Gay marriage/I'm really getting fed up

[Sandpiper]

With the weak kneed, lilly livered support I'm seeing from a lot of DUers regarding the right of our gay brothers and sisters to be married. The most common equivocating I hear is:

"But it doesn't poll well."

or

"The Republicans will use it against us."


or

"It's not a winning issue."


or the particularly insidious


"Can't you just wait until the election is over?"


It's time to grow a spine people!!! The struggle for civil rights and equality never was and never will be easy, that's why it's called a struggle.

If the mods deem this flame bait, so be it.

[blackcat77]

1. The Republicans *will* use it against us.

That's just a fact. That doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do, just like at one time civil rights was the right thing, but one which many less-than-principled politicians voted against for strictly political purposes.

The way I see it, this will be a good test of who's really for the people and who's just in it to get re-elected.

But again, it will be used against us, so don't act shocked when they do...

[hlthe2b]

2. I am sympathetic.... I only ask that you keep in mind...

that over 50% of the US population consists of women and, whether straight or gay, we have never had equal rights-- given the failure to pass the ERA. Sure the courts and some progressive laws have helped, but there is no way in the world you can say that there is gender equity in this country. So, while I WILL be there to support gay rights, civil rights, religious rights, and every other area for which there may be continuing discrimination, please remember that there are many many women like myself, who have been told to "be patient" for more than 30 years. I see the stakes in this next election to be bigger than ALL of us. Clearly, the RW- Fundie driven Repubs will continue to dismantle the rights of ALL of us. So, yes, I CAN and WILL be patient a bit longer in order to do what is needed to get them the hell out of office. I hope that if necessary, you can as well.

[tobius]

6. understand your frustration that the E.R.A. hasn't gotten more support

, but I don't think it is analogous.

If Kerry is the nominee I would think it is a perfect reflection of some who seem to think we should "read between the lines" when we are asked to vote because the values and causes we believe in are not popular with the general public so we have to try and get them passed or enacted "under the radar ".

[hlthe2b]

12. How is the lack of equal rights for women, any less of an urgent problem

than is the lack of marriage rights for gays and lesbians? While I DO support the latter, I can't help but be appalled that this seems to be what you are saying. Women have the "Xian" right trying to control their bodies, they still make far less on average than equally trained males, they can not walk into the room and be on equal footing, as essentially can ANY male. Society continues to place maximum value on women's looks and minimal value on their intelligence and assertiveness. This inequality is pervasive throughout life and not simply an impact on any one area of life for straight or gay women in this country.

Equal rights for all needs to be the goal. The constitution and bill of rights grants these rights to all MEN. Sadly, I think many Americans (and even many DUers) fail to realize this.

[tobius]

17. effort is commendable, but I do support equality for Women and believe

you are just trying a novel method of distracting from the issue at hand by claiming to be appalled at the idea that because I stand for principle on gay marriage, that somehow equates to misogyny.

Not sure how to codify into law fixing peoples' biases for and/or against an individuals looks or perceived attractiveness (male or female). If it's possible I'll be there to support it.

[hlthe2b]

22. The issue is COMPREHENSIVE equal rights....

That should be what we all fight for TOGETHER. Not just Gays and Lesbians fighting for Gay/Lesbian rights or women fighting for women's rights. We need to be aware of the related issues and areas of inequality. And, we won't achieve that by accusing others who are trying to suppport our efforts of "trying to distract from the issue at hand" when reminded of the need to work together for a comprehensive cause.


You have support. I fear some assume the worst from their fellow DUers. That attitude if not checked will surely drive a wedge between us at a time when we really need to stand together.

[tobius]

23. being neither gay nor lesbian I don't fit your assumption that

people are fighting for only their own issues, didn't really want to go here but in your post (#2) you said you have waited 30 yrs for your rights, in (#6) you tried to be specific about what you have been waiting for; but other than a law addressing attractiveness I am unsure what you are getting at. no candidqate ,poll, party survey, prominent civl rights org,that I know of is running/showing with ERA as a priority.


again I am for ERA but to hold that out as an issue with which to hold back a right to be married which the equal protection clause so clearly is not applied because of fear and closed minded, mean spirited people on the right and the left, does appear as a "red herring"

[hlthe2b]

25. Diminishing issues of others ....

You seem intent on ignoring the the serious problems that women continue to face in terms of their lack of equality and seize on something never implied (that I had suggested some kind of "law to address attractiveness!") It seems as though you demean the continuing inequalities women face. I mention unequal pay, lack of equity in hiring and in many fields for advancement, the threats against our reproductive rights-- yet you seem fixated on a comment made about the superficiality women face as a result of continuing inequality (e.g., value judgements based on appearance rather than intelligence, education, accomplishments). Perhaps if you had the Religious Reich trying to determine what happens to your body, you'd agree that there are serious issues there. To your comment that you know of no Equal rights issue for women being advanced by any group or under threat by any group, perhaps you forget that abortion rights, the right to privacy in reproductive issues (without AssKKKRoft's minions trying to subpoena your records), the right to receive reproductive counseling-- all of these are under immediate threat by the RW. Not an issue of equal rights, you say? Well, I would strongly disagree. I'd challenge you to give me an example where any group can assert itself over a male's reproductive privacy and rights or interfere with the legal and standard health care delivered by that man's physican.

While as you say, I am not gay nor lesbian,I do see the strength in making the fight for gay marital rights a fight for comprehensive equality. While abolition of slavery, civil rights, and gay rights all had to be addressed in changing historical periods outside those experienced by our country's founders, I firmly believe that our founding fathers would have wanted us to address them.

Let me just underscore my point, since I feel you have missed it in past posts. I'm not suggesting Gays and Lesbians postone issues on gay marriage nor fail to address it directly. What I am suggesting is that they go at it as a Equal Rights Issue. That all men and women are created equal, regardless of race, gender, religion, or any other issue and that they can not be denied the right to marriage for that reason.

I suspect we can at least agree on a wish for a better future for all.

[buck4freedom]

14. I'm sorry...

come back and talk to me when you aren't allowed to visit your husband when he's sick. Come back and talk to me when you're told that you have to pay an extra tax on the home you built with your partner because you're "inheriting" it or being given it as a "gift." Come back and talk to me when you're not allowed to get the same income tax breaks as hetero couples while contributing just as much to the community at large. Come talk to me when someone won't allow you to raise your children because of who you are. Come back and talk to me when you're told you can't be trusted to teach children or even be around them in a school setting because it is assumed you're a pedophile. Come back and talk to me when the public school system refers to your "lifestyle" as a perversion and "risky" during sex education classes where, by law, they are not allowed to say anything which can be construed as positive about the "homosexual lifestyle choice."

With that said... I'll fight right alongside you right now for the ERA and ANY legislation which grants equal rights to all Americans.

I do object to being "guilted" about basic Civil Rights by being told that you're suffering in silence on our behalf.

I don't really understand why we can't do all of the above. Can you explain it? Why can't Marriage Rights go hand in hand at the same time with ERA? Why are you saying you have to wait because of us?

[hlthe2b]

15. Perhaps you should not lash out at those who are supporting you.

And, I DO. I believe in equality for ALL.

Please come back and talk to me when you do.

[buck4freedom]

16. Re read my post...

I just get tired of people whining that they're having to give up something for us.

[hlthe2b]

19. Allow me to respond to your edited post....

I don't understand your comment about being "guilted" about basic Civil Rights by being told that (whoever) is suffereing in silence on "our" behalf. Who said that? I certainly did not so I'll leave that comment for the moment.

My point (as well as several other posters on this thread) is that we SHOULD be addressing equal rights as a comprehensive issue. The issue must be Equal Rights for all. I've posted this in my previous threads, but perhaps you misunderstood?

However, I think many of us are dismayed that certain individuals and groups have historically fought for their own issues at the exclusion of the bigger picture-- the need to address related issues for others. As an example, I hope that if we all are successful in improving equality for women, for African-Americans and other minorities, for gays and lesbians-- that we would all be there together to fight for the rights of Arab-Americans, should the Asskkkroft era continue to single them out.

[Woodstock]

29. Good points, hlthe2b

I'm on the verge of just staying away from DU because I feel like I'm being bullied on the issue of gay marriage. I feel like I'm not free to say I'm in favor of just civil unions until after the elections without extreme censure. There is just too much at stake for the WORLD if Bush gets another 4 years, and as long as civil unions are equal in every way to marriage, and it's just the WORD that is different, and that gives us enough votes to remove Bush and not inflame this issue and give Bush a wedge and weapon of mass distraction - then I see this as the best solution. As a woman, trust me, there's a LOT to be desired about my situation in this country, too. But I feel that I'll be in a much better position to achieve my goals AFTER a Democrat is in office. If Bush gets another 4 years, hell, we might not even have a COUNTRY left, much less what I want for women.

Actually, my ultimate solution would be to convert ALL marriages to civil unions - since everyone is saying marriage is a religious issue, then why is the state involved in it in the first place? Make civil unions the only thing that the government gets involved with, and let anyone get them with anyone (as long as they are consenting and above 18 and not related, or whatever restrictions are agreed upon.) Then the churches can decide to marry whoever they want.

[buck4freedom]

30. Now... on that...

we can agree!

"Actually, my ultimate solution would be to convert ALL marriages to civil unions - since everyone is saying marriage is a religious issue, then why is the state involved in it in the first place? Make civil unions the only thing that the government gets involved with, and let anyone get them with anyone (as long as they are consenting and above 18 and not related, or whatever restrictions are agreed upon.) Then the churches can decide to marry whoever they want."

No "marriage" for anyone works just as well as marriage for everyone! See.. it's equal.

[Woodstock]

32. This is the most logical solution

I think any reasonable society would ultimately embrace it.

It achieves:

separation of church and state

+

equal rights

[adamblast]

34. Sorry you feel bullied...

...but you can't expect people to swallow 2nd-class citizenship for the sake of political expediency.

I want a Democrat in office as much as you do. But a Democrat who openly opposes my right to marry *deserves* my censure, not my support.

If gay rights helps the Democrats to *lose* this election, it will be because they got inadequate support from people like you... Not because they had the nerve to ask for equality at a time you deemed inconvenient.

[emanymton]

3. Equal Rights, Equal Rights, Equal Rights

How many times must it be said? Equal Rights is a winner's position. Equla Rights defeated slavery. Equal Rights defeated separate but equal. Equal Rights defeated subjugation of women's rights.

It is about equal rights.

Say after me, "Equal Rights."

Democrats win!

Bush Lied, People Died.

[corporatewhore]

4. EQUAL RIGHTS ARE NOT A WEDGE ISSUE THE'RE A STAND YOUR GROUND ISSUE

[Wonco_the_Sane]

5. It is about equality

It's so simple to me. Just have any RWer explain how two gay/lesbian couples getting married, infringes in ANY way, the rights of a straight person. HOW? This is a fundamental issue.

[Solly Mack]

7. Don't you sometimes feel like just asking people

to give you a date when it will be beneficial for them to address equal rights?


"Just wait"..."it'll happen"..."for the good of the whole" "things will change when (insert whatever) happens"...and other such statements are often repeated...and they are always repeated because you wait and nothing happens...you're patient and nothing changes...(there's always next time, doncha know)

...and you keep waiting and waiting and waiting...but hey..change takes time and all that. Just because people can define the concept of equal rights doesn't mean they can live it.....or allow it....or accept that waiting for what's right kills the spirit because it gnaws at the soul. There's no better time to do what's right than now.

............and there never will be.

I understand your frustration. Keeping your eyes on the prize makes for fine rhetoric...but,frankly, I'm getting eye strain I've been gazing so long..........

My favorite is when people tell me that "just wait until we win-cause it will be different"...then it never is...first they tell you " Not now... we have to gain the office"...then once you've voted for them it's " Not now..we have to keep the office"....but hey, keep supporting me cause I'm still better than that other person...

but even when that's true, it still doesn't help if people are once again cheated out of their rights...

One could become cynical if one weren't already jaded...

I don't know what to tell you because I know you are just expressing a deep frustration with the "system".....I'm expressing my disgust with it, too.

I don't think some people know just what they are asking when they ask others to wait to be treated like humans. This isn't to say that those asking are out to grab your vote and then discard you....mainly, those asking are betting on hope...the hope that things will change, change for the better, and change soon.

At least, I hope they are...

[JasonDeter]

8. The republicans are very very crafty. They don't pick abortion

They pick homosexual marriage because abortion is (because of ahhhnold) a bipartisan issue. Homosexual marriage on the otherhand is the one issue they could pick that would fire up the republican base and fire up the homosexual community. Only one of two things will happen short term:
1. The homosexual community will cram this down America's collective throat, not backing down even if it costs the Democrats the WH.
2. This will go all the way to the Surpreme Ct. dominating the general election, making this one extremely boring general election dominated by something that belongs in the bedroom, not in the public arena.

The republicans will win on this issue in the long run, controlling both houses of congress because of it for a decade or more, making the Presidency a figurehead when Democrats control it if they ever do.

[corporatewhore]

9. was MLKjr. Crammin equalrights forafricanamreicans down americans throats

SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE !!!!! Gay rights = civil rights

[JasonDeter]

20. Repeating the same thing over and over does not make it legitimate.

To a majority of American's its a moral issue period. You can disagree, you may win but that doens't mean its right. And you can do the standard and blame Christianity but those who oppose homosexual marriage are not simply Christians but many many non religious do too. We'll see how it turns out because the homosexual community will not let this go away even if it costs us the WH.

[Dookus]

13. excuse me?

The "homosexual community" isn't cramming ANYTHING. It's the republicans who are raising this issue.

Also, there is no issue that will go before the Supreme Court before November.

Also, do you realize that 38% of Americans support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and 58% oppose it?

Electorally, this is a losing issue for republicans. They won't push it too hard other than to shore up their base a little.

[buck4freedom]

18. Twisted logic

You're a sad little sucker aren't you?

[JasonDeter]

21. Wow, are you trying to draw me into a dumbed down debate?

[David__77]

28. Your fundamental mistake is based on an unfair characterization.

The right is using the same language of anti-Semitism to ostracize lesbian and gay people--we're "rich," have "undue influence" in government and media, and are characterized as a homogeneous bloc. When you talk about the "gay community not letting this go," you're resting on a false assumption that "they"--"the gays," started this. That's not true. Reactionaries started this centuries ago when they were killing homosexuals and banning "sodomy." That's the legacy of this debate. Luckily, progressive-minded people will stand for justice.

There's no "letting this go." The court in MA has ruled and same-sex marriage WILL occur regardless of any legal or legislative actions. The choice is: amend the constitution of the US or not? I say no, as do most Democratic officeholders. We will bloc it with 146 house members or 34 senators, at a minimum. There will be same sex marriage, and people will deal with it and will finally accept it. Young people support same-sex marriage rights. Through attrition, Democrats will win. If the GOP wants to be the "anti-gay party" they will pay in the longer-run.

Some things are more important than immediate political victory. This is a fundamental issue of justice. I know I stand against all discrimination: anti-Semitism, racism, sexism and anti-gay bigotry.

[PVnRT]

35. If it were just a "bedroom" issue

you would have a point.

It's not, though, it's about being able to have the same rights as a straight couple. What natural right do heterosexuals have to get married and get those rights, anyway? Why do they deserve that special right?

[rucky]

10. Fuck the GOP. This is a historic day in SF!

I didn't expect this of Gavin Newsom - he's become an instant legend.

wedge issue? DEAL with it.

[LeftCoast]

11. Yeah, I gotta give Newsome credit!

I didn't vote for him. I was a Gonzalez supporter, but Newsome's earned some points from me for this.

[neoteric lefty]

24. to any who say its not a winning issue

Tell them that it is not about what is popular or what the people want. It is about what is right. Civil Rights wasn't a popular notion back in the 60s but we know now that it was the right thing to do. Discrimination of any group based based on a non controllable distinction of that group (whether it be skin color, religion, sexual orientation, etc.) is 100% wrong! I had a family member tell me that it will degrade the sanctity of marriage. I told him "what sanctity?" Marriage began as a property distribution contract and was only recently considered as emotional institution. Any resemblance of sanctity went out the window when Britney got married and annulled in 55 hours.

People say we shouldn't bring this issue up in the upcoming election because it isn't a winner. Those are the same people who said equality and diversity aren't the popular things to do 40 years ago. This issue should be in the light for all to decide upon. Conservatives are saying that the Dems shouldn't bring up this issue. Thoose people are scared b/c they know that progress will go opposite of their viewpoints.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[terrya]

27. Gay marriage is going to happen, people.

You'd better get on board on this. It's inevitable. We might as well fight for it now. We can frame this debate. We CAN. Come on, now. Anyone with a 3 digit IQ should realize that two gay men or two lesbian women marrying will NOT demean marriage. There are NO...zero, zip, zilch, nada...NO reason to deny us legal recognition of marriage. None.

The opposition to gay marriage boils down to one thing: hate. There are, sad to say, people in this country who hate homosexuals and homosexuality. They can't stand the fact that gay marriages would be elevated to the same status as heterosexual ones. That's it.

Well, put them on the defensive. Do they want hate and divisiveness in this country? Do they want to discriminate?

This won't be easy...as Sandpiper said it so well. But it's the right thing to do. It's about honoring love and committment. And who can be against that?

Terry

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[guajira]

33. Gay Couples Should be Allowed to marry

Who does it hurt if they do??

It does not legalize polygamy, it does not legalize incest, or any other type of "abnormal" behavior.

It's time gay couples are treated like the normal people they are!!