BTW, I love the "Fight Club" reference. That's the most irreverent, anti-establishment, anti-feminist movie I've EVER seen.
Anyway, you're not really listening to what I'm saying. Gay folk still have the right to marry someone of the other sex. In fact, two gay folk can marry each other. A lesbian and a gay man.
The parallels to black civil rights simply do NOT apply. The only REMOTE parallel I've seen is the issue of inter-racial marriage. But at the same time, I could make use the gay marriage argument to support polygamy.
Society has defined what marriage is. They will CONTINUE to define what marriage is. It is NOT a civil rights issue.
Right or wrong, if the whole of society decides to amend their constitutions AGAINST homosexual marriage, it couldn't possibly be considered a civil right. Perhaps it could be considered a NATURAL right, but not a civil right.
The actions that gay and lesbian communities are engaging in right now will give ammo to fundamentalists in the view of moderates. I shit you not. They are turning otherwise sympathetic people AGAINST the gay and lesbian community.
The Republicans may have built the wedge ... but gay activists are pounding it home.
No amount of arguing will change middle America's mind on this. No logical construct is even relevant. A vast majority of Americans don't want to recognize gay relationships as marriage ... PERIOD. All your arguments and logical constructs to the contrary about this being a "civil right" will only serve to make you appear loony. Basically, Americans
DON'T CARE if you think it's right or wrong. They simply don't want it.
I get very frustrated because I attempt to explain this position and people seem to take me as some kind of homopobe. It is this unwillingness to accept a compromise that provides progress "civil unions" that leads to the label of extremist. I'm not trying to hurt gays and lesbians, I'm trying to HELP them.
I'm trying to help them see WHY their arguments fall on completely deaf ears. It's not due to homophobia. It's due to a fundamental belief that same sex couples DO NOT make a marriage as people have known it their entire lives. Many would accept the notion of a NEW institution that would define such a relationships and give it similar rights as marriage. But they simply DON'T WANT to call such relationships marriage.
These folks are the VAST MAJORITY. If you force a domino effect of court rulings (as what is currently happening) that FORCE that institution, you WILL see a NATIONAL constitutional amendment that SPECIFICALLY denies gay marriage. It WILL pass easily in such a climate. Democrats WILL NOT help you in that event.
This will place the realization of gay marriage FARTHER away. In the absence of such amendments, you MAY have been able to sneak out a state specific marriage that is recognized as a civil union in less liberal states. If a constitutional amendment is passed, that WILL NOT be an option.
BTW, a Democratic president CANNOT by statute HELP in preventing such an amendment. He simply has NO role in the amendment process that requires approval of two thirds of both houses of congress and two thirds of states. Given the current makeup of Washington, such an amendment could easily be passed.
Even if Washington balks, 2/3 of the states could force the process on Congress and FORCE democratic legislators to choose between their seat and that amendment.
Here is the key issue. Do progressives COMPROMISE ALL of their agenda because gays and lesbian activists are unwilling to accept the civil union compromise. I tell you that I personally am not. It's the same pig-headed refusal to listen to other people's perspectives that characterizes the far right. It's the same pig-headed refusal to accept progress short of total victory that plunged Palestine back into chaos after the promise of peace.
You can only demand EVERYTHING when you are in a position of power and strength. Right now, Democrats control ZERO bodies at the national level. Their lot at the state level is EVEN LESS. WHY THE FUCK WOULD THEY RISK FURTHER MARGINALIZATION BECAUSE GAYS REFUSE TO ACCEPT A COMPROMISE THAT
HELPS THEM?????????
So if these groups want that stupid amendment, just keeping raiding court houses and DEMANDING marriage licenses. Keep suing and getting rulings that favor gay marriage. The result will be swift and sure and will END ANY near term hope of gay marriage AND also stall efforts for civil unions in most states.
Finally, a list of more than 33 states that would constitutionally ban gay marriage in a heartbeat if forced:
1) Florida
2) South Carolina
3) North Carolina
4) Alabama
5) Georgia
6) Tennessee
7) Kentucky
8) Indiana
9) Ohio
10) Pennsylvania
11) Mississippi
12) Texas
13) Arizona
14) Colorado
15) North Dakota
16) South Dakota
17) Wyoming
18) Missouri
19) Utah
20) Michigan
21) Vermont
22) Connecticut
23) New Hampshire
24) Arkansas
25) Oklahoma
26) Alaska
27) Kansas
28) Louisiana
29) Idaho
30) West Virginia
31) Maine
32) Hawaii
33) Nebraska
34) Nevada
35) Iowa
Probables:
1) New Jersey
2) New Mexico
3) Delaware
4) Illinois
For research:
http://www.gay-civil-unions.com/HTML/State_By_State/State_by_State.htmSay what you will. I believe that gays are seriously harming their cause ESPECIALLY in such a high profile election year. They should not be surprised when other progressives eventually abandon them on these issues in the face of HOWLS from their constituents.