The 9/11 Poll: What really happened?

[JackRiddler]

Here we go again! I did this a couple of months ago and would like to see if the results have changed.

WHAT IS YOUR "HOP" LEVEL?

If you've followed all the 9/11 speculations on the Web, what do you think was the real story? In this poll, I offer ten detailed and subtly graduated options. I believe these cover all of the possibilies, not including aliens or divine interventions.

Please vote and please only vote once - am genuinely curious to see what the present mood here is. If you give reasons, give them succinctly. Please don't use this thread for some endless debate on details.

THE CHOICES:

1 THE OFFICIAL STORY
19 hijackers with Qaeda connections pulled off 9/11 using knives and mace to hijack the flights. Despite all the indirect warnings and predictions from investigators and terror experts, the U.S. government did not acquire or synthesize sufficient intelligence in advance to prevent the attacks. In fact, it makes sense that the attacks were not prevented, since they took advantage of our free society and various weaknesses in the system prior Sept. 11.
In other words, the opposition should stop trying to use 9/11 against Bush or anyone else, it will only hurt us in the general election.

2 INCOMPETENCE THEORY
As in the official story, but this option includes the possibility that the failure was due to staggering and criminal incompetence on the part of the White House, FBI, CIA, NSA or other intelligence sevices.
This is more or less what Gen. Clark & others are already pushing.

3 SAUDI/TALIBAN DOUBLE CROSS, BUSH APATHY
As in choice 1, the U.S. was blindsided. But the active involvement of fundamentalist Saudis in high places was much higher than has been revealed so far. The Bushies don't want that to get out because it will make them look bad, so they are obstructing the 9/11 inquiries. Bush & Co. called off terror investigations by the FBI before Sept. 11 to keep out of the Saudis' hair. This recklessly facilitated the attacks, which the Bushies may have wanted to stop, had they figured anything out in time. Related alternative theory: same, but with the Taliban/Qaeda as the main perpetrators. Bush & Co. looked away from the possibility of an attack so as to facilitate the ongoing pipeline negotiations with the Taliban.
This is more or less what Greg Palast says.

4 WISHING FOR PEARL HARBOR
Bush & Co. intentionally looked the other way, expecting and hoping something terrible would happen, so they could get their whole PNAC/Christian Nation/Plunder Program through, including the already planned wars. They knew vaguely what was coming, possibly provoked it and saw to it that it would not be hindered, but did not directly facilitate or physically involve themselves. They may have even been surprised at how terrible the attacks themselves were.
On the last poll, this was the most popular opinion on DU.

5 FULL LIHOP/LIHOP PLUS
LIHOP = Letting It Happen On Purpose
As in the official story, hijackers were dispatched by "Qaeda" to carry out the 9/11 plan. However, Bush & Co. and/or other elements in the U.S. government, secret services or establishment became aware of and actively facilitated these attacks, knowing that they needed a new Pearl Harbor. This insider facilitation included obstruction of FBI investigations, the Air Force standdown, and possibly the construction of other excuses for inaction, such as "we were holding a simulation and didn't know it had been piggy-backed by evildoers." In the LIHOP PLUS alternative, these insider elements may have even arranged to guarantee that the 9/11 plot would succeed (why leave something so important in the hands of amateurs), by infiltrating and helping the hijackers, possibly even steering the planes by remote control, or doing whatever else was considered necessary.
This scenario may or may not include a WTC demolition.
(My own opinion is somewhere between this and the next choice, i.e. I think 9/11 was a full inside job that however subverted a genuine terrorist plot. This seems to me like the most logical way to do it and still have an alibi.)

6 NORTHWOODS 2001
MIHOP = Making It Happen On Purpose
There were no hijackers. The whole thing was planned and executed as an inside job by elements within the U.S., including the creation of the false-flag excuses, using patsies or a completely fake lists of perpetrators. The planes were flown by remote control or were replaced by drones.
Very likely includes a WTC demolition.

7 NWO RULES
Same as Northwoods 2001, but as a master plan not just of "elements within the U.S." but of the global ruling elite - a hardcore faction of which decided, as a group, to orchestrate an incident allowing them to gain greater control of the world Zeitgeist, on behalf of a much larger plan to seize key resources, reshape the world, drop the democratic facades and transition to open corporate feudalism. The players consciously steered the propaganda before and afterwards so as to get what they needed.
Definitely includes a WTC demolition!

8 THIRD STATE / BUSH SUCKERED
Take your pick and mix and match among Iraq, Pakistan, Israel, China, Russia and/or German revanchists (for Saudi Arabia or Taliban, go to Choice 2).
Please explain your scenario.

9 ROGUE FACTION
Bush & Co. themselves were blindsided by elements within the U.S., who effectively attempted or even succeeded in staging a coup.
This is how I interpret the views of LaRouche and others.
Please explain your scenario.

10 DON'T KNOW
I care, but I really still don't have a preference among the above 9 options.

[reprehensor]

1. 10 DON'T KNOW

I'm reading the 'declassified' 911 report as we speak. The incompetence theory is really compelling, combined with a hefty dose of 'who cares' by the current administration.

But the official story is chock full of holes.

I just don't know, I can't decide. Is this the intended effect of all this misinformation out there? If so, that makes it all even more suspicious to me.

[Bucky]

28. While my gut sez Palast/Clark are right, we're all really Don't Knows

While my gut puts me right in between what Greg Palast and what Wes Clark say, the truth is, we're all really at option #10. We can't know. We can only wonder, and ask, and bitch, and mourn, and vote.

And then make sure the votes are all counted.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Some last pieces I am trying to fit into one of these scenarios...

Airforce standdown
Bush lack of urgency in reading classroom
"Magic" hijacker passport (found at WTC site)
Safe passage for bin Ladens/Saudis
Patriot Act apparently drafted before 911


Underlying motivations I favor (if MIHOP/LIHOP is the case):

Dollar (vs Euro) Hegemony
US preferential access to oil vs other actors (Peak oil)
Pure profit play for Halliburton/Bechtel
Political advantage (wartime president + increased nationalism)

[JackRiddler]

3. Patriot Act

Hey, they were raring to push that through back in the Stone Age of Rumsfeld/Cheney/Bush under the Ford Admin. There's always such legislation waiting and there are always bastards who want it bad. The question is more, did they decide to finally get it?

[AndyP]

4. none

I think Bush's lack of urgency in the classroom was due to the fact that he's not going to jet out of a room of kids yelling "we're under attack!!!" I think he actually showed some leadership in keeping cool, and I don't think his "coolness" had anything to do with him knowing what was going to happen before hand. Maybe It's just hope when I say that no American would let something like that happen no matter what their motives were.

Also I'm not familiar with the "magic passport" any links?

Personally I think it was the second one. The competence of this administration is that of one child in the classroom he was meeting with that day.

[BlueEyedSon]

6. Objectively, The POTUS could have been a target too

I was not a secret where he was, and in a soft target (school building). Why didn't his PEOPLE get him out of there? The Secret Service's job is to protect him. '

I have seen the Videotape and at no time did he say anything back to Andy Card like "no I'm staying here, I'll risk it", etc.... As I recall he did not reply to Card at all.

[mac2]

45. What about the children?

What about the safety of the children? He failed to think about their safety. He says, he didn't know about the attacks and where they were etc. Their parents should have been outraged. Guess..this was Republican..stupid country. Did any of them comment on this?

Bush then fled to a jet when he was near bases in Florida. Oh but he could have been in contact with the citizens...this would require answers and taking away the fear. Fear was the point was it not?

This fact alone is reason for impeachment. He is the Commander-in-Chief. Not a citizen hiding from the enemy..whoever they are.

[Th1onein]

91. He didn't reply to Card because

He knew that he was safe in that classroom. He knew, in advance, what the targets were, and made sure that he wasn't around them on the target day. It's okay to be in a "soft" area if you know it isn't the target. Bush knew. He knew. And the more I research this topic, the more I'm convinced.

[Taeger]

12. No Leadership would be

Yes, it would have been stupid to jump up and run out of the room. But finishing the story really showed a disinterest in national defense.

Leadership would be manufacturing a new ending for the "goat story", wishing the kids well and taking his leave. You do whats most important TO THE NATION!!!!! The kids would GET OVER the president changing the end of the story.

But it was so telling that the president would rather hang out with his intellectual peers than deal with our nation being under attack. He was told about the first plane before he left the hotel, yet he decided to do his photo-op instead of seeing to the safety and security of this nation.

Keep in mind this was after taking the longest vacation in US history AFTER being alerted that terrorists planned to hijack planes and turn them into flying missiles.

No, he was 100% negligent and 100% irresponsible. I don't think that anyone could put up an impregnable shield against terrorists. However, Bush really didn't seem to give a flying fuck. He was far to obsessed over missile defense for his Bechtel buddies, and Iraq invasion for his friends at Halliburton.

[Sterling]

16. Those were the only two options?

Freaking out or doing nothing? How about just saying, sorry kids but the president has some important work to do right now?

I also think that scaring a few kids is a small price to pay for having a CIC on the same page with our national defense people that day.

[TennesseeWalker]

19. I agree with the classroom thing.

How in the world do you react to something like that? If he IS as dumb as a coalbucket, then he probably thought, "Gee whiz! Why would somebody do that?"

I don't think he's dumb. He did look befuddled, not malevolant. I really think W is a pitiful puppet for those who really pull the strings, the corporate masters and their servants.

W is being used, and I think it's becoming very clear to the American public that he's not fit for office; he is simply not strong, and his principles are very weak (if he has any at all).

[Bucky]

29. I'm anti-LIHOP, but I don't think the classroom thing showed leadership

I think we just got caught with our pants down. The Bush administration was a bunch of self-satisfied sanctimonious goobers who thought (and think) they deserve to be in the White House. If God and Antonin Scalia agree on that, who are they to argue? So they drop the monitoring on bin Laden and start negotiating with the Taliban over that pipeline from Kazakhistan and don't push the bureaucrats in the FBI to prioritize anti-terrorism.

When the planes start hitting, they don't know how to react because they've never quite pushed themselves to plan for the unexpected (altho in fact a major terrorist attack on the World Trade Center is anything but unexpected and an attack on Washington DC is straight out of a very popular, if eerily prescient, Tom Clancy novel). They didn't know (almost certainly); but dammit they should have.

Bush did one major thing right in the days after 9/11 and I am grateful for that. He announced from the bully pulpit that Islam is not a hateful religion and called on the people not to retaliate in hatred against Muslims. We'll never know how many lives he saved by doing that. Everything else domestically he's done since then has been a fuck up.

[belle]

85. I think he's malevolent, but agree that the classroom thing is irrelevant

It probably wasn't immediately clear what was going on; I don't think it says much of anything either way that he finished his visit, in any case.

[Bridget Burke]

31. He showed absolutely NO leadership

The first building had been hit before he went into the classroom. A real president would have canceled the photo-op & seen what needed to be done. He was informed about the second hit while listening to the reading lesson but continued to sit there like a bump on a log. Then, a brief announcement followed by an unseemly flight to Nebraska. Did you know that planes from his old TANG unit helped escort Air Force 1 as he tried to stay "out of harm's way"?

A real president wouldn't have allowed it to happen. He would have listened to the warnings coming in all summer & taken some other action than a month-long vacation.

In Bush's case, incompetence is a given. But his guilt goes deeper than that.

[notadmblnd]

58. He knew before he got to the school

They knew it was a highjacking a full 30 minutes before the first plane crashed. This became evident in the news media last week when they released the conversation with the flight attendant. The people who defend this administration don't pay attention to the fact that a year or so earlier when the famous golfer Payne Stewarts plane went off course that jets were scrambled within 15 minutes. But a full 30 minutes after knowing a plane had been takenover by "terrorists" still nothing had been done. They could have cancelled, could have told the children their beloved emperor was called away for an important meeting with Santa Clause. They could have told the teachers/children any number of things and bowed out of the visit. It was LIHOP in the nth degree.

[belle]

83. I also lean most strongly toward #2, incompetence-but not just the CIA's.

However, given the overall shadiness of this administration, the Bush-Bin Laden/Saudi ties (further details of which I await learning), and, most damningly suspicious, the PNAC documents about "new Pearl Harbor," my internal jury is out. I'd say a mix of #2 and some of the others; that is, I firmly believe that evidence of an upcoming attack was right there, could have been acted upon (much *likelier* to have prevented it, anyway), and was instead ignored. Whether it was entirely because of Bush's inherent laziness, incuriosity, belief in his own invulnerability, and so on, or whether there was some deliberate looking the other way on the part of some of the smarter administration members for darker reasons, I don't know; but yes, I'm suspicious. I also think that there are a lot of different factions even within the Bush administration, and that the overall lack of communication is a big part of the problem.

I do not believe that there really weren't any terrorists with their very own agendas at all, or that BushCo is some kind of cartoon Dr. Evil genius outfit who orchestrated the entire thing; that way madness lies. Mainly, they're just not *that* smart. They aren't. I'm sorry. It also denies a lot of reality about the state of the world outside the U.S.

Bottom line: I do believe that if Gore had been in the White House, it would not have gone down this way, probably not the event, and definitely not the aftermath. That right there is enough for me; the rest is gravy.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. Here's my musical answer:

And now you carry out your plans
Which you have had for decades
Conquering the world
With your troops and bombing raids
I see an evil regime
Led by an evil man
On Pennsylvania Avenue
Where this evil war began
- David Rovics, "Reichstag Fire"

Oil blood money makes these killers ride cold
Suspicious suicides, people dyin', never told
It's all a part of playin' God so ya think we need 'em
While 'Bin Ashcroft' take away ya rights to freedom
Bear witness to the sickness of these dictators
Hope you understand the time brother cause it's major
- Paris, "What Would You Do?"

God spare us all this time again
from the ruthless engines of evil men
You look at the details the picture is clear
want to increase the power, so they increase the fear
well I'm not a reptile with an uncle named Bob
But I know 9/11 was an inside job
yeah I know 9/11 was an inside job
- Les Visible, "9/11 was an Inside Job"

Ahmed is buddy buddy with George Tenet,
Ahmed is buddy buddy with Mohammed Atta.
- Clarity, "Buddy Buddy"

[Sterling]

17. I just shot a video for Clarity this weekend.

Working on the edit right now. You can also see Mike Kane from Clarity at http://harbingerpro.com/#

He is in the "Osama is a Bush" movie as well as the MoveOn.org contest finalist comercial that Shadow Government TV did.

[Minstrel Boy]

20. great news Sterling!

I brought Buddy Buddy to Eric Blumrich's attention (http://www.bushflash.com/buddy.html). It begged for a flash video.

"Do the math." Really, what more do we need to do?

[Thoth]

7. Great job

compiling the various "HOP levels". I guess hops aren't just for beer anymore.

I voted for #5 (LIHOP) myself.

[eissa]

8. #4

The way this administration has so capitalized on the tragedy of 9/11 really leads me to believe that, if not outright helping it happen, certainly did nothing to stop it. 9/11, as I've said many times, was like manna from heaven to *. It gave them the excuse they needed to implement their hawkish, neo-con agendas.

[concord]

9. By your own def, #5 is MIHOP

>> insider facilitation included obstruction of FBI investigations, the Air Force standdown, and possibly the construction of other excuses for inaction <<

These activities are intentional and directed. Just a matter of semantics I think :)

I chose #5 based on the definition. I believe it was an intentional inside job with strong connections to outside powers.

Scares the sh*t out of me every time I think about it.

[JackRiddler]

10. Well, what does LIHOP mean?

Morally I don't think there's any difference between LIHOP and MIHOP.

Both are inside jobs. The difference is in the operational question ofwhether the masterminds employed outside elements (real hijackers, or at any rate patsies who thought they were real hijackers), or completely scripted the whole damn thing.

A 9/11 model qualifies as inside job as soon as we posit specific foreknowledge of the plot among high-level people who had the power to stop it and did not do so because they wanted it to happen.

Intent is the key.

Many people confuse LIHOP for LIH, leaving out the key words ON PURPOSE.

Just "letting it happen" fits in more with the "Wishing for Pearl Harbor" or apathy/incompetence scenarios. The On Purpose automatically implies specific foreknowledge.

Towards the other extreme, there are many super-MIHOP radicals who absolutely refuse to accept the essential moral similarity of LIHOP and MIHOP, who act as though LIHOP is practically excusing the masterminds (which is untrue). Sometimes this group acts as though LIHOP theory is the real enemy. I've seen many people called idiots or traitors to the cause if they do not accept the whole package: full NWO job - no hijackers whatsoever - Qaeda itself an illusion - WTC demolished - Pentagon hit by cruise missile - Democrats, Republicans identical, merely "regime rotation," - etc.

I think this is counterproductive, and favor any political action that moves people away from options 1-2 (or 3 for that matter) and towards options 4-6. Based on the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, the continual obstruction of the investigation, the likely physical evidence, the logic, politics and history, and the accounts of the whistleblowers to date, that is where we will find the answer.

[concord]

21. Valid clarification

You are right; it is the "on purpose" I was ignoring. I believe there was foreknowledge and actions that contributed, but I can see how that can be described as letting it happen "on purpose" instead of making it happen.

Anyone who is brave enough to really look at the events of that day and the reaction of the administration since must come to similar conclusions. The evidence, circumstantial though it may be, is overwhelming.

It took me a year, a full YEAR to start looking at 9-11. I am a well educated thinking person (I'd like to think, lol) and it took me a great deal of time to face the fear that our gov't could "let" such an attack happen to us. Because it took me so long, I have compassion for those still in denial. I am seeing evidence of a collective awakening however. It's encouraging. I just hope it doesn't take too long.

[jansu]

11. It is the duty of the Air National Guard to Protect America's Skies!

Yes, the military planes were ordered to stand down that day. But, it is the Air National Guard which does the protection of our skies. (Just like it is the National Guard which does the protection on the ground). Who did Bush appoint as the head of the Air National Guard, just months before 911? The same man who helped him in getting into the Texas Air National Guard, the same man who helped to scrub his service record. Hmmmmm!

[Taeger]

13. They KNEW

The Air traffic controllers KNEW that the planes were out of their flight plans. This is one of the reason they fly flight plans. They couldn't contact the planes.

WHY WEREN'T JETS SCRAMBLED. Scrambling jets does not constitute an emergency. It's a prudent measure in case further steps are needed. Indeed, after the first jet struck the World Trade Center, the second and third Jets SHOULD HAVE been shot down.

Yes, the commander of the US Air National Guard was the guy who pimped him into, around and out of the National Guard. They guy was 100% negligent. How could Bush fire the man when he knows where all the bodies are buried. I'm somewhat surprised that he hasn't died in a small plane crash like so many others who become dangerous to the Bushes.

[oasis]

14. kick

[Sterling]

15. Nice poll

:kick:

[ignatius]

18. MIHOP..I have thought from day one that our government did

this. It was just way too slick, the planes hitting buildings on a beautiful fall day..it was like a movie setting..

No defense systems around the WTC which had been bombed just a few years prior? No planes sent out to defend the 2nd tower or the Pentagon? The felling of the towers looked like a demolition I had seen on tv of a casino in Las Vegas..

There were so many things immediately that smelled like bullshit to me..then afterwards with the arrest at the Boston hotel,,the missing passports..arrests happening so quickly when supposedly the CIA and FBI had no idea something like this could happen let alone who could be involved.

The cover up of any investigation by this administration, coupled with revelations about PNAC and Rumsfeld's comments to sweep it all up, things related and not cinched it for me..this was the catalyst for the big prize..Iraq and all that oil.

They did it(Poppy, Cheney,Perle,Wolfowitz.Rumsfeld,Libby with Rice,Powell and the rest falling into line by being threatened and intimidated.

Somehow, I think Chimpy didn't know about the scope and extent of it,I remember how pissed he was at his dad that day at the memorial services..I think he was most likely told that something was going down, but, didn't know how huge it would be.

These men are mass murderers,sick,sick people, but believe that the end justifies the means.

What price were they willing to pay for a New World Order? We know part of the answer.

[RhodaGrits]

78. WTC demolition

the only part I can speak about relates to a conversation I had w/ a chemical engineer who spent his life designing and testing the foams that protect the metal columns in buildings from fire. He said that the foam in those buildings had never been intended to protect the structural integrity from a jet fuel fire of that intensity and that when those beams melted, it was going to come down exactly like it did. To him, the way the towers came down was exactly what he expected from a fire of that intensity. (Remember, those were fully fuel loaded trans-atlantic big jets). I don't believe the demolition conspiracy theory for this reason.

[Terwilliger]

22. LIE-HOP

[JackRiddler]

23. kick

[ComerPerro]

24. Most people are suprisingly open to the concept of LIHOP

Several people I have told about this idea thought about it for a minute, and then it seemed to make perfect sense...

[PVnRT]

25. A surprise attack by Lrrr of Omicron Persei 8

n/t

[Minstrel Boy]

26. We got the HOPs, alright.

At present, 72% have answered that the White House had some degree of complicity.



Yes we do.

[VOX]

27. At least Pearl Harbor, maybe LIHOP...

The *fact* that in summer of 2001 Ashcroft refused to fly on commercial passenger aircraft, and that * retreated to Crawford for at least a month is rather revealing.

There are many other documented facts that are just too clean, too neat to be ignored.

On the other hand, because of the way that the U.S. has conducted its global affairs under Nixon, Reagan and Bush I, there are most likely a significant number of people who would feel justified in inflicting damage on American soil.

But no matter how it's sliced, there's gross negligence for sure, and possibly an unspeakably horrible complicity.

[KayLaw]

30. LIHOP

Had it been truly MIHOP, I don't think Bush and Cheney would have risked the embarrassment of taking month long vacations in August after just barely starting their new jobs; they would have known the exact date from the beginning.

[tinanator]

32. embarassment requires shame which requires principals

those vacations were alibis.

[JackRiddler]

33. Who's doing the MIHOPING?

Oh, I'm sure they'd see that as a minor risk. If you are an Übermensch vacations are a natural reward and symbolic leadership necessity (the people need royalty). Besides, vacations are the workplace of cronyism and gangsterism.

And would you say that the vacations have been treated as an issue? And couldn't you have predicted that they would not be an issue?

It's not like Bush or Cheney are operationally in charge of letting in the hijackers, tracking their movements, keeping up hidden contacts if necessary, blocking investigations, laying down false trails, preparing legends, distributing strategic warnings (for later credibility), training or financing pilots, setting up technical necessities (depending on whether you believe there were demolitions or remote control/bumbleplanes), etc. The operational Makers in Making it Happen are elsewhere. Even under MIHOP with full involvement of the regime at the top, B & C themselves only have the functional role only of LIHOP.

Cheney's role was almost certainly more active than "just pretend you're surprised." We know that he is the actual chief executive. He was
1) in charge of the Counterterror task force (let that speak for itself, keeping in mind the Project for a New American Century and Its Need for a New Pearl Harbor);
2) in charge of the Energy task force (presumably including the pre-9/11 Enron plunder of California, Iraq invasion plans and Taliban negotiations; Judicial Watch is still pursuing the case to get the papers released);
3) The man who actually took over the Shadow Government when it was activated on Sept. 11, an event that was only revealed (by Cheney) to the Democratic leadership and Congress in November.

Given how things worked out after Sept. 11, it seems natural to wonder whether the functions of Counterterror and Energy were not actually linked as a single vision and project: get the provocation to push through the intended wars.

Also on 9/11, members of Cheney's staff went on Cipro as a precautionary measure against possible anthrax attack (Judicial Watch).

We know that Cheney was in the White House on 9/11, hence he was both technically and literally in charge of operations. We know that Papa Bush was staying there and met him before going off to The Carlyle Group annual meeting, which may be of immense significance or functionally irrelevant.

We know that the government was running a number of thematically related wargames on 9/11. At NORAD, Vigilant Guardian and Northern Vigilance were rehearsing air defense response to both, domestic hijacking scenarios (in part by generating false blips on radar screens) and external attack. This may have actually been meant as a preventive alert posture, warming up for defense contingencies in anticipation of potential trouble on the day. We know the CIA was holding a drill to simulate a plane-crash into the building of the National Reconaissance Office, a rather implausible coincidence.

What we have learned about these wargames is probably just the tip of the iceberg. They sound like mechanical and mental elements of the day's defense standdown. The mental part provides an alibi (we got tricked at first)

So if these seemingly related wargames had high-level command and coordination as an integrated scenario, for example one devised by the executive counterterrorism task force, who might actually be running the show, say from the Situation Room in the White House?

We do know from the mainstream accounts that if anyone in the chain of command was in charge of the executive response to the attacks, it was Cheney. Myers, Rumsfeld and Bush were all off pretending they were caught by surprise. It is Cheney whom Woodward or Time magazine depict as actually giving orders from the Situation Room, among other things telling Minetta to land the planes.

He has admitted a common line was set up between Secret Service, NORAD and Pentagon, and FAA. This is how the crucial information and orders were probably exchanged. We know the transcript of this conference call runs 200 pages. It would be one of the first items that a real investigation would subpoena, along with Cheney's counterterrorism and energy task force files.

[rocktop15]

34. I don't buy into the LIHOP theory.

I tend to believe in theory number two. How could SO many people keep a secret like this for so long? This had to be orchestrated with thousands of people knowing. Look at what happened to Nixon with the Watergate scandal. All hell broke loose after finding out about that. Maybe I'm not paranoid enough, but I really find it hard to believe that something like that could go down without getting out.

[Minstrel Boy]

36. "This had to be orchestrated with thousands of people knowing"

Absolutely not.

Only a handful of people needed to know everything. Everyone else actively involved, and that needs to be only a few more, have compartmentalized knowledge. They weren't told the big picture. (For instance, perhaps, Dave Frasca at FBI headquarters, in charge of the radical fundamentalism unit. He's ordered to stymie multiple field agents requests to investigate flight schools. He doesn't ask why; he just needs to assume there's a reason. Field agents had never seen such road blocks from head office. Frasca's rewarded after 9/11 with a promotion. Job well done.)

A larger number are involved in effecting a cover-up, but they had no foreknowledge whatsoever and even now may not suspect government complicity. They simply act in the service of protecting the system. It has always been thus.

Think pyramid structure.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

54. It seems to me...

That the entire operation could actually have been accomplished with as few as 12 individuals.
The number at the "top" would be even fewer.

So I do not accept that a "huge cover-up" is necessary.

[JackRiddler]

38. So MANY people?

Ah, the old assumption that people are just raring at the bit to expose themselves to ridicule, censure, possibly death. Be honest: if you knew just one piece of the puzzle, and it seemed to fit in too well with LIHOP - what would you do? Take it to CBS? Ha.

And then they'll give you an award right? Ha ha. They'll call you crazy, damaged, traumatized, opportunistic, liar, etc. etc.

People killed to keep secrets of 9/11:

Jim Hatfield (first to write on the Genoa warning and attribute it to CIA plot, first to uncover Bush-Bin Laden connection)
Daniel Pearl (by ISI agent and Atta financier Saeed Sheikh)

(Do we even know how many others?!)

Even 1/3 Woman of the Year Colleen Rowley lost her job.

Of course, you don't bother with the actual case. You can just say it (probably you haven't read anything about any of the revelations) and stick to your prejudices.

Nevertheless: Kept the secret? Ha! So many cracks have appeared it's ridiculous.

I'm going to scratch the surface with some notes and if you're worth any salt you'll research it yourself.

I'll leave aside the 1,001 anonymous e-mails making the Internet rounds, some of which sound quite credible. Again, would you sing, say if you realized you'd played a tiny part in the standdown and couldn't prove it? Or would

So many have come to the table with their little pieces.

Whistleblowers directly relating to 9/11:

- Colleen Rowley (spoke of obstruction, not neglect)
- John O'Neill (died on the day but had given a final interview)
- Tyrone Powers
- Steve Butler (Col. at Language School Monterrey, where Pentagon originally said some of the hijackers had trained!)
- Robert Wright
- David Schippers
- The FBI guys who talked to Palast

There will be more!

Whistleblowers relating to aspects or historical background:

- C.A. Fitts
- Michael Springmann

Officials who have made smoking gun statements, whether they realized it or not:

- Mueller (hijackers left no paper trail whatsoever!)
- Willie Brown (warned day before)
- Salman Rushdie (warned week before)
- Cheney ("there was an open line...") see TENC
- Condoleeza Rice ("no one could have imagined...")

Politicians who stood up and were attacked, nullified as an example to others:

- Cynthia McKinney
- Meacher (UK)
- Von Bülow (Germany)
- Dean (oops, should have backed that up about Bush Knew, governor; when you didn't go on the attack, they came and creamed you with "The Scream.")

9/11 Commission member who said the government knew beforehand and then resigned (was given cushy job):

- Max Cleland

What's up with the obstruction of investigation?

- FBI, CIA complain NSA destroying documents relating to 9/11 and American companies/citizens (Nov. 2001)
- Anthrax to Daschle, then "polite" request he back off 9/11 (late 2001).
- Senators on Congressional inquiry probed by FBI (subject of inquiry!) and nearly forced to take lie detector test.
- Investigation heads Goss/Graham were meeting with ISI Chief on 9/11, but failed to pursue Pakistan connections in investigation.
- From their report, 28 pages and many passages censored, even a glossary entry.
- No PDBs.
- Kean a business partner of Bin Laden family interests.
- Latest farce: Commission to consider issuing a subpeona for its own notes (which the White House kept and now refuses to release).

What about what the families have to say?

- Breitweiser and Kleinberg statements to the investigation.
- Ellen Mariani suits.

Face it.

[Minstrel Boy]

40. Good post!

The old canard "someone would have talked." (Then when they do, they must be crazy.)

Robert Wright, FBI Special Agent, said New York agents had prior knowledge - including date and targets, and names of hijackers - yet were forbidden from pursuing the investigation, even threatened. He's been subject to at least three internal investigations since coming forward and slapped with a gag order.

Steven Butler was threatened with court martial, and finally shipped out of his position as Dean of Monterey Language School, after he wrote that "Bush knew," and drew attention to the fact that 9/11 hijackers had studied at his military academy.

Michael Springman, 20-year State Department vet, fired after complaining about the CIA's used of the Jeddah visa bureau to funnel al Qaeda members into the US for training. Suggests on Canadian national news that those who died on September 11 "may have been sacrificed in order to further wider US geopolitical objectives."

FBI counterintelligence real-time translator Sibel Edmonds is fired after complaining about ignored security breaches, her supervisor instructing her to slow down and intentionally deleting her work. She was escorted from the building with the warning "We will be watching you and listening to you. If you dare to consult an attorney who is not approved by the FBI, or if you take this issue outside the FBI to the Senate, the next time I see you, it will be in jail."

Are whistleblowers rewarded? No. Keep your head down, shut up, and you'll be alright.

[_Jumper_]

101. Salman Rushdie?

What did he say and how would he know about it?

[JackRiddler]

103. Long time ago, I can't find it directly...

In the first week or two after the attacks he said that he was not surprised something happened because the FAA or FBI had prohibited him from flying in the week before 9/11.

[_Jumper_]

104. Oh ok

I was surprised to see him on that list.

[JackRiddler]

39. PS Nixon

QUOTE: "Look at what happened to Nixon with the Watergate scandal. All hell broke loose after finding out about that."

Why do you parade your ignorance, sir? It's very suspicious, you should at least know what you're talking about when you write it in a public forum?

Watergate burglars caught bugging DNC: summer 1972.

Nixon reelected in landslide: Nov. 1972. (Oh look, everyone kept the secret long enough to get something essential done.)

Biggest bombing runs on Vietnam: Dec. 1972.

Scandal starts breaking, finally, and only as a result of MUCH LARGER scandals that a consensus of the power wants to keep covered up: late 1973.

Nixon finally resigns, after every effort to obstruct: Apr. 1974.

Nearly two years.

You call that "all hell breaking loose after finding out about that"?

In the case of Iran Contra, the head investigator (Inouye) said at the outset of the inquiry that a second Watergate had to be avoided to preserve the country.

Years the Iran Contra conspirators got away with it despite continuous revelations and confirmations about their crimes: 18 and counting.

Years since many of them returned to power in the Bush Regime: 3 and counting.

Hmmmm...

[mac2]

44. Keeping secrets

"How could SO many people keep a secret like this for so long?"

1.The media has kept it out of the public eye..and ears. Remember most the public get their information from TV news such as FOX and CNN. We are kept in the dark by corporate media. The first way to steal a democracy is it not?

Only the Internet and published books discuss the events, reasons, etc. You can't be lazy...you must educate yourself. Seems a lot of Americans are too lazy to do so.

2.When people come forth ( such as Kelly, Kay, Whistle Blowers, Scott Ritter,etc.)to tell the truth their careers and lives are ruined. Some die in "accidents".

I read where CIA and FBI agents fled to Sweden for protection after 9/11 fearing for their lives. Why is that? Know too much?

3.It is declared a "conspiracy theory by nuts" by both parties in power. You see them on CSPAN spinning the lie everyday.

[banana republican]

35. Just following the trial in Germany

is enough to conclude that the WH was informed prior to 911. If his story is true; and the German Courts seem to think that it is; we don't need B* internal security breifing.

If he didn't know; he should have. If he did know he still should have done something.


It is his watch.

q. Were you President of the US
a. Yes
q. Were the world trade centers destroyed
a. yes

[Tinoire]

37. Northwoods 2001 without a doubt in my mind. Bush/Carlye Inc for NWO

are evil pure and simple. This attack & its consequences were predicted to the Russian Duma back in August 2001 when one of their economists briefed the DUMA that Russia needed to dump the dollar ASAP because there was going to be a catastrophic strike at the heart of the US. Russia dumped the dollar and made gold coin legal tender.

People can scoff all they want but it would be a good idea to remember Dr. Kelly's ominous words before being murdered. Bush, Blair, Sharon and their cabal are an evil and you will never convince me that they serve any force of good- the contrary.

[rocktop15]

41. Thanks for the insight

I posted that because that's what my dad was telling me earlier. I'm 18 and try to read as much as I can and be involved with politics so yes, I am, perhaps, a bit ignorant =). Anyway, this site rocks! Keep up the good work!

[Tinoire]

42. Anytime. Welcome to DU

Bush Sr's New World Order is going to be very painful in the making.

Peace & Welcome! :toast: Just keep on reading & rocking!

[mac2]

47. Rocktop gets involved

More of your generation should get involved in learning about their government, history, and leaders. It is your future they are ruining with all the debt, war, etc. Legislation passed now will impact your pensions, savings, health care, etc.

The Ronald Reagan debt still has not been paid from twenty years ago...only increased by the next two Bushs. That's why people say...your children will be paying off this debt.

If you don't have good jobs how can you have a future for a family, etc.? If your taxes and interest rates too high...it's hard to pay off your debt or own a home. Other countries own you and control your foreign policy, buy your country, etc. (like we do to S.America).

Let's not get into the obvious about "unending war" to your future and the earth's enviornment.

Yes...it's your future and you should know how it will effect you. Knowledge is power.

Your Dad's a cool guy.

[mac2]

43. 9/11- Who Done It?

I just finished a book called, Stranger Than Fiction by Dr. Albert D. Pastore, Ph.D. If interested...you can get it from Book Surge.

Many of these stories were in the papers and Internet..I read many of them. This books puts them all together. I knew on 9/11 who attacked us. I've been watching certain government leaders that wanted us in the ME from the Bush/Clinton years, etc.

The day after 9/11 a young man called Mike Malloy ieAmericanradio.com show. He said, "Now you know what we've been suffering all these years (referring to Israel, I guess)." He then hung up. He had an American accent...obviously not Israeli born. He suffered very little living here compared to the Israeli or Palestinian people. He's what I call a "couch warrior".

If someone wrote a novel about 9/11...and told of the story as it happened...people would have laughed and said how ridiculous it all was...for the US President to just sit there while people jumped out of tall buildings, etc. It seems when presented with facts and time lines, etc. real life...they still laugh at it.

They can't face that their own leaders would do this horrible thing to them. I don't know why not. It was done in Germany by NAZIS, in this country with Pearl Harbor,Vietnam,Cuba, etc. How many times do people have to be hit on the head to know...it did and could happen again?

My decision...The Axis of Evil: Bush/Blair/Sharon for World Order Union.

Life is stranger than fiction rings true for 9/11 and the events to follow to the most powerful democracy in modern history.

[DemLikr]

46. LIHOP/LIHOP PLUS , BUT one thing doesn't fit: Shrub's demeanor on 9/11

Remember how he disappeared all day into the evening and no word or visual was heard from him?

Then the first person close to him we saw was Karen What's-her-fuck giving a quick briefing that evening (I remember almost wishing SHE was prez at that point; at least we'd have someone with balls in charge).

THEN finally later that evening we got to see the Shrubster give his behind-the-desk speech ON TAPE, but he still LOOKED LIKE COMPLETE AND UTTER SHIT, as though he'd been crying all day. My guess is he completely lost it and freaked out that day, they had to sedate, medicate and rehabilitate him before propping him up behind that imitation Oval Office Desk in a secret secure location.

So, if Shrub knew ahead of time, why would he be so freaked?

My guess is LIHOP/LIHOP PLUS, but SHRUB KNEW NOTHING OR LITTLE ABOUT IT. As in all other cases, he is used as the figurehead, the spokesperson, the talking head front for Cheney and the true masterminds.

Thoughts?

[mac2]

48. Bush a puppet?

You could be right. Bush is just a puppet (like Hitler to his handlers)for his family and Cheney, etc. He should have not taken the job in the first place.

He might have been horrified that they might link the act to him. He wanted out and not flown around all day. It was dam inconvenient. This was not what he planned. He wanted to be loved and admired. This would not do. He had to learn a speech at the last minute...good god.

I doubt, he was blameless or clueless. Bush is not that much of a moron..just a manipulator.

[ignatius]

49. In my post above, I said the same thing. I think he was told

something was going to happen, maybe they even told him that a simulation was being done that day(that might be the basis for that story.) That would explain his not answering Card when he was told the 2nd tower was hit, he didn't think it was real, just part of the "game."

Then when he finally found out this is no game, he was scared shitless, but was such a big part of it that there was no way out. I remember the way he looked at Poppy at the memorial services a few days later..bitter,pissed,hate filled..that was the look I saw.

Immediately afterwards they fed hin some bullshit song and dance, how he was chosen by God to change the world, stroked him good and voila..Little King George was born..to fulfill his God given right to control the ME and create a new world order for the good of mankind..particularly the mankind that owns oil refineries

All I know is the looks he was giving Poppy were not your I love and respect you dad glances given in a NORMAL family.

[JackRiddler]

50. kick

x

[mac2]

51. If looks could kill...Georgie

Interesting. I didn't see that at the memorial service. It was all so surreal anyway.

Bet Cheney, Perle, Daddy bat him around too.

[JasonBerry]

52. My opinion exactly

That's how I feel. It was a job handled outside of the "normal" channels and shrub never knew a thing. I really think there are some evil people pulling some strings, but I question if shrub knew, and possibly could not be trusted. His behavior that day seems to lend credence to this theory. One step further - he may still not know! So many possibilities.

[KayLaw]

56. Possibility

Maybe he knew there would be an attack but didn't realize it would be as devastating and deadly as it was.

[JackRiddler]

53. Preliminary results

With 227 voting we have

25 percent going for the first three options, in which the Bush regime or other elements of the U.S. government may be negligent, incompetent, or reckless, but in no way intentionally allowed the attacks or had sufficient foreknowledge to prevent them.

In the nether zone, 12 percent choose "Wishing for Pearl Harbor," meaning there was a provocation or vague foreknowledge of a welcome attack, but no active facilitation or ability to prevent it.

That's 37 percent.

And the scenarios of active orchestration (LIHOP-Plus) or a full inside job conceived by some Hollywood friends of the CIA take 60 percent.

Half of the DU voters subscribe to LIHOP/LIHOP-Plus, the inside job variant in which there actually real hijackers but with overall orchestration in the hands of the regime. While 10 percent go for the hardcore MIHOP/Northwoods scenarios.

No one is buying third-state attacks, rogue factions, or any of that stuff. So with the crowd here it's either the official story of hijackers, acting on their own and succeeding in their murderous ambitions, or an inside job.

Just 3 percent take the quite noble option of don't know, since, um, we don't. None of us. 100 percent. No. (Exciting, isn't it? Not.)

[durutti]

55. There's little evidence supporting LIHOP.

Therefore, I tend to think it's either the official story or incompetence.

[Minstrel Boy]

57. After closely following the unravelling of the official story,

I have to say, sez you. ;)

I didn't begin predisposed to LIHOP. I thought the neocons simply made the most of a tragedy. But the more I discovered, the more I came to the ugly conclusion that LIHOP best fit the evidence. It sickened me, and it still does.

[durutti]

62. Unravelled how?

Sure, they lied or exagerrated some things to make themselves look better, but where's the evidence that they consciously decided to let it happen?

[ignatius]

59. No evidence, eh? Take a look at this 10 page timeline,

then follow the links to a 200 page timeline.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-up10pg

Also, on a different thread today is word that Richard Clarke,the NSC couterterrorism expert who briefed Bush on 8-6-2001, has a take no prisoners book due out next month.

Stay tuned..

[JackRiddler]

60. durutti

"There's little evidence supporting LIHOP"? That's all you have to say? How convincing! Why don't you at least repost your "Myths of 9/11" piece on this thread - it's well worth demolishing?

Meanwhile three questions for you:

What was the evidence for the outrageous Saddam-Qaeda conspiracy theory, the main insinuation presented to the American people (in the propaganda, not the official documents) as the reason to go to war? Wouldn't you have to admit there's more evidence to connect Qaeda and Bin Laden to CIA and the Bush mob than there is for Qaeda-Saddam?

Yes or no section: Is the Bush regime a gangster regime or not? Were the predictable consequences of 9/11 beneficial to their interests? Would they ever commit a great crime to advance those interests? Do you think American lives are inherently more valuable to them (if they can get away with it) than the lives of all the other people they have massacred dating back to the 1980s?

What is the evidence for the official story, by the way? The Magic Passport? The bag that didn't make the plane? The documents "found" in the hotel room two weeks after the alleged hijackers stayed there? The false translation of a video non-confession by the "Fat Osama" impostor? The lame Sept. 2001 Blair paper? The remastered hijacker confession videos (in which we see shots of the attacks behind the confessors who supposedly died in them)? The supposed confessions of special prisoners Zubaydah, Binalshibh and KSM, who are being kept in undisclosed locations? And what does the at-least partial planting of evidence indicate? Why should I not suspect those who are trying to fool me with planted evidence?

[rman]

74. you mean you haven't looked at it

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org

http://www.wtc7.net/
http://911research.wtc7.net/

official story about the wtc7 collapse is "we don't know":

FEMA
World Trade Center Building Performance Study
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtcreport.htm

chapter 5 (wtc7)
http://www.house.gov/science/hot/wtc/wtc-report/WTC_ch5.pdf

page 31
5.7 Observations and Findings

"...Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue."

[JackRiddler]

61. kick

k

[Sterling]

63. You should write a book.

I really enjoy your posts on this stuff. You really lay out the arguement better than almost anyone else I have seen.

Check out the Osama is a Bush promo clip at:


www.harbingerpro.com

[JackRiddler]

67. Thank you!

That means a lot, coming from you. Hope we can team up again in the future. (You ever read the 80s comic Marvel Team Up? Very silly. Spiderman would run into some other good guy in a dark alley or something and they'd mistake each other for bad guys, then have a fight sort of to test out what that would look like for the Marvel fans. Then they'd team up after all against the real villains.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

64. SAUDI/TALIBAN DOUBLE CROSS, BUSH APATHY (really, corruption)

Bush had to provide cover for the Saudis because the Bush clan and the Binladens have been working together for a long time, and know each other's secrets. Then the Saudis made their move, and the Bush people were too corrupted to do anything. I don't think the Bushes ever trusted the Saudis, but what choice did they have but to provide cover? And fly them out of the country before the FBI could question them?

[JackRiddler]

65. Where's Durutti?

Come on, your namesake was not known for ducking a fight.

Let's have your "Myths of 9/11" post right here. If you are serious, you must answer with argument, not with single sentence throw-offs.

[RBHam]

66. NWO Rules

The only theory that explains everything from JFK's assassination to 9-11.

[bhunt70]

68. voted for 2 but 2-3(between apathy and incompitence) is my choice.

[JackRiddler]

69. kick

[JackRiddler]

70. kickeroo

xxx

[JackRiddler]

71. the last kick?

no mo?

[Selwynn]

72. As surprised as some of you may be, I'm not 1 or 2

Everyone assumes that I'm either one or two because I speak out so forcefully against those who speak with absolute certainty about scenarios like six.

However, I voted four, and have an open mind to five. That's where I'm at. I don't feel that the evidence I see indicates six, seven, eight or nine more than it indicates four or five. I don't feel the evidence indicates one, two or three more than it indicates four or five. That's not the same as saying I don't believe we should continue to study the evidence and seek more information. What I react negatively to, are those who state with absolutely authority that six+ happened, when we are nowhere near the place of being able to conclusively prove anything.

The biggest problem with five is that is is brutally difficult to prove. It's pretty hard to speculate conclusively about what was going on inside the minds of those in the Administration.

That's where I'm at. Still looking at evidence.

[Q]

76. Certainly you know that...

...'the best conspiracy theory is one that CAN'T be proven'?

- The very idea of perpetuating this type of crime is planning ahead to NOT be caught. Plausible deniability is always part of the plan.

[Selwynn]

77. Plausible deniability is always part of ANY plan.

A murderer who pleads not guilty when he really did it is trying to plausibly deny what he did. That doesn't EXCUSE THE JURY from looking that the FACTS of the case and not just assuming he's guilty based on a long chain of circumstantial inferences, gut feelings, or pre-biased feelings toward the defendant.

Here's how absurd you are to me: you're little different than the guy who says space aliens caused the towers to blow up. I ask for evidence, and the guy points to tons of scattered fragmented links that if interpreted one way almost seem like they point his direction, but can also be interpreted many other ways. I tell him that the evidence just doesn't point to his theory above other theories, doesn't rule out other possibilities and seems actually to be less likely than some other explanations based on the current evidence..

....and the replys that of course his claim that space aliens did it can't be proven because if it could be proven then it wouldn't be a massive conspiracy now would it. There's something flawed with that logic.

But the most important point is this: proof is one thing, but not only do people like you have none of that you have failed to do something which makes your case far more damning. You want to convince me of a more clandestine conspiracy - then go about eliminating other extremely likely possibilities. Even if you can't prove a conspiracy theory, you are NEVER off the hook for eliminating other possibilities conclusively - NOT speculatively.

This is why the great Sherlock Holmes (hehe) gives us the best and ONLY CORRECT approach to investigating the possibility of conspiracy theories -- conclusively eliminate other possibility. When you eliminate the possible, whatever remains however unlikely must be the truth.

But you don't do that, because we can't yet eliminate many different possibilities. And my only real complaint are people like yourself who treat possibility like absolute fact.

[Sterling]

82. I can accept that but

Often in your discussions on the subject I have noticed you avoid the specific issues and points that would bring one to conclude that LIHOP or MIHOP are the answer.

I would enjoy reading your thoughts on these points more than blanket rejections and sometimes apeals to ridicule of others who are researching the subject.

[Selwynn]

95. On the contrary

I've responded to any specific I've been asked. I also feel that the form of the debate is as important (not more important but as important) as the specific examples. So to me it is as important to point out how, when and why people move away from critical rational intelligent thinking and drift into emotional sensationalist biased inferential uncritical unreflective pre-assumption thinking.

I also question your assertion that my comments amount to "appeals to ridicule" which is not in fact a formal or informal fallacy -- it is also known as a "critique." I have a serious problem with a lack of skepticism and a predisposition toward personal biases - that's not "ridicule" that's just an honest critique. Those who employ emotions, intuition and gut feeling over skeptical, critical, objective inquiry are not actually "researchers" of anything. With the exception of that post above where I meant to type "here's how absurd your position is to me" intead of just "you", my posts have to do with issues of method and criticality not perosnal individuals - but I'll call a spade a spade if that's what it is, and there's a lot of piss-poor thinking being thrown around in here and that's what it deserves to be called.

As far as specifics go, do a search on my posts and see the times when people have asked me for direct response to specific issues and I've given it. I don't think I've avoided one direct question, ever.

I'm about to leave and may or may not have time to respond again today, but before I go, please understand that I believe how we look at the facts is just as important as what those facts actually are. And the reason I feel that way is because I don't believe an uncritical careless approach to a question will lead you to correct answers. Much of the extreme sensationalistic, inferential, pre-assumed statements of conspiracy theorists have two huge problems for me: 1) they represent a careless lack of critical thought and scientific rigor and 2) they fail to provide the one and only thing that can provide very strong evidence for this kind of a theory: the elimination of all other possibilities. You show me why your theory is the only truly plausible theory and eliminate other possible explanation and your theory gains credibility.

So far, no one has done that. One man's theory about what happened is about as plausible as another's. That's I posted what I did, that right now I don't believe that six+ is any more plausible or has greater evidentiary support that four or five. And no one has conclusively ruled out four or five - so where no where near the place where we can say with absolute certainty that Six is what really happened. Many people here try to do that, and they are mistaken. I'm sorry if that offends you for me to speak so matter of fact about this, but that's just the way it is.

[JackRiddler]

96. thanks

for taking your views and those of others seriously.

[gandalf]

73. Elements of 5, 6, 7

I think 5 is not sufficient. OBL and his gang was set up as a major threat years before. Probably OBL and some evil guys exist, but they are not much more than a part of the "9/11"-legend, the construction of which Chaim Kupferberg tries to analyze in his paper.

[molly]

75. 5 - FULL LIHOP/LIHOP PLUS

they had the intelligence a full week before it happened.

[JackRiddler]

79. long as people are still voting (broke 300)

might as well morning kick

[Sterling]

80. I agree

and check out the thread "9-11 activists arrested at ground zero".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1101041

Jack I really do think you should be working on a book or some other media about 9-11.

[Sterling]

81. Lets hope Kerry surprises us

at takes Bush to task on 9-11.

[fla nocount]

90. Not a chance....they're lodge buddies.

They share a snuggle bunny coffin experience. DLC....RNC, hell, they even share their alphabet soup.

[Sterling]

97. Bush on meet the press

When asked about S&B and Kerry could only respond, "it's so secret I can't talk about it". Makes me feel better.

[Ediacara]

84. I am really not sure

I voted for the option I am most confident of, Saudi/Taliban double cross. I do believe that some elements of the LIHOP theory are viable, and that the behavior of the Bush Whitehouse is terribly incriminating in some respects.

The failure of the Air National Guard on 9-11 is very telling.

Bush's long stay with the Very Hungry Catepiller is very telling.

Jeb's state of emergency on 10 Sept is very telling.

Yet, I am still skeptical of the amount of knowlege that people in the Whitehouse had prior to event.

Perhaps I am overly generous when talking about the level of marality and conscience present in people like Colin Powell, but I simply can't believe that no one in the Whitehouse has talked, if it genuinely was a plot that at least a few cabinet secretaries knew about.

[JackRiddler]

86. keeping it going

[JackRiddler]

87. another shameless kick...

just downloaded Les Visible, "9/11 Was an Inside Job" - great song!!!!

Well I'm not a lizard
with an uncle named Bob
but I know 9/11 was an inside job!

[politick]

88. Great (FUNNY) Link:

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/liar.html

and I vote LIHOP, btw.

[JackRiddler]

89. yes, good!

x

[JackRiddler]

92. Final morning kick

Feb. 11, 2004

29 months and still no credible investigation.

[noonwitch]

93. Somewhere between 2 &5.

I think that incompetence, wanting to push the oil agenda at any cost and purposely ignoring evidence of a threat is what led to 9-11.

[Solomon]

94. Okay Jack. Good job at keeping it kicked because now Solomon weighs

in.

I'm sick to f***ing death of people talking about incompetence and asleep at the switch. I get so mad when I hear this bullshit that I'm almost as angry at these subscRibers as I am at the perpetrators.

How is it that we can brag all the f***ing time about how great America is, the best trained military, etc., but when something like this happens, we immediately accept that not only are we mediocre, but doggone lazy, sleepy, and incompetent.

We spend billions of dollars on defense. Our military drills drills drills for these things. Yet the very moment it happens, people accept the "so surprised they didn't know what to do" bullshit. Hell, that's why you drill everyday.

I've never done this before, but I'm so angry I just gotta say it: You people make me sick. You just make me f****ing SICK!!! Why aren't all you "incompetent/asleep at the switch" people hollering for discipline? Where I work, If a person specifically f***ed up as bad as our people did on 9-11, THEY GET FIRED! They do not get promoted. Where is the outcry demanding that the people in charge of the various links along the chain be replaced?

I have more respect for the perpetrators, than I do for the crybabies who want to believe that our people are so incompetent that they had no procedures to follow in the event of national emergencies.

When somebody can explain why Standard Operating Procedures WERE NOT FOLLOWED, from the residency, all the way down the line, without spouting such nonsense as surprise, incompetence, or just sleeping, then I'll calm down. There's no way in hell a man with a turban on his head, sitting in a cave in the middle of nowhere, could pull off 9-11. I gotta stop cause I'm getting so damn mad all over again. People are stupid enough to believe in the boogey sandman, but facts staring them in the face can't be dealt with. ARrrrghh!

:argh:

[RBHam]

98. I voted NWO rules

All the Western Intel Agencies are run, at the very top, by NWO directors who follow the master plan. Their minions at the various think tanks and private institutions, their minions in the media and their minions in the Government are mostly out of the main loop. They run compatrmentalized units, independent of each other, on a need to know business. Some propagandists and planners are actual true believers, others are just contracted, some are oblivious.
Like wheels within wheels.

I read the book "Rule By Secrecy" by Jim Marrs about a year before 9-11. The dots began connecting even then, about how the creation of the CIA led ultimately to the take over of the Government by the Military/Indusrtial/Corporate Complex and the slow and steady inculcation of the Security State. The War On Communism led to the War on Drugs and so on to the War On Terror.

I've noticed how 9-11 was used to justify a War of Aggression that Americans would never otherwise have tolerated.

Without 9-11, there is no way the Neo-Conservative elite could have realized their plans so quickly.

They needed 9-11.

They exploited 9-11.

They were ready for it.

Put it together.

[JackRiddler]

99. the truly final kick

Feb. 11, 29 mos, was today...

[fla nocount]

100. PIKER...this is the final kick.

[_Jumper_]

102. NWO rules

The insider trading that occurred worldwide right before 9/11, the Russian decision that was mentioned earlier in the thread, financial backing from Pakistan's ISI and Saudi Arabia, the 2001 Israeli Mossad spy ring that was busted in 2001 for spying on (or perhaps even for them) Arabs, which had tentacles in areas where hijackers resided, the Bush administration's announcement in the summer of 2001 that Afghanistan would be attacked in mid-October, CIA meeting with Bin Laden in 2001 according to French intelligence, close ties between the Bushes and Bin Ladens, and PNAC's desperate need for a Perle Harbor lead me to believe this was a NWO plot. LIHOP does not account for all this IMO.

[DuctapeFatwa]

105. I voted Northwoods by mistake, meant to click NWO

Can somebody fix it?

[JackRiddler]

106. you are being mildly ironic

I presume?

[DuctapeFatwa]

107. LOL not this time! I really did click the wrong box

Nothing against the Northwoods option, just that I watched the towers implode...