Chechnya and Russia... Does anybody care?

[dolgoruky]

What are people's opinions about what is happening in Russia at the moment? And how much significance does it have in realtion to world events? I'd be really interested to hear your analyses, but I suppose the number of replies to this thread will tell it's own story.

[Roon]

1. Imagine if this happened in New York or LA n/t

[Aidoneus]

2. imagine if what happened twice to Grozny happened to LA or NY *nt*

[loudnclear]

30. US sold its soul to Bush. Bush has made it ok for Russia to be the evil

empire it wants to be. They are free to do whatever they want to the Chechneyans. Anything against Muslims is ok with this administration.
Since Russia has free hand with its Muslims, Russia will have to bear the consequences. What goes around does really come around.

[Burma Jones]

3. This has a large significance

The Russians are being attacked by terrorists that happen to be Moslem, as we have been. The Russians are sitting on a lot of oil, but they have a lot of difficulty getting it to the world. If the Russians happen to use some very brutal tactics to deal with Chechnya, I don't think we are going to make much of a fuss. What is happening is that a lot of hatred is being created towards Islam in three very powerful nations, the USA, Russia, and don't forget India.

[Aidoneus]

4. what brutal tactics would they have left to deal out?

twice in recent memory, they have destroyed every major Chechen city (and many more minor villages), killing hundreds of thousands of people in a nation of only a million tops (if up to a quarter of the entire American people were killed by an occupying power, how would we react?), run a network of concentration camps around the small nation, routinely kidnap torture and execute people every week, sometimes every day, set up their puppet dictator with his own private army to also kidnap/torture/execute people with impunity... And not-surprisingly enough, it hasn't "worked" yet! :eyes:

What left have they to try?--nuclear weapons?

[Burma Jones]

9. And we aren't making much of a fuss, are we?

You make a good point, I wasn't aware of the extent of the brutality.

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Which brutality

The brutality mentioned here or the long line of suicide bombing, hostage taking and opera house invading from the Chechnyan insurgents?

[Burma Jones]

11. Both.

Live by the Sword, Die by the Sword

AND

And Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth will leave the whole world blind and toothless.

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Good theory

Of course, sorting things out with your enemy assumes that they want to do so.

They don't always. Fanatics are a unique bunch.

[Aidoneus]

12. quick question..

twice practically destroying a city of 400,000--for or against?

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Depends on the circumstances

We destroyed vastly larger cities than that in WWII for instance.

[Aidoneus]

16. my kingdom for a straight answer..

Ok, I'll refine it. I thought it would have been obvious what I was specifically referring to..

The destruction of Grozny twice within a decade and the thousands to perish from such indescriminate destruction, for or against?

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. I love the unbiased way you define it

Tell ya what, get me a Russian definition as well and THEN I'll answer.

[Aidoneus]

18. definition of what?

What Russian definition are you looking for? Their state-historians and propagandists do not dispute the two occasions that I refer to (or any of a multitude of others that I did not mention).. hell, they applaud it and want more of it. The phrasing is a little different, and certain key words and phrases feature prominently in the rationalization of mass murder.

What specifically are you asking for in this evasion? I asked of that above not at random or as a diversion, but to frame the subject.

I do not claim to be unbiased, my slant is obvious and not hidden.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. I want to see a Russian statement about Grozny

Not your version. Based on other discussions we've had, I instantly doubt your version of any events.

[Aidoneus]

21. I guess the feeling is mutual

if Amina was still up I could produce some dandy pictures of the handiwork, but barring that I'll just let you do your own research. It's not my fault that the subject is not familiar enough to you that such basic facts are in dispute on a general topic that I know quite well.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. You asked the question

Not I.

In general, I do assume there are two sides to the issue. And while you critique only the Russians, I note some whacked out asshole blew up a civilian train in Moscow today.

[Aidoneus]

24. eh.. I'm about to leave so I didn't have time to oblige

I ordinarily would have, but I don't think it would've meant much anyway (my patience and interest in hoop-jumping just isn't what it used to be). If you want a pointer in looking somebody up, I would suggest General Grachev with respect to the drunken bluster that led to the first blitzkreig, Russian human rights group "Memorial", etc.. If you're really interested I'll get back to this later tonight.

What exactly are you disputing here? That it happened as I describe?

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. My dispute

Based on our many conversations about the I/P conflict, when I see you criticizing another group that is battling radical Islamic fundamentalists, I am instantly wary. In fact, I assume I would find things I agree with on the opposite side of the issue.

[Aidoneus]

15. there used to be meek lip service

in the midst of rationalizing, congratulating, and assisting along their genocidal campaign. Even early on in Bush's reign there was at least the pretense of mild protestations after some minor coverage of the frequent Russian army abuses in the occupied land would skip about in the news, but no longer.

Such campaigns of mass murder are perfectly acceptable, conditionally--depending on who does it and what slogans they put forth while doing so. With the right and proper sloganeering, any of the most atrocious thing can have a fan club, as will probably be evidenced here in a short time.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

5. actually

I don't believe in the US "hatred is being created towards Islam". Hatred "is being created" toward Muslim extremists who are out to kill us. There is a slight distinction worth noting.

[Burma Jones]

8. I think you are correct if

you're talking about normal, intelligent people. I'm not so sure how many of us make that slight distinction, -I do-

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. Not just those nations

There is a worldwide war going on against extremist Muslims. Only nobody really wants to admit it. India, Israel, Russia, the U.S., Indonesia, China, the Arab world, Europe, etc.

Sooner or later, the nations of the world will admit that this is what is going on. In the meantime, the majority of non-radical Muslims better try and rein in their nutty brethren or this will get a lot uglier.

[KharmaTrain]

6. We Hear Precious Little...

American media is myopic...we're the center of the world, of course...thus events, unless it's very brutal or full of sex, it gets little play outside of the Janet/Michael/Kobe/Peterson/Clinton Hate/* Love paprika on our media outlets.

I've tried to follow activities in Chechnya, Georgia and the former Soviet republics but, unless there's a major event, even international coverage in respectable online publications are minimal. I'm appreciative to the many "newshounds" here on DU who preen the large universe of press clipping in the LBN forum...along with sources that provide even greater insight.

If I do hear any news in our media, it's through NPR...I get several outlets (Wisconsin Ideas Network, Chicago Public Radio) that offer decent international coverage (BBC at night) and NWI on the cable. The problem with NWI is it's difficult to follow a lot of the translations on the newscasts (especially the NTV ones from Moscow)or have to slog through a lot of "small stories" to get some interesting tidbits.

If you can provide some sites that have coverage in this part of the world, I'd be very interested...especially those that offer info the growing American business and military interests in that region.

That's my 2 cents worth (not sure the exchange rate this morning)

Cheers

[dolgoruky]

29. Link

Here you are. It's not great. But it's OK.

http://www.newsnow.co.uk/newsfeed/?search=chechnya&x=3&y=5

[fiorello]

20. Not like other Muslim/nonMuslim disputes

The Chechens are much more a local people, fighting for their homes, who just happen to be Muslim. Shame they have turned to terrorism (if the Moscow bombing really is them - who knows with Comrade Putin running things?) - but Muslim-vs-non-Muslim was never the main issue here.

The typical Muslim/nonMuslim dispute has two sides who hate each other and abuse each other. Chechnya is more like Kosovo - abuse almost entirely by one side, despite the apparent suicide bombing. Or like Saddam Hussein's treatment of the Kurds. Big guy abuses subject minority... doesn't matter that the Kurds are Muslim.

It's a mistake to globalize this. It only makes it worse. Whoever is Right or Wrong in Chechnya has nothing to do with global cold wars.

The U.S. is in no position to lecture Russia, though - we don't exactly have moral credibility. (Recently Bush lectured Putin on 'respecting democracy' - what a joke, they're both similar.)

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Just in case you were wondering about what Russia faces

Moscow metro blast kills 39

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- A blast tore apart a train car in the Moscow metro Friday, killing at least 39 and wounding at least 129 others, the Russian deputy interior minister said.

Prosecutors said they were treating the blast as a suspected suicide bombing and had opened a terrorism investigation.

The blast ripped apart the metro train car during morning rush hour as the train was traveling from Paveletskaya station to Avtozavodskaya station, southwest of the city center, around 8:40 a.m. (12:40 a.m. ET), Moscow's Vice Mayor Valery Shantsev said.

SNIP

"The bomb was not packed with bullets but the blast damaged the metal parts of the carriage and blew out the windows. The third carriage was also damaged."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/06/moscow.blast/index.html

[dolgoruky]

26. Chechnya and Islam

I think it's far too simplistic to paint the chaos in Chechnya as a war between Russia and Islam. The Chechen warlord Shamil Basaev is about as "muslim" as the archbishop of Canterbury. Islam seems to be a flag of convenience for these warlords, hence their unpopularity amongst the majority of Chechens and Dagestanis. What exists in Chechnya is a vacuum, and the struggle about is who is going to fill it. Or, probably more likely, what is the benefit of ending it. For cetain groups, including warlords, the Russian military, certain powerful individuals in Russia, and nor forgetting, Putin and the FSB, the "war" is highly profitable, either financially or politically.

The bomb today, coming as it does the day after Putin announced on Russian television that the presidency should be extended to 7 years, merely reconfirms my suspicion that this is NOT the work of Islamic fundamentalists, but of those who wish to generate more paranoia, thus creating an excuse to implement even harsher laws to control the Russian population.

Forget islam. Follow the money...

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. I agree

However, the Chechens have coopted radical Islam or radical Islam has coopted them. Either way, it is an essential component and they use the SAME strategies and tactics that radical Islam uses the world over.

And if they didn't blow up the train today, they sure as hell attacked the opera house and that was appalling.

[dolgoruky]

28. Who are the Chechens?

You use a pretty broad brush to paint with. Maybe it was the Dagestanis?