Did Clinton help China acquire ICBM technology?

[aeon flux]

I'm not very familiar with this issue, but this is the response I got when pointing out that Reagan/Bush Sr. were chief suppliers of Saddam's WMDs.

-------------------------
Other guy: I would say that Bill Clintons supplying of WMD technology to china is far far worse.

Me: China had nuclear missiles and bio/chemical weapons long before Clinton took office.

Other guy: True, but they did not have the capabilities for ICBM's which what Clinton gave to them.
--------------------------

How should I respond? Is it true that the Clinton Administration played a significant role in China's ICBM capabilty? (ie: selling China supercomputers that have dual-use purposes?).

[arcane1]

1. is China an "immediate" threat that we have to go to war over?

sounds like they are desperate for any excuse to save their savior. If China's weapons are "far worse" then why aren't we over there disarming them instead of Iraq? Why isn't Bush prattling about Chinese Rape Rooms (tm), mass graves, liberation, al Qaeda support, etc? Is your friend saying that China is a greater threat to us? If so, what the hell are we doing in Iraq?


and besides:

1) Nothing that Clinton did has anything to do with the rightness or wrongness of Reagan/Bush supporting Saddam. Clinton and China are irrelevant to that topic, and your friend is just trying to divert attention from Bush's wrongness by bringing up the Clenis. Don't let him.

2) if their best defense is "Clinton did it too" then they have already lost, and are just kicking and screaming now.

I should add- I have no idea if the person's China claim is true or not, but they are succeeding in diverting you away from the actual, current issue: Iraq

[aeon flux]

5. Yes, a classic straw man argument

[Viking12]

17. Technically

it would be a red herring, but an illogical argument nonetheless. :)

[Redleg]

21. You are correct- and welcome to DU Viking12.

EOM

[newyawker99]

26. Hi Viking12!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[EXE619K]

2. That's just BS.

China could have, and probably would have, gotten ICBM tech from Russia or other developed nations such as France and Germany.

and in terms of political alliances, if the threat from China is so great, why is the Bush admin. cozying up to China so much?

[aeon flux]

3. Thanks guys

that definitely helped.

I also now remrmber that Wen Ho Lee was ultimately acquitted and released after being jailed on trumped up charges of nuclear espionage. There's much to suggest Mr. Lee was instead a victim of racial profiling/scapegoatng.

[jpak]

28. The W88 warhead technology, if it was really "stolen"

was stolen during the Reagan administration - not the Clinton administration.

[MattNC]

4. i believe...

he did, but it's continued under Bush.

[Zero Gravitas]

6. Not quite

It was freeper fake scandal back when they were trying to make China The Enemy (remember that?).

My understanding is that the Clinton administration allowed American corporations (Boeing possibly?) to get contracts to work on Chinese commercial satellite launching rockets. Some of this technology might have been applicable to ICBMs (or not, I'm not a rocket scientist.)

Of course the freepers searching around for anything they could use against him seized on this and tried to spin it as "Clinton selling missile technology to the gaddam dirty commies".

China does not have a huge number of ICBMs and the ones they have are liquid fueled, which means that they cannot be fired quickly (they can't be kept with fuel on board, they fuel has to be brought to the launch pad and transfered to the rocket, a process that takes many hours if not days.)

Whether or not it was a good idea to let Boeing (or whomever) sell technology to China is one thing, but it was not at all like the right wingers tried to portray it.

[papau]

8. Dept of Commerce approved Loral computer/Sat tracking software sale -

just as the same stuff had been approved under Reagan and Bush 41

In this case it went into the China Sat launch facility, along with a maintenance contract.

No one objected (I believe Bush43's Sec of Labor lobbied for it)

Later the smear was put out that the software could be modified to track our incoming missiles.

The media morph'd that into a China missile ability.

As with all things Clinton - assume Bill was a horney unfaith to wife Saint working for all American's 24/7/365, esp. the poor and middle class - and use that framework to judge any GOP claim.

[Nlighten1]

12. Richard Perle was involved in this...

I have a link somewhere but I can't recall what company Richard was working for.

[Bozita]

18. Richard Perle and his relationship with Loral Space and Communications

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/29/business/29PERL.html?ex=1075352400&en=fc29a9be7ab6c6e7&ei=5070

Adviser to U.S. Aided Maker of Satellites
By STEPHEN LABATON

WASHINGTON, March 28 — While he led an influential Pentagon advisory board, Richard N. Perle advised a major American satellite maker, Loral Space and Communications, as it faced government accusations that it improperly transferred rocket technology to China, administration officials said today.

Officials at the State Department said that the senior official considering how to resolve the rocket matter, Assistant Secretary Lincoln P. Bloomfield Jr., was contacted by Mr. Perle once or twice in the second half of 2001 on behalf of the company. At the time, Mr. Bloomfield, who heads the State Department's bureau of political-military affairs, and other officials were investigating accusations that Loral turned over expertise that significantly improved the reliability of China's nuclear missiles.

more, lots more...

[swinney]

7. China Technology--given by Reagan and Bush Sr

James Murray who was China expert on LA Times spent much time in China and wrote a tell all book --"About Face".

Reagan gave the chinese anything they wanted in military equipment according to that expert.
clarence swinney

[papau]

9. Indeed the Atomic "suitcase" bomb was a Reagan 83 transfer to China

that showed up in Science Lit in China in 87/88 - and was discovered by us in 92.

And Clinton did not call Reagan and Bush41 traitors when it became known that the secrets transfer had occurred on their watch.

[aeon flux]

10. Shot back with some of the comments here

didn't see a rebuttal from him in a while.
I think he surrendered the debate.

I guess he finally saw the light.

[bleedingheart]

11. Ask your friend why Nixon opened the dialog with China

and how it only got better for the communists after that point...
Hell they have most-favored nation trading status...yet little commie-cuba gets trade embargos...

[KG]

13. heck, the defense contractors are the biggest sellers of secrets.

then they can get another contract for a counter to the secrets they just sold.

rinse. repeat.

[PsN2Wind]

14. You might point out to your "friend"

that Bush allowed the Chinese to pirate much of our surveillance technology by playing "nice" when they brought down our aircraft right after assuming office. The administration acted as if we had no leverage to use to demand the return. By my reasoning, anyone with which you have a trade deficit of hundreds of billions dollars, you have leverage with.
Hell, I coulda solved that. I would simply have told the Chinese that the next container ship that crossed the dateline better have our crew and aircraft on it, INTACT, or none would be unloaded in this country or allowed to dock.

[DrBB]

15. YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS

Tell your right wing buddies about Katrina Leung. A prominent GOP fundraiser in California, Leung turns out to have been an ACTUAL CHINESE SPY.

If these guys think the GOP is in the clear, they are sore mistaken.

TPM provides an excellent overview of the case:

Leung managed to compromise not only the campaign finance investigation but perhaps also a great deal of US espionage against China over the last two decades. Now it seems clear that higher-ups at the FBI suspected or knew Leung was a double agent as early as 1991.

Oh, and one other thing: Leung is a long-time Republican party activist, fundraiser and party-donor. A November 2nd 1997 article in the Los Angeles Times called her "a dynamic Republican known to have friends and family connections in the highest echelons of Beijing government ... has opened her spacious San Marino home for local political fund-raisers and has facilitated visits to China by the mayor and others."

[librechik]

25. Yes! A Republican spy got China that technology.

Clinton was the victim here (along with the rest of us Americans.
And Leung lived it up at GOP fundraisers while spying for the Chinese!

[AntiSmirk]

16. China has had ICBMs since the 1970s, I believe

Clinton had nothing to do with it.

[kodi]

19. urban legend

“The Clinton administration decided to reject the sale of a US$450 million satellite to a business group with close ties to the Chinese government after criticism that such aerospace deals with China could harm national security.

“The decision reversed the government' approval of the deal two-and-a-half years ago and casts doubt on the future of US satellite sales to China, The deal involved the Hughes Space and Communications satellite designed to set up a mobile telephone network over a vast area of Asia from China to Indonesia and Pakistan. The Commerce Department formally notified Hughes Electronics Corp. of the government's "intent to deny" approval for the deal.

“The Commerce Department favored the sale but was overruled by the Defense and State Departments, which believed that the technology needed to put the satellite in orbit would help China's military make its intercontinental ballistic missile fleet more accurate.
Some experts feared the Chinese military would derive both commercial and technological benefits once the satellite was in orbit. The Pentagon and other US agencies were worried about the Chinese military's involvement in the deal.
The official buyer of the satellite was a Singapore-based business group whose top officials include senior Chinese military officers. Hughes Electronics is a separately traded unit of General Motors Corp."

The Chinese launch American satellites on a regular basis. These are commercial, telecommunication satellites. The technologies sold to the Singapore company on guidance are trivial compared to that which the Chinese received from the Soviet Union. The differences between ICBMs and satellite launchers was pointed out even by the CIA, and withheld from public examination.

“The Federal Aviation Administration expects to have more than 30 satellite launches this year from the United States, nearly double the 17 that went up in 1997.
But that is a small percentage of world launches, and the need for more satellites is expected to climb exponentially as people depend more on satellites for phone, television, pager, and Internet services.

“Dependence on satellite technology came into sharp focus in May 1998 when the Galaxy IV orbiter turned away from Earth, silencing pagers, some television feeds, and other devices. Without contingency satellites, the outages would have lasted for days.
The United States makes about two-thirds of the world's commercial satellites, but simply cannot launch them all, says the Satellite Industry Association.

“US satellite firms are in sync with the Clinton administration -- and the Bush and Reagan administrations before it -- for encouraging launches of commercial satellites in places with known or suspected nuclear weapons capability. So far, that has included Russia, Ukraine, and China.”

http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,12488,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,12953,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,12465,00.html


BUT, CONSIDER THESE DETAILS

For info on the comparison of US v. Chinese nuclear arsenals:

Presently the US has about 2,500 megatons, down from a high in 1959 of 21,000 megatons.

ICBMs. The 500 Minuteman IIIs have been consolidated from four bases to three. Currently the 200 Minuteman missiles at Malmstrom are deployed in four missile squadrons of 50 missiles each as part of the 341st Space Wing. The 150 Minuteman missiles at Minot AFB, North Dakota, are in three missile squadrons belonging to the 91st Space Wing. The 90th Space Wing at F.E. Warren AFB, Wyoming, is home to 150 Minuteman missiles divided in three squadrons and one missile squadron of 50 MX ICBMs.

To comply with the START II ban on MIRVs (multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles), each Minuteman will have the number of warheads it carries reduced from three to one. Some have been "downloaded" already. Eventually, all Minuteman missiles will carry one warhead and the MX will be retired. Currently, 300 have the higher yield W78 warhead and 200 have the W62 warhead. While several de-MIRVing options are possible, the air force has begun to place the Mark 21/W87 warhead on some Minuteman missiles. Up to 500 W87’s will be removed from the 50 MX missiles slated for retirement. The W87 has preferred safety features, including insensitive high explosive, a fire resistant pit, and an enhanced nuclear detonation system (ENDS). The W78 has ENDS only.


http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/mj00nukenote.html

http://www.osti.gov/html/osti/opennet/document/press/pc26.html


Only gossip, but Chinese capabilities look like:

An anonymous poster ([e-mail]) sent an internal document of the Chinese Defense Ministry to the Hong Kong magazine The Trend (Dong Xiang). This document reveals that China at present (1996) has a total of 2,350 nuclear warheads. This number is about 8 times larger than the 300 generally cited in the Western media. Among the 2,350 warheads are about 550 tactical nukes and 1,800 strategic nukes. The document also reveals that the annual production of warheads was about 110-120 in the 1980's and about 140-150 at present.

http://www.kimsoft.com/korea/ch-war.htm


yet this site quotes much lower figures.

http://www.bullatomsci.org/issues/nukenotes/mj99nukenote.html

China maintains an arsenal of about 400 warheads: some 250 "strategic" weapons in a triad of long-range land-based missiles, bombers, and submarine-launched ballistic missiles; and some 150 "tactical" weapons-presumably lower-yield bombs for tactical aircraft, possibly artillery shells, atomic demolition munitions, and short-range missiles like the Dong Feng (or DF-) 15 and 11. These missiles are better known by their export names: The DF-15 is known as the M-9, and has a 600-kilometer range; the DF-11, or M-11, has a 300-kilometer range.

It doesn't matter anymore how the chinese became able to shoot nukes around the world, it only matters now that they can.

[seasat]

20. Here's a quick synopsis

Reagan first approved and sold actual weapons to China. He considered the USSR the enemy and tried to ally with Mao. He "accidentally" sold China jet engines that were the same as used in US cruise missles. He also sold them weapons and other tech. Bush I also continued this relationship with China and continued approval of Chinese launch of satellites. After Tinamen (sp?) Square Bush I stopped the trade of certain items with China but allowed certain items such as a Cray computer and some military equipment to continue to be sold to China since he'd always promised it to them (along with the satellite launches). During the later part of the Reagan or early Bush I admin, China stole the technology for the W88 (I think that's the designation) trident nuclear warhead from us. We know about it since during the Bush I administration a Chinese man dropped off plans to make at a US embassy. It was concluded that he actually worked for Chinese intelligence and they wanted us to know that they had the technology so we would not mess with them.

Clinton had the strict policy regarding trade with China. Computers that China could buy easily on the open market were banned by the Clinton administration. He, however, continued the launches of communication satellites started by Reagan and Bush I. The problem was the Chinese rocket kept having problems and one crashed with a Laurel satellite aboard it. The Republicans then came up with the charge that because they never found a guidance system aboard the Laurel satellite that smashed into the ground from hundreds of feet at a high rate of speed and scattered debris for miles that the Chinese got it. Loral and Hughes both consulted with the Chinese regarding their rocket problems and Loral recomended a change to the fairing on their payload that would make the rockets more stable. This is why they charge that the Clinton administration sold secrets to the Chinese after it was found that some contributions to his campaign may have come through other sources from China. An investigation found that none of the money acctually made it into Clinton's campaign and a small amount that was returned made it into the DNC. The Republicans had at least as much indirectly from communist China.

For back ground and to fill in the mistakes I probably made pulling this out of my brain here are a few links.

GAO report on Satellite Tehc

Salon link on GOP and China

Timeline on Chinese tech transfers

Cox Report (Warning this report is highly partisan prepared by Repukes. Read the notes, they are very bad for Reagan and Bush I)

Bill proposed by Phil "Enron" Gramm and supported by Shrub that shows the Repubs real policy towards communist China

[Oilwellian]

22. Just show this to your friend

First, let's remember it was Reagan who opened the market for China to launch U.S. satellites. Key US secrets were lost to the Chinese under Reagan-Bush, not Clinton. This was revealed by the Cox Congressional Report.

<snip>
After a five-month investigation, a House select committee-- five Republicans and four Democrats-- reached its conclusions unanimously and released them today in a 900- page report.

It found: China's penetration of four U.S. national laboratories spans at least the last several decades and almost certainly continues today. Those laboratories are Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, Sandia, and Oak Ridge. China stole design information on all seven thermonuclear warheads currently deployed in the U.S. arsenal, including its most advanced, the W-88. It will exploit elements of those designs in its next generation of weapons. China also obtained missile and space technology from U.S. companies that improved its military and intelligence operations.

When the committee began its investigation last summer, it focused primarily on allegations of the transfer of missile technology to the Chinese by two U.S. companies, Hughes Electronics and Loral Space and Communications. In 1996, a Loral-Hughes satellite aboard a Chinese rocket was lost when the rocket exploded shortly after liftoff. In an attempt, they said, to prevent future accidents, Loral and Hughes shared technical information with the Chinese, but without getting the required approval of the State Department.

In its report today, the committee made 38 recommendations to the administration, notably that it implement counterintelligence programs at the national laboratories, strengthen export controls of sensitive technology to other countries, and have the Defense Department monitor launches of U.S. satellites in other countries. The Clinton administration says it already has implemented many of the committee's recommendations.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/jan-june99/nuclear_5-25.html

Now, ask your friend why Bush 43 went against the Cox Report recommendation bolded above and allowed even more efficient high tech computer equipment to be sold to countries like Pakistan and China?

<snip>
United States President George W. Bush has announced changes in the country’s export controls on computers and microprocessors, which will allow India to import more sophisticated dual-use technology from America.

The White House declared that the U.S. will raise the level above which it requires individual licenses for computer exports to Tier 3 countries — from the current level of 85,000 millions of theoretical operations per second (MTOPS) to 190,000 MTOPS.

Tier 3 countries include India, Russia, Israel, Pakistan, and China. Bush informed Congress of these changes on Jan. 2 and they will become operational after a 60-day Congressional notification period.

Washington is also raising the level at which it requires individual licenses for exports to many destinations, of general-purpose microprocessors from 6,500 MTOPS to 12,000 MTOPS. The new computer and microprocessor levels will become effective when published by the Department of Commerce in the Federal Register. “These changes will advance the president’s goal of updating the U.S. export control system so that it protects U.S. national security, and at the same time, allows America’s high tech companies to innovate and successfully compete in today’s marketplace,” the White House said.

http://www.newsindia-times.com/2002/01/11/eco-it-nation.html

[aeon flux]

24. Wow. Pretty damning report.

I wonder why the Dems aren't making a fuss of issues the Cox Report raises. BushCo is compromising US security in the name of satisfying the financial interests of his campaign contributors. BuschCo puts their own political interests above all elese, including national security.

I think its time for a new campaign slogan:

[Dr Fate]

23. Ask him why Ken Starr could not prove it.

Ask him why Dam Burton put a halt to the Clinton/China investigation.

Ask him why John Ashcroft is "covering" for Clinton by refusing to investigate these serious charges.

[jpak]

27. The Chinese tested their first ICBM vehicle during Nixon's

adminstration, and it became operational during the Reagan administration.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/df-5.htm

The Clinton-gave-the-Chinese-ICBM-technology claim is bullshit.