"Hate the sin, love the sinner" is not in The Bible

[Paragon]

Just in case any lurking FReepers need some additional "divine inspiration" to justify hatred of GLBT people... :eyes:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/answ-man/sho-sunday-ebert25.html

Q. Regarding your comment in the review of "Monster," the phrase "hate the sin and love the sinner" is not actually found in the Bible. Though it's a laudable notion, this phrase joins a company of popular sentiments often wrongly attributed to the Good Book (see also "cleanliness is next to godliness" and "God helps those who help themselves").

Mark A. Plunkett, Bedford, Ind.

A. But I didn't say it was in the Bible. I simply said "we are told." I learn from Jim Emerson of Seattle: "The sentiment is usually attributed to St. Augustine, who said, 'Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum,' or 'With love for mankind and hatred of sins.' It is often loosely translated as: 'Love the sinner and hate the sin,' a saying often incorrectly attributed to Jesus."

[hang a left]

1. How about

Judge not lest ye shall not be judged.

[xchrom]

2. amen

pass the mashed potato's

[JasonDeter]

3. Christians know that that phrase is not in the Bible

And I wonder why the homosexual community keeps acting like its only Christians who are opposed to making the homosexual lifestyle normal?
Christians are the most outspoken but not the only ones who oppose what the homosexual community is trying to do.

[Spentastic]

4. Are the reasons of the other groups

As dumb as those of the Christians?

My Sky fairy doesn't like it.

[JasonDeter]

5. Its a moral issue across the board.

Morals can be dumb I guess, if they are contrary to what you want deemed acceptable, when in the past it has been unacceptable.

[Spentastic]

6. What? Like marrying blacks people if you're white?

Fuck their stupid prejudices I say. Especially when it's government business.

Does gay marriage hurt anyone? Only peoples bigotry by the look of it.

[JasonDeter]

7. Thats like comparing apples and oranges.

Homosexuals can go into any resturant, drink out of any drinking fountain, go to any school, go into any restroom they choose, move into any neighborhood, if qualified apply for any job they want to try for and get it, walk through any lilly white neighborhood without fear of getting hung, be tried for a crime and not have to worry about being found guilty simply because they are gay ect ect ect. To compare the two is to diminish the horrible crime perpetrated upon the Black community in the past AND EVEN TODAY!!! MY GAWD! ITS OUTRAGEOUS TO EVEN COMPARE THE TWO!

[Spentastic]

9. As we say here

I believe you have got your facts wrong.

Homosexuals run the gauntlet of fundie hate in their everyday lives. They are discrimiated against and from time to time you'll find them strung up on fences as a lesson to others. They are accused of paedophilia with no reason. They are considered disease ridden hedonists who deserve to die of AIDS. Employers do discriminate against them and their personal safety is often an issue.

Yes the crimes perpertrated on Blacks were truly horrible but it would appear that the struggle for recognition of gays is has several common components.

You just have your eyes shut.

[Solomon]

10. It's no use Jason. I got flamed something awful for trying to make the

same distinction.

[Spentastic]

11. What distinction?

That Blacks are more hard done by than Gays?

Or that they are incomparable?

Or that Gays are gays and blacks are blacks?

What is your and Jason's point exactly?

All I see is denial / dismissal of discrimination against gays.

Or that gays should just get over it because they are not discriminated against?

[polmaven]

24. Because it that analogy

which is comparing apples and oranges, for several reasons.

First, the discriminatory behavior toward African Americans based on their skin color is NOT LEGAL.

Second, the debate is over one thing, and one thing alone. Does discrimination against a group of people belong in the Constitution?

The only comparisons to be made, since this is not really about the so called homosexual "lifestyle", whatever that is, but it is about their Constitutional rights to marry. We can compare only the rights of another minority group to marry.

In 1967, when the discriminatory laws banning inter-racial marriage were overturned, the decision was very unpopular. It is unlikely the measure would have passed if put to a popular vote. Many of the same arguments were made then that are made now. "It just isn't natural" "It is against God's law" "What will be next, bestiality? bigamy?" "Oh, my! Oh, my! The very sanctity of marriage has been torn apart!"

[lcooksey]

25. Discrimination

No one said that discrimination against blacks is the same as discrimination against gays. Of course it's not. But just because we don't have it as bad, are we not allowed to fight to make our lives better?

There are people using the Bible today to say there should be no same-sex marriage or civil union. What other civil rights issues have been fought using the Bible?

- Inter-racial marriage
- Desegregation
- Freedom to vote (both for African Americans and women)
- Freedom from slavery
- The right for married women to own property
- etc., etc.

I would hope that those who have experienced any sort of discrimination would oppose all discrimination.

[LeahMira]

19. Same thing, Jason.

Homosexuals can go into any resturant, drink out of any drinking fountain, go to any school, go into any restroom they choose, move into any neighborhood, if qualified apply for any job they want to try for and get it, walk through any lilly white neighborhood without fear of getting hung, be tried for a crime and not have to worry about being found guilty simply because they are gay...

That is probably true most of the time, but it's true because people who are black can be immediately identified by sight.

No one can tell just by looking who is or is not homosexual. Homosexual people do not have a spot on the tip of their noses that identifies them. You might have your own personal suspicions, but you know as well as I do that there have been, for instance, some leading men in film who were homosexual and no one knew that until after they died.

I have no doubt at all that if people who are homosexual did have a spot on the tip of their noses, they too would be prevented from going into certain restaurants, drinking at certain water fountains, moving into certain neighborhoods, and all the rest of the abuses you cite that black Americans have been subjected to over the sorry course of American history.

[JasonDeter]

26. I'm going to the bank today to get a loan

I have no equity, no savings, nothing. You see I'm poor. Now your saying if the bank turns me down for a loan they're being prejudiced against the poor? Is that analogy pretty close?

[DrWeird]

27. it's outrageous not to compare the two.

"Homosexuals can go into any resturant, drink out of any drinking fountain, go to any school, go into any restroom they choose, move into any neighborhood, if qualified apply for any job they want to try for and get it, walk through any lilly white neighborhood without fear of getting hung".

So can black people. In fact for black people civil rights have been around for decades. It's still legal to deny employment for homosexuals, housing rights, etc.

And homosexuals get lynched too. And the perpretators get off by claiming, "but he was hitting on me."

Seems to me if anybody's "diminshing" any crimes, it's you who is diminishing crimes against homosexuals.

Just about the same number of people who disapprove of gay marriages still disapprove of interracial marriage. Which until 1967 was outlawed, and they used Biblical references to justify their bigotry then also.

[JasonDeter]

28. Yes but they used obvious lame Biblical references!

But the Bible is quite clear in the Old Testament and New Testament regard the homosexual lifestyle. The racists used obvious lame references in the Old Testament to disparage interracial marriage but none can be found in the New Testament. A huge difference. The Old Testament and the New Testament agree on homosexual behavior. Now you may not agree with it and that is your right in America but the majority will speak on this one because it is not a civil issue but a moral one.

[cboy4]

8. Are you the spokesperson for

Christians? There are plenty of Christians who think that phrase IS in the bible.

You are correct that Christians (some, not all) are the most outspoken...but people like Robertson and Falwell are some of the most vicious and hateful human beings on earth.

And, FYI, gay people are normal...pass it on! :bounce:

[sendero]

14. You know what???

>>>...but people like Robertson and Falwell are some of the most vicious and hateful human beings on earth.

And I can't remember the last time I heard a national Christian leader speak out against them. I'm sure they do from time to time.

*I deleted the rest of what I had to say, it was too inflammatory.*

[DarkPhenyx]

12. Christians are the only ones telling them...

...that they are going to hell. They are also the best funded group and the one that it least vulnerable to attack. They are also the ones most completely devoid of logic in their arguments, so trying to use logic to change their position is useless.

[LeahMira]

18. You would be swimming upstream...

And I wonder why the homosexual community keeps acting like its only Christians who are opposed to making the homosexual lifestyle normal?

Hate to tell you, but the homosexual "lifestyle" has been normal for centuries. There are written records of homosexuals living happily in ancient Greece, the Europeans found American Indian homosexuals on this continent when they arrived, and there's no reason to believe that there were no homosexuals before the records started being kept.

The only fairly recent phenomenon is the deliberate efforts at marginalizing that are directed at these homosexual folks. Christians and any others with them who oppose what homosexuals do are swimming upstream in the current of life. Their choice, I suppose, but it is a losing effort. People who are homosexual are here to stay.

[Malva Zebrina]

13. Neither is "rapture"

that is a made up word that many people think is in the bible also.

[thinkingwoman]

15. Bedford, Ind.

Is deep in Republican territory in south central Indiana. Although only about 20 minutes south of Bloomington, it is a different world.

Republicans RULE county government and Mel Gibson's Passion movie will be screened there when it opens next Wednesday. A large sign on a hill clearly visible from the main highway reads "Jesus is Lord over Bedford."

Just goes to show you...thinking people are everywhere and we must speak up, loudly and often.

[lapislzi]

16. So...if it's not in the Bible, we shouldn't do it?

(No offense intended to Paragon, who I believe is being ironic here)

"It's not in the Bible" is an insupportable argument. It also irks me no end when people try to cherry-pick which parts of the Bible they decide are applicable to them, their situation, or the point they are trying to make.

If Christians purport to love Jesus so much, they should try using him as a role model. I'm no Bible scholar, but I think he once said something about loving one's neighbor, and I don't remember that there were any conditions attached to that.

[YNGW]

17. "Hate the sin, love the sinner"

The exact phrase is not in the Bible. But it does say to hate sin and to love and pray for your enemies. The phrase is basically a summation of those two teachings.

[LeahMira]

20. One thing that is there...

... is the admonition about that which is hurtful to you, do not do to others.

If Christians are upset at the way others behave towards them, they might consider not behaving in the same sort of way towards people who are homosexual.

[ms_splash]

21. "We are told" and now we are telling you

Now shut up (but we looooooove you*).

*although not in a gay way

[veganwitch]

22. and it was Augustine who came up with the idea of original sin

being a sexually transmitted disease.

woohoo!

i lurve that guy! /sarcasm

[lapislzi]

23. Augustine the misogynist

gotta love the guy.

Between him and Paul, they managed, what, 2000 years of repression of women? That's no small accomplishment!