I'm stepping over dead bodies in battlefield of Du...and wonder who's left

[KoKo]

alive who cares WHY we went into this battle. I'm sick of the candidate race at this point. Whatever happens with that will happen. The Media and Candidate failings will be the reason for who Washington Decided will be the next General to lead the American Troops the way they want it all to go.

I'm focusing (or trying to) on Democratic Underground and why I joined this site after the "Selection" when our "TRUE PRESIDENT" was elected and it was stolen by the BFEE! Gore was flawed but he wasn't any more flawed than other Presidents America has elected.

The point is THAT ELECTION was STOLEN. No one will ever convince me otherwise...

And the PROOF of that Stolen Election is embodied in the turmoil and torment we've suffered with ever since the "Chimp in Thief" or "Usurper" or whatever you want to call that man and his cronies and his Poppy and Grandpoppy who used this country for their illgotten gains are or should be called. I can't be "respectful to these people" so I use epithets to describe them.

We are NOT focusing on our House and Senate and what is going on in America here. We are focusing on a HORSERACE.....a SPORTS GAME...where Viacom/MTV/MURDOCH/GE/AOL/ and the rest of them decide who we are as Americans and what happens to our lives as Americans.

We are losing why we came to Democratic Underground. And, if this isn't where I should be anymore...then please PM me with the new site which will deal with the Underground issues which are close again to being buried under the zeal for "ELECTABILITY" in our latest Horse Race! I've been there and done that with candidate after candidate in my long Democratic Party history.

I want to focus on Media, Economy, Corporate Corruption, Campaign Finance Reform, Health Care, Social Security,Fair Competitive Wages for White Collar and Blue Collar Workers, Immigration, Job Outsourcing, the Insecurity of the American Lifestyle, the lack of an AMERICAN CULTURE, Loss of the Arts in America..with innovation being lost, the WALMARTIZATION and Mall-ization of our Cities and Towns, the fact that we BOWL ALONE....we do so much ALONE!

I want a place where we can still discuss this and not be DROWNED OUT!

Where is there that place.....If we tried it here and lost it....does it still exist?

A rant.....from a frustrated Koko..

[salinen]

1. THAT ELECTION was STOLEN. No one will ever convince me otherwise...

It was sooooooooooo stolen.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Maybe we need a forum folder

to cover those topics??

But I agree, I like to keep those same issues alive and kicking around here too. Folks may be sick of me promoting election reform, but it means the world to me so I won't shut up about it til we get it.

[Sterling]

3. I agree the primary season brought in a different crowd.

People who have really lowered the level of discourse and are here for the wrong reasons IMHO.

[salinen]

4. May I postulate further to say

that when pugs realized that after SCOTUS selected the fraud, and there was no blood in the street, that they knew that they could get away with anything. And haven't they!

[KoKo]

8. I fear there will be "blood in the streets" again. I've been here on the

planet long enough to know that it's coming...And, I want to avoid it, if we can...But, given the "blood in the streets" here on DU that I see being here for over two years...I think it can't be avoided.

There's so much anger and outrage at what many of us here see as the ultimate in hypocracy and the decimating of our culture and our political system for nothing but greed and shallowness of thought.

:-(

[Kanary]

25. So... why does that necessitate attacking each other???

I keep hearing it's because people are so angry about what has happened.

Tearing into each other is a sure way to go down.

It's what tears apart marriages, and families and neighborhoods.

It *is* possible to support each other, rather than dump on each other.

It's not true that it can't be avoided... families learn to avoid dumping their outside rage on each other, and so can other adults.

Otherwise, all is lost.

Kanary

[Beam Me Up]

32. I agree with everything your saying. . .and here's another question:

Why should we call ourselves "Democrats" when the party leadership is in the hands of the elites who oppose--are absolutely dead set against--furthering the very issues you aspouse? I want an answer to this question from those who call themselves "progressive Democrats." I want to know WHY I should vote for John Kerry, for example. At the moment, other than the fact that I hate *, I don't have ANY MOTIVATION to support putting yet another RICH WHITEMAN into a "leadership role." So, does that mean *I* don't belong here?

[sweetheart]

36. 1000's to millions

Sterling, i really relate. However, when we put all of america in the room, which is my communist-DU fantasy, the education level of the dialog, in a pure democracy would be primitive, due to the law of averages and real education, and geez, life-time constraints.

The more people who come there, of the masses, are the regulars on television america, aware of no political life at all, and uncaring. Methinks in church DU, unless we implement some nomination system, the law of averages will take the post quality down as the numbers increase, and the flood increases. New and short time visitors do not get to know the core and to enjoy some of their really finest work. Also, each member of the core, if they're honest, has a group of other writers they like to read on this site, this 50 first degrees of DU freedom.

Unless you have a way of nominating writers and a fair voting system not like "winner" but just nominated. Imagine if next to your name, was a nomination list, that you could choose not to show, in your profile, but if showing, would have an icon for DU speakers spring 02, DU speakers summer 03. Then when other people were combing through things, they might see that you have been seen as inspiring to the other people on teh forum at that time, and that an unfamiliar visitor seeing 1000's of different names all meaningless, would at least have a better shot at getting a considerate piece that carried more essense.

[Generic Other]

5. Many of us have stayed out of the fray the past few months

Like you, we know there's a more important battle to be fought. Saving our energy, rage and fight for that one!

You are not alone KoKo.

[KoKo]

9. Many thanks......haven't seen you around. I just can't stop about this...

and maybe I should have taken that long break....:-(.....but thanks, means alot.

[Tansy_Gold]

22. I'm with you, KoKo

I think there may be blood in the streets, especially if the bushnazis steal it all again.

Exit polling yesterday showed something like 80% of Arizona dems are either "very angry" or at least "dissatisfied" with * and his evil minions. We had almost double the expected turn-out here, and there were record turn-outs in Iowa and NH, too, where the weather wasn't nearly as favorable as here. People are angry, and I think if the anger over the 2000 theft kind of died down a little bit over the past couple of years, it's all festering again.

I have to say that for the most part, I've stayed away from that other forum, preferring to post on a few issues here in GD or make observations in LBN, but the vitriol, the hatred, the sheer verbal violence I've seen in that other place told me that it was not a place I wanted to go.

Sadly, I've seen the same internecine anger on other lists and boards, and I worry about it. Maybe most of the anger is coming from those who aren't accustomed to the political arena and think it's all a battle to the death each time. maybe some of them will learn a little bit and be a little wiser by the time August and September roll around. Maybe -- or maybe not.

[AndyTiedye]

6. The House Races are Too Painful to Talk About

Any chance of taking back the House has been gerrymandered away until at least 2012.
It is mathematically impossible.

[tarheel]

39. I agree with you Andy

but the good news is that if we can get the * out of the White House, I don't think the Repukes will be able to elect a filibuster proof majority to Congress, even with the gerry-mandering they have engaged in over the past three years all over the country, and I am absolutely certain they will not be able to elect a presidential veto overturning majority !

This should force them to back away from the radical neo-con agenda that the * administration has pursued after * portrayed himself as a "compassionate conservative" and a "uniter, not a divider" in campaign 2000.

So, all is not lost as long as we can get * out !

[papau]

7. I agree KoKo - but now job one is get rid of Bush

A focus on "Media, Economy, Corporate Corruption, Campaign Finance Reform, Health Care, Social Security,Fair Competitive Wages for White Collar and Blue Collar Workers, Immigration, Job Outsourcing, the Insecurity of the American Lifestyle, the lack of an AMERICAN CULTURE, Loss of the Arts in America..with innovation being lost, the WALMARTIZATION and Mall-ization of our Cities and Towns, the fact that we BOWL ALONE"....sounds like the right political goals - but after we get rid of Bush.

:-)

[MoonAndSun]

10. What a great post, KoKo01....

I couldn't agree more. It has been painful being here at DU since last fall, the ugliness in the primary 2004 threads have been hurtful on all sides. So many other important stories have been drowned out by the nastiness some have displayed here.

I do not come here as often as I used to, but I still check in on LBN, DU is the only place that I have found that keeps me up to date on what is happening in the world, so don't leave us. Stay here and keep fighting the good fight. :hi:

[John BigBootay]

11. I ask this question in all honesty and good faith--

I don't believe the election was "stolen," but I do believe the election was a casualty of a political system that is not perfect, and the system, when tested, relied on the intervention of judges as opposed to the veracity of the ballots.

It came down in a way I didn't like, but to me this is water under the bridge. For others, it is not. I can respect that to a certain extent.

Many here believe that Bush is a neo-Hitler who stole the election and has waged an illegal war for fun and profit, and has done many other vile things too numerous to mention. I agree with a few of these points, but see his motivations and means somewhat differently. However, if I believed in the absolute, abject tyranny that is possible or even occuring, I'd be fixing for more than another stab at an election-- I'd be preparing to wage war. Real war or revolution.

We have all played the game of "what would you do" if you found yourself plopped back into Nazi Germany pre-WWII.

Well... You can complete the thought process.

The fact that we are not entertaining these thoughts seriously means one of two things to me:

1. We are complete and utter cowards.

2. Bush, the "selection," the war, the PATRIOT Act in fact do not rival the evil of Hitler's Germany and we are exaggerating the situation to make a point.

[KoKo]

13. John Big......I was out protesting every weekend before Iraq Invasion in

two of my NC cities. I inhaled more gasoline fumes than I ever want to in my life again, and many flipped birds, and shouts of "why don't you people get a job" and yet many more "honk your horn for peace, honks" and smiles and "Peace V's" that kept all of us going.

Many have wondered why we Democrats didn't "take to the streets" during the "FLA Recount." It was the holiday time this was all going on....the traditional TG/XMAS time when people are focused on families. Most people were looking at "hanging chads...and stuff" fed to us by a media that wanted it all over with. Those of us who were older and knew something wasn't on the "up and up" when they brough Poppy Bush's old "retreads" in (Baker) to put the screws on.....got alarmed, but we still had a naive belief that our government would work amd the Florida Supreme Court would come through and that our system of laws and "checks and balances" would hang in their and be fair. When it got out of hand and into the US Supreme Court, most of us were shocked it would go that far but we were heavy on into holiday, although still thinking the Supremes would decide it....when they had the guy whose wife was a media whore against Clinton (Barbara Olsen who died on 9/11)'s husband arguing the case for Bush....by then we knew the damned thing was fixed......

What did we do? Some few of us found DU where Skinner, Elad and Earl G had proudly hung out a banner for Democratic Underground at the Inaugural of the Chimp........

So.....that's what some of us did that I know about. We did fight in every way we could and have been since we understood that what we thought worked for the People in America ....really turned out to not be true......

[Q]

38. The ignorance about the election process...

...and Constitutional law is the reason many Americans don't consider the 2000 election as 'stolen'. But one needs only one 'clue' to understand that it was indeed stolen: the supreme court has no authority under the Constitution to stop vote counting or decide national elections.

- In fact...the 2000 election was a 'bloodless coup' by definition. That is...a few wealthy individuals used our justice system against us to manipulate the election results while their operatives committed election fraud in Florida and other places.

[MissMarple]

12. If I had a wand I'd wish your pain away. But, it's just me, with no wand.

So, we stand together and take one step at a time.

We can do this. We will do this.

:hug:

[KoKo]

14. We stand together and take one step at a time...thanks Marple...but who is

left...or are most of those now "lurking." Can we pick up the pieces?

I hope so....thanks.

[MissMarple]

17. We stand our ground. They 'll come. There is no where else to go

for many of us. What draws us together will overcome what separates us. It's like a rule. It just happens. Then we can bicker after.

:D

Remember, working with people is a messy business. It has always been so.

[progressivebydesign]

18. I've been here for three years? Could that be right? I'm still here..

I've dabbled a bit over in the GD2004 forum... but have become so disheartened by the exchanges there. I'm focusing now on MORE control of Washington.. the Senate and House. DU will recover from the infighting, those that joined in the past 6 months to push a certain election agenda, will fade away when it gets closer to nomination time. Then we can all be united again in our quest to get Bush out of office, and get some control back of our government.

I swear, it is mellowing over on that other forum. It is, and it will continue to mellow until we are down to two candidates. Then, we roll up our sleeves and get to work.

[KoKo]

23. Much work to be done, no matter who the final candidate is....

That's what I see, also. Nice to see an original. :-)'s

[Kanary]

26. It's the standing together that matters.

And, if I'm hearing your correctly, that's the part you aren't seeing so much of.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that one. I see it all around me, and it discourages me greatly.

Just today, I was told to toughen up and not let verbal violence against women bother me. Is this what it's coming to? We haven't the gumption left to care about each other, and what concerns each one of us? 'Cuz if it's all a matter of everyone getting "tough", yeah, there's going to be nothing but blood in the streets.

In previous generations, people made it through the tough times like wars and depression by being there for each other, and offering care, concern and support. Now what we have is telling each other to "get over it", and other phrases of dismissal. That weakens us, not strengthens us.

I'm glad you posted this, because I don't feel safe to post my true feelings here anymore.

Kanary

[roughsatori]

15. The intellectual honesty and general level of discourse

have dropped dramatically over the last year; but worse, the site has moved to the right. There are fewer and fewer left voices and more and more self-labeled conservatives. It is impossible to log on without reading insults to left wing Democrats or the odious "we can't fight for gay equal rights, etc. because we will look bad and it doesn't poll well." :puke:

I plan on an absolute war with the Freeper sympathizers after we have a nominee.

This site is now about as Progressive as USA Today or maybe the New York Times. "Underground" hardly. The name is now false advertising.

[KoKo]

24. all your replies give hope that there are still folks who recognize all

that work left to do. And, thanks for all the clever posts....all of you. :-)'s "ratlettes" from M. Marple...rofl...and others.....

[Kanary]

28. "As Progressive as USA Today" ^_^

Very well put, roughsatori!

You have verbalized my thoughts and feelings so very well.

"General level of discourse dropped dramatically"........ ohhh, have you hit it.

I would hate to think that this is the way it's going to be, and we who see it this way will have to once again start another site. That would be a shame, but wouldn't be the first time this has happened on the 'net.

Thanks for putting it out there so honestly!

Kanary

[dawgman]

16. I feel your pain. This place seems to be moving in the wrong direction

but once the "horse race" is over I think things will go back to the way they were. You are right though the Congress is where our energy should be spent.

[Jose Diablo]

19. It would be a hollow victory

To take the presidency but not have congress.

[MissMarple]

20. That is just the first step. We have a lot of mopping up to do.

That is when the real work begins. We can get the big rat, then there are the other little ratlettes. The real challenge is finding the mother. I don't think we have identified her yet, quite so clearly.

This work is just beginning. :evilgrin:

[K-W]

21. If Horses ran our governement, their races should be a big topic for us

You can use a nice wide brush and paint all government as phony if you like. I think most of us here are discerning enough to realize that while far from perfect, the system can certainly be used as a tool to make things better. The primary is of extreme importance to our party and our country. If you want to discuss the many topics you mentioned, then start threads about them. I am sure many people would post on them and discuss the issues.

In the meantime, why dont you let those of us who havent completely given up on the system discuss what we want to discuss?

[Kanary]

29. Uh, K-W, threads *HAVE* been started....

don't make the assumption that we aren't giving it our all.

We've seen over and over and over and over that people are willing to put their energy and time into bloodletting, but threads of more serious subjects rapidly fall to the background, and fade into the archives.

That's what this is all about.

Kanary

[rasputin1952]

27. I am here, and will be until the day I die...

or DU is no longer necessary. Death seems to be the option at this point.

I am with you KoKo. We here at DU have fought a noble fight, and we are winning, regardless of how it might seem at times. In AZ, there was a 20% rise in turnout! Other states are showing the same results, and these are DEM'S!

I am here in NE, fighting tooth and nail in one of the most GOP states there is, and I am making an impact! People are thinking, (perish the thought), and the silence from the RW is deafening!

I have 9 people that have changed to IND, (they are still too scared to go DEM). I talk to farmers, merchants, people in bank lines and grocery lines. I don't rant I ask questions and let people think, and think they do! Here in NE people are starting to become mobile, they show up when Bereuter, Hagel or Nelson show up at Town Meetings. These people are asking these guys tough questions, and are NOT cutting them slack. The fight is being won, not as quickly as we would like but the motion is there.

I have gone into GD '04 twice; I have neither the time nor the patience to spend more time in there. DU'ers minds are made up for their candidates....I am waiting for the clear winner, and then every ounce of energy I have will be put into beating bush. I don't care who the nominee is, bush must go.

So, take heart....we may take a break from time to time, (sanity can be precious), but the fight is just beginning.

Think about this for a second: bush is going on "Meet The Press" this Sunday. I see nothing but fear and failure in this administration, and for bush to be going on MTP at this point in time is a sure sign that things are working in our direction.

O8)

[catzies]

30. I studiously avoid the horse race of which you speak.

And for the same, spot-on reasons. Damn good post.

[Armstead]

31. A suggestion

Stay out of the Primary Election forum. That's where all of the bile has collected. (Yes I've contributed my share there.)

General Discussion seems more like the "old DU" with the primary Flames moved out.

[BeHereNow]

33. Paid Bashers...count on it.

Don't be discouraged Koko.
I discussed this with another DUer on PM today.
The caustic vitriol is being dispersed by paid bashers.
The intimidation and insulting self righteousness is
the behavior of cowards who would be right at home
having lunch with Lynne Cheney or Ann-the-man-Coulter.
Hate mongers...I repeat, cowards.
How do you know when one is trying to engage you?
Because they gleefully hide behind their internet curtains
typing out insults that they would never have the nerve to
actually say to your face. That is the mark of a coward.
To attack when there is no possibilty of an actual confrontation.

And like all scumbag, professional, paid, bashing hate mongers,
They will eventually be given another assignment /target
and move on to try to cause damage elsewhere.

We love you.
We need you.
Don't go.
BHN

[Snazzy]

34. ABB

Remember always, DU is a sample.

Every positive message, every committed person you see here--it's a sample. That represents thousands or tens of thousands who feel the same way.

For whatever many reasons, those people cannot or just are not here to join this fray.

You are.

That's the important message.

---------

Personally, and far less important: I have stayed out of the candidate threads. Not for a lack of passion either--which is what people have been showing. Good, glad blood is flowing. Just hope it all comes together on ABB come March or so. I think it will.

(Actually, with my low post count, in some ways I have my foot in the other camp I mention of people who are not here. Taking me as that sample, I'd hope you would find that I do not lack in commitment or knowledge about just how screwed up our democracy has become. I intend to persuade a lot of people to do something about it. Now is the time DU will have its greatest value, till November. I hope and expect you will see skads of like-minded folks show up directly. This is going to be one hell of an election fight.)


Cheers!

:toast:

(edit: clarity)

[KoKo]

40. Snazzy...and others....good to hear from "lurkers." Knowing that there

are still those who care so much..but want to be out of the "fray" right now....thanks......

[rasputin1952]

41. Post counts mean nothing...

The vote means everything.

I am of the same view that there are many who lurk and learn; some to embarrassed to post, some just not feeling inclined to post. Some of us, (me?), post often and enjoy hte fray.

Our hearts and minds are together, there lies our strength.

:hi:

O8)

[clyrc]

35. I know why I came here

I am still horrified daily by these murderous thieves who stole the election. I haven't made many comments since last summer on DU, but I've been here and I still see some good comments. I realize that I am further left than most of America, so seeing more conservative Democrats doesn't surprise me.

[9215]

37. I'd ease up a bit

just a suggestion

But hell, I'm kind of an extremist my damn self.

[berry]

42. Hi Koko!

I'm still here too, though I did take some time out and am not posting as much as before. I really got depressed by the attacks and the "horserace"-oriented discussions (probably especially since I knew from the outset that the candidates who most reflected my own views didn't have a prayer of being nominated--too far left).

I haven't much to add to all the comments above--just that I too am still enraged about 2000 (and everything following), will stick around at DU for the good stuff (which is still here--just need to look for it), and really hope that you'll be sticking around too. I do think DU goes through stages, or moods. This will pass. And this year is sooooo important. We're all going to need each other going forward.

So (as Plaid Adder says), C Ya (I hope)!