WHo is more perverted the Pedophiles or the people trying to catch them?

[Must_B_Free]

followed this link from drudge to Perverted-justice.com.

First off, not to minimize the danger of pedophiles, this is a horrible recurring reseeding problem. I have no experiences with it, fortunately. But I have to say I was dismayed at the culture that is promoted around catching pedophiles.

I think probably most pedophiles are former victims who, instead of getting help, seem to be re-victimized. Here is an excerpt from a proud "catcher":

Over the past couple years of cruising Portland Chat for pedophiles, I've been called a freak, a pervert, a cop, and a million other things. I've been threatened, cussed out, and stalked. But you know what? This is the most fun I've ever had in my life. There's nothing finer than the feeling I get when some bastard who thought he was about to "score big" with a ten-year old gets the surprise of his life- my face on his monitor, my voice on his phone, and, in the figurative sense at least, my shit in his mouth.
http://www.perverted-justice.com/index.php?profile=Tattooed%20Indian%20Guy

"My shit in his mouth???!?" Clearly, the catcher is experiencing some sort of "perverted thrill" himself.

Glad that the pedophiles are being caught and perhaps getting help (if they can be helped), but isn't there are more tactful way to do this? It seems to be breeding it own dangerous counter reaction.

I also saw an episode of cops this week were all of the "criminals" were entrapped in a police sting ($15 hand job offer from an undercover cop). All of the perps were just regular good old southern boys. One had a little difficulty getting his seatbelt off so a team of musclebound cops dragged him from the car and mashed his face in the pavement to make it bleed.

I am all for justice and safety, but breeding a facist climate is not the way to go about it. These people are getting sick pornographic thrill from being able to victimize others with impunity.

[molly]

1. Do you have children?

[Must_B_Free]

2. yes, I do

Does that mean I should support the creation of a climate of facism?

[molly]

31. Climate of facism?

I do not consider sexual predatators victims. I do not consider heroin addicts victims. I do not consider alcoholics victims.

If you feel like an enabler - invite one of these "victims" to live with you for a month.

[frankly_fedup2]

49. I'm a mother of a now 25-year-old son . . .

When he was 21, he had sex with an underage girl of 16. Now my son is called a pedophile. He is a convicted felon for the rest of his life for doing something that was wrong; however, in the state of Virginia, where we live, if a girl is 14 years of age and is pregnant, she can marry the man and no charges are filed. Also, he can be 30-40-50 years old. Doesn't matter.

This mistake my son made has changed his life forever. He is a convicted felon, and he has lost all of his civil liberties.

You know you can go to the websites and view the pedophiles in your area? Well, my son is on there and the way the charges are worded, he sounds like the most perverted human being alive.

My son was charged with "cardinal knowledge with a child of the ages of 13-16." You don't know if the girl just turned 13 or if she was almost 17. You do not know that it was consensual sex as it does not say that. You do know that it is against the law; however, they have pushed this to the extreme.

The act was consensual and thank God the girl admitted that. My son and she met at the girl's church and the girl's mother allowed her daughter to hang out with my son. Of course, during the court proceedings, the mother told me she was not aware my son was over 18. I told her I was not aware her daughter was under 18.

Problem with this is yes, there are some very sick people out there. Yes, these people need help. However, my son is now supposedly a part of that group now. However, he does not go on line and try to coerce small young girls for sex.

Does it seem fair that he should be considered the same sicko perverts that this woman catches on line? I don't think so, but I am his mother, of course.

He is still having to have plezmometors (sp) attached to his penis and shown sickening pictures of small children in sexual positions from babies to adults, boys and girls. These tests are worse than a lie detector test in accuracy; however, they can be used in court. If your penis moves, uh ohh . . . what was the picture you were looking at? AND that must mean you are excited by that picture. He still has to take a lie detector test a week after to be sure he told the truth on that test. All of this costs around $300.00 every time they do this, which is part of his probation. Then there is the weekly class he has to go to ($40 a week). They say my son is in denial about his pedophilia. They tell him that I, his father, or his grandparents, or someone in the family must have done something to him to make him want to have sex with a younger girl. He tells them no, she was the only girl he had had sex with that was under the age of 18. He was not allowed to watch cable TV when he was younger, he wasn't allowed to look at pornographic magazines and as far as he knew, there were none in the home, nor were there any pornographic tapes. He was not a latch-key kid. He has told them he grew up going to school, trying to make good grades, dated and went to all the dances, participated in clubs, started college, mom and dad always working, everybody ate dinner together, everybody went to church. Pretty normal stuff. However, they say he is blocking something. Some horror in his past that made him want to have sex with this "child" of 16. They have even told him not to go into the toy department of any store because it could bring up feelings he cannot control. What a load of crap. He goes and gets his son a toy whenever he feels and shockingly, he doesn't get any sexual urges toward the small children there looking around him.

Sorry. I am just so frustrated with this. His lawyer (we paid for one rather than court appointed) plus the fines and all the classes have cost us and him way over $8000.00. He is married now and he and my daughter in law had a little boy last May. Well, the counselors freaked out and said he was not to have contact with his own child that he helped to deliver. The child was born with cleft palate and cleft lip and we had to take him to a larger hospital because he was unable to eat except with a tube. The counselors said if he went with his child and wife, he would be breaking his probation and she would contact his parole officer. I called the lawyer and needless to say, he went with his wife and son. My daughter and law can no longer work, because my grandson still needs more surgeries, and if she goes back to work, she will lose the Medicaid on my grandson. They are trying to live off my son's living . . . barely. Where my son works the insurance is so high, it's almost like it isn't even a group plan.

We then had to go to court again so my son could live in the same house with his own son and wife. Family and friends had to go and testify on my son's behalf.

This has gone on for 3 years. The money, the aggravation, the lawyers, the legal system, the jail system, the lies, the injustice, the sentencing guidelines, and just the total disrespect the people who work for the justice system treat you. I haven't done anything, my father hadn't done anything; however, we were talked down to like we were white trash. My dad is a WWII Veteran. I told this one cop that my father deserved more respect than the short, smart-ass-ed remarks he was making regarding his questioning. At this point, I could care less if they take me to jail.

Our family has never been involved in the court systems . . . never. Now, after seeing what goes on, I have no respect whatsoever for our system and how it works.

Justice is not blind . . . she has her hand out!

Now when I go to those websites and look at the local pedophiles and what the charges are, I take a second look. They are no longer, in my mind, automatically the perverts that they are said to be on the sites. I would have to know what the person did . . . not the crime they are charged with, which really can be so finely connected, the police can barely hold them for the charges.

Now that is my experience. However, I know people go on those sites and see my son and think . . . "What a Pervert."

[Lars39]

51. "Justice has her hand out..."

How long is your son going to be on parole? Are they going to hound him until the cash cow runs dry? :shrug:

[frankly_fedup2]

59. He was put on 4 years probation . . .

However, he was through 1-1/2 years of his "classes" when his son was born. The counselors knew the baby was coming. However, the date of birth, and due to the birth defect, they immediately dropped him and said he was breaking his rules of probation and that he was not to have contact with any child . . . not even his own. Well after they took my grandson to have surgery so he could at least eat without a tube, we then had to go to court again to get the judge's OK that he could still live in the same house as his wife and son. The counselors got up there and stated that this type of therapy is very different from other types of therapy and is very precise. Also, they said since my son had had contact with a child, the counseling would have to start over because everything they had done to help my son had been undone (BS).

Anyway, he would have been done with this stuff this May. Now it may go on until next May or up until he is off probation.

Your right about the money. My son has been very lucky that he has a family there to help him. Many young men in the same situation (and there are a lot) are sitting in jail for up to 10-20 years for what is called "statutory rape." Our lawyer said he has two other young men who did not have the "money" to pay for all the counseling so they had no choice but to put them in jail to pull their terms. One has already been in there 2 years and the other just went. Same scenarios as my son. Good kids, good families, never been in trouble. They just didn't have the ability to pay for all their attorney fees, (even if it is a court-appointed attorney, if you are found guilty, the attorney charges you $500.00. So don't ever think that the justice system gives ANYONE a free lawyer). These are, basically, good kids. My son had never been arrested before, never been in trouble, nothing. He is not into drugs, drinking, or whatever else is out there. I'm not saying he may not have tried some things, cause I don't know, and I know he is not perfect; however, he is not an animal, he is a human being, and they have treated him like the lowest form of life on this earth. Also, they have treated us, his family, not much better.

Yes, they should be punished. Yes, my son should never have had sex with that girl and should be punished. However, how much more will he have to do????

Justice has her hand out AND you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

It's been a nightmare and it still isn't over.

[Lars39]

64. His situation is totally mind-boggling.

How on earth do they equate an attraction for a 16+ yo female with parental love for a child? Unbelievable. Would it help if he moved back in with you and had supervised visits with his son? I could see them deciding to start over again on his "treatment" if it took their fancy! What a nightmare!

My sympathies and best wishes for everyone involved.

[frankly_fedup2]

68. Well, we suggested that to him . . .

. . .and he became very upset because his son was only a month old when we had to go to court. My grandson was in the process of having his first surgery on his cleft lip. He is going to have his palate closed this March 8th. Hopefully, down the road his speech will be okay and his teeth will come in right. We can only pray.

Like I was saying, he wants to live in the same home with his wife and child and take care of them. I can understand that! And this child has to be one of the happiest babies I have ever seen. (Yeah, I know I'm grandma but he really is a good baby). That baby was so wanted and is so loved and well taken care of. If I thought for one second that my son would hurt that child, I would have told the judge in court or taken the child myself.

Even the judge, when we went to court so my son can stay in the same house as his wife and child, told the counselors when they kept going on and on and on, stated that "This was not what my son was brought up on charges for, and that he felt that these counselors were just trying to cover their butt by dropping him from the classes when he has contact with his own child. He wasn't too pleased with the counselors either and the amount of money they charge; however, he said since my son was with his child, he was to continue with the counseling. Having sex with a 16-year-old girl who was not a virgin is a big difference then hunting down 10-11 year olds or younger or a little older, and raping them. This girl consensually had sex with my son. He got caught. Many, many don't. He made a mistake that has ruined the rest of his life.

One more thing. I notice a lot of people stating that someone who is a pedophile are usually molested themselves. A lot of this is true because my son tells me that almost all the men in his classes have been molested. That is why his counselors cannot understand why my son wasn't.

Also, I was molested by an uncle at the age of 3-4. He was called "slow" in the family but he knew right from wrong. Years later, talking with some of my other female cousins, found out that several of us had experienced this with my "slow" uncle. Basically, the family just tried to keep it quiet. THEN when we had all grown up enough to say "NO" there was an accussation by a local girl that he had molested her. Due to his mental retardation, he was not sent to jail that I can remember. I really don't remember what they did to him cause he was always at home with my grandmother.

With myself being molested as a young child, I never had the urge to do the same to another child. I do not understand why anyone would do something that caused harm to themselves to another child. Maybe it is because I am a female? Who knows.

I even talked to our local delegate about my son's situation; however, he said they did not interfere in the court's decision. What a joke.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Please forgive me if you find this blunt.

If I was you I'd

1) Start selling any property I had
2) If that includes house, move to small apartment
3) Plan escape
4) Leave country, along with son, daughter-in-law, grandson, and whatever other members of family may apply.

The land of your birth has decided it hates you and all your family. They won't let you have normal lives, ever. You won't be losing anything you have lost already.

Edit: I'd host you all in MY house if I had too. This story made my blood boil.

[frankly_fedup2]

71. If that wasn't so funny . . .

I would take you up on it.

You are right . . . my son is a marked man for the rest of his life. Now that he is a felon, there are certain jobs, better-paying jobs, that he could never get. He works at Wal-Mart now. And they do not allow overtime.

As far as selling, we had to use our home for bail so he could be out of jail until his hearings. We did sell a lot of things to pay for our attorney that really amazed me. Everything he said they wouldn't do to my son . . . they did. He never opened his mouth in court. We could not bring up the girl's name because she was under the age of 18. We decided to plead guilty, because if we went to trial, the fact was my son did have sex with her, and if he didn't take the stand, they would know he was hiding something. If he did take the stand, he would have to admit to having sex with her. So we plead guilty to keep him out of jail. He could have gotten up to 20 years for this.

In their process for obtaining DNA, they went to my son's job (the police did this every time they needed to talk to him, get something, or give him something . . . they always went to his job). Anyway, he had just bought a new car the Spring before this. Well, the police came to his job, told him they wanted the backseat of his car, and that he would have to come out there and watch them remove the seat. My son did this. He always did whatever they asked. However, that doesn't help anything. Plus, there was no DNA of her on my son's seat. We had to get our lawyer to contact them to get his backseat back. Finally, they said he could some pick it up, and it was broke. My son has not been able to fit it back in correctly where it stays in place. Did we complain? HELL NO! They would just find something else to do to harass him, us, or his grandparents or friends.

I have been trying to get my husband to move to Canada though. However, my husband has a great job and we have great benefits. I don't know if moving to Canada would help my son at all.

You see for the rest of his life, if he ever moves, no matter where, he has to immediately go to the local police and inform them that he has moved there because he is a "Sexual Offender." So you see, there is no escape from it anywhere. If he doesn't report this, and it is found out that he has moved, he will go to jail. Simple as that.

I hope in some small way that I have educated some of you in the way our Justice system works. Especially those of you that have sons. Let them know what could happen if they didn't stop and think for a minute in case they get in the same situation. They will ruin the rest of their lives . . . and in some ways their families too.

[Must_B_Free]

74. A modern-day, digital Scarlet Letter

[Must_B_Free]

62. Wow - that is an incredible story

I can't believe they force your son to go though this weird institutional sexual violation. How freaky and traumatic that must be - it's so "Clockwork Orange". It's almost hard to believe - some people being payed with federal dollars to harvest, store, and administer the very objects of abuse they are trying to eliminate from society. A federal collection of vile pornography that sex offernders are forced to view? Unbelievable.

The fact of your son's violation being so sort of "borderline" and arbitrary also exemplifies the point that

1. YES the system catches bad guys, BUT
2. the system ALSO bulldozes over and victimizes relatively innocent people.

Also recall the recent story of the black kid who is going to prison for a long time for consentual sex.

Getting back to the COPS episode, when I see entrapment of any form, it is scary, because you know some innocent people are going to be accidentally caught in the trap. I find it hard to believe that COPS can legally go out and offer sex then arrest people for saying they were interest in it. Who is to say a guy wouldn't have gotten closer to the act and chickened out?

And they fact they their department can profit off of it for example, by appropriating peoples vehicles, seems like spurious motivation.

Then you have the dependable casually detached people saying "fry them all" - leaving out "its all to hard for me to comprehend and think about so I'll just take the easy, safe, macho answer to the question".

I say its time for understanding and not "cut their hands off" you can either attack a problem at the roots or treat symptoms endlessly.

Yes most of these people are sick, yes they don't belong out in society, but the response that says "I'll watch them be tortured with glee" is equally as sick.

[LiberalFighter]

124. I wonder if it is accidental or intentional

because you know some innocent people are going to be accidentally caught in the trap

How often would it be more than just accidental? How often would it be over zealous fanatics seeking notches on their belt by any means possible. They know they have the advantage of getting a conviction. How many have the financial resources to fight a wrongful charge?

[amazona]

66. thank you for this post

It must have taken a lot of courage to write. It seems like there is a whole industry set up to create pedophiles who may -- or may not -- actually be of any danger to anyone.

[Progress]

77. My sympathies to your family for what you all have had to endure.

Thanks for sharing your son's story and helping to shed some light on this taboo subject. I can't get over what you were describing with regard to "plezmometors." What are these people - the thought police?

[frankly_fedup2]

80. I had to look up the correct word for this machine . . .

it's a plethysmograph.

You can do a search with that word in it, and you will find thousands of pages about it, and what the procedure is. It is total humiliation. It was to my son.

I'll never forget the night that Princess Diana was in that fatal car crash. I was sitting in the ICU waiting room because my son had been in a near fatal car crash earlier in the day. He had internal bleeding and they thought they would have to remove his spleen. He had ruptured the lining of his bowels, he had bruised his heart . . . and he was wearing his seatbelt. Thank God, because if he had not, he would have had such tremendous head injuries, he would have been killed.

The reason I bring this up is because once they took his catheter out, whenever he had to use the bathroom, he made the nurses come and get me to help him urinate. I was surprised because he was 18; however, he was more comfortable with his mother helping him than any of the nurses. Even when he had gone for doctor visits and they have checked him for hernia, it made him uncomfortable, and he would express it to me.

So I know when they placed this plethysmograph around his penis, then put on these like virtual reality glasses on him while he sits in a chair with it all hanging out, the part he doesn't want anyone but his mother or close male family to see, he has to be totally humiliated. Plus, if he moves, it will show a reading to whatever picture comes up. It is a very sensitive machine; however, it is not an exact science, and cannot be used in court. However, these counselors keep using it to keep these men, guilty or not, in these sessions. If the guys don't have any responses, then these counselors would not get paid. Do you see why they need to do all this testing, lie detectors, and counseling? CASH, CASH, CASH, and more CASH.

It's all about the money. My son has told me things they have said to him and other men in the room that makes my blood boil. He told me their favorite saying is . . . "We do not sympathize . . . we emphasize . . . because we do not care." Now that is a good counselor that wants to help someone out. It's the money.

The sad part that worries me, my son has told me there are some men in there that had been with little girls and boys that really needed help. He said the counselors treat them the worst. He told me that they are constantly picking on them, embarrassing them, hollering at them, etc. He told me he gets sooooooo upset sometimes that if he could, he would get up and tell them what he really thought of them. However, he has to sit there and tell them what they want to hear. I have always told him though, "Do not admit to ANYTHING that you do not really feel. I don't care if they say you are in denial. If they show you a picture of a naked baby that you find disgusting, you tell them. Do not let them talk you into having some kind of hidden feelings about that." Basically, I told him be 100% honest. He says he has and they keep telling him that he is in denial.

Well friends (I feel I can call you that now), I appreciate the eyes listening to me today. I know I have went on and on about it, and my arms are worn out, so I know your eyes must be. But I want to thank you for reading and trying to understand there are always several sides to every issue.

There is not just a black side and a white side like the Republicants think.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

134. HOLY F***ING CRAP! MUDDLEOFTHEROAD COME HERE PRONTO!!!

"If the guys don't have any responses, then these counselors would not get paid."

I eagerly await your comment on the possibility of impartiality and fairness in a situation like that.

[DrWeird]

81. That rather succintly answers the original question.

Who's more of a pervert, your son or the guy who sticks electrodes to his body and forces him to watch child pornography?

Clearly the latter, and the same with the people who would gleefully watch.

[frankly_fedup2]

83. Always the simple answer bears the truth. (nt)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

93. I wish solidarity towards you and your son here was unanimous.

Seems so obvious. Alas...

[Uzybone]

109. This is horrible

I hate pedophiles but it sounds like your son is far from one. I really feel bad for your situation and I hope this somehow works out. Our "justice" system is full of shit.

[belle]

125. Wow, that's horrifying.

My sympathies. What a nightmare.

[JackRiddler]

73. Madame, aren't you mixing things up?!

You think a rapist is in the same category as an alcoholic?!

[jennygirl]

111. I am a recovering alcoholic and I resent you labeling me with a pedophile!

I hope none of your children ever experience a mental illness that causes them to self-medicate with alcohol when they can't afford their expensive meds. I am stable now and resent your labeling me with someone who would hurt someone as innocent as a child. You are are a cold, heartless person who needs to open up your mind and your heart. An addict or alcoholic is not a criminal but a person who is needs helps. It has been shown statistically that pedophiles are recidivists who are beyond help. Go to an AA or NA meeting and see the difference.

[7th_Sephiroth]

144. Statutory rape

the statutes say 16-18 can fuck the rest of your life up, problem is that human nature and law are different things, i personally advocate the age of consent for girls to be 13 for guys under 21, because seriously, i believe that most girls are capable (and allready are) of consent

[Muddleoftheroad]

148. Are you serious?

I would comment about your age of consent idea, but it speaks for itself in very strange ways.

[bearfan454]

3. The repukes are perverted in their way of thinking

that hurts working people.

[eissa]

4. No sympathy here

pedophiles are one group of sickos that I would stand by and watch get tortured with glee.

[molly]

6. AMEN!

there has never-ever been a rehabilitated pedophile.

[Occulus]

25. there have, however, been cases

of people being labeled pedophiles when they are nothing of the kind. One case I can think of, I belive it was in Ohio, involved a woman who had taken photos of her kids for the family album.

One of those photos was of her kids in the tub taking a bath. She was reported to the police as a potential pedophile by the shop she took the photos to to be developed. I believe she eventually was convicted of one sex crime or other.

Basically, even if you're innocent, if you get labeled as someone who committed a sex crime, that's dexactly what you are, and you're treated like it. Even if acquitted, the stigma remains.

Not that true pedophiles shouldn't be convicted, but let's apply some reason when we do so.

[Pithlet]

45. I agree.

It is vitally important to find pedophiles and stop them before they find another innocent victim.

But if we allow ourselves to be caught up in a pedophile hunting frenzy, we may cast too wide of a net, and snare people who are innocent. It's happened, before. There are more cases of innocent people being prosecuted for crimes they've never committed.

[frankly_fedup2]

61. I couldn't agree more.

People hear the word "pedophile" and immediately think of someone that is nasty dirty, sneaking in the shadows, laying in wait for a child. Unfortunately, there are some out there; however, not every person accused is automatically guilty. But, you have to prove you are innocent because you are automatically convicted as guilty.

On thing that has surprised me over the last year is the Catholic Church. Has anyone heard any of the RR saying anything about these pedophile priests? I cannot remember hearing anything about it. Also, why do they not fall under the same law as anyone else that has molested a child?

Just wondering???

[frankly_fedup2]

63. I would greatly appreciate your telling that to the . . .

counselors that are charging my son $40.00 a week to go to classes. My son is not a pedophile (complete story posted above); however, they insist he go to these classes.

I agree. The only way is through chemical castration. That is the only way.

[Must_B_Free]

7. Well, they were already victimized as children

doesn't that count for anything? Shouldn't we have sympathy for victims?

Theirs is a condition of mental illness - will you gleefully watch as all people with mental problems are tortured?

Should we just start torturing the misfortunate? Is that the answer?

[molly]

10. What would you suggest?

not all of them were abused children. The answer is to lock them up together and throw away the key. They should never be allowed to roam freely.

[Must_B_Free]

18. Why stop there?

why not lock up Boobooday in post #14? He's already a mark... He's tainted - a pedophile waiting to come out, right? How can we trust him in public, knowing that he's been infected with the disease?

(no offense intended boobooday - please recognize that I am being feceious for the sake of argument)

[Rainbowreflect]

34. I believe there is a very good chance they were all abused as children.

They may not admit it or even remember.
This does not excuse what they do, but if we make sure all victims get the help and support they need maybe we could stop future pedophiles.

[tkmorris]

105. Blind hatred......

is NEVER the answer. Never. Not one question has ever been posed to anyone anywhere in which the best answer was to close their mind and hate.

The story above in this thread is a good example of why this is true. The desire to protect children is a valiant one but it should always be approached with reason and an open mind.

[eissa]

17. Not true

Not all pedophiles were victims, and not all victims of pedophiles grow up to be them. As a victim of a pedophile, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to sexually assault a child. In fact, as my post above indicates, I'm in the opposite camp. And please don't lump in other mental illness victims with pedophiles -- they are in a fucked-up group all together.

[Heddi]

20. I was the victim of a pedophile

repeatedly in my youth.

He was molested by his neighbor when he was younger. That was his excuse for repeatedly sodomizing me from ages 10-15.

He was molested by his neighbor when he was younger. That was his excuse as to why he was a habitual sexual offender, raping young girls and boys, raping above-age women throughout his life.

He was molested by his neighbor when he was younger. That was his excuse why he should be allowed to do what he wanted and never suffer repercussions.

I was molested when I was younger. So were (and are) millions and millions of other children.

But I'm not a pedophile. Neither are millions of other victims of child molestation.

I have sympathy for ANYONE who was an innocent victim of adult predatory behaviour. I have sympathy for ANYONE who had to endure the pain and humilation of being raped, sodomized, buggered, molested, fingered, felt-up, or jacked-off by an adult.

But I have NO sympathy for anyone who MAKES THE DECISION to hurt a child, regardless of their past childhood horrors.

The beast who irrevocably changed my life, and the lives of dozens of other (known) children in our area MADE A CHOICE to live by a school, befriend underaged children, take those children into his (my) home and rape them. THAT WAS A CHOICE.

Pedophillia isn't a mental illness like schizophrenia or depression or dementia. No one CHOOSES to be depressed, or have hallucinations, or be paranoid. There is no CHOICE one can make in those situations to make their mental illness manifest itself or not.

Pedophilles, however, have TOTAL choice over whether they rape a child. They have TOTAL choice over whether they hold a child down and repeatedly force sex acts upon a 10year old boy.

To say that because pedophilles are a blight on society means that I'm all for torturing the mentally ill is just fucking sick.

I really hope that you or your family NEVER have to deal with the LIFELONG STRESS, HURT, HUMILIATION, PAIN, SUFFERING that a pedophile inflicts.

Do you know what it's like to be 10 years old and taken to a clinic to be tested for STD's? FOr AIDS? For Syphllis? I do. It's not fun. Not in the least.

Do you know what it's like to be 10 years old and forced to watch a porn movie while your "mentally-ill, sympathy-ridden" perpitrator reinacts what's shown on the screen onto your body? I do. And that's not fun either.

I have NO sympathy for pedophiles. NONE. My sympathy went away when I lost my virginity when I was 10 years old, against my will, being tied down to a bed and fucked repeatedly for 4 hours. That's when my sympathy went far, far away for those sick fucks.

[eissa]

24. Oh God

How I feel for you; I've got tears running down my face. I will NEVER be convinced that these fucking freaks deserve anything less than to be castrated with chainsaws.

[molly]

26. Thankyou, Heddi!

I remember you posting this in the past when we were discussing rape and victims. :hug:

Many who have not been a victim of this refuse to understand the lifelong pain involved.

[Heddi]

32. well I think alot of people

see the movies on Lifetime and the NBC Sunday Night MOvie where a child is molested, the perp is a haggy looking old guy with no teeth that's in his late 60's, lives with his mom and a million cats, and feels safe in the knowledge that their child would NEVER befriend an old hag like that, so their child would NEVER be molested.

But they don't realize that pedophiles KNOW what they have to do to get the attention of children. They dress nice, they know all the 'cool' stuff that pre-teens know about. They talk the lingo. They sympathize with you. Yeah, your parents ARE boorish! What kind of parent wouldn't let their kid watch an R-rated movie? You know, anytime you want, you can come over to my house and watch R-Rated movies. I won't tell your mom and dad. They wouldn't understand either.

Hey, and when you come to my house, I'll have lots of stuff for you too. I'll buy you the stuff your parents won't. I'll be your friend. Your GROWNUP friend. But really, just because I'm 28, don't let that scare you. But remember---you can't tell your mom or dad about our friendship because they won't understand. They'll be jealous of the friendship we have. They'll say that I'm too old to be hanging out with a 12 year old. But your parents don't know me. They don't know how much I love you. I love you like you were 28 like me. I love you so much that I'm going to show you how two adults love each other. Come into my bedroom. We'll watch TV in there. It's quieter in there. We won't hear the phone ringing......

------

TV movies and blurbs in magazines do NOTHING to express even a tenth of the pain that is associated with child molestation, either on the part of the victim, or the part of the parents and family members involved.

They don't know that their child REALLY WILL have questions as to whether or not to tell their parents that John down the street did bad things to him. John's a good guy. He's friends with dad. They have BBQ's together. He helps out with the yard work. He's mom's only option for a babysitter during the summer. By telling mom and dad, I'm just making things WORSE for them because mom can't afford a babysitter during the summer. Besides, it's all my fault anyways. I wasn't supposed to watch R-Rated movies to begin with, but I did with him, and if I had just done what Mom and Dad told me to do, I wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. I'm going to get in trouble for lying to them about being at Jane's house when I was really at John's house watching Porky's Revenge. I'm going to get in trouble. I don't want to get in trouble. John's right. Mom and dad DON'T understand me.....

.....sick...sick...sick...

[Must_B_Free]

70. Ok - but address the issue

we have heard two sides of the story now

one who was arbitrarliy judged to have committed a crime by the technicality of someone being 16 instead of 17.

another who is the classic victim and noone can really feel all the pain, noone realizes they the perp is right next to us.

The issue I was drawing was with the culture of a police state. Here's a guy who is fighting crime but in a way where he seems to be getting off on some questionable motivations as in shitting in someone's mouth. He has called a pervert. Someone drew the question - maybe he's trying to build a fake shield for his own pedophilic illness, a justification or his collection of illegal pornography....

At what point does the positive culturalization of "killing the bad guy by any means possible" cross the line?

And what happened with Scott Ritter? Is he a pedophile?

[Heddi]

87. No, you address the issue

you are the one who said: Well, they were already victimized as children doesn't that count for anything? Shouldn't we have sympathy for victims? Theirs is a condition of mental illness - will you gleefully watch as all people with mental problems are tortured?

Should we just start torturing the misfortunate? Is that the answer?


You are equating pedophillia (one who has a sexual attraction towards prepubesent children. Also refers to those who enact upon the sexual attraction by engaging in inappropriate sexual conduct with prepubesent children) with mental illness.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder. So is depression. But someone who is clinically depressive does NOT choose to be clinically depressed. Equally, an adult who has sexual attractions towards prepubesent children does not CHOOSE to have that attraction, but those who act on their fantasies Do, in fact, CHOOSE to have sexual relations with children.

We, as a society, should hold our sympathy and pity and empathy for those that TRULY deserve it. We don't have sympathy for a serial murderer--who often grew up in horrid conditions which lead to mental illness causing them to become serial murders.

We don't have sympathy for rapists, who often have issues with women and issues of holding power over women, but rapists, too, suffer from mental illnesses.

Certain people with mental illnesses are kept from society in general because those people pose a threat to society in general. Take a schizophrenic who refuses to take their medication, and has homocidal tendencies. That person repeatedly tries to act on those homocidal tendencies. Generally, we as a society will remove that person from the general population and put them in special housing where they are limited in the acting-out of their homocidal tendencies.

Equally, those who prey upon children, who haven't yet formed the cognitive skills to know an adult with good intentions vs. an adult without good intentions should equally be removed from society.

I never advocated ANYWHERE< in this post or any other, for "killing the bad guy by any means possible"---I'm against the death penalty, although I have my own personal fantasies of justice for the sick fucks who torture children and force them to perform things that no child should have to endure.

Could this cop do this job to fake a shield for his own pedophilic illness? Sure. Some people become police officers because they have issues with power, and enjoy the ability to enforce power over people. That doesn't mean that all cops are sadistic, or all people who 'out' internet pedophiles are perverts themselves.

But it is you, who throughout this thread, who has stated that we must feel sympathy for pedophiles. We must comfort them in their illness. To me, you're basically saying "So what if they hurt a child. They, themselves were hurt too. The perpitrator AND the child are both victims of child abuse" and that is just bullshit.

As stated above, I DO have sympathy for anyone--child or adult, alive or dead, good natured or evil, who suffered abuse (physical, mental, emotional, sexual) abuse at the hands of someone they trusted. HOWEVER, My sympathy GOES OUT THE WINDOW when that person MAKES THE DECISION to inflict the same pain upon MORE innocent children. The "circle of violence" canard doesn't hold up for me. I'm a victim of the "circle of violence"---Perhaps my molestor's molestor was molested as a child, and that person was molested as a child, ad infinitum. Does that make the pain they inflicted on me, and countless others somehow less painful? Does that make their acts upon children somehow less bad?

Most people who physically abuse their spouse and/or their children grew up in physically abusive homes themselves. Do we feel pitty for the man who killed his wife in a fit of rage because dinner wasn't hot because his daddy beat him with a belt? Do we feel sorrow for the mother who dislocates her child's arm or burns them with hot liquid because their room wasn't clean enough because she was beaten by her parents when she was younger?

No. We feel bad that those things happened to them in their youth, but we do not allow their abuse to be an exemption from their behaviour as an adult. That man had a CHOICE not to physically beat his wife. That woman had a CHOICE not to throw boiling water in the face of her child.

Equally, my perpitrator made the CHOICE---repeatedly, to stalk children. He made the CHOICE to always live within walking distance to elementary and middle schools. He made the CHOICE to live in child-infested neighborhoods. He made the CHOICE to befriend children with ill intentions. He made the CHOICE to undress a child and sodomize them. These are all CHOICES, and I feel no pity for them, and it's quite telling that you think we should.

[Must_B_Free]

91. This choice argument is also the center of the Gay debate

"they choose to be gay" / "we don't choose to be gay"

as someone pointed out - we don't yet know what motivates and controls people - clearly there is a spectrum of controls and motivations.

"But it is you, who throughout this thread, who has stated that we must feel sympathy for pedophiles."

Exactly wrong. My point was about the culturization (or reculturalization, we've historically been cultured this way) of brutality and violence. My point was about the illness of predatory behaviour, regardless of its benefit. If we accept a lust for revenge and insulate ourselves from feeling of compassion - that is a dangerous step.

"I have my own personal fantasies of justice for the sick fucks who torture children and force them to perform things that no child should have to endure." This I find frightning in itself. by the connotations, it makes on wonder what pleasures you would be deriving from specific acts of violence and torture. Is this really an area of your sould that you want to nurture?

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. There is a big difference between motivation and control

We all have many motivations, few of those actually control us. Smokers get addicted to nicotine, but many quit. Fewer still would assault someone for a cigarette. And I doubt any would kill or rape for one.

You call it a lust for revenge. Many of us would call it justice. If you molest an 8-year-old girl, you make a choice to do so. I would make a choice to ensure you could never do so again.

And, being honest, if the parent caught you and killed you, I wouldn't convict them of anything.

[Heddi]

94. I never said I would ACT upon

my ideal version of justice, but then again, I think I have a right to have the feelings that I do, considering that I had a penis forced down my throat on a daily basis from the age of 10 through 15. I also had a penis forcefully inserted, repeatedly, into both my vagina and rectum on a nearly daily basis as well. I was forcefully held down while an adult in a position of power performed oral sex on me when I was 11 years old. I also had spoons, knives, candles, bottles, dildos, vibrators, TV remote controls inserted into my vagina and my rectum repeatedly.

I was forced to watch pornography as his penis was forced into my mouth, my vagina, and my rectum. I was tied to a chair as I was sodomized with banannas and zucchini. I was forced to watch as he performed oral and anal sex on my pet dog.

So please save your sanctimony and arm-chair psychology for someone who will buy it.

Again, I was taken to a clinic when I was 10 years old to have an AIDS test. I was also tested for oral and genital herpes, gonorrhea, syphllis, chladymia and HPV (human papoloma virus---genital warts).

When I told my mother I was molested, she didn't believe me (but believed me enough to get me tested). She allowed the monster to continue to live in our house, to rape me as he saw fit, and to rape other neighborhood children as he saw fit.

So I really do believe I have the right to fantasize about the things I would like to have done to him. I think I EARNED the right to fantasize about MY ultimate justice, although it will never come to fruitition. And MORE importantly, i will never seek out an opportunity to exact my revenge, and if the situation presented itself to me, I would walk away and not raise a finger to the monster who caused me a lifetime of stress, horror, nightmares, sexual frigidity, and more baggage than I care to carry around with me.

and my feelings of justice have nothing to do with a lust for violence or torture---I learned at an early age that violence and torture were not for me---in any way.

What I have is a lust for justice. For, example, when he went to court on a separate child molestation charge when I was 16, I went before the judge. The judge questioned why a 12 year old girl (which I was at the time) would be masturbating (which my perp caught me doing), and outright suggested that I must have condoned AND contributed to the sexual relations between my perp and myself, therefore, HE was more a victim than I was. HE was a victim of a coquetish 12 year old who used her budding sexual appeal to get one over on an older man, and that I was just coming out with false allegations of child molestation at age 16 because I was jealous that he had found another girl who was interested in him.

Of course, the judge saw nothing wrong with a 31 year old man being 'interested' in a 9 year old girl, especially having been found by her parents in the young girls room watching pornography.

The judge, like you, felt that the perpitrator of repeated sexual assaults against children and adults was more of a victim than his victims were, gave him 30 days for "contributing to the deliquency of a minor", and handed down a 'time served' sentence. Literally, that day, he went out and sexually assaulted a mentally-handicapped boy who lived in our neighborhood, was caught, and arrested.

However, this was back in the early 90's. There was no sexual-offenders list. There were no watchdog groups like there are now. He has no picture on the internet and a list of his crimes (a total of over 10 arrests for sex with children, and 3 adult-rape charges have been levied against him, the first at age 15). He's spent a good deal of his life in jail, but as far as I know, he's out on the streets now, living in another child-infested neighborhood, befriending innocent children who think he's an alright guy, and victimizing them the same as he did to me, and many of the people who lived in my neighborhood.

---

Let me ask you this---do you have children? Can you HONESTLY say that if you found out that your 8 year old, or 14 year old had been BRUTALLY sexually assaulted by a trusting adult (or shit--not so trusting adult), that you would go quietly into the night and tell your child that they must see their perp as a victim just as they are? That you would begrudge your child for thinking of ways to exact justice, even if they never had the URGE, DESIRE, or WANT to act on those feelings?

Are you telling me that as a parent, knowing your child was sexually brutalized, that you would not even for an IOTA of a minute think of your OWN ways of exacting justice on the pervert who assaulted your child?

If you say Yes to either one of those...I don't know....you're either the most super-sonic human on the planet, or you're seriously deluding yourself into thinking the pain involved in such crimes (ESPECIALLY as the victim) isn't as strong as it really is.

[Heddi]

96. And equally

I can't believe that you're equating the "They choose to prey upon and sexually assault children" with someone's argument that homosexuals "choose" to be homosexual.

That's disgusting and a totally lacking in logic to boot.

So are you saying that either EVERYTHING in life is a choice or NOTHING is?

I've seen studies that state that certain mental illnesses are, in fact, genetic.

I've not seen ANYTHING that states that the urge to act upon pedophilic deisres is genetic or hereditary in any way. The only SLIGHT correlation that could be made is if one were sexually abused by a parent, and that person went on to sexually abuse THEIR children, and then that person went to sexually abuse THEIR children---that's more "environmentally hereditary" rather than physiologically (same reason that spousal abuse isn't necessarily physiologically hereditary in the sense of an 'abuse gene' passed from parent to child, but environmentally, if mom abuses dad, child sees it, grows up and abuses their spouse---environmental, not genetic)

Equally, there is no known 'cause' for HETERO OR HOMOSEXUALITY. As far as I'm concerned, there's no choice involved, although I'm not saying in any way that sexual preference is a mental illness.

However, pedophillia is a different sort of sexual preference. It's a sexual preference with the caveat that an innocent, unconsenting party is abused while a consenting adult isn't.

I suppose, being a heterosexual female, that I *CHOOSE* to have sex with my husband. I'm not forced to, and I don't force myself to. At any time I wish, I can stop having sex with him and equally he can do the same with me.

So if you're saying that pedophillia is some how hard-wired into the genes of those that (in your terms) Suffer from such an affliction, it's still possible to CHOOSE whether to engage in the behaviour or not.

Personally, I don't think that pedophillia is in the same vein of mental illness as is often thought of (depression, bi-polar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, etc).

There are people in society we label PSYCHOPATHIC. We don't lock people up because they THINK in a psychopathic way. We don't lock them up because they have no feelings for other. They're only put away when they ACT on their psychopathic desires. The desire to kill. To maim. To kidnap. To rape. To murder. To torture.

You seem to have a problem getting it through your head that I am not saying that anyone who looks at a busty 14 year old and says "gee, she looks hot" should be put away for the rest of their lives.

However, someone who ACTS upon those feelings has no place in society.

Talk about rehabilitation and dealing with the cause of the problem all you want. The fact is, in ALL of the support groups I've been to, IN ALL of the therapy groups I've been to, the people who were childhood victims of pedophiles were victims of REPEATEDLY INCARCERATED PEDOPHILES.

We may have been the first they were arrested for, but the chances of us being the ONE AND ONLY CHILD they raped is quite slim. Equally telling is that also, in addition to our perps being arrested and incarcerated for crimes against children BEFORE they acted on us, once being released from jail, they victimized AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. We weren't the first, and we weren't the last.

Sadly, I've come to the conclusion that there is no rehabilitation for people who ACT UPON their fantasies of sexual relations with children. Chemical and physical castration don't work either, because one needs not a penis to rape or molest another.

[Must_B_Free]

101. you and I are talking about two different things

My topic was about the mentality of the catcher getting off on this thrill of catching someone and your took that opportunity to soapbox about a tangential aspect of that.

I didn't start this thread to stump for pedophiles, in case that's what you're worried about. Whether we feel compassion or allow ourselves to attempt to comprehend what is going on in these sick folks heads and how they got there - that' another issue that I wasn't intending to focus on.

Clearly we heard one horror story of a familys suffering because of the arbitrary inflexible nature of the law and system in the matter concerning a 16 year old and an 18 year old. Could you comment on that case?

[Muddleoftheroad]

104. There is nothing wrong with feeling good catching crooks

Cops feel good for putting away bad guys. So do attorneys. Hell, so do judges I guess. As a former journalist, I can tell you I felt good when we made life tough for bad people.

Some of us revel in justice being done.

On edit: I wanted to correct your example. From the infamous post #49.

"When he was 21, he had sex with an underage girl of 16."

There is nothing about being 18 in that quote. He was an adult male preying on a teenaged girl.

[Heddi]

107. according to the author

he wasn't 18, he was 21.

I don't know what to think. According to the poster, the girl consented. She was 16, and in most states, that is the age of consent.

However, he was 21...I really honestly don't know.

I have to believe the poster when she says her son wasn't out to victimize. God knows I've known enough guys in High School who were 17 or 18 who dated middle-schoolers and freshmen. I'm sure they had sex, consentually. Do I think that's rape, or child molestation? Not necessarily, and only necessarily depending on the intentions of the older party...and intentions are very hard to prove, if not impossible.

I do know I would feel differently if the son, instead of being 18 or 21, was 24, or 25, or 32...why? I don't know. The age gap says alot. I don't think that many normal relationships come from 32 year olds dating someone half their age. There's a HUGE issue with trust and the potential for someone taking advantage of youth, etc.

I'm personally conflicted with ages of consent. Let's say the age of consent in a particular state is 16 years old. I'm not sure why a girl who's 15 years and 364 days old is unable to give consent, but one day later she's a fully-functioning adult who understands the ramifications of sexual relationships, etc.

Equally, why is someone who's 14 years old and 364 days unable to get a drivers permit because they don't have the maturity and intelligence to do so, but suddenly, a day later when they're 15, they've suddenly grown to fully-rationalizing adults in the span of 24 hours time that has the ability to get a drivers permit and within 30 days, become a fully licensed (although in most states, heavily regulated with regards to when they drive) driver?

I do want to apologize for any rude tone I may have taken with you in this thread. This is a very sensitive issue for me (obviously) and I truly am sorry if I offended you in any way, and I apologize if I misconstrued what you were saying, or what point you were making in some threads which caused me to get a bit heated.

I think you'll find that anyone who's suffered this (either personally, or as a parent or loved one of one who's suffered personally) has alot of emotions involved, and they're very hard to explain to yourself, much less to others, MUCH LESS on a message board where vocal tone and sarcastic remarks don't read like we hear them in our heads as we're typing them out.

I do believe the law, not just in issues of child abuse, but in many issues, is inflexible. I totally dislike the idea of mandatory minimums for ANY Crime--they remove all discretion from the judge. Equally, I think that many judges are still too lenient when handing sentences for those found guilty (or those who plead guilty) to sexual crimes. We've come a long way, but not that far, and rape (to me) is just like murder, in that you live with the trauma and fear FOR EVER. No amount of therapy or whatever can remove that seed of fear that was planted in your head.

I have to go to work now---ugh. Have a good night, and again, I apologize if I was unncessarily harsh in some of the things I said :)

[Must_B_Free]

112. I apologize for my insensitivity

I frequently take up the "devils advocate" type of position for the sake of stimulating real debate. Surely you put a level of sanity and proper realistic perspective to this discussion.

[Must_B_Free]

97. Here's your argument:

"From what I have endured, I am the sole authority and noone else has a right to comtemplate ot comment on this subject. Let me go through a laundry list of terror and see if anyone can challenge this."

I don't accept the position you are selling. I am from Amish country where true Christian values are still practiced.

Was your molestation worse than a family of 5 in a buggy being plowed into by a drunk driver and having their bodies flung, broken, mangled and shredded? And that driver CHOSE to drive drunk.

Is you life happier than the survivors who live with the last memories of their closest loved ones being bashed to death? Perhaps enduring life threatening injuries themselves?

What would you want for the driver? Don't bother, I can already guess the answer from what you have connotated previously.

Here's my point - do you know what those Amish survivors did to the driver? They forgave him, because that is what their religious beliefs teach.

A list of your suffering does not convince me to reject my values and embrace yours. I don't support a eye for an eye - I don't think violence and brutality justifies more violence and brutality , I don't support the death penalty and I think issues surrounding personal responsibility and choice are still up for grabs in some areas of discussion. I tend more towards treatment than incarceration for drug offenders and I would not brand that 18 year old boy a rapist or pedophile for consentual sex with a 16 year old.

[Heddi]

99. Good for those amish drivers

So I'm "bad" because I can't find it in my heart to forgive someone who has NO remorse for what he's done? Who has shown lack of remorse by continuing again, and again, and again, and again to victimize children.

Wow. What large people those Amish are and what a Small person I am :eyes:

And you know, I could really give a flying fuck whether you embrace my values or not. Considering that you know NOTHING of my values, your dismissal of them means nothing to me.

And I'm in no way trying to dredge up a laundry list to see if anyone can "top that" and you're very sick for suggesting that I did it for those reasons.

What I did was to list for you, in as plain of english as I could, just a small smidgen...just a scratch on the surface of the torture I endured as a child. A 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 year old child. Every day for those years my life was hell. Even MORE hell was that NO ONE BELIEVED ME.

I would never say that the crimes commited against me are worse than the crimes commited against anyone else. It's all relative. I can't feel that family's pain because I'm not that family. But I empathize with them and am sorry that they suffered a tragedy.

You, however, seem to dismiss EVERY SINGLE ACCOUNT of childhood sexual abuse on this thread. You dismiss the victims and their rage. You dismiss our feelings. YOU are saying that our pain is less than the Amish Families.

YOU are saying that we are small-minded for not forgiving. Well, when someone asks for forgiveness, I will give it. To this day, no sorrow has been shown except when he is caught (then he's OH SO SORRY...he got caught). No appology. NOTHING.

You act as if I should be ashamed of what happened to me. FUCK THAT. I lived in shame for too many years of my life. I didn't talk about it. I didn't think about it (even though I'm reminded of it every day of my life). I didn't tell others about it.

But fuck that. THIS is a part of me. THIS made me who I am today. THIS IS ME. I WAS SEXUALLY TORTURED AS A CHILD. THat doesn't make ME uncomfortable--it's me. it's my history. It's my life.

If it makes YOU uncomfortable, then that's your problem. I'm sorry if you can't have a bit of compassion for the CHILD victims because you're so wrapped up in feeling sorrow and compassion for the ADULT PERPITRATORS.

And no, I don't feel bad for drunk drivers who CHOOSE to get drunk, who CHOOSE to get behind the wheel of a car, and who CHOOSE to start the car, put it in drive, and careen into a family of five. THat driver made the choice DOWN THE LINE to partake in reckless activities that ultimately cost the lives of a family.

You seem to not understand PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY. Did someone hold a gun to the head of the driver and FORCE them to drive drunk? Was their life in danger by NOT driving drunk?

And don't EVER assume what I think. You'll fall short every time, just as you've done in every comment you've made about me and your 'assumption' of my thoughts throughout this thread.

[Must_B_Free]

110. My first reply

In my very first reply to you I tried to get you on topic and clarify the topic.

"And I'm in no way trying to dredge up a laundry list to see if anyone can "top that" and you're very sick for suggesting that I did it for those reasons."

Whatever reasons you chose to take the thread there are your own. I don't think you were ever really on topic as I posted it...

"YOU are saying that our pain is less than the Amish Families."

No, I merely brought that up as a reflective demonstration of your own post. You were the one to try to take over the argument by out-legitimizing everyone.

"What I did was to list for you, in as plain of english as I could, just a small smidgen...just a scratch on the surface of the torture I endured as a child. A 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 year old child. Every day for those years my life was hell. Even MORE hell was that NO ONE BELIEVED ME.

I am sorry you endured that hell. I would be sorrier still if you were put on some institutional suspect list because of it. From a statisitcal risk perspective aren't you more prone towards acting out the behaviour again yourself? Would you want a system so zealous that the victims now become suspects by proxy?

You act as if I should be ashamed of what happened to me. FUCK THAT

This is your own trip that you are incflicting on eneryone. You won't find anything in this thread to support that outrageous statement.

I take it that some of the positions or some attitudes have been offensive to you as a victim of horrendous acts, for that I apologize. I wish you nothing but the best and hope that your concern and forthright open conversation of your story helps the world to be a better place.

As I continually state - my concern is for the nature of attitudes which embrace and justify brutality.

[booley]

145. I am not dissing your point..

..but at the same time turn it around.

Instead of ten, you are 30. and you didn't do anything but now becuase of what somebody underage said you did (and proabably coached into saying by an over zealouse police detective wanting a promotion) you are going to be shipped off to jail for most of your life, raped, brutalized (and don't worry about keeping it a secret becuase no one will care even if you do tell.) and more then likely killed off (since "predophiles are considered fair game)

Thats what happend to a friend of mine. And all becuase some kid lied.
You at least, get to live to have your anger and hopefully deal with it one day.
Of course, this is not about who sufffers most as if one side gets more points for so many rapes or whatever then another. And that's probably where this thread started going off track.
This isn't about if pedophiles are sick or willfully evil or whatever because until the law can actually discern who is actually a danger to society and who isn't, it's pointless to say what you would like to do with a pedophile in an ideal world. Becuase in this world, you can't even be sure he is one.

Does the pain of being a child and molested justify causing as much harm to another becuase of what you think they might have doneor do? Is it ok to protect innocence, even if you have to destroy the lives of innocent people to do it? And do these kinds of laws even do anything to stop child rape? Those are the real questions.

As for the choice thing, I'm gay and I'm not offended by the question of choice. But it's an intellectual question to me. Being gay, choice or not, isn't bad becuase it does not cause harm to others by sole virtue of it being same sex. Rape, child or no and even consensual sex with very young children with an adult does cuase harm.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Thank you

Sometimes it takes someone brave enough to bare their soul to prove a point. You proved it with you courage.

Thanks very much.

[daveskilt]

22. no it doesnt count for much.

1 in four woman has been raped...are 25% of women rapists? 1 in 6 children suffers serious sexual abuse - are 17% of our population pedophiles? Those who are abused are significantly more likely to become abusers than those not abused but those abused are far more likely to become victims again than to become abusers. Also most sexual abuse stays in the family...here we are talking about those who go out as predators. These people usually fit the profile of white males, middle class upbringing - physical or mental abuse is common and sometimes they have been sexually abused.

[lolly]

138. Well,

I would like to have them all put in jail, or at least neutralized.

I do believe that active, serial pedophiles are not curable.

I really can't imagine "glee" at seeing torture, however. I would describe the feeling of getting pedophiles locked up as relief, not glee.

[a_random_joel]

5. I think it's great!

1. Children cannot defend themselves.
2. Children do not have the experience to know potential dangers.

1. Pedophiles can defend themselves (to a greater extent than a child)
2. Pedophiles have more experience, and are ACTIVELY engaging the situation.

Don't cry to me if you play with fire and you get burned. They are predators. They deserve to be hunted themselves.

[Must_B_Free]

12. But, lets look at the root causes

if you really care about resolution to the problem, you have to look at the causes, not the symptoms.

Should we, for example, jail for life children who have been victimized by pedophiles because they will become pedophiles themselves?

[molly]

13. Very few abused children become pedophiles

[noonwitch]

43. That's true, but every pedophile was once an abused child

It's important to ensure that all survivors aren't labelled as potential offenders. That said, pretty much all offenders were once victims. My guess as to why some still grow up to become offenders is in how the abuse was dealt with, the frequency in which it occurred, the gender of the perp (males make up 90% of sex offenders), head injuries to the offenders as children, and who knows what other things factor in.
Some children experience sexual abuse, but it is confronted by either relatives or the criminal justice system and the child receives consistent love and support afterwards. Sometimes, it occurs and nobody ever intervenes and the child grows up assuming that this is normal behavior. Throw in a head injury that affects his impulse control, and you have a sex offender.
Sometimes, the foster care system doesn't help the child, and instead compounds the problems by shuffling him to one home after another, never letting the kid develop strong emotional ties to other people. Sometimes the kids' behavior is already out of control, with sexually acting out behaviors and other behavioral problems and the foster homes are not equipped to deal with it.
This is just my observations after 17 years of working in the child protection field, not hard-core scientific research. I do think that head injuries are a frequently overlooked significant factor to impulse control disorders and sociopathy.

[molly]

19. Great article

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093582/

snip....

"What science has revealed about the moral/medical roots of pedophiles is, of course, ambiguous. What is clear is that the binary choice laid out above is an oversimplification. The medical community, which started to view pedophilia as a disease rather than a crime in the 19th century, has amassed evidence that at least some violent and antisocial behaviors have genetic links and signposts. But researchers have been unable to isolate a biological cause for pedophilia, or even to agree on a personality profile. Not to mention the terrific confusion within the medical community in defining what this "disease" really involves. Until a few years ago, for example, the DSM-IV—the Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders—defined pedophilia as a disease only if the sufferer's "fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." In other words, a non-impaired, remorseless pedophile was apparently perfectly healthy."

more....

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093582/#ContinueArticle

[DrWeird]

21. I don't think you're going to get anywhere with calls to reason.

Pedophiles are sort of a whipping boy for otherwise progressive peoples primordial aggression. Basic human rights like protections against entrapment and cruel and unusual punishment go right out the window.

Most people agree that sexual predators are mentally insane. And many people agree that the mentally insane are not directly responsible for their crimes and need treatment instead of outright punishment, unlike sane criminals. Yet they refuse to put two and two together.

Not that I don't understand why they feel that way. It's kind of like The People vs. Larry Flynt. You have to stand up for everybody's rights, including the people you hate and find the most disgusting.

[eissa]

28. I can't believe what I just read

are you kidding me?! "calls to reason", "not directly responsible for their crimes"??? This is utter and complete bullshit.

[DrWeird]

30. Really?

So you think somebody with, say, schizophrenia grabs a baseball bat and attacks a taxidriver because he thought he was in league with the aliens who are about to invade, should do the same time as the guy who got in a bar fight?

[DrWeird]

33. Oh, I see.

You're the same poster who said they would gleeful watch pedophiles get tortured.

Yeah, that's reasonable.

:crazy:


Pedophiles are mentally ill. What's your excuse?

[eissa]

39. Not just watch

take part in if I had the opportunity.

[DrWeird]

40. That's just great.

After or before the trial?

[eissa]

42. :RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR:

(sound of chainsaw starting up)

[DrWeird]

44. Well, if you don't like the 8th amendment...

which others would you like to waive.

[booley]

146. Interesting so if they turn out to be innocent after all

..should thier next of kin have a chance to torture you in turn?

And how are you defining pedophile? becuase accroding to the law, if an 18 year old has consensual sex with someone 17 years and 364 days. he is a pedophile here where I live.

[Rich Hunt]

55. you're exactly correct

The so-called 'sex offender registries' come to mind. Many people on them engaged in victimless crimes.

[a_random_joel]

54. In a word...

Yes.

[Pithlet]

75. You would have a child put in jail

for being molested, because he/she MIGHT molest later? Really?

[a_random_joel]

76. The question was intentionally misleading

Of course I would not put a child in jail prior to commiting a wrong. But pedophiles are not children. Pedophiles prey on children.

The "I was abused" excuse does not ring true with me. Most victims I know are that much MORE unlikely to commit an act, because they HAVE experienced it themselves.

Pretty simple, actually.

[DrWeird]

8. Love the sinner hate the sin?

:evilgrin:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?

:evilgrin:

[daveskilt]

9. well I agree in principle but...

I looked up the offender register and know where all of the convicted pedophiles in my area live. I have a daughter and if she went missing I would be at each house the same day.

I do not agree that these folks (while clearly getting a twisted thrill in some cases) are victimizing anyone. A predator is not a victim even if he has been misled about his prey.

[lolly]

139. Well, how about this scenario

If, God forbid, your daughter went missing and you suspected something, would you rather have a list of pedophiles who had been caught victimizing children to begin your search,

or

would you want to have a list that included 21 year-old boy/men who had had sex with 16 year old girls, and elderly men who had been convicted of the "crime" of homosexuality/sodomy in the 50s and 60s, etc. etc. (yes, when the registries started, these men had to go sign up too, because they were "convicted sex offenders")

[barbaraann]

11. The local news shows are worse.

They constantly bombard us with lurid, sick stories of all sorts of sexual perversions and are creating an ugly reality which omits ALL positive, mentally healthy realities.

What I see the local news shows doing is defining the norm of human behavior as what the sickest of humans do just through sheer repetition and omission. I try to watch as little as possible.

[Must_B_Free]

15. My feeling is thet they are capitalizing on the perversion

They are hawking a buck off these peoples problems!!! What is sicker than that? Television exploitation is the merchandizing of soft core pedophilia.

[barbaraann]

60. Good point.

Pedophilia is one thing. Capitalizing on it is another.

And then when the sports news is one they turn all chirpy and happy. The manipulation/mind control is astounding.

[boobooday]

14. Their obsession is out of proportion

Their obsession, as always, is out of proportion. They are way more concerned with any kind of sexual deviance or scandal than with the type of problems that Jesus addressed: corrupt clergy, poverty, injustice.

They are sexually repressed, so every sexual feeling has to be expressed through anger. It's very sad.

Pedophiles are a bad thing. I was assaulted as a child, and I have children. But their outrage is disingenuous.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[emanymton]

16. Define Pedophiles ...

seems to me the only "pedophiles" cruising the internet are police and perverts trying to entrap others.

The link you posted leads one to a web page of thug who takes advantage of others.

[Must_B_Free]

23. go to the root URL

there is a whole club of thugs who take delight in being predators of these victimizers.

Clearly we must thank tham for their efforts in most cases, I am sure they have nailed some nasy dangerous people and made our lives safer. Yet I have an uncomfortable memory of one Scott Ritter being set up in just such a sting.

1. we don't know that these people are actually offenders - they may be well aware that they are talking to a phony and may just be curious to expose them.

[Az]

27. Changing social systems

Ours is an increasingly complex society. So much so that it is necissary to continue to push back the age at which children are considered to be educated enough to be able to defend themself in our society.

No one consulted our biology on this matter though. Biologically we are revved up and ready to go long before we have the wisdom to guide our choices or protect ourselves. Thus we find a dilema in the intersection of sexual desire and social responsibility.

The matter is further complicated by our societies virtual worship of youth. The height of sexual appeal has been tied to youth. It has been mass marketted, packaged, and presented in bombardment format in our media.

There are going to be people that for a combination of reasons are drawn to children. Due to our societal nature this becomes a predatory condition. It is exasterbated by the lack of children knowing enough about how to defend themself. Thus we have to protect them.

Unfortunately the climate on this matter has raised the issue to one of monsterous proportions. These people need help to deal with their inappropriate desires. In the climate of our society there is not a chance they will raise their hand and ask for help. Instead they will seek out institutions they believe will give them strength to keep their desires hidden.

Churches are just such an institution. Some believe that by becoming a member of the clergy the institution of religion will lend them the fortitude to deal with their dilema. In the end though it only makes the matter worse. The clergy is seen (until recently) as a trusted figure head. Thus while they avoid really dealing with the issues they have placed themself in a position where they have access to exactly that which they are drawn to in a trusted capacity. Few things could be as dangerous.

This problem has to be brought out into the open and dealt with responsibly and rationally. We cannot simply destroy these people because of what they are attracked to. They have a real problem. Their own nature places them at odds with the needs of the society. They have my pity. This does not mean I will cease defending children form them however.

[trumad]

35. A thread defending pedophiles...

Wow!

[DrWeird]

36. Hey, I'm just defending the constitution.

I've you've got problem, take it up with the founding fathers.

[Az]

38. Just don't like the idea

Of someone being tarred and feathered for something they may not be able to deal with on their own. At our level of civilization there has to be a better way of dealing with problems than labeling a person a monster.

I seek solutions. Decrying them as monsters does not solve the problem and makes it harder to deal with. They did not ask to be the way they are. There are some differences that occur in peoples minds that are tolerable in society and some that are not.

Their's is an unfortunate condition. It puts them at odds with society for very valid reasons. But the validity of the opposition does not change what they are. Pity is appropriate.

[Must_B_Free]

50. My interest was the question "how ugly do we make ourselves in response?"

some guy dreaming about figuratively shitting in peoples mouths is a hero?

The proper response to uglyniness and horrific behaviour is NOT more of the same!!!

I think at some point this predatory "catch the bad guy" mentality reaches a level of sickness.

It's like drug offenders - do we just go for a simple black and white understanding? Why not cut the hands off of thievs then like Islamic law?

And what of the drug offenders? Are they horrible monsters who should be locked away, or are they sometimes victims of system and circumstance? What of the families that are destroyed by drug convictions? Are the children left behind also being made to suffer for the crimes of the parent?

And what of terror? Do we simply fight terrorism by going around the world blowing up anyone we suspect of opposing us or is it really a more complex situation than "black and white"?

I don't know - all I can say is I saw a supposed "hero" talking about "shitting in peoples mouths" and I had to think twice...

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Nope, no pity

Sometimes monsters are exactly what they aspire to be. They deserve no pity and get none from me.

Many molested children do not go on to molest others. There is a choice involved here. They CHOOSE to harm others. I would gladly CHOOSE to harm them.

[eissa]

57. Finally

a voice of reason to add to molly's and Heddi's. I was really getting alarmed at the amount of sympathy being alloted to a group of sick monsters (as you appropriately call them). Until you have been at the receiving end of such abuse and have been scarred for life from the experience, I'd say take your "sympathy" and shove it.

[Az]

69. For the record

The pity extends to their plight before they act on it. That is what they go through in this society. Act on it. Harm a child and my pity for them pretty much dries up.

The focus here is in dealing with a real problem. They exist. They are at odds with the rules of our society. They must be helped or they will hurt others.

[Muddleoftheroad]

79. There is no guarantee you can help them

You must lock them away till you can guarantee they won't hurt another child.

Note the word, guarantee.

[Az]

84. Guarantee me

you will not hurt a child.

Can't do it? We better lock you up.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. I have no history of doing so

I have not been convicted of anything.

They have.

No comparison at all.

[Az]

115. Topic

My topic was based on individuals with these urges and drives that have not acted upon them. It is my understanding based on your comments that they should be locked away to guarantee no child will be harmed. If this is not what you were trying to say then I appollogise.

For the record again. I am not saying that someone that harms a kid should be let go because of how horrible their situation is. If they cannot control their issues the society needs to defend itself from them. My comments have been about seeking to help these individuals before they act on their urges. The hostility directed towards this situation makes it incredibly difficult to find them and help them thus making the world more dangerous for children. The point of suggesting that we try to be more understanding is not just to make them feel better but to make it possible to save them as well as the children.

[Pithlet]

116. Those who have such urges,

if they felt they could go to someone for help without fear of being punished, might be more likely to seek that help. It might actually save children if we weren't so quick to punish people before they've actually committed a crime. If they don't seek the help they need, they will be more likely to commit a crime against a child in the future.

[Muddleoftheroad]

117. Perhaps we are talking past one another

This topic -- the whole topic -- have weaved all over the place.

I made my position clear in this thread that people who resist these drives are not criminals.

I think the question is where we draw the line. To me, those who are involved in kiddie porn are an active threat. Those who have fleeting fantasies and keep them there should not be prosecuted in any way. Every person on earth has a dark side. Keeping it in check is the issue.

I am more than happy to advocate treatment for anyone who wishes it. However, I don't see how we can do that without discovering some such people pose an actual risk and must be locked away. And that is bound to hinder the program.

If we had available counseling, undoubtedly some who would attend would have either committed crimes or be planning them. If that information came out, the counselors would be obliged to inform police.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. You have a point, and as a side effect of that point...

...people who have the "urge" but never act on it shouldn't be vilified. (See post #38 and then #69)

Also, what do you make of the "vigilante glee" the original post mentioned? Or frankly_fedup2's story at post #49?

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. People have all sorts of urges

Most of us keep a lot locked up in those brains of ours. What we lock up and don't do should not convict us. That falls under the heading of freedom of choice or free will.

Now, of course, by act I mean pursue the fantasy. A wannabe pedophile who looks at kiddie porn is indeed acting.

I don't blame anyone for "vigilante glee." Someone who harms a child commits a monstrous act. Heaven help them. I sure will not.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

86. Two questions

What about the third subject -- frankly_fedup2's story at post #49?

And for homework: depict a punishment you would consider excessive for a child molester.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. It is a sad tale

Nevertheless, the son committed what many would call statutory rape. How sorry am I to feel for a many who has sex with an underage girl? No, it was NOT consensual. Minors cannot consent to sex with adults.

Depicting punishment demands a crime. Give me the specifics of a crime.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. Thank you, your response satisfied me a lot

Although not in the way you'd like. frankly_fedup2, have at him!

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. Too bad

There is no excuse for adults having sex with minors -- nor can it ever be consensual. Yes, age of consent varies from state to state. So do many laws.

[DrWeird]

98. funny how the right thing

changes from state to state.

Oh well. Render on to Caesar...

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. No, the right thing stays the same

The LAW changes from state to state.

In any place, adults should not prey on minors.

[DrWeird]

102. Ah, so you DO recognize a difference.

Yet you still believe it is right for FranklyFedup's state to stick electrodes on her son's dick and force him to watch child pornography, yet it's not right for Viriginia to do the same.

Makes perfect sense.

[Muddleoftheroad]

103. Does that work?

I have no idea so I can't say. No matter what, I won't believe it 100% guaranteed.

[Pithlet]

106. The law can and does recognize degrees.

There is a difference between two young people having non-forced sex when one or both are under the age of consent, and an adult praying on unconcerning children. The law should recognize that degree, and not treat a 21 year old having sex with a 16 year old the same way it would treat someone over the age of 18 finding anyone younger to forcibly victimize.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. Age gap

Here, the age gap was a junior or senior in COLLEGE having sex with probably a sophomore in high school. That's fairly predatory. Since we only know the defense side of the story, it's hard to judge why they felt him so much of a predator. However, it's fairly easy to guess.

[Pithlet]

113. It's not always predatory

16 is junior year. While they may not be of a legal age to consent, 16 year olds often have sex, usually with other teenagers. Hormones are raging. 21 is not that far out of the age rage for it to have been not of a predatory nature. I'm not saying it should be legal for a 21 year old to have sex with a 16 year old. But, unless it was forced against their will, I don't put it on the same level as straight out rape. And I don't put it on the same level as an adult raping a child. Therefor, I do not believe they should be punished in the same way.

A 35 year old forces a 12 year old to perform a sex act. A 19 year old has non-forced sex with a 16 year old. Which do you think is more reprehensible?

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. Predatory

Sorry, a 21-year-old having sex with a 16-year-old looks fairly predatory to me. Yes, there are degrees in all this, of course. There are degrees in everything.

However, let's get one thing clear. Minors can't consent to sex with adults. It is NEVER consent.

Yes, it might not be violent rape, but it could be rape nonetheless.

[Pithlet]

119. From a legal standpoint

I agree. Limits do have to be set somewhere. But I don't think it is always of a predatory nature. A 21 year old meets someone who is younger, but looks and acts very much like an adult. He forms an attraction that is mutually shared by the younger person. They both really dig each other. If he is aware that she is not of legal age, then he should not have sex with her, or he should face legal consequences. However, I do not think his actions are predatory in the same sense as someone actively seeking out someone who has no interest in them, and forcing them, and should not be lumped in the same category.

Edited to add that I feel the same way regardless of the sex of the parties involved.

[lolly]

129. Punishment needs to fit crime

For Pete's sake, can't we realize there are degrees of "predatory?"

The mother of the 21 y.o. admitted her son had done something wrong--do you really think the punishment she described is appropriate for a 21 y.o. having non-forced sex with a 16 y.o?

Is it really that difficult to separate that act from the repeated, forced sodomizing of a 9 year old?

Don't start screaming DO YOU HAVE KIDS, DO YOU HAVE KIDS because I have 4, including 2 teenaged girls. If a 21 year old had sex with one of them, I certainly would want him punished. I would expect him to serve some probation time, perhaps perform community service, and perhaps get some counselling and a competent evaluation to ascertain that he wasn't a serial predator, but repeated electroshocks or whatever to his penis???? Forcing him to look at kiddie porn? THAT is weird, sick, and overly vengeful. And it's not solving any problems or preventing any future crimes.

And as upset as I would be about my daughter in this situation, I would hope I wouldn't get hysterical. Having sex at 16 isn't a fabulous idea, but is it really the end of the world? Did the victim get pregnant, or get a communicable disease? Did she seem at all traumatized?

Furthermore, I think when we react to the statutory rape cases with such hysteria, we trivialize the truly horrific cases--the grown men who forcibly rape young children. We have to distinguish between the two types of crimes because one IS so much worse than the other.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

132. Cheers #1 for you

:yourock:

[shimmergal]

130. Only by definition (which changes with the swing of the pendulum)

a 21-year-old having consensual sex with a 16-year-old be considered
necessarily predatory.

In fact, this was the preferred pattern for mating and marriage until fairly recently. When I was in college (late 50s) it was unexceptional; there were even married student couples that fit this age description. And no, the younger (almost always the female) did not suffer any bad consequences from it, unless she stopped her education prematurely because of marriage or children being born.
Yes, time and mores change but there's not much reason behind this one. IMO, we've scapegoated these relationships as a proxy for the disapproval that used to be aimed at all non-marital sex.

Real pedophiles are different, they prey on pre-pubertal children. Or they're 30ish or beyond and turned on by the "innocence" of the same or the very recently post-pubertal. There's _no_ way you can equate the young man whose situation was described with a real pedophile.

Ideally, no kids would have "real sex" until after the high school years. But that isn't going to come about. There's no proof that a 16-year-old girl is harmed any more by having sex with a gentle and well-meaning 21-year-old than with a 16-year-old boy. It may even go the other way, as almost no 16-year-old males are capable of thinking much outside of the "ME" box yet.

Not a PC position, I know. But true nonetheless. If by definition a teenager can't be in a "consensual" relationship, how can she consent to obtaining birth control or abortion? Or even to having her ears pierced?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

133. And cheers #2 for you (only because lolly answered first)

:yourock:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

114. Level of education isn't age. 21 and 16 are. (nt)

[lolly]

137. Well, that depends

(On edit--just realized this will be far away from the post it's answering, which is #90--just so it doesn't seem to come out of left field.)

Many places have ages of consent that vary along with the age of the partner--for example, children between the ages of 15 and 17 cannot be considered to legally consent to sex with anyone more than 2 years older than they are.

This actually makes sense to me--a 15 y.o. girl having sex with a 17 y.o. boy shouldn't result in jail time for anyone--but it does emphasize the huge grey area here. And while the intentions are good, the limits are always going to be a bit arbitrary, so there should be room for latitude.

I wish we'd get rid of the whole "Zero Tolerance" mantra and realize that, just as smoking a few joints every weekend is NOT the same thing as mainlining heroin, and bringing a bread knife to school is NOT the same as bringing an UZI, statutory sex is not the same as forced rape or pedophilia.

[uncle ray]

46. there is nobody "defending" pedophiles here

"Over the past couple years of cruising Portland Chat for pedophiles, I've been called a freak, a pervert, a cop, and a million other things. I've been threatened, cussed out, and stalked. But you know what? This is the most fun I've ever had in my life. "

look at what that fucker said. the point is, isn't he in the same league as those he is trying to catch? what exactly is he saying in these chat rooms, to be called a freak, pervert, a cop? he is leading on the pedophiles in a public environment, and if he happens to chase the wrong person...what happens?

they catch pedophiles by posing as pedophiles, they do the exast same thing. hell, they tell us how they do it!

i might go so far as to say that their techniques might actually encourage pedophiles, part of pedophiles must be the forbidden thing, and the risk...add the challenge to the game that you gotta play games and use innuendos because the "kid" on the other end might be a cop.

the efforts being made to catch peds. should be more behind the scenes, or passive.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

120. And now, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to make the $1,000,000 question

For parents:

Would you feel safe leaving your child with one of those "catchers"? Come on, they are the GOOD guys, ain't they?

Sorry, not me. No way in hell. These people have "psycho" written all over them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

121. How ridiculous

I knew one of those "psychos" a few years ago in one of my fantasy sports leagues. He worked for the police. He was assigned a job of catching pedophiles on the Internet. He had no particular knowledge of the subject matter or anything else. He simply did his job, just like any other assignment.

He had to learn to be a young girl. That was his job. He had to pretend to be a young girl and go online and wait for the pervs. It's amazing how fast they found him.

Would I trust him with a child of mine? Of course.

You paint a world where those who put away monsters are equally monstrous. It ain't so.

It's like saying all vice cops are hookers or all DEA agents are crack dealers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. Please point where I said "equally". Pretty please. (nt)

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. You paint the law enforcers as monsters

Do you deny this?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. YES I DO DENY IT. Sheesh, how predictable.

From your reasoning, if I see two unsavory characters, there's no way one can be MORE unsavory than the other. And I never called them "monsters". Your ability to read unwritten words is truly uncanny.

[Muddleoftheroad]

135. Your words

"And now, ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to make the $1,000,000 question

For parents:

Would you feel safe leaving your child with one of those "catchers"? Come on, they are the GOOD guys, ain't they?

Sorry, not me. No way in hell. These people have "psycho" written all over them."


You called them psycho and are denying "monster." Whatever.

There are two characters, a monstrous scumbag who seeks to prey on little children. And then there are the people who hunt them down. Yeah, THAT'S unsavory.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

141. See post #140 (nt)

[lolly]

136. He was doing his job

As you say, he was assigned a job and he was doing it. Sounds as if he was doing it in a professional manner--no entrapment, enticing people who might otherwise not be tempted, etc.

It sounds like the original 'perv-catcher' was not "just doing his job." It did sound as if he got a kick out of pretending to be a girl, leading the "pervs" on, etc. He sounded obscenely gleeful about it.

Years ago I knew a guy who wanted to be a police officer. He told my mother once that he used to get a kick out of going to the jail just to see the criminals locked up. Fortunately, he didn't make it into the force--he failed the psycholoogical evaluation, as well he should have. We put criminals in jail to punish them and to keep them off the streets, not for our amusement. Can you see the difference?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

140. Good point -- seems I wasn't clear making the distinction

Impersonating children in order to arrest child molesters, per se, is a legitimate police M.O. The protagonist of the original post, on the other hand, is seriously f***ed-up, and my "$1,000,000 question" assessment stays.

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. Actually, he's just got an axe to grind

and has gone too far to the the point of vigilante justice. Why he feels this way, we don't know. Very likely either was a victim or knew folks who were.

Sorry, can't muster any sympathy for the pedophiles he is victimizing either. I wouldn't leave my kids with him, but then again, I wouldn't leave them with you either.

I don't know either of you.

[forgethell]

37. the besst way to help the pedophile

is to make 100% certain that he never has access to another child.

[OneBlueSky]

41. um . . . let's make a distinction here . . .

betwen pedophiles and child abusers . . . they are not one and the same . . . the suffix "-phile" means, roughly, "an attraction to" . . . as in "audiophile" . . . it does not mean "abuser of" . . .

now I know this will come as a shock, but not all pedophiles are child molesters . . . there are those who, though they have an attraction to children, never ever act on that attraction . . . in my years on this planet, I've met more than one who I consider to be fine, upstanding individuals who would never consider harming a child . . .

anyone who would abuse a child is the worst kind of scum . . . but not all pedophiles do that . . . and that's all I have to say about that topic . . . flame away if you must . . .

[Zero Gravitas]

52. Good Point

People should not be condemned for what goes on in their heads, it is what they do about that is important. I've read that many of those who do abuse children are not necessarily sexually attracted to them, it is about power and children are weaker than adults so they make easier victims. So yes a pedophile is not necessarily a danger to children, and a child abuser is not necessarily a pedophile.

However there can never be any excuse or mitigation for abusing a child no matter what the motivation or prior experiences of the abuser is. None whatsoever.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. Is it just me who thinks...

...these people have concocted the perfect excuse for having a stash of kiddie porn in their computers and not get busted for it? Also, they are the Anointed Ones who have the right to look for more on the Net and elsewhere. It's part of the, ahem, job!

For one thing, this is one job I would NOT have the stomach to do. Why, I ask, they DO have the stomach? Might it be more than stomach?

Call me :tinfoilhat: if you like.

[DrWeird]

58. Every now and then

you read about the cop who got caught taking child porn home from work.

[TacticalPeek]

48. Mercy is wasted.

http://www.vachss.com/

[TexasMexican]

56. I have no problem with this site.

From the ones I've read, there is no entrapment here, because they arent arresting anyone. No one is being beaten or having thier rights violated.

BooHoo, so some child molestors get scared by some big mean men when they thought they were going to have sex with underage kids.

If it scares some of them enough that they never do it again, or atleast gives them some second thoughts before they go out to molest kids then its worth it.

Childmolesting should be a dangerous activity.

[EV1Ltimm]

65. "This is the most fun I've ever had in my life."

I took psychology in high school, so psychologists around the world tremble in the wake of my corpulence...

BUT...

It's one thing to do it out of a feeling of civic duty and to rid the streets of pedophiles, but to do it habitually over the course of years just to get a thrill or have fun? I'm worried about the person carrying out such deeds. Will he just give up when he gets tired of it or will he move on to continually more extreme acts against said pedophiles?

But i guess what i'm trying to say is that this may be an indication of some deeper psychological issues the person needs to deal with.

[Must_B_Free]

72. Yes - that's what I'm saying

and the facists cops entrapping people so they can play football with their heads are doing it because those are the values they worship - strength and brutality - never mind that the guy wasn't a threat. It makes them feel good to bash someone's face into the pavement. The guy is getting a thill out of it - never mind that the perp wasn't a threat anyway...

and some of our own special forces are undoubtedly going around killing Iraqis indiscriminantly for fun because those are the values they worship.

This is where I say the danger is - in the legitimization of this in our culture through COPS, etc... These murder TV shows are nothing more than soft core murder pornography for people who are into that brain chemical. The Lifetime Network - "Television for people who love to envision themself being victimized."

[Pithlet]

95. Children have to be protected.

A child's right to not be molested trumps a pedophiles right. While I feel sorry for someone who has such an affliction, the moment they act on it, they're freedom is gone, and so is my pity. I do think they should be prevented from ever having access to children, ever again. I am, of course, talking about true pedophiles, and not teenagers having sex with each other.

Having said that, I have a problem with vigilantism, because it so often ensnares people who are actually innocent. I don't have a problem with the legal system dealing with pedophiles so they never heart another child.

[leesa]

123. Hard to tell...but I can only imagine the sick things that happen in

Asscroft's private life.

[philosophie_en_rose]

126. Pedophilia is much worse than being a vigilante.

To rape a child is far more disgusting than to target the monsters that prey upon children.

I don't care if pedophiles were molested as children. I am sorry that they were hurt and that they never received help. However, they make a choice to abuse children. They can make a choice to get treatment for the trauma, if that's what you believe causes pedophilia.

The glee of the vigilantes is disturbing, but it's far better to turn energy into removing pedophiles from society than it is to sexually assault children.

There is no question. Even if the people at these websites are out of control, the worst that they can do will never be worse than raping children.

[PaDUer]

127. Answer to the question-freepers. n/t

[Fla_Democrat]

142. Pedophiles

Talk about a no-brainer.

[Malva Zebrina]

147. WHo is more perverted the Pedophiles or the people trying to catch them?

No one is more perverted than pedophiles--period

That there happen to be thousands who are priests is another quetion--who is more perverted-the pedophile Catholic priests or those who brought it to our attention and to the attention of all parents who priviously would have trusted their parish priest with their children.

Pedophiles are perverted. There is little therapy that would reverse this perversion. That has been shown to be true in the Catholic priests who were perverts who were shifted here and there after some therapy and who simply reverted back to the same perversions.

Does anyone really understand the innocence of a child in these cases? A child is trusting and innocent. IN the case of a priest the child is even more trusting because that priest has the sanction of the parents as a trustworthy individual. And it was, sinfully, covered up.

If that is not outrageous behaviour, actually criminal behavior that NO ONE will be prosecuted for, is incredible.

There are some in our society who will be allowed to get away with criminal behavior. So far, in this year, we can bet it will be Ken Lay, and the CAtholic hierophants in charge of protecting the pedophiles.

And what else do we have that is corrupted?