The Right has Successfully Changed the Subject - and WE LET THEM

[Stephanie]

One week ago we were talking about: No WMDs, Plamegate, AWOL, OSP

And we were about to dig deeper into these issues.

AWOL ==> BATH ==> Bin Ladens ==> LIHOP

Don't let the RIGHT hijack the agenda!!

They are WRONG to discriminate against ANYONE on the basis of sex, religion, race, national origin, age, disability or sexual preference (or anything else I left out). PERIOD.

Don't allow the right to change the subject when we're talking about THEM and their FAILURES.

Don't Take the BAIT!!

[Catholic Sensation]

1. well John Kerry called Bush out on this

which is one reason I'm a supporter of Kerry's (also because we share the same first name, first two initials, and religion I'm being sarcastic about this, but it's no less ridiculous than voting on one single issue).

Thank God for John Kerry

[MrSoundAndVision]

3. Neo progressive huh?

Does John Kerry pass for a "neo" progressive? Does "neo" = "not" here?

[I AM SPARTACUS]

4. and look in LBN - Kerry's calling Smirko on issue after issue...

[MrSoundAndVision]

2. Now we're talking about Nader, don't forget that...

and we don't need to be. The Supreme Court replaced our democracy, Ralph Nader didn't steal our election (see Supreme Court rulings, 12/2000).

And if our election is replaced again, expect the media to blame third party candidates like Nader, just like last time.

We can't let them do it again. Elevate the discussion, vote Kucinich!

[Stephanie]

5. Right. Nader is a red herring.

He's a nonentity. Won't get fooled again. But we're talking about him when we need to be examining Bush/Cheney, and their f**ked up ideology, and their LIES.

FOCUS.

[djg21]

8. Supreme Court and poor Gore Campaign aside . . .

Here are the 2000 numbers for FL and NH:

FLORIDA (before recount) 25 electoral votes
Al Gore (D)2,907,351 49%
George W. Bush (R)2,909,135 49
Difference 1,784
Ralph Nader (G)96,915 2
Patrick Buchanan (RP)17,358 0

NEW HAMPSHIRE (100%) 4 electoral votes
Al Gore (D)265,853 47%
George W. Bush (R)273,135 48
Difference 7,882
Ralph Nader (G)22,156 4
Patrick Buchanan (RP)2,603 0

Say what you will, but had Nader not run, Al Gore would have won both of these states and he'd be in the Whitehouse. The fact that he'd even contemplate another run in 2004 is simply bewildering.

Nader is despicable.

[Stephanie]

10. That was then

I hope everyone's learned from experience.

I don't feel Nader is a factor this time around.

[noiretextatique]

35. what's really bewildering is that you post these figures

withourt mentioning ANYTHING about the florida voter disenfranchisement scheme. those numbers are meaningless, considering the number of likely democratic voters purged from the rolls and prevented from voting.
may i also say...with nader now in the race, it's long past time for democrats to stop whining and be prepared for a repeat in 2004. this time, let's hope DISENFRANCHISEMENT is more of an issue than ONE of the candidates.

[djg21]

42. OK!

Your right, disenfranchisement was an issue.

But nevertheless, Nader cost Gore FL and NH, and ultimately, the General Election. The disenfranchisement in FL would not have been outcome determinative if Nader had not run. That is a simply an undisputable truth.

It's time that Nader's supporters take there heads out of the sand (and I'm being polite!) and stop defending that egomaniacal ass. His actions were and are indefensible. A vote for Nader is worse than a wasted vote. It is a vote for the republican candidate!

[noiretextatique]

54. what's indefensible is DISENFRANSHISEMENT

what's indefensible is continuing to focus on nader, who broke NO LAW, when people, LIKELY DEMOCRATIC VOTERS, were targetted for disenfranshisement by the GOP, who constantly break laws.
what's indefensible is that IT WORKED so well, and that the democratic leadership BARELY MENTIONED IT as an issue in the florida election. prepare for a repeat, that's all i'm saying.
perhaps this time, we won't let the GOP get away with it.

[Woodstock]

59. I wish I could get a good reason why this isn't being discussed

I brought this up at work the other day. Nobody seems to even be thinking about it. I keep saying, we need to win by 10% just to offset how much they will cheat.

This article alone ought to raise red flags:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16474

[rhino47]

6. Took the words right out of my mouth.

:kick:I agree.The attention is shifting on gay marriage issue.I was
wondering if it was a conspiracy to get the spotlight off of
the miserable failure.

[Stephanie]

7. Of course it is. It's a classic Rovian ploy.

If you don't have anything positive to run on, attack someone else.

They're nothing but ignorant bullies.

DON'T LET THEM SET THE AGENDA.

[Art_from_Ark]

12. They are masters of the wedge issue

They know how to create panic with issues that are blown far out of proportion (weapons of mass destruction, anyone?) but which are guaranteed to create rifts in the more eclectic (and therefore more fragmentable) Democratic Party.

The real issue here is the squatter in the White House and the effects his reckless policies are going to have on all of us for years to come.

[radwriter0555]

46. That's right, WAG THE FAG, is what this debacle has turned out to be...

just like rush and his drug abuse issues.

[Stephanie]

9. I can't believe we've been baited into a debate about THEOLOGY!

WHY is this front page discussion? This debate can NEVER BE RESOLVED. It is a RED HERRING.

What we need to discuss is the THEFT OF OUR DEMOCRACY BY RIGHT WING LUNATICS.

[varun]

11. its only February...

how long will Bush harp about gay marriages?

sooner or later, it will be Jobs, Jobs, Jobs...and Iraq

[Not Me]

15. I agree...

I am glad it came out in February instead of August. It will be back to the real issues by the end of the week.

[Stephanie]

19. Welcome to DU, orlandoFL!

I hope you are prepared to be a pollwatcher next fall! We need you!

[Norquist Nemesis]

25. Give it a week or two

it will be drowned out by the capture of Bin Laden

[AgadorSparticus]

63. right on stephanie!! we need to get back to the issues that matter...

IRAQ, WMD, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, JOBS! Oh, and HEALTHCARE!

[orwell]

13. Bait and Switch

The Cons understand that the splintered opposition will aways fall prey to wedge politics. That is because we define ourselves as a collection of issues rather than a collection of moral principles.

"Freedom to Marry" flows from Progressive respect and empathy for others. That is the moral basis for a position in support of our brothers and sisters who are discriminated against. We believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all people.

First of all, stop accepting their framing. "Gay Marriage" or "Same Sex Marriage" "DOMA" are their wedge terms. They need to evoke terms such as "Gay" or "Sex" to juxtapose the love, commitment, morality and family aspects of the word marriage with their notion of "deviant sexuality". If we accept the terms we accept the frame. If we negate the terms we still accept the frame. This goes on all the time of Con media operations such as OxyRush or Faux News.

Terms such as "Freedom to Marry" reframe the debate in Progressive terms. The more you use it, the more you change the public frame. I have been using it for days here and everyone still repeats the Con frame of "Gay Marriage." In essence, even if the amendment goes nowhere, which is likely, they have won by defining themselves AND us with their frame.

That is why they control the debate. That is why we take the bait. They control us through the language and the emotional and moral touchpoints it evokes.

O

[Stephanie]

16. Excellent post, thank you.

But it's not just their framing of the debate.

It is their framing of the national agenda.

We are in the middle of a national discussion of whether it's criminal for a WH to LIE a nation into war, based on evidence they KNOW is false.

And whether the WH should be called to account when they criminally expose the identity of a U.S. undercover intelligence agent for their own political advantage.

And whether a WH can get away with staging a publicity stunt at great expense, on the taxpayer's dime, when its agenda is to promote a LIE about the pResident's military past, and then refuse to discuss the truth about that past.

We have a lot of very important things to talk about. But this WH has managed to change the subject, so that now we are discussing whether or not, in the 21st century, there are certain of our citizens who deserve FEWER rights than others.

We cannot allow them to dominate the national conversation in that way. We have to stay FOCUSED and NOT TAKE THE BAIT.

They want to shift the focus from their LIES to an innocent scapegoat that happens to be ten percent of the population. We have to defend our principles, but we CANNOT LET THEM DETERMINE THE AGENDA.

[orwell]

31. The Lies Have It

Thanks. I share your frustrations. It is important for us to stay on message and on target. But we must do it strategically first, and tactically second.

For example, the lie charge will not resonate with much of the public, except with those who already distrust Bushie and the Cons.

Linguists have discovered something remarkable about our notions of lying. People often say that it is amoral to lie, but then they are able to rationalize lies within certain contexts.

For example a white lie is often acceptable. It is "little."
An overt lie can be acceptable if there is grave danger in telling the truth. For example you would be excused for lying to protect yourself or loved ones from physical danger. This is Bush's implied excuse.

In other words, the lie charge probably will not stick with most of the Bush base or even some of the swing voters who supported him.

The key to undermining Bush's frame is to hit him on the trust issue. We will tolerate lies from politicians if we trust they are acting in the public interest. This is why the public did not ask for Clinton's head when they knew he was lying about Monica.

We must frame the Bush lies as a betrayal the public trust. Betrayal is far different than lying. Betrayal resonates within all moral frameworks as unacceptable. It is especially damaging to the strong father model fundamentalists that comprise Bush's base.

This is why they are starting to worry. They can't afford Bush to be seen as both incompetent and untrustworthy. This is what Rove is terrified of. This is a charge that will be devastating to Bush because it directly explodes his framework, one that has been so carefully cultivated by his media machine.

In the end, truth is in the context of the framework of the observer. When the facts don't fit the frame, the facts lose.

O

[Stephanie]

36. Excellent. thanks! Is that why we say "credibility" instead of "LIES"?

bush has a "credibility problem"...

Thanks for posting such an interesting concept - and I'm sure it's right. I myself excuse Clinton's lie as a white lie, because in context I find it irrelevant, and justified.

VERY interesting POV. Please post lots more about it. THIS is the kind of attack we need. And this kind of angle is springing up from the GRASSROOTS, US, as much as it is from the party leaders. So this kind of analysis is KEY for us. Please, post more!

Let's FRAME the issues that WE want to talk about.

LYING the nation into war, sacrificing our sons' and daughters' lives for a war based on LIES, is what we need to be talking about.

[orwell]

51. Covenant

Thank you.

Credibility problem is somewhat effective in that it uses the word "problem". Problems need to be "solved" or "fixed".

I prefer using the words "trust" and "betrayal". That is why "betrayed our trust" is so powerful. We are willing to put up with a lie if we feel it is in our best interest, (protection, social lies such as "you look nice in that dress") but all of us deal with betrayal of trust harshly. It can be "the deal breaker" if you will. The use of the word "our" unites us in the charge. He didn't betray the trust of the left, who never trusted him, but of the whole country. He sent "us" to war and did it dishonorably.

If I were Kerry or Edwards, I would use this meme this way:

Yes I voted for IWR because I trusted that our President was leveling with us when he assured us that Iraq was a grave threat to our National Security. But he broke the covenant with Congress. He betrayed our trust. And worst of all, he betrayed the American people.

That is why I am running for President of the United States. I will restore your trust in the Presidency.

This type of rhetoric will resonate with the entire voting public. The betrayal "meme" is out there. It just needs to be hammered with repetition.

O

[Stephanie]

52. George Bush Has Betrayed Our Trust (over and over and over again!)

I'd like to see this as its own thread topic - this is something we really need to get out into the atmosphere.

Betrayal - Exposed the identity of a CIA agent for political gain.

Betrayed Our Trust - Used false evidence to scare America into suppporting the invasion of Iraq

Betrayed America - Presented himself as a "Compassionate Conservative" when in fact he is nothing but a bigot.

[orwell]

53. 3 Strikes

You go girl!

O :bounce:

[Stephanie]

56. No, you go!

Make the thread. It's a really good point and more people should see it.

xx
S

[AgadorSparticus]

64. Orwell, Steph is right--you need to start a thread on this.

I very much enjoyed reading your posts and I think many others will too. It would help educate people on the art of rhetoric and enable them to spot various tactics when inundated with the media.

[Stephanie]

65. You see! Post the thread, damnit

janet.

[Wells]

14. Gay Marriage is a diversion tactic.

You're right - it's meant to change the subject. Bush doesn't want his base constituency to be uncomfortable dealing with more important issues. Like Fluff News, gay marriage is a non-issue to normal people. Christians are different. Jesus loves them, but hates other people.

[Stephanie]

18. Normal people?

I don't think that's what you meant to say.

I think what you mean is that most people in this country are 'live and let live.' It's not an issue to them because they have not suffered discrimination because of it, nor would they wish that discrimination on anyone else.

It's an issue to me. It's an issue to all fair-minded people.

But it is being EXPLOITED as an issue in order to change the subject, at an opportune time for a presidency that is on the rocks.

[DemBones DemBones]

38. Hold on here. . .

"Christians are different. Jesus loves them, but hates other people.'

That's an awfully narrow view of Christianity. There are a lot of Christians on this board who do not think that way

[Cleita]

17. Stephanie

:yourock:

[Stephanie]

20. Aw - thanks!

:toast:

[Oilwellian]

21. Be happy this issue is being discussed

Check out the results on Lou's poll. This administration clearly doesn't have a finger on the pulse of America. :D
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/

[Stephanie]

24. Very nice, but still - that THIS is the topic for Dobbs, is the issue

Would you support a constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriage?

Yes 19% 2586 votes
No 81% 11005 votes
Total: 13591 votes

This proves my point. Most Americans are not invested in this issue. Most Americans believe in equal rights for all Americans. That they have MADE it an issue is the problem we face.

We should be talking about whether a president who pledges to serve his country during war, then shirks that duty, then LIES about it because he wants to be president, then prances on a carrier in a flight suit POSING as a fighter pilot for a PHOTO-OP, has the RIGHT to send others into combat under FALSE PRETENSES.

In my opinion, that is what we should be talking about.

They have CREATED these other issues to distract from the others.

Americans are fair-minded people who don't wish to discriminate. They can be manipulated by propaganda. But only if we let the Right get away with it.

[Toby109]

22. Dead on, Stephanie!

I wish I had written that. :)

Always keep your eyes on the ball. Cause if you look away at the wrong time, that ball is like ta wind up breaking your fool nose.

[Stephanie]

29. I wish I had written it better!

Thanks! Yes! They have created a huge diversion and drawn attention from their outrageous LIES and CRIMES and STUPIDITY.

[scottxyz]

23. I used to think this too - now I think it will actually HURT Bush

Check out some of these other threads:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1157382

For example, Bush lost notorious right-wing gay commentator Andy Sullivan:

WAR IS DECLARED: The president launched a war today against the civil rights of gay citizens and their families. And just as importantly, he launched a war to defile the most sacred document in the land. Rather than allow the contentious and difficult issue of equal marriage rights to be fought over in the states, rather than let politics and the law take their course, rather than keep the Constitution out of the culture wars, this president wants to drag the very founding document into his re-election campaign. He is proposing to remove civil rights from one group of American citizens - and do so in the Constitution itself. The message could not be plainer: these citizens do not fully belong in America. Their relationships must be stigmatized in the very Constitution itself. The document that should be uniting the country will now be used to divide it, to single out a group of people for discrimination itself, and to do so for narrow electoral purposes. Not since the horrifying legacy of Constitutional racial discrimination in this country has such a goal been even thought of, let alone pursued. Those of us who supported this president in 2000, who have backed him whole-heartedly during the war, who have endured scorn from our peers as a result, who trusted that this president was indeed a uniter rather than a divider, now know the truth.

NO MORE PROFOUND AN ATTACK: This president wants our families denied civil protection and civil acknowledgment. He wants us stigmatized not just by a law, not just by his inability even to call us by name, not by his minions on the religious right. He wants us stigmatized in the very founding document of America. There can be no more profound attack on a minority in the United States - or on the promise of freedom that America represents. That very tactic is so shocking in its prejudice, so clear in its intent, so extreme in its implications that it leaves people of good will little lee-way. This president has now made the Republican party an emblem of exclusion and division and intolerance. Gay people will now regard it as their enemy for generations - and rightly so. I knew this was coming, but the way in which it has been delivered and the actual fact of its occurrence is so deeply depressing it is still hard to absorb. But the result is clear, at least for those who care about the Constitution and care about civil rights. We must oppose this extremism with everything we can muster. We must appeal to the fair-minded center of the country that balks at the hatred and fear that much of the religious right feeds on. We must prevent this graffiti from being written on a document every person in this country should be able to regard as their own. This struggle is hard but it is also easy. The president has made it easy. He's a simple man and he divides the world into friends and foes. He has now made a whole group of Americans - and their families and their friends - his enemy. We have no alternative but to defend ourselves and our families from this attack. And we will.

http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2004_02_22_dish_archive.html#107764340071973047

If Bush can screw up so bad that even Andy Sullivan wakes up and smells the coffee - that's pretty serious.

I think people are seeing Bush's support for a Constitutional ban on gay marriage as a sign of desperation.

Yes people get very emotional about gay marriage and yes it can be a "wedge issue" to a certain extent. But most reasonable people realize there are a lot of more serious issues facing the country (the war, the economy, unemployment, healthcare, education, environment) and they're not gonna fall for another Willie Horton or flag-burning distraction.

As Josh Marshall said:

"The president hits the 50% approval mark and he comes out for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and civil unions.

What lever does he pull when he hits 45%?"

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_02_08.html#002548

People are tired of being manipulated with tangential issues when the economy's falling apart and we have a questionable war going on. Support for anti-gay-marriage amendment could be the DEFINING legacy of George W. Bush.

[Stephanie]

27. Yes, I think you're right. It is a sign of desperation.

It will lose him any thinking supporters he has left.

BUT, I am sad to see DU fall in line when BushCO sets such an agenda.

Maybe it is temporary.

But I don't like to lose focus on the real issues we need to bring attention to - Iraq War Lies, 9/11 Questions, AWOL, etc.

[maggrwaggr]

26. Too late. I railed about this months ago

the first time it came up, and it was fucking obvious what the repugs were gonna do with this issue.

Well, now they've done it, and lo and behond, people are actually stopping their talk about the stupid Jesus movie long enough to talk about gay marriage.
:eyes:

Meanwhile, a whistle blower has told the truth about why we invaded Iraq.

And it wasn't for Democracy. And it wasn't about WMD's.

It should be the biggest story of the fucking YEAR:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/13/news-cooper.php

[Stephanie]

28. Right. Exactly.

That's the real story.

That's a treasonable offense, don't you think?

What does it take to grab attention to BushCO crimes?

Thousands murdered based on LIES.

[NashVegas]

30. They Were Waiting for Dean to Drop Out

That's just my feel. He had nothing to lose by speaking out on the issue, unlike Kerry & Edwards. Where they're called 'wafflers,' for trying to have it both ways, politically, Dean can at least say he didn't go for GM out of his own beliefs and be consistent, while strongly defending CUs and denouncing an amendment.

I thought it was pretty obvious TPTB didn't want him speaking on it when Kerry & others got asked about it in the last debate but he wasn't asked for his own view, nor had to rebut on it.

[Mick Knox]

32. hmm.. true.. hadnt thought of that.. it is definately the "news" now nt

[Kimber Scott]

33. The last time the conversation got too hot

for the Bush Regime they pulled Hussein out of a hole. Now they're pulling Nader and gay marriage out of their hats. You're right. We've got to stay focused.

Is anybody making bets they'll slip Bin Laden out of their sleeve sometime in September/October?

[philodox]

34. To me

It feels like the republican party is sending up trial balloons, trying to find the issues that they can harp on this summer. They're finding words and phrases that will bring people to the polls to pull the (R) lever. They're flinging mud, and seeing what sticks. "Jobs are better" didn't stick-maybe "sanctity of marriage" will. I'm afraid of what they'll trot out next.

[Stephanie]

37. I think you're right! But I also think they underestimate the common sense

of the American people. Americans don't like BIGOTRY. So I think this issue will backfire on them.

But I think you're right - they are so desperate they are tossing everything in the air to see what will stick. Anything to distract from their LIES and FAILURES in the WH.

Welcome to DU, philodox! Stick around, it's just about to get interesting around here!

[anarchy1999]

39. You are right. GAME OVER. The Right have won, we let them.

It is now all about same sex marriage, the 10 Commandments in Halls of Justice, the Pledge of Allegiance, Prayer in the mornings in schools and so on and so forth.

(Can't wait for the Left Behind Series to become required reading. can you?)

Just move on and get over all the rest of the issues you feel are important. Electronic voting, the illegal Supreme Court decision giving Busy the presidency, Pre-emptive War, we are screwed. The above issues are far more relevant. Don't you feel it? (Heavy on sarcasm, at this point).

Where has Nader been these last 3 years? Good question!

There is only one hope for democracy this year. Making sure every vote is counted, period. That is it. If we can not make that happen, we get Bush in 2004.

[specimenfred1984]

40. I disagree, this issue makes * look even dumber

as if that were even possible. He's reduced himself to the level of a TV evangelist begging for votes against "EVIL".

The other million+ lies haven't gone away and never will, this just adds to the long, long list.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. It's no surprise that the media jump on to other issues but we

don't have to. And we can demand that they keep covering what we want covered.

Lou Dobbs has been saying a lot of radical things, really, despite the gay marriage poll tonight. I thought tonight that perhaps I needed to e-mail him to remind him we want to know about Bush*'s Guard records. The White House released the records and then everyone went mute on the issue! (Lou did bring it up yesterday, talking with a Viet Nam war hero/ Republican, but I want to see all the news programs really explore the records.)

[Sgt. Peppers]

43. Good Point.

I agree

[9215]

44. Big kick. Great topic Stephanie!

All of this talk of religion is just proof that it is the opiate of the masses.


Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
- Voltaire, 1767.

[lostnfound]

45. Bingo! That's WHY they did it, and to solidify their own constituency.

My faith-based coworkers who were finally having doubts about Bush after his war lies are now surely focused on him as "a defender of marriage". This issue is being used to polarize the public AGAIN around a Republican playing field.

It's an ugly tangled knot that starts (ironically) with legalized abortion. THEY think THEY are RIGHT. I just got an email the other day from someone talking about whether her and her husband could ever vote Democrat if the Democrat "shared the same values" as we did.

This couple is not racist, but they are VERY Catholic.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

47. The media loves this one, unlike the Mars distraction

Anything with science was bound to make their eyes glaze over, too much "thinking," so they didn't go anywhere with the Mars thing.

I think it is totally disgusting how the cable news, especially, loves to drag out Falwell and the other religious right haters every chance they get. It seems like they enjoy stirring up hate and division.

[MrPrax]

48. Some of the blame must be shared?

Even at DU

...the gay marriage threads have surpassed the Passion threads which only recently have replaced the Nader-Bashing threads in GD...in fact there are more threads about Log Cabin Republicans (like as if anyone gives shit about the those Smithers...)

Why accuse the GOP of changing the agenda....

Jeez, there might be a massacre brewing in Haiti, I hear?

[Woodstock]

49. Agree, I guess I'll come back in a week

The majority of the threads in GD are either about gay marriage or Mel Gibson/Jesus bashing.

I think most Dems, both electors and electees are 1) not homophobic 2) don't really care much about Mel/but many are Christians in a humble, private, and noninvasive way.

So what's happening on GD just helps the right.

Because it takes the focus away from the economy (the deficit and jobs), the war in Iraq (and our soldiers dying by the day and losing arms and legs), lies by the administration (we could write many threads just on that), the CIA agent leak, the computer files breakin, the buildup of terrorists in Pakistan they are doing nothing about, Bush's lack of character (the AWOL issue, among others), losing our civil liberties, the rigging of the next election with computerized voting machines, neocon empire building AKA war-mongering (and the likelihood of the draft being reinstated), pollution limits dropped and the land being ravaged and despoiled, blue AND white collar jobs going overseas in record numbers, ...

They don't want us to talk about these things. They DO want us to talk about something we all basically agree about - that church and state should be separate (that covers gay marriage and Mel and whether Jesus existed.) I'm sure they're very happy when they check out the DU forum. Mission Accomplished.

I guess I'll come back in a week and see if anyone wants to talk about the things that will defeat Bush in the upcoming election. That's my goal number one at this point, because if we don't do that, then nothing else - all these fine points - will matter much. The country is doomed.

:kick:

[LeahMira]

50. You are correct...

Senator Kerry was right on target about this stuff when he said that the Shrub has a record that he can't talk about because it is so-o-o-o bad.

I certainly do intend to promote equal rights for all our citizens whenever the issue comes up, but can we also talk about the rights that all of us have lost over the past three years? Would people who are homosexual mind particularly if the denial of their rights were to be positioned as just the most recent example of how this administration is denying everyone rights that, up until now, we assumed were part of our heritage as citizens of the U.S.A.

[catzies]

55. So many red herrings and I don't eat fish!

Amen, Stephanie. I'm with ya. :thumbsup:

[CaptainClark23]

57. THANK YOU!

Eyes on the prize, folks.

At the risk of sounding like an end-of-days, left-behind devotee: This is an all out war for our future, and that of our progeny.

Don't let them decide the field of battle or its terms.

[havocmom]

58. Regulate boardrooms not bedrooms

Whenever anyone brings up gay marriage, say that then ask why Ken Lay is still free.

[Mari333]

60. and everyone is ignoring this

http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/02/week_2/10_iraq2.html

[Stephanie]

61. Wow! You're right - it's outrageous that this is being ignored

The unseen cost of the war in Iraq
US Politics
Published: 10-Feb-2004
By: Jonathan Miller

The true extent of US casualties in Iraq are still unknown. This has fuelled suspicion that the administration may be hiding the true human cost of the war and its aftermath. Channel Four News has been allowed a rare opportunity to meet some of America's wounded soldiers.

In a dark corner of Andrews Air Force base on the outskirts of Washington DC, America's war-wounded come home.

The human cost of humbling tyrants.

No ceremony, no big welcome.

More than 11,000 medical evacuees have come through Andrews in the past nine months, the Air Force says.

Most, we suspect, from Iraq. But that's 8,000 more than the Pentagon says have been wounded there.

<more>

[AgadorSparticus]

66. just when I thought they couldn't sink any lower....

they come up with more surreal information to make me think, what planet am I living in??? the one i lived in 4 years ago wasn't anything like this...

[jackstraw45]

62. IMO, they've only added wood to the fire...

This administration is so crooked it's hard to keep all of their crimes in the picture at once.

Just imagine what else they are up to.

Too bad we have a media that doesn't do true investigative reporting anymore.

[welshTerrier2]

67. i have to tell you

i'm always impressed with your insights !!

last night i counted how many threads (only looking at the subject line) were about gay marriage ...

on page one of the GDF, the score was 17 out of 40 ... that's almost half ...

it's not that the topic is unimportant ... but gay marriage is not going to be the issue that knocks bush out of the white house ... and if we don't knock bush out of the white house and win back the congress, talking about gay marriage will not achieve anything ...

we need to stay very, very focussed on the issues you raised ... once we have a dem president and a dem congress, we can do battle on the social / cultural issues ... gay marriage is the right issue at the wrong time ...