuck out of his military duty for an entire year to go party in some campaign in alabama! his last name is what has kept him from landing in jail for all the crap he's pulled!

the cheerleader will be ejected in November!!!
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
11. After a few weeks he got a "Special Commission"
What did he do to deserve such an honor. An honor usually reserved for "Battlefield Commission". How did Bush* get his commission with NO Training
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TheBlob Donating Member (805 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
25. Great letter
But he still should have singled out Russert and called him on the carpet for that 'Moore was joking' lie.


Don't let Russert get away with that!
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. Here's the email I just sent him:
Dear Michael,

I read and HUGELY ENJOYED your commentary about george w. bush being a deserter. Which as anyone who's looked at the facts will verify - is true. But you forgot something.

He didn't just desert then.

My most enduring image of bush-the-Deserter came on the morning of 9/11, when we witnessed the worst dereliction of duty in our history. Not only did he sit on his ass and read a kiddie book long after being informed that we'd been attacked, but then he promptly proceeded to DISAPPEAR FOR HOURS. Bush deserted all of America, yet again, for much of the day, because he was busy flying all over the Sunbelt looking for a place to hide. All we got was Karen Hughes telling us that all was well, and some anchors on CNN wondering, out loud, "WHERE is the president?"

Next time you bring up the deserter issue, remember it was just part of a pattern of behavior.

Thank you for being a beacon of truth in a fog of lies.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Excellent point! He is a deserter in more ways than one. n/t

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GregW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
66. And then after he ran away (like he always does) ...
... the Republicans had the AUDACITY to try and sell pictures of Brave Sir Bush as he RAN AWAY on Air Force One to raise funds! Talk about profiteering from a terrorist act!
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Edge Donating Member (728 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
31. Way to go MM!
Keep telling everyone the Commander in Chief is a deserter, coward, thief, jackass, liar, and etc... Hopefully it'll sink into people's heads and they'll remember come November!
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
35. Email Pig Russert again and demand he apologize to Moore... MTP@NBC.com
Russert... Once a media whore, always a media whore.

:cry:
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tibbiit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Bush during that time
Was merely starting work on National Guard Program Related Activities!
Give the guy a break.

I must now go work on my Masterbation Program-Related Activities, which necessitates me shelving my Grocery Shopping Program-Related Activities for later activation this afternoon.
First things first!
tib
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #35
75. maybe not--Butthurt may have been referring to this:
(from Michael's message above)

snip
"Well, well, well. As George W. would say, "It's time to smoke ‘em out of their hole!" Thanks to my "humorous" introduction of Wesley Clark 10 days ago in New Hampshire -- and the lughead way the no-sense-of-humor media has covered it -- there were 15 million hits this weekend on my website...."

snip

maybe Tim was sent a copy of this before the Sunday MTP in question.
I dunno--I did a thorough search yesterday for anywhere Michael might have "admitted it was a joke" as Russert put it. Nothing comes close except for this.
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NoKingGeorge Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
40. Did Mike graduate from Journalism school?
Are there others? you know, investigative journalists, Editors, Owners ? Who are these people on TV? Are they graduates of talking head U ?
Thanks for your Patriotism Mike.
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
44. MM is a moron
Just scaring of swing voters with his ignorance.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Hey, know any good hairball remedies?
Since you're a vet....

Michael Moore hooks the "swing voters" with his humor, then they hear a bit of the message. Let the candidates take the high road, let the intellectuals fine-tune the prose.

And--what do you mean by "ignorance"?




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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. People who are "ignorant" are those voting for Bush
Gee, they are undecided about whether to vote for a stupid smallminded retard known to be an utter failure, fraud, and criminal.... But Michael Moore said something honest and they run away in fear of the truth?

Who the hell cares what such ignoramuses think? I would be ashamed to accept the votes of such stupid people.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. What ignorance?
Looks to me like the documented the case pretty well.
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
52. Kick for the PM crowd
:kick:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
53. Say it even LOUDER, Michael!
Tim Russert in service to his *corp masters, LIED TO EVERYONE who heard him. HE SIMPLY LIED to put out an "idea" on a massive scale, faxed to him by his *corp ÜberSLIME. Russert LIED to protect those who are decimating PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD.
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
54. Moore - the Ann Coulter of the left
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 07:33 PM by Adapter44
when you look at Ann and view the alienation she inflicts on the repub party (while hard right repubs can't get it), just look at Moore and remember he alienates those not on the hard left in much the same way. Moore should just shut his mouth until after november. He does more damage than good.

on edit: Not exactly talking about this particular comment either... Just read his writings a bit and you'll see what I mean...
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
58. There is no way you can compare Moore to Coulter.
Moore may not be in the center, but he is not anywhere near as far out as Coulter. At least Moore does not advocate violence and terrorism against his political opponents. The same cannot be said for Coulter.

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #54
86. Does MM say Repubs should be round up and shot?
Coulter does say such things about Lefties.

Coulter is a verified lyar - as the 'footnotes' in her own book show.
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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
56. Gotta Say It
...how is this is different than what Clinton was doing?

This deserter bull shit is getting annoying. Coercing candidates to agree with Moore will only alienate the swing.
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Adapter44 Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. It is not that we shouldn't bring up Bush's military record
It is that we shouldn't use Moore to do it. He has a massive potential to alienate the swing vote (that we NEED this election). Yea, the far left will love him. But who cares? They are already on board. He can only push voters away at this point.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Clinton does not claim to have served in the military.
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 08:10 PM by The Night Owl
Bush wants everyone to think that he wanted to go to Vietnam and fight. The truth is that when Bush was faced with the draft, he used his father's influence to get into the National Guard so he could avoid Vietnam. To make matters worse, Bush had the gall to skip out on a year of that National Guard duty that may well have saved his ass.

True, Clinton never served, but at least he never tried to portray himself as a warrior.

Perhaps, you forgot about the magic moment pictured below...








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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Please tell us what you think Clinton was doing?
Please tell us what it is you think Clinton was doing.

I am curious concerning your question and wish to be enlightened.


Enlightened? That is the correct term?

180
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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. The same thing my dad did...
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 09:12 PM by san antonio
...doing everything he could to dodge the draft and Vietnam. Calling bush a deserter for what he did while turning a blind eye the draft dodgers is ignorance.

Cut the 'englightened' bull shit, I'm pointing out the idiocy of the bush hatred and what it's going to do. I know just as well as I hope you do that Moore is a polarizing force like Coulter, Hannity, and O'Reilly.

There's a certain level of attacking that works. However, calling bushie a deserter is going to turn people off. The conspiracy theories and other bull on this site is GREAT material for repukes.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Um, Clinton is not part of the issue here. We are talking about a monkey
and several war veterens. Dems go to the battles, repugs
run from them. Leave Clinton out. It sort of marks your
commentary, you know? Moore = Coulter? Not in this universe.
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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Does the phrase...
"Moore = Coulter? Not in this universe."

Does the phrase one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter mean anything to you?

It's the same idea, we're just not talking about suicide bombers, we're talking about compulsive blow-hards.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. People are entitled to their opinions about draft dodgers...
Regardless of what people feel about draft dodgers, the fact remains that Bush tries to portray himself as a brave warrior who has a complete and satisfactory military record. The truth is that Bush is a coward and his military record is far from complete and satisfactory.

What we are trying to do is expose the fact that Bush is not what he claims to be. After Bush is exposed, people can make up their own minds on whether his draft dodging matters.

The point is to expose the truth. How can you not understand that?



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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. I do see the point.
However, how does calling him a deserter and then expecting a candidate who is going to need the moderate vote help? It's going to turn more people off of him as a 'hater' than it's going to attract.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #65
82. George Bush is a lying Neo Nazi Proto Fascist pig.

Is that hateful enough for you?
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. Clinton? Good grief. In America you can say what you want and dems
are dems because we don't goose step to the same tune.
If you want homogeneity of message, be a repug. Otherwise,
relax and let the comments flow.
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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. Okay, let's all vote Green then.
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 09:53 PM by san antonio
While we're at it, let's just get the Green party to put up a candidate and we can all vote for him or her just to show the Democratic party that we don't fall in lock-step. That'll sure show 'em. I mean, look how well that worked back in.....oh shit...my bad.

My point is, yes bushie is a scum sucking piece of shit. However, calling him a 'deserter' and then coercing Clark into agreeing with it isn't going to win anybody over to the Democratic side.

Put the facts out there and let everyone know what he did to dodge Vietname. That way, the issue is about him and how terrible he has done. When you call him a deserter the issue then the issue becomes about you and how much you hate him and how you have become 'irrational liberals'.

DU and the opinions here are in no way the moderate view in America. People who are pressing Clark to agree with Moore have to realize that the middle is what he is fighting for and this 'deserter' non-sense is going to help push more and more of them away.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Why do you have a problem with the term "deserter" as applied to Bush?
"Put the facts out there and let everyone know what he did to dodge Vietname."

The facts have been out there for a long time and they indicate that Bush is a deserter.

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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The same reason I'm not an "America Haters"
For the same reason Coulter is a lying bitch for calling liberals treasonous, deserters, and America Haters. The same reason using the word terrorist to describe protestors is pure stupidity. In those idiots minds, their claims are true as well. This hyperbole bull shit that has become so popular is annoying as hell and turns non-far-left and non-far-right people off of politics.

Go ahead, keep making sure everyone knows how much you hate bush and don't worry about winning elections. Hopefully, the Dems will get somebody in when his next term is up.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Here is your homework...
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 10:16 PM by The Night Owl
Read the definition of Desertion at the following website...

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/10/subtitles/a/parts/ii/chapters/47/subchapters/x/sections/section%5F885.html

After you are done absorbing that information, report back to us and explain to us how, in your view, the title of Deserter does not apply to Bush. Good luck... You will need it.

You seem to believe the charge that Bush skipped out on a year of National Guard duty and yet you draw the line just short of calling Bush a deserter. I just don't get that.



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san antonio Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. Dude, get the point.
Edited on Tue Jan-27-04 10:36 PM by san antonio
I don't care WHAT you want to call bush. If you sleep better at night by labeling bush a deserter, feel free to, that's your right. Go file the deserter charges against him yourself instead of trying to prove it to some schmuck like me on DU. It doesn't really matter what I think, I'm going to vote for the whoever the Dem candidate is because I know it's the best shot we have at getting bush out of office.

However, the average joe voter is going to see MM calling bush a deserter and think, "oh, those silly liberals can't do anything but hate bush". They're not going to think "oh my gosh, how could the military have missed a deserter for so long? why was't bush put in jail? i better send my tax refund in and vote for a Democrat right away". Don't be like these idiots that are trying to coerce Clark into agreeing with MM. There is a place and a time for MM and it sure as hell isn't in a national election.

Like it or not, the moderates are where the votes Democrats need are. Clinton knew that in 92 and 96 and if you don't think bush knows it now you're helping put another nail in the coffin of the next four years.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #80
83. You're stuck in the past.

The moderate middle doesn't matter a damn.

The conservowackos have pulled the country far far right,
so that that where the center used to be is now considered
'left'.

Thermodynamics takes over in that any action generates
an equal and opposite reaction. The energy, anger, and
unity of the Republican base has beaten us every single
election (caveat 2000*).

It was way past time for the left to react in a similarly
angry and passionate way. So, it is time for the DLC to
go bye bye bye and for the radical middle to take over.
If the 'moderate middle' doesn't like it, well, we don't
need them anyway.

We will use every single bit of ammunition we have
against these evil bastards, and we will win.

We have to. The country's future is at stake. We have
right and truth on our side.

I'm starting to think maybe you can't handle the truth.


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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
60. Cheers
to Michael More! :toast: :thumbsup:
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
61. Does this "swing" voter normally flip a coin to decide who to vote for?
The last time I swung on a picket fence, I lost my virginity.

I am sick of hearing I must appease weakbrained ninnies who don't seem to have developed a conscience or a consistent world view.

If I can't figure out what's in my own interest in an election this critical to the survival of my country, I shouldn't bother to vote, because I am a menace to the country, not a responsible citizen.

There's only one outcome I am interested in come November. Anyone dithering around about whether they atre voting for a Dem or Bush has a bigger problem than Michael Moore to deal with. Don't admit to my face. I am not being silent or friendly. To strangers. To family. Or to friends.

And I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way.

There are no swing voters in a civil war.
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Snappy Donating Member (322 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. Michael More/Coulter
The diff? She is a blatant LIAR. Michael tells the truth.

Thank you, Michael.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. And she's friggin stupid
and a loser
and dizzy
and an inconsistent unethical hypocrit
and a worthless sleazy trashtalker



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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
64. Michael Moore ROCKS
:yourock: :kick: Mr. Moore >> Bu$$h is a deserter !!<<

watch for trolls :eyes:
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
77. The media distorted something said by a left-winger?
NO WAY!!!!
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Kenneth Donating Member (101 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
79. A small technicality, but...
on Mikes' fifth point, he calls dubya a "– son of a congressman –" circa 1971, or 72. Wasn't George H. W. out of congress after the 1970 election? Deputy CIA director by then?
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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #79
81. No. Once a congressman, always a congressman. That's why there's..
Presidents Ford, Carter, Reagan, etc.

And does it really matter what job poppy had at the time? I can't see how it would.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
84. Why is it the bushites NEVER refute the charges?
I've seen quite a bit of crap about how we should forget about the issue, let it drop, not mention it, let bygones be bygones. I've seen Moore attacked ad hominem, ad nauseum. I've seen all manner of concern about how this issue would "alienate the swing voters".

But one thing I've NEVER seen is a solid explanation of how bush was not AWOL for an entire fucking YEAR, when he ditched those 36 days of National Guard luxury service in Alabama, May 1972 to May 1973.

Well, I'm not one to say that absence of evidence is absolute evidence of absence, but in the long term, when a very simple explanation should suffice to answer this point, and it remains untouched...

All bush (or a low-level spokesman) has to do is say, "I/bush served on the following days, and here are the records to prove it," and then hand over the attendence sheets that show him reporting for duty, or even making up that very large amount of apparent missed duty. It's very easy. He even "wrote" a whole farking BOOK, A Charge to Keep, about his alleged "service", so these documents would make an excellent appendix for the second edition.

Why is it so hard, aren't they available to the office of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF? That way, instead of coming on this forum, pissing and moaning about how "Democrats shouldn't bring this up during the election", people could actually come here and say, "George W. Bush was NOT AWOL for the following reasons: blah, blah, blah, blah, end of story."

Instead, the message I'm getting is, "Don't bring it up. It's a dead story. Anyone who mentions it is a kook." And the more of that whispering campaign bullshit I see, in the absence of any reasoned argument, the more I get to thinking that someone close to W could get VERY SERIOUSLY HURT if people across the nation started asking this question, en masse. And no one has done a better job of raising this question lately than Michael Moore and Wes Clark (perhaps unintentionally, but he played his part admirably).

I don't go with every hunch I have, but this one seems to be extra hunchy, if you know what I mean.
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