Question from a Norwegian: Is Scandinavia an ideal?

[KurtNilsen]

First of all. I am here because I love the UsA. I lived in Boulder for a couple of years, and that was a great place. The whole world is now holding its breath, that you will get rid of GWB. You all probably know why.

But I have another question: What do you think of Sweden, Norway and Denmark and our welfare states. Is this something the progressives in the US would like to strive towards? It is kind of weird in Norway. Our Republican (Conservative party) is probably way left of John Kerry. :-)

[Skittles]

1. I'm half Norwegian

I think the perception is that Scandinavia is sort of an ideal but the truth is we Americans don't really know that much about Scandinavia. :)

[KurtNilsen]

4. Hey good evening to you ;-)

Well in Norway, there is free healthcare to everyone. Free education for all. Very strict environmental codes. Our financial minister is gay. If you need a house, the government will rent you one... (I know, I needed one for half a year a few years ago.) We do have some homeless, but they choose to because of drugs. We probably have a problem with drugs... How do you deael with people who want to self destruct?

[DrWeird]

20. What's the catch? Sounds like paradise.

I'm sure the problems with drugs there are nothing compared to the concentration camps we've got over here.

[indigo32]

2. I'm half Norwegian

and while I've never been there my mother has... and from her description I would be happy to see the smaller disparities in wealth (big time difference from what I understand)...and Universal Healthcare, ect... that exist there.

[KurtNilsen]

10. It has been very good.

But, it does seem that because of globalisation we are also adapting. Even though we're not part of the EU we still have to adapt to every rule they make to keep them from imposing sanctions.

[Faygo Kid]

37. Half Norwegian, half Swedish here.

Never cultivated a taste for lutefisk, but give me a herring sandwich on hardtack with egg and onion, and a cold beer, every time.

[FloridaPat]

3. I'm holding my breath too. I can't believe half the population

if for this guy.

As for your other question. You folks have done a good job. Lots of education for everyone. Is Finland in that list too? I was there a few years ago. Unemployment was 35% I think.

The "welfare state" is a great idea on paper. There are a lot of people that would take advantage of the system and the taxes needed to support it are very big. However, we have a need for a defense budget, which you folks I don't believe need. We have fifty states which act like 50 countries. Someone always seems to get left out. We also have a very mixed population, so each group has their own wants and needs. If push came to shove, I would rather pay high taxes for "welfare state" than a "war fare state" like we are doing now.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. Well you can't compare defense needs. Norway for instance does not

put a high priority on killing people in other countries in order to expropriate their natural resources to make rich Norwegians richer.

Instead, they prefer to spend their money on keeping their population housed, fed, healthy and educated, which as any Halliburton executive will tell you, is just plain stupid.

With all the money Norway wins on healthcare alone, they could easily get a whole bunch of African oil, and help America reduce the population there, which is an important goal because of the rampant anti-American sentiment present in ungrateful native populations in the region.

[KurtNilsen]

12. You bring up a lot of good points.

Lots of people do take advantage of the system. But, in my opinion.... I would rather have welfare scoundrels than violent drug criminals...

[DavidDvorkin]

5. From what little I know about it, sounds good to me

So does Canada, for that matter, and it's far from the Scandinavian model.

For me, and I suspect for a lot of people on the left in this country, the U.S. has gone horribly off the tracks. That makes a lot of other places look like wonderful models right now.

Actually, that was true even before America went off the tracks. But it all feels so much more urgent now.

[cryofan]

6. can you tell us more about Norway's social welfare policies and taxes

One reason American is so backwards is that we are not aware of how other countries structure their systems.

Can you tell us what would happen to a single able bodied 30 year old man who quit his job and then ran out of money 6 months later? Could be receive government assistance? How much assistance, what kind, and for how long?

Also, suppose he had a job paying US$20,000; how much would be pay in taxes of all kinds? What about a job paying US$40K? US$70K?

Thanks!

[brokensymmetry]

7. I think they're good ideals.

I like the idea of adjusting traffic fines to the violator's income!

[distortionmarshall]

8. scandy is kewl but....

.... probably not awfully relevant as a model for america....

(1) scale - america's population so dwarfs those of the scandinavian countries... there's substantial reason to believe that programs/institutions that funtion well on a norway-scale wouldn't scale to american size....

(2) homogeneity - the scandanavian countries are largely on racial group. clearly that affords massive simplifications not available to america. america has yet to deal with native american genocide, and black racism...

(3) historical isolation - (i'm not clear on how true this is; please consider it to be conjecture) - america's history is riddled with massive infusions and influences from every corner of the globe, by contrast (?) with the scandinavian countries.

etc....

All in all, the scandinavian countries are clearly exemplary countries in things like education level, crime, general happiness, and the like. While these goals are perfectly appropriate for america, there are massive differences in circumstances between america and scandinavia - and these differences probably require america to achieve these proper goals in a way different from how scandinavia did.

that's my feeling, at any rate...

[chookie]

11. Times are pretty crazy here

Welcome to DU, Kurt! :hi:

America seems to be living through one of its periodic episodes of social pathology, and discussion of just about anything can be a little off the wall and distorted.

Right wing America despises Scandinavia, which it decries as morally permissive and bad bad bad socialism. (Living here, you must be aware that even someone as conservative as Bill Clinton is regarded as a fire-breathing Commie For sane Americans, Scandinavia demonstrates how liberal social ideas and programs do not result in crime, social decadence, and economic chaos -- as the right wing loves to tell us is going to happen to us if we are tolerant of our fellow human beings.

AT this point, we are falling so far behind in terms of social progress that we have a long way to go before a serious examination of Scandinavia's social safety network can be made. Our current leaders seem to want to return us to the anteBellum 19th century, which they seem to think represents "normality."

Most of the people I know admire Dennis Kucinich, who is the only real progressive candidate in government today, but few are prepared to support him, as right wing propaganda has done so much to discredit forms of government left of facism. Gee, these days you are considered a commie rascal America hater simply if you protest the fact that your job benefits, like health insurance and pensions, are cut, or if you have to accept a pay cut.

We are grateful for the support we have gotten from Scandinavia. The protests you had when His Chimperial Majesty visited were wonderful! We are grateful that you are paying attention to what is going on here. Many of us are working very hard to make sure that Bush will not continue his bizarre reign. Thanks for hanging in there with us!

I think it may be decades

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Affluent whites would never permit health care and housing for

ethnic minorities which are considered undesirable.

It is demonstrably more supportive of business interests to subsume these populations into the criminal justice system, keeping America's growing and dynamic prison industry a perennial investor favorite!

[Name removed]

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[chookie]

13. Times are pretty crazy here

Welcome to DU, Kurt! :hi:

America seems to be living through one of its periodic episodes of social pathology, and discussion of just about anything can be a little off the wall and distorted.

Right wing America despises Scandinavia, which it decries as morally permissive and bad bad bad socialism. (Living here, you must be aware that even someone as conservative as Bill Clinton is regarded as a fire-breathing Commie For sane Americans, Scandinavia demonstrates how liberal social ideas and programs do not result in crime, social decadence, and economic chaos -- as the right wing loves to tell us is going to happen to us if we are tolerant of our fellow human beings.

AT this point, we are falling so far behind in terms of social progress that we have a long way to go before a serious examination of Scandinavia's social safety network can be made. Our current leaders seem to want to return us to the anteBellum 19th century, which they seem to think represents "normality."

Most of the people I know admire Dennis Kucinich, who is the only real progressive candidate in government today, but few are prepared to support him, as right wing propaganda has done so much to discredit forms of government left of facism, and he is considered "unelectable". Gee, these days you are considered a commie rascal America hater simply if you protest the fact that your job benefits, like health insurance and pensions, are cut, or if you have to accept a pay cut.

We have to face a propaganda machine of incredible viciousness and ruthlessness -- it is very difficult to have a reasoned discourse on many matters these days. America is so polarized now.

We are grateful for the support we have gotten from Scandinavia. The protests you had when His Chimperial Majesty visited were wonderful! We are grateful that you are paying attention to what is going on here. Many of us are working very hard to make sure that Bush will not continue his bizarre reign. Thanks for hanging in there with us!

I think it may be decades

[DuctapeFatwa]

15. Basically, Kurt, the US is a nation born of genocide, suckled on slavery

and weaned on apartheid, a neo-feudalist corporate oligarchy where a small percentage of the population, generally the top 20-25% income tier, votes.

The US would rather spend a dollar to kill a child than a dime to feed one, and affluent taxpayers don't mind paying a little extra if it means the poor, especially the non-white poor, will suffer a little more.

Poverty is viewed as God's way of sorting out the wheat from the chaff, and medical treatment, food and housing are all commercial products just like DVD players or lipstick.

Americans are proud to live in a country where everyone has the freedom to purchase all of any of these commodities they can afford.

The nation is currently transitioning to a military dictatorship, and if everything goes according to plan, should be difficult for the casual visitor to distinguish from Rwanda within the decade.

[Name removed]

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[KurtNilsen]

16. Thanks to all for answering.

But as a good norskie, I am no just about to head dontown for a few beers...I will do my best to answer your questions later.

[RainDog]

18. What I like about Scandinavia

Lars Von Triers and his acolytes.

Fanny and Alexander, one of the greatest movies about families and children ever.

Your progressive approach to energy, to human rights in your own country, to community.

I do not think that America will ever follow a Scandanavian model because there are too many people here who hate each other. Maybe if our nation is destroyed economically, but even then I don't think so, as long as the fundies are here...

...so how did you tame all your Calvinists, anyway?

I'd like to know about your windmills and other renewable energy initiatives, and I'd like to know if someone in your country would like to invest in my city to be an example of small scale energy independence.

Long ago I was in Copenhagen and spent a little time in Malmo. They were beautiful, the people were very friendly and kind.

I remember I told this man who was working at the hotel where I was staying (I was just graduated) that it was amazing...he didn't look old, even though he was thirty! :)

He told me it was because he had a beard and kept a little weight on himself. LOL.

actually, I had meant it as a compliment, but I was a kid.

Now I am well on the other side of thirty, and I'm surprised at how stupid I was. oh well.

the open face sandwiches were good too, btw.

I think it would be hard to cope, for me, with the long winters, but the long summer days would be bliss.

[TahitiNut]

17. I'm half (2nd generation) Norwegian and 100% Viking ...

... and if it weren't for the cold weather (I've been Californicated) and my hugely deficient language skills, I'd migrate to suburban Olso (or Bergen) in a nanosecond. Denmark would be my 2nd choice, but I have family (many, many cousins) in Norway.



oh ... "100% Viking" you ask? Well, my father's side is lowland Scots-Irish. ;-) (You know... all that "rape and plunder" stuff.) ;-)

[AgadorSparticus]

19. Just my little opinion on the current system...

As trying as our welfare system is on allowing abuse, I think we are crying over crumbs. The loss in welfare abuse is measely compared to the corporate tax frauds that steal BILLIONS from the government. They get their republican friends to make crap laws enabling them to get away with not paying what they should. And who gets stuck with the bill? The middle class. It's been an ongoing process but with the help of the media, we are still focused on the welfare abusers, the chump change instead of the pile of gold.

Having said that, I do believe it is important for a society to have a system that does not promote leeches. Personal dignity, pride, and self respect are just as important to foster as safe sex, prenatal care, and education. The pediatric and geriatric populations should have blanket coverage. Everyone else needs to get up off their ass and work. Disabled? To what extent? WHat can you do or not do? There are always tasks to complement the disability. Have kids? Daycare will be provided. No excuses. But EVERYONE MUST contribute to their public assistance to the degree of their capacity. Even if it means being a daycare provider, visiting nursing homes, feeding the homeless or picking up trash. I think the majority of people, if they can get away with something, will usually try. It is the system's responsibility to implement boundaries and establish regulatory agencies. There should always be accountability--whether it is the system, its designers, or its users.

aaahh, I feel better now. Ok, I'll step down from my soapbox.

[RainDog]

29. People in this country need a freaking living wage

how many people work multiple jobs in this country..or have two people working jobs which earn less than one job earned, compared to cost of living, in the past?

I am SICK of the assumption that people are not working, and working hard in this country if they can find a job.

The problem isn't that people don't want to work. The problem is that the jobs you recommend do not pay enough for people to even pay basic rent, much less food, or any other "luxuries."

And that's one person. If that person has lost a decent job and ends up with a "service wage" job, and they have children, how do you think that impacts a person's well-being, stress level, ability to focus on their children??

Please stop repeating the bullshit of the Newt Gingrich's of the world.

[AgadorSparticus]

35. I'm not saying all people don't want to work. Not by far.

But I am saying there are those that DO NOT want to work. They do nothing but suck off of society. THEY DO EXIST and in great numbers. Maybe not where you are, but I lived in South Texas and I've seen it for my own eyes. It's beyond an epidemic. It's a culture. It is transgenerational issue. They have no intention of ever working. They have 5 kids and are barely 21. They will continue to pop out kids because they want more monthly income. And at 21, do you think that money is going towards the kids? They are out partying while gramma takes care of the kids. We also see mexican nationals coming over to give birth so that they can apply for welfare--and get it. We see 18 yr olds with 3 kids and on disability because they are "a little depressed". I told this couple to get in line--99.99% of Americans are depressed or anxious about something. But we go to work regardless. We see people in their 40's, dripped in diamonds and driving beamers pay with food stamps. I worked in the ER and it pisses me off to no end that my elderly in laws who have worked their entire lives and paid a shitload of taxes, are afraid to get sick because they can't afford it. Yet the mexican nationals come over and get the best of healthcare on our dime. I've seen people on medicare/medicaid call 911 so that they can get a ride via ambulance to the ER because they don't want to pay for a taxi. To give you an idea, a simple ride to the ER on an ambulance is $500 (tax dollars, that is--and that's without any interventions at all). The problem I have is that while these tics of society deplete our resources, I see elderly people who HAVE worked their entire lives, get the shaft. THAT pisses me off. But knowing that these discrepancies exists, I do not advocate throwing the baby out with the bathwater because, on the same token, I also see the people who do need and rely on the system.

I have family that are college educated with years of experience who can't get a professional job. I understand that you can't raise a family of 4 on micky D's income. And I think that's an entirely different issue altogether.

[Name removed]

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[RainDog]

27. Who in his or her right mind thinks it's free?

there is more than one way to approach these issues.

why should corporations hold employees hostage by being the ones who administer health insurance?

if health insurance were not tied to an employer, how many more entrepreneurs who also have to consider their family responsiblities would be able to do things which overbloated bureaucracies known as corporations cannot?

why should America allow the richest of the rich in this country to destroy democracy by destroying the middle class via the economic policies of last thirty years?

Taxes for infrastructure, for public education, for health care are investments in democracy.

To privatize all functions in a nation is to become a fascist state, or an oligarchy.

America does not have to imitate any other nation. We can look at the examples of our own past, the trust busting of Teddy Roosevelt, the necessary intervention to rebuild a nation destroyed by the grandparents of the same greedy fucks who are destroying our nation now.

Corporations are not people and should not have the same rights.

Offshore corporations should be treated as foreign entities.

Stockholders are not the only important factions of biz, and those who work deserve as much recognition as "capital" rather than an expense, as the shareholders do.

What is happening to America right now is the destruction of the very foundations of our govt because democracy DOES NOT EXIST without a middle class....read up on history...the rise of democracy is tied to the rise of a middle class.

So where do your loyalities lie, with our democracy, or with a corporate (i.e. fascist) state?

[Name removed]

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[cryofan]

33. we the people define "theft"

No one else has that right. I say tax the HELL out of the rich so that we the people can have universal healthcare paid completely by taxation, and we can have generous welfare payments.

Why work so hard? Life is short!

The idea behind social democracies is the PEOPLE use capitalism, instead of the greedheads using people to fatten their wallets. Capitalism is good because it is a way for the people to harvest the energies of the strivers, those who want to enhance their social status through work. The human animal, like all social animals, has, at times in its life, a strong drive to acheive higher social status, so as to better reproduce, etc.

And the human animal does not need to get 100% of the fruits of its labor. Just a small incremental advantage over its cohort is sufficient. This means that very high tax rates DO NOT stifle creativity or effort in a significant way. Yes, there are many people, who at times in their life, would rather not work, or would rather not work hard. But there are many people for whom the need for social status is so high, that they will work hard even if highly taxed. These people are of course blinded to their animal instincts, but that is their problem. :-)

Well, this was one of the problems of pure socialism: it did not realize this and take advantage of capitalism in order to better benefit the people.

[Jackpine Radical]

24. I'm of Danish and German ancestry, and think

that all of northern Europe has a healthier approach to issues of society and community than America does. My (Aalborg) Danish ancestors immigrated in the late 19th century and the Germans just before WWI, so they certainly picked good times to get out, but I think both Scandinavian and German society have transformed themselves in the intervening years and have become much more humane places to live.

Scandinavia (including Finland) and maybe Holland stand at the top of my personal list of societies worthy of emulating.

Still can't figure out what the Danes are doing with their Iraq stance, though. Bush must have bribed/threatened them pretty effectively.

Og willkommen til DU.

[Sufi Marmot]

25. I spent some time in Sweden recently...

One of my most interesting conversations was with a Polish emigre who was a small business owner. He came from Poland during the Communist regime, and was happy to be living in Sweden - his small business, run by himself and his wife, was profitable, his daughter was in college, and he had established a comfortable middle class existance for himself and his family.

His one complaint, however, was that he found it very hard to expand his business because of labor regulations in Sweden - he said that hiring new workers was an incredible financial liability because of Sweden's labor laws - I don't remember the exact specifics, but if I recall correctly, the gist of it was if he hired someone who turned out to be unreliable, who failed to show up or was an alcoholic, he would have a hard time replacing him and would be financially responsible for him, even if he wasn't doing his job. I was somewhat surprised at this. Can any Swedes explain why this is the case?

-SM, who enjoyed Sweden immensely

[cryofan]

26. social democracies revolve around the needs of citizens...

...as opposed to the needs of capital and investors.

[Sufi Marmot]

31. I suppose so...

Although I found it surprising that because of the labor regulations, this citizen was reluctant to expand his business and hire new workers. I didn't understand why he couldn't get rid of an inadequate worker (who, ostensibly, would then be supported by the state), but rather had to keep them on and keep paying their salary even if they weren't doing their job.

It just seemed to me that the Swedish system, as he described it to me, was unfairly shifting the burden of an inadequate worker entirely onto the employee, rather than the state itself absorbing that burden and allowing the businessman to expand his business That is, in the best case scenario, the businessman could have hired someone, and if that worker wouldn't/couldn't do his job properly, the businessman could have replaced him and the unemployed worker would have been absorbed back into the state welfare system.

-SM

[cryofan]

32. I think that many enlightened Americans, those who are able to resist...

....the corporatist propaganda, are beginning to see that growing or enlarging corporations or businesses is NOT a good thing. Why on earth would we want to do so when we see how large corporations are able to manipulate the system, which although it may be "more efficient" in a strict, economic textbook" sense, it is NOT a Good Thing for enhancing the OVERALL quality of life of the citizens.

[Sufi Marmot]

34. This guy was a Small Business Owner...

Jeez...He had ONE store, providing a service that most civilized people would consider essential (he owned a coin-op laundromat, or Tvattomat for those who speak Swedish - it's not like he was selling tourist crap in the Gamla Stan...). Maybe he had so much business at his store that he would have liked to expand, had he been able to - both he and his wife worked full time there and I got the impression that if he had been able to hire additional workers and/or open a new store, both of them might have had more lesiure time. He had emigrated to Sweden, worked hard, played by the rules, payed his taxes, and enjoyed a middle class existance - he was about as uncorporatist as you can get.

I don't understand why this is a bad thing - despite their support of a welfare state, most Swedes certainly aren't averse to making money - and in Swden they certainly don't give goods and services away for free - trust me. I don't think they have a bad system there, but my impression was that it could probably be tweaked a bit to help small businessmen without reducing benefits from those who need state support.

-SM

[Kanary]

28. Living near Boulder, rather be in Scandinavia ^_^

Hi Kurt! :hi:

So glad you popped in for a chat! We've had a few people from Scandinavia from time to time, and I find it fascinating to learn more about your countries.

A while back, there was a fellow from Finland here, talking about the hours of the workweek there. Certainly makes a lot of sense to me to have a shorter work week, and more time for family. Also, he was talking about more vacation time, because the Fins believe it's important to travel. In fact, he was talking about available sabaticals so that people could periodically have the time to travel to further places. They value travel as an educational way to learn more about the world. I certainly appreciate their priorities!

He was talking about possibly setting up a forum for people who would like to talk about these issues, and I would *love* to see that happen. Do you have any interest in that?

I also want to say how much we here in the US have appreciated the support from the rest of the world in terms of protesting against the occupier of the White House. It has been soooo depressing, and to know that we have the support of others around the globe means so much to us, and we thank you! Please, do not let up the pressure..... the more the rest of the world expresses their displeasure, the more chance we have of getting rid of the squatter in the White House. Hopefully we can return the favor in a better way. :)

Kanary

[porkrind]

36. Kurt, Welcome to DU !!!

:toast:

I Wish I was there. :) From what little I know, it seems Scandinavian is much better that what we have in the U.S. You must think the U.S. is a bizarre, tragic train wreck. I agree.

The U.S. is currently a fascist corporate welfare state, pervasively corrupt, militaristic, isolationist, and oppressive to its fearful citizens. Our media has sold their integrity to their corporate masters. Our civil liberties are being taken at every turn. Our education system is being undermined in an effort to dumb-down the populace into willing corporate servitude.

It's only getting worse. :wtf:

As technology, knowledge, and capital investment improve efficiency and productivity and therefore wealth production, all the benefit goes to corporations with none left over for the citizens. The rich get richer and the poor work harder and get poorer. The middle class is being crushed out of existence. :scared:

Our uncaring representatives in government do not act in our behalf, but instead prostrate themselves before their corporate idols. They purposefully keep us distracted with bread and circus while they steal us blind. :(