Is killing animals as bad as killing people?

[Robin Hood]

I think so, and the same penalties should apply for both. What do you think?

On Edit: Let me be more clear. I believe that due to our brains we are entrusted with the gift of care takers of the earth. Killing to prevent disease is part of our responsibility. I am interested in up holding our role as care takers, and believe that torture of animals for pleasure should carry the same consequences as that of people.

[K-W]

1. No,

I am a person. I need to put some limit to my empethy before I start mourning the loss of plants and am forced to starve myself to death.

[Robin Hood]

3. What makes you so special?

You use up a shit load of resources and pollute wherever you go. So what makes you more special than a dog?

[K-W]

5. I am me, I dont want to be killed.

Its not about being special in the slightest. I personally dont think I am any more special than a rock.

[Robin Hood]

8. This we can both agree on.

We are not more special than rocks. Rocks are actually more responsible then we are.

[LincolnMcGrath]

9. You humans are a virus

[glarius]

10. Is this a serious question?.....Surely you jest!

:shrug:

edit:...I take that back...I guess you are jesting....

[HEyHEY]

2. Well, then lock me up I just took out a mouse yesterday

[Robin Hood]

4. Canadians don't count.

lol..

[HEyHEY]

12. phfeww

Cause I may have to do it again :evilgrin:

I don't want to though :evilfrown:

[Robin Hood]

15. I'm just Joking.

Canadians rock my world.

[MrSlayer]

6. No.

I eat animals. Being cruel simply for being cruel should be punished but killing animals for food or killing pests like like rats, mice and insects is fine.

[Robin Hood]

13. But the punishment for cruelty to animals is much less than to humans.

aAnd I find that really wrong. Somebody tortured my little baby girl Dachshund, I would have to go whacko on them like they wouldn't believe. Yet, the law pretty much slaps peoples hands when it comes to cruelty to animals.

Justice should be equal.

[Gildor Inglorion]

16. Dachshunds are supernatural beings

and not animals at all. They belong in a special category all their own. My little Roseanne died of extreme old age two years ago and I'm still deep in mourning for her. Thank goodness I have friends who will let me visit and play with their dachshunds occasionally.

[Robin Hood]

32. Oh god, i'm so sorry.

I love my little weiners sooo much that the thought of losing them kills me slowly on a daily basis. I don't know if I could ever replace them, it probably wouldn't be fair to place those kind of expectations on my next best friend.

It's true, Dachshunds are supernatural all knowing deities that exist only to give and receive pure love.

[Suziq]

68. My doxie . . .

is a paraplegic due to Intra-vertebral Disk disease (spinal) which required major surgery last July. God bless animals - they are so adaptable! She is learning to walk in a cart and doing quite well.

Nothing beats the unconditional love I am lucky enough to receive from her as well as my two kitties.

I seem to cry more when I hear of an animal being abused and killed by heartless people who think their sole purpose is to use up all the earth's resources and screw animals, plants, etc.

:hippie:

[Blue_Chill]

33. pffft my beagle says dach's are punks!

BTW - Sorry for your loss but I was forced to post this by a snarling black/white/brown creature who has yet again hidden my wallet.

PS - adopt a dog, they need you and your lost dog would want you to. Bless a dog with happiness and they pay you back ten fold.

[Robin Hood]

41. Your beagle is right,

Dachshunds are punks, But they can be whatever they want to be, They're supernatural deities of sweet divine love.

[burrowowl]

7. Not quite

However, fucking up with the natural balance is equivalent to killing people in the long run.
If you have to kill an animal to eat, then give thanks, do it humanely and be husbandry-like about it. Know what is involved. Eat less red-meat for example, nothing wrong with eating red-meat, but too much is too much: bad for health, overtaxes the ecology.
Would you blame a puma for eating a deer, now that there are too many deer, they eat the bark of trees upto where it kills the trees and etc. etc.
When predators become too numerous they die off, unfortunately humans do not seem to do so. Until of course mama-earth has been so screwed by human beans that her fart will gas them around the world.

[POed_Ex_Repub]

11. No

At least if your talking about food, or an infestation of some sort.

Would you lock up all the carnivores for killing other animals? Humans are part of the food chain, and for the most part we're omnivores.

Other animals defend their homes / territory, would you lock them up?

It's nature. It's not always pretty, but it never claimed to be thus.

On the other side of that, I believe that when an animal is killed it should be done in the least painful way possible. And I'm not one who would advocate killing for the sake of killing. food / territory / saftey are the only reasons I can think of off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other reasons.

[K-W]

14. Good question, surely if animals are the same laws should apply to them

[cryofan]

17. Yes, it's the same (and insects are animals, too)

even the little bitty insects you cannot see are also technically classified as animals. So if you step on one...we will call it murder.

[Blue_Chill]

18. No -BUT-

- We are atop the food chain and our biology proves it. Our eyes face forward to judge distance as opposed to being placed on the sides to scan the ground. We have teeth for both biting and chewing. And of course one can't deny the instinct humans have to kill and our complete intolerance for competition.

Having said that we have something lions, killer whales, and other predators don't have. We have a conscience and no need to hunt for survival. This makes our treatment of animals all the more abhorrent. We knowingly and needlessly cause pain and suffering to animals the such that is not seen anywhere else in the animal kingdom.

If you believe in God ask yourself if torturing animals and taking pleasure in pain is something he/she/it/they would approve of. If you don't believe in God ask yourself the social consequence of animal torture being acceptable and in fact enjoyable. How long before such behavior translates to humans. Studies show that humans that enjoy the torture of animals are more likely violent to-wards humans. I believe this to be because life is life period, and when we accept the torture of some it won't stop there, not for some at least. it devalues us all when we allow anything on this planet to be harmed needlessly

That ends my rant. Bye.

[EstimatedProphet]

20. Can we define torture here?

What, specifically, are you talking about? Both you and the original post talked about torturing animals. Is there an animal concentration camp somewhere? Did I miss a memo?

[Blue_Chill]

26. Yes you did miss the memo.

Look up what we do to animals in labs. No I'm not talking about the morality of testing I'm speaking of how we treat test animals. Also look into the types of test and decide for yourself if what is done to animals by the cosmetic industry and some medical schools is right or wrong.

Look at what is done to animals in the circus. Watch the many videos available on-line showing the 'trainer' beat the living hell out of a elephant and break it's tail. Watch the elephant cry (yes they cry) and scream in pain and torment. Ever heard of dancing bears? Wonder why they "dance"....it ain't pretty. Read about how old circus animals are sold groups so old rich guys can shoot them in "canned hunts" (and they call it a sport ha!).

While your at it look up factory farms and where your meat comes from. Look at images of chickens with the beaks cut off so they don't peck each other while crammed into small crates by the dozen so tightly they can barely move. Watch screaming cattle with broken legs be pushed by equipment made to push nonliving piles of rock to wards the slaughter house, watch as it's legs get torn off and it scream...jesus. Watch cows literally leap at the walls as they are pressed to wards death, then watch them being skinned alive because 'oops' the "self regulated" slaughter house forgot to comply with the law and kill or knock them out first.

Watch the video of fur animal being asphyxiated to death so as not to damage the fur. Perhaps you'd prefer to see anal electrocution, another favored technique. Then watch the baby seal being clubbed and watch as they scream and try to escape while the ice beneath them begins to steam and turn red.

After you've seen all this then tell yourself "what I've seen is only the video that has been secretly smuggled out, how much of this is going on that we DO NOT know about?!"

Sorry for the tone of this post but I do care about this issue greatly.

[AgadorSparticus]

29. I hear of these situations and they make my blood boil.

And we call ourselves civilized... This issue is close to my heart as well.

[EstimatedProphet]

49. OK

Just wanted a definition, that's all.
Of course I don't support that. No sane person does.

[Blue_Chill]

78. Support isn't the issue

As you said no sane person would. The problem is that so many ignore it.

[DemExpat]

65. If I think about this everyday I would go crazy.....

This, and cruelty to children.
Or any other helpless person.
:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

DemEx

[AgadorSparticus]

27. shoot yea. they're everywhere. they're called puppy mills.

100 dogs in little itty bitty cages, malnourished (as in skin and bones), knee deep in their own feces. it's deplorable the cases they've seen. one case in arkansas where a little kitten was BBQ on the grill--live!. people stood around and laughed. those bastards were convicted of cruelty to animals. I'm not sure what their sentence was but I'm sure it was not enough.

[Robin Hood]

34. Puppy mills are awfull and should be banned.

And I'm sure that those sister pokers that delighted in the torture of that kitten did not get what they deserved. If it were up to me, I would roast those assholes over an open pit, see how they liked it.

[demsrule4life]

28. I have to disagree

we are not on top of the food chain. If you think we are take a walk with no weapons amongst a pack of hungary lions.

[Blue_Chill]

31. I could take a lion

bring it on! :D

I only fear the hoot of owls, because damn if those things to creep me out with those giant eyes of evil! lol.

[Muddleoftheroad]

47. If I remember correctly

Was it Manute Bol who had once fought off a lion with a bicycle?

[AgadorSparticus]

58. lions are easy. it's the domestic cats that have enslaved us. ;))

[AgadorSparticus]

30. well said!

"I believe this to be because life is life period, and when we accept the torture of some it won't stop there, not for some at least. it devalues us all when we allow anything on this planet to be harmed needlessly"

---Well said Blue CHill.

[Cat Atomic]

53. What do you mean, "we have no need to hunt for survival?"

Many people do. I've got relatives who'd never get a decent cut of meat unless they killed the thing themselves. And so they do. And besides that, refusing to kill animals yourself means nothing if you still eat meat.

Some people are too principled to shoot a deer, but when they're hungry they pull right into a McDonald's and order a Big Mac.

Animal cruelty is a completely different subject. There's no excuse for inflicting unnecessary pain on anything, human or otherwise.

[Blue_Chill]

77. What I meant was

That we as a human race are not like many of our animal friends that depend on hunting for survival completely. A cheetah misses a few kills and it starves. We have warped nature so that it serves us.

Of course I speak in general terms fully aware that there are exceptions. Hunting for food is not in my eyes animal cruelty, to some it is and I can respect that. I however believe that if you wish to fight cruelty hunters are a far second to the meat industry.

[Sterling]

84. Everytime I start wanting to hate on you

I remeber that you feel this way about animals. Ok now you can go back to pissing me off.

[Cat Atomic]

19. Of course it's not.

And the reason is very simple. We're a social species, and we obviously cannot tolerate murderers in our midst.

We eat animals. There's nothing inherently wrong with killing an animal.

[Robin Hood]

36. There is something wrong with killing an animal for food,

When we pay our farmers(farm subsidies) not to grow food. I understand that there is an inherent habitual taste for meat,and I have it as well, though I am a vegetarian. But the excuse that we need it to survive when we pay farmers not to grow food is ridiculous.

I am a big man, i exist just fine without meat.

But I'm not here to preach to you how to eat. I just think that eventually there will come a time where the universe will start asking us to live up to our potential and responsibilies, I hope.

[Cat Atomic]

52. It's not ridiculous, Liberal_Guerilla.

I don't see how farm subsidies figure into it. I could have a house full of delicious pastries, but if I feel like eating meat, I'll do it.

I've killed and eaten lots of things... snakes, birds, rabbits, fish, etc. I don't take any pleasure in killing animals, but I don't feel any guilt about it either.

[AgadorSparticus]

56. I've read that about subsidies. And I agree with you. But...

I'm not a vegetarian. However, I don't eat beef, pork or lamb. When my lifestyle settles down (less traveling), I could work more on my diet. Until then, chicken is easy to get. I know I will go vegetarian at some point in my life. Just not now.

[AgadorSparticus]

57. delete: repeat post

[Cat Atomic]

51. Oops- disregard.

[Redneck Socialist]

21. Nope n/t

[AgadorSparticus]

22. Yes, I agree. People should be held with the same accountability.

Violence is violence. The rationalization that it's JUST an animal is crap. If that is the case, then it's okay to commit violent acts towards man because he is an animal too. People who are cruel to animals have been shown to eventually be cruel to people. It's a symptom of something royally fucked up in the wiring and as a society we should treat it with the same intensity as if directed towards humans. ok, I'll get off my soapbox now...

[AgadorSparticus]

24. p.s. When I say violence I meant cruelty to animals.

Not in killing for food---if done humanely with responsible farming and husbandry.

[mobuto]

74. Ewww, animal husbandry?

First they gave us divorce, then homosexuals, now animal husbandry? Damn liberals...


;-)

[mobuto]

73. Wait a second

I don't think anybody's condoning cruelty to animals (although not having read the thread I can't say for sure) but there's a difference between supporting criminal penalties for such and equating it to human misconduct. If you're driving and you hit a dog, you should not be sentenced for vehicular homicide. Animal cruelty likewise is wrong, and should be subject to enforced criminal penalties, but the same penalties as cruelty to humans? That's absurd.

[IconoclastIlene]

23. Sure, have my kid; save my cat.....

No, I cannot say I have gotten to that point quite yet but give me time....he is 13..LOL.

[TreasonousBastard]

25. Sometimes.

I agree that as the creatures with the ability to choose our actions,
we have special responsibilities.

Beyond that, though, the arguments can take off into some wierd areas.

And, yeah, some places don't have very effective animal cruelty laws. That should be changed.

[Mari333]

35. humans are 3rd generation apes and just animals also

If a house was on fire, and I had the choice to run into it and save a kitten or John Ashcroft...guess which one I would save?
I prefer non human animals as my family. They are much better life forms to associate with. Ive only met a few human animals in my life I can bear being around for very long.

[Robin Hood]

37. Oh God, I could not agree with you more.

Animals are much better companions than people. I definitely prefer their company.

My wife and I both feel that way.

[Columbia]

45. So you prefer animals to your wife?

?

[AgadorSparticus]

59. good god, YESSSS! so true.

[Kazak]

38. What about Mosquitoes?

Ticks?

[Robin Hood]

39. That falls under disease and pest control.

But do try to minimize their suffering if possible.

[Cleita]

40. Cruelty to animals is as bad as cruelty to children as far as I am

concerned and it should be punished as severly. Sometimes we have to kill like when we put an elderly pet to sleep, or have to deal with vermin, but it should be as humane as possible. I also am vegetarian because of our cruel factory type farms and I'm not any the worse off for it.

[Robin Hood]

43. The examples you mentioned all fall under our responsibilities

as care takers. but cruelty to animals should carry the same consequence as that of humans, maybe then this disturbing treatment of sentient beings will slow down or stop.

[Robin Hood]

42. Here are some links to educate yourselves on the cruelty to animals.

http://www.hsus.org/ace/11505

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/campaign/battery_campaign.htm

http://www.nodowners.org/

http://www.sentientbeings.org/

http://www.vegforlife.org/

http://www.noveal.org/

http://www.njfarms.org/


With hundreds of millions of dollars paid to farmers for not growing food9Farm Subsidies), This sort of treatment to animals is grotesquely unnecessary.

Eating meat is a habit not a need.

[theoceansnerves]

44. be careful...

animal rights activism seems to be frowned upon around here...

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. I think your idea is really nuts

How's that?

Sorry, we're top o' the food chain. We are smarter and more evolved than the cute furries. If you think there is no difference, you lack the capcity to grasp why that's downright silly.

[Robin Hood]

50. because of our so called smarts

we are endowed with just as much responsibility as our brain power suggests. And that responsibility should come with consequences.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Consequences

The first consequence is to look after MANKIND. In so doing, the rest of the animal kingdom may suffer.

[AgadorSparticus]

54. All more the responsibility to protect those that are not "evolved"...

How can anyone justify torture or cruelty in any shade? Just because we CAN doesn't mean we SHOULD. Your reasoning is the springboard for genocides, bigotry, racism....now that's downright scary.

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Torture

Well, let's see now. I assume by "torture," you mean medical tests. Guess what. Medical testing is necessary.

One of my closest friends has a host of allergies -- many that can make her deathly ill. She introduced me to a variety of hyper-sensitive people. These are people whom make-up can kill. The random restaurant food can do the same. Perfumes are another item that can have that impact.

Medical tests also provide us with many opportunities to try new drugs or medical procedures later useful for humans.

I love animals and I hate the idea of harming them. But to equate their death with human beings is pathetic.

[Sterling]

85. Not just testing

Which is wrong but sport like dogfights cock fights etc... We abuse animals for pleasure. Yes we still have some evolving to do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Testing is not wrong

Cockfights I would agree about, however.

[Eric J in MN]

48. not the same

It may be wrong to kill animals in many circumstances, but I don't think we should equate it with killing people.

People have more complex interactions and awareness.

Klling animals is generally bad, but is isn't murder.

[AgadorSparticus]

55. people have more complex interactions? awareness?

based on what? the more we study animals, the more we find that they are shades of us. And if we are not so egotistical, we might even learn that we could be shades of them.

Whales have very intricate communication systems. Bees and ants have very complex and efficient social systems. Ants are the fiercest. The military have been known to study ants for their strategies because they are so efficient. Martial arts & yoga take poses from animals.

Remember when the sun revolved around earth? And anything else was absurd....maybe we haven't evolved as much as we'd like to think.

[DemExpat]

66. Read this Economist article about dogs? "Sensitive Souls...."

http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2441795

It is a great read about dog's sociability and sensitivity to human cues....

:kick:

DemEx

[JackDragna]

60. Wait, wait, wait...

Killing people is bad?

[Fla_Democrat]

62. I know, it came as a shock to me, too.

:shrug:

[Piperay]

61. People who are cruel to animals

are likely to be cruel to people too and should be punished severely. :mad:

[kayell]

63. No, and I am a strict vegetarian

because of ethical and environmental issues.

Among the ethical issues for me is that I believe it is wrong to cause pain to sentient beings for the mere pleasure of flavor.

Nonetheless, I do discriminate between species based on level of sentience. I would have a much bigger problem with harming a dolphin than with harming a clam. And humans do win out with me.

I also recognize that humans have eaten and used animals throughout our existance. It is unreasonable to punish people for following a culture of millions of years standing.

I do definately support legislation to eliminate the egregious abuses of animals - the use in unnecessary testing, the crowding and debeaking torture of chickens, etc. Add in the horrid abuses in slaughterhouses that are cruel to both the human workers and animals.

I believe that vegetarianism is rather rapidly moving forward in our society, as people recognize for themselves the cruelty of the factory farming system. More people are also seeing the horrid costs to other people of processing vegetable protein through animals, wasting 90% of it.

I believe our efforts are best spent in educating people and letting them make their own choices. Unfortunately, I think that the punitive attitude is more likely to make people defensively protect their "right" to use animals, than to help open their eyes.

[RebelOne]

64. I agree. I don't believe in killing animals.

Especially killing for sport or fun, such as hunting.

[Zynx]

67. This is not a thought that should be seriously entertained.

I won't even comment.

[Sterling]

86. But you did.

Just not very well. Tell us why you feel that way.

[Loonman]

71. So if I run over a squirrel = vehicular homicide?

That's pretty damn stupid.

[Madison Grad]

72. It’s easy to be cavalier .....

when one has the privilege of going to the supermarket any time food is needed.

But in some cultures that is just not an option. Worldwide, many people will gladly accept any type of food which becomes available. Animals, plants or insects. Hubris quickly disappears when the distribution of food remains imbalanced for too long.

That said, I am strongly opposed to inhumane treatment of animals, but to equate the killing/ harvesting of an animal for food with murder reeks of cultural arrogance.

[Az]

75. Drawing the line

Animals exist by consuming other life. This is simply the nature of things. It is not inharently good or bad. The universe does not judge. It simply continues on and the dance of life goes with it.

But into this dance came the human mind. It asks questions. It judges. It struggles to understand.

We have increased our awareness of nature as we struggle to understand. We have moved ourselves from the center of the universe to a realization that we are just like other animals. Each with our own characteristics. It took us time to begin to realize that other humans that looked different were the same as us in more ways than they differed. We are learning that there are many things we share with other animals as well.

As our awareness of things increases our notions of right and wrong change with it. This becomes problematic when our burgeoning awareness of the interconnectiveness of all life runs into the fact that we must consume life to remain alive ourselves. Eventually we run into the fact that life must often kill to survive.

Plants and microbes are able to survive without killing (though some do). But the higher order animals must destroy other life to continue. It is neither right or wrong. It simply is.

Our minds enable us to invent morality to guide our descisions. It is in this way that right and wrong are invented. Our increased understanding of animals leads us to begin to include them in our criteria for protection. Those animals most similar to us or closely associated with us recieve this consideration first. Eventually the logic works itself out to other creatures. Eventually the end process is concern for all animals.

The problem with this process is it sometimes out runs our ability to deal with the problems it creates. Life is a system. It cannot simply stop, reformat itself, and continue on in a new direction. It takes time for the machinary of life to change directions. Our growing concern for other life does not mean we must suddenly cease consuming other animals. It does suggest that we may wish to begin to seek alternatives. But even then, until we find a way to completely disconnect ourselves from the web of life we will be consumers of life. This is simply what we are. It is neither right or wrong. It is simply is.

[Skittles]

76. No

but people who kill animals for entertainment are cowards. COWARDS.

[LWolf]

79. shifting perspective about killing:

Rather than animals vs people, I think

*Killing should never be done lightly or unnecessarily.
*When necessary, killing should be done with respect.

I carry that philosophy with me to the big and small. I don't support the death penalty. I do support assisted suicide; respect for life includes respect for the right to choose how it ends. I don't support killing for sport. Or for vanity, or for luxury. I do support killing for food. But I expect killing for food to be done humanely. I also expect animals raised for food to be raised humanely. I don't kill spiders. I don't kill every bug or insect on sight. I do kill mice that want to live in my house or barn. I don't usually do to much insect killing in my garden; since there is no pesticide, I leave that to my hens, the ladybugs, etc.

Nothing lives without taking life. It is the respect for life, and the reasoned decision about when it is necessary, that drives me.

I value animal and plant life as much as humans. We are sustained by plants; how could I not honor that? And I find animals to be more honest, and more truly themselves, than people. I trust animals more than people.

So to answer your question: killing without respect, and unnecessarily, is bad. Whether it is an animal or a person. Or a plant, or an insect.

[AgadorSparticus]

80. LWolf, I don't think it could be better said....thank you....

[Robin Hood]

82. I could not have said it better my self.

Thank you.

[LWolf]

88. You, and

progressivebebe, are welcome.

:hi:

[LibertyorDeath]

81. Yes! & when you come back as one you'll see why!

[Sterling]

83. Animal cruelty should have way stiffer penalties

I am not sure that it is equal to killinmg a human but we let animal abusers off way to easy. There is a conection between animal abuse and human preditory behavior. Locking up animal abusers will keep them from abusing humans which ultimately is where abusers take things.

[Butterflies]

89. Yes