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WHY are repukes saying that "gay marriage should be left up to the people"

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:17 PM
Original message
WHY are repukes saying that "gay marriage should be left up to the people"
and also certain repukes making comments about "the rule of law"?

Witness:

It wasn't until May 1954 that racial segregation was banned in American public schools. And as late as fall of 1957, President Eisenhower had to send in troops to enforce this. In 1971 the U.S. Supreme Court ordered forced busing in an attempt to achieve racial desegregation.

Shouldn't desegregation be up to the people, and not the courts?

What's the difference?

The people can be wrong, especially when they cower behing "the rule of law" to keep their hate from forcibly being terminated, pun very damn well intended.

I have nothing but praise to the judges who may have gone against their own beliefs and stand up for the truth.

Period.
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Cptn Kirk Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. Mob rule
You NEVER let the mob vote in civil rights matters so that the courts/legsilature/executive may be overruled. If this had been allowed during the civil rights movement we may still have segregation.

It is a fundamental principle of democracy to protect the minority. If we allow the majority to restrict the rights of the minority FOR NO OTHER REASON than that they don't like them then we are no longer a free society.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Welcome to DU!
Well said!

:yourock:

(love your username too! ;-) )
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reddouglasfir Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well if a national vote to legalize gay marraige was held....
it would pass overwhelmingly.

Sure some areas like Idaho and Alaska will be dragged along kicking and screaming but I welcome a national vote.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Welcome to DU too!
I've seen a lot of polls; half of which say gay civil unions/marriage/etc would pass.

But the other half show that it would not pass. Overwhelmingly.

:-(
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reddouglasfir Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Thanks
Well I welcome a national vote anyway.

If our country is homophobic I want to know.

And it doesn't have to pass overwhelmingly.

51% will do fine.
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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. It's just the term "marriage" that's the stumbling block.
We're rapidly approaching the point where quite a majority -- all but entrenched homophobes -- support civil unions.

Of course I know that gays -- many of them, at least -- think the term itself is worth fighting for.

In both cases, it's all about validation. Gays see the "marriage" word as proving validation and personal acceptance of them; many married hets feel that "marriage" having a more exclusive meaning validates and supports their own union.

I think we need to take the word "marriage" off the table entirely. It certainly was not conducive to most participants' equal rights (especially women's) until the last 2-3 decades. And as long as the state writes the "default contract" this could be true in the future too, whether in the same direction as the past or another way.

Yes, I know it would be slow work revising all the statutes to read "civil union" for marriage, but in the meantime there's no reason we have to give the word any power. (Churches could retain the term for their ceremonies and sacrament, of course.) In ordinary discourse, there are plenty of synonyms. Anybody for using
"matrimony"? Or "wedlock"? Personally I prefer the latter for the reason I mentioned above -- the state writes a contract that you're locked into unless you divorce -- but then I'm dubious about the institution anyway. The recent use of the term "married" for inantimate objects or ideas--like, "it was a stroke of genius to marry the romantic ideal to the property aspects of the institution," has further degraded the word.

OK, maybe I'm a kook about this. But it might help close the gap.

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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. I don't have cable
so all of the polls I have seen show people are against it.

Typical.

I hate news. They don't tell me the truth.
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Well put..
the Judiciary exists to protect the rights of the minority, not the majority. I agree.
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I'm not so sure that it would
pass at all. But I would love a national vote as well.
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mp40 Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Right,,
Check the states that have already voted on "one man-one woman" the people have voted and spoke. By the way, Idaho is so far ahead of the curve, we do not have to worry about it.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Hi mp40!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. I wish that were true
But, remember the Fright Wing controls most of the media and has a lot of money to create fear - fear of Saddam, fear of gays, fear of anything not American, fear of terrorism. If it came to a national vote, you could expect a huge media blitz from the Religious Reich.
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Wishful thinking.
ALL polls show that about 66% of voters oppose gay marriage. Sorry, but that is a brutal fact.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Don't be so sure
Most of the population is apathetic. That is, they don't actively campaign for gay marriage, but they really see nothing wrong with it.

However, those people aren't likely to go out and vote FOR gay marraiges.


Meanwhile, although people like myself and others here would go out and vote for it, it still would not be enough to overcome the fanatical turnout of the religious reich.

This would really motivate and energize the hateful wing of the GOP (all of it, that is) and neoconservatives would vote in record numbers
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. I'm all for leaving it up to the people...
each individual to decide on their own if they want to be in a man/female or same sex marriage.

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Ohio Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Ding ding ding ding!!!
Now that's leaving it up to the people. That's what a democracy is supposed to be like. Majority rule supposed to be to elect representatives (including the President). Majority rule is not supposed to be used to decide who can go to college, who can marry who, and what religion we should all be.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
21. Religious institutions are violating the Constitution(s) when they...
attempt to force their beliefs into law and on the people.

What else would the ordained selected church impose on the population?

Everyone worship on Sunday?
Everyone pray at specific times?
Everyone be buried in a casket in a cemetery?
Everyone be required to pay taxes that would be used as tithing?
Everyone be required to be baptized in a church.
Everyone be required to have their marriage in a church and by a minister?
Everyone forbidden from drinking alcohol if the church dictates it?
Everyone required to send their children to a church run school?
Everyone required to submit their medical records to prove that they have not obtain any medical procedure that they consider against church law?
Everyone restricted on who they can marry or required to marry?
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Folks, get real! You don't put an issue involving civil rights to a vote!
If we did that we would more than likely have segregation still. Also we wouldn't have public defenders and so on because it would be voted down because it costs money and the people who need it are just scum anyway, right?

I think the repukes are very concerned about what the courts are doing and will do. This is why you hear that bullshit about "activists judges".

As to the "rule of law" as a paralegal they are talking about these initiatives and so on that were passed in California and other states, which supposedly witness the "will of the people". It all horseshit!

The only way that guy people are going to get their rights is to take it to the max and end up in court. A good equal protection under the law argument ought to carry a lot of weight.
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LeahMira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. Yes!!!
Bravo! Most excellent.

Civil rights aren't something we can vote on. We are equals, no matter who likes it or who doesn't.

As to the "will of the people" you are right on target. Sometimes the people are wrong. Laws help to ensure that we all don't keep making the same stupid mistakes over and over each time. Saves us all a lot of time and headaches in the long run.
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thebigthink Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. I suspect they've been reading the polls.
If you look at all the national polling on the issue, there's no clear consensus on whether marriage or domestic partnership for gay couples should be legal or illegal. There does, however, seem to be a definite bias toward the belief that the Federal government should stay the hell out of it. So if you're a Republican, why fight a battle it's in no way clear you would win and have take on the wrath of the state's rights crowd in your own party to boot?

I also imagine they're hoping that if they bide their time, the gay rights people will overreach and make it a national issue that they can use as a club to beat on Democrats with in the fall elections. Nobody wants to lay themselves open to charges of gay-bashing but rising to the defense of the sanctity of marriage if someone else forces the issue, now that's got to be attractive. If they managed to pick enough seats in the the Senate to ram a national ban through a filibuster attempt after the election when the coast is clear, they would probably go for it.
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foreigncorrespondent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. It is sad that...
...these idiots think themselves or other people can define what love is for a group of people.

Marriage is all about making the ultimate commitment to the one person in this world, that is your equal.

It is the merging of two souls, and two hearts into one. Are people to stupid to understand that?
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 01:12 AM
Response to Original message
14. because they think everyone is as bigoted and racist as they are
nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. "the rule of law" has an actual meaning
... and this is not it.

From the rather old Osborn's Concise Law Dictionary at my elbow:

rule of law The doctrine of English law expounded by Dicey, in Law of the Constitution, that all men are equal before the law, whether they be officials or not ..., so that the acts of officials in carrying out the behests of the executive government are cognizable by the ordinary courts and judged by the ordinary law ... .

The rule of law is what prevents special favours or privileges being granted by those in power to themselves or their friends or agents -- or special disadvantages being imposed on their enemies. No one is above the law is what it means, and its main practical effect is to counteract corruption -- the law "rules", people don't.

Generating commitment to the rule of law is central to efforts to build institutions in developing countries -- under the rule of law, and institutions that operate according to laws and established rules, rather than according to individuals' whims or prejudices and arbitrary decisions, societies can develop.

In French, the equivalent expression is l'état de droit -- a state that is under law.

For example, the Inter-American Democratic Charter (of the Organization of American States, i.e. the nations of the Americas) states:

http://www.oas.org/charter/docs/resolution1_en_p4.htm

Article 3

Essential elements of representative democracy include, inter alia, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, access to and the exercise of power in accordance with the rule of law, the holding of periodic, free, and fair elections based on secret balloting and universal suffrage as an expression of the sovereignty of the people, the pluralistic system of political parties and organizations, and the separation of powers and independence of the branches of government.

The rule of law is what LIMITS the things that GOVERNMENTS may do.

It is *NOT* a rule that says that INDIVIDUALS must do what the government says they are to do.

The rights that are set out in the US Constitution, for instance, are expressions of this "law" that is supposed to rule -- limits on government action. The courts are (despite recent nattering in this forum to the contrary) empowered to enforce those limits. And of course, one of the limits on government action in your constitution is that governments may not deny the equal protection of the law to anyone.

What these right-wingers are talking about is not law, it is order. (And on this, NBD's otherwise estimable Law & Order has it backwards.) The police are the forces of order, not of law -- what they do is law enforcement -- they are part of the executive branch of government, and carry out its instructions -- which promotes order.

The courts are the forces of law. They oversee the legality of what the executive does in applying the legislature's decisions (laws). In a constitutional democracy, if the executive attempts to enforce a law that is contrary to the higher law (the constitution, the embodiment of the rule of law) -- e.g. by having its agents who issue marriage licences refuse to issue them to same-sex couples, thereby violating the rule of law, governing by caprice rather than by constitution, making the individual rather than principle the basis on which the law applies -- it is the courts' job to rein it in.

The aim is, of course, a balance. Order could easily be achieved by force without bothering to make laws; on the other hand, without the executive having *some* recognized authority to enforce laws, there would be disorder and societal breakdown.

True civil disobedience occurs when that balance is not properly struck. When it is genuine, it is a disruption of order in the service of the rule of law. It is a rebellion against arbitrary action by the executive, which may or may not involve enforcing laws made by the legislature.

Judges who "may have gone against their own beliefs and stand up for the truth", where that truth is that the law that it is sought to enforce is contrary to the constitution -- is an arbitrary violation of individual rights -- are doing exactly what the rule of law requires them to do.

And people who conscientiously disobey those laws are promoting the rule of law, not "breaking" it.

The right-wing, as usual, and for its usual purposes -- maintaining order for its own benefit, at the expense of others' rights and freedoms -- has stated the exact reverse of the truth here.

.
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monarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Excellent post!!!
Edited on Sun Feb-22-04 07:05 AM by monarch
This needs much wider distribution. Any chance you could write an article?
On edit--maybe you could just post it in its own thread. Everyone needs to read this.
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kayell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I second that motion
Great post. Please post as a thread of it's own.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-22-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. thank you, thank you very much

I just don't know what the right place for me to post it would be ... here in GD?

Tomorrow, maybe, when the week starts up. Maybe I'll even see whether I can, um, edit it. ;)

.
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