Why are so many in society homophobic?

[fujiyama]

Even among people that are otherwise liberal, they exhibit homophobic traits. I'm a straight male in my earliy twenties and it's amazing how many anti gay jokes you will encounter. It also pretty much goes across racial lines. I used to find these funny in an immature way, but nowadays I actually find them somewhat offensive.

I think this is common in society. Even though I considered myself liberal in '00, I never really thought of gay rights beyond the idea that the government should get the hell out of people's bedrooms. Only recently (within the last few years, and partly thanks to DU - I've become more liberal since coming on this board!), I realized that it makes no sense to deny homosexual couples full rights (including those of marriage).

But I'm afraid that many don't feel this way. Homosexuality bothers them for some reason. I'm not even sure I'd call it homophobia, but it bothers many.

[mhr]

1. A Small Argument - One Thinks Heterosexual Males Are intimidated By The

open sexuality expressed oft times by homosexual couples.

Part of this stems from repressed sexual desire. In most western cultures, sex is still marginally taboo. Hence, the homosexual couples break this taboo by openly embracing their sexual desires.

This makes heterosexual males, in particular, quite uncomfortable since their sexual desires must be carefully repressed and only expressed and acted upon under strict codes of behavior.

In a nutshell, heterosexual males feel repressed because they are not getting enough sex. Consequently, they want to insure that others are not getting enough either.

Just a theory that seems to fit observed behavior.

[HydroAddict]

4. Interesting idea.

After reading fujiyama's post, I said out loud "Religion, isn't it obvious?", but after reading your post, I've rethought it a little.

If homophobia is just an innate biological response, then religion is merely a rationalization of said behavior, similar to how religion was used to rationalize the despicable, yet economically beneficial, practice of slavery in the Confederate South.

Just a thought.

[SerpentX]

8. I respectfully disagree

There are as many gay prudes as there are straight prudes. There simply is no truth to the idea that gays or bisexuals are more sexually active, or even more sexually expressive, than straight people are. The media has made a lot of money telling people otherwise, but it just ain't so.

[mhr]

28. You May Be Right, The Point Is How Homosexuals Are Viewed By Straights

In that context, the truth in Homosexual bedrooms is of little consequence.

Perception is often reality.

[HEyHEY]

25. I believe it has a lot to do with parents

The homophobes I know were basically taught gay people were the same as child molesters. So, think about how you feel about child molesters...that's how homophobes feel about gay people. I was lucky, my father is a very laid back guy and even has a lesbian with a shaved head and piercings working right in the front window of his business despite all the jokes he's heard of the years from other business men.

SO needless to say I was never exposed to the hatred. AS for racism...my Dad gets very upset when racist jokes/comments are made...my MOTHER however.... she's got some issues.

[Vernunft II]

2. Sozialisation

Many of us (including myself) were brought up thinking Homosexuality is something dirty. It takes conscious effort to overcome it. So far, far too little people undertake that effort so homophobia is carried on generation by generation.

[lojasmo]

3. Largely, IMO

It is because of homophobic parents. Occasionally, it is societal pressures from peers in school.

When I was younger, I thought I wasn't homophobic, but I actually was. It wasn't until I met some gay people, and became friends with them, that I really learned to relax.

I'm still somewhat uncomfortable when a gay man flirts with me, but I'm uncomfortable when a woman flirts, too, so I suppose it's not homophobia. Does anybody know what the phobia of sexual innuendo is?

[Vernunft II]

23. That´s basically what I said :-)

It get´s handed down generation after generation unless one questions it and thus breaks the chain. Most people never get in a situation to question which is why right now so many are feeling very uncomfortable.

[LeahMira]

33. Could be...

It is because of homophobic parents. Occasionally, it is societal pressures from peers in school.


Well, it certainly comes from somewhere, but homosexuality was never discussed at home or in school when I was younger. I probably lived a sheltered life because I had no clue that any such thing existed until I went to college, but then I grew up in the 50s and 60s, so we may be looking at a generational thing.

Generally, though, I've found that people are afraid not so much of "becoming homosexual" but of being treated as if they were homosexual. In order to protect themselves from the discrimination that homosexuals have to deal with, they need to distance themselves as far as possible from homosexuality.

Put overly simply, they think: People who are homosexual get AIDS, but I'm not homosexual so I can't get AIDS. People who are homosexual are pedophiles, but I'm not homosexual so I can't be a pedophile (or accused of being a pedophile).

Or, they might turn it around and think: People who are homosexual enjoy the arts, so I will never, ever go to an opera, a symphony, or a ballet because if people see me there they will think I'm homosexual. If I'm forced to go to the opera in order to please my wife, I will act as unhappy as I can because if I act like I'm enjoying myself people will think I'm homosexual.

I guess it's a mechanism that feeds on itself. There really isn't a specific "way that homosexuals act" or, as they say, a "homosexual lifestyle." Still, if straight males refuse to go to the opera or even to admit that they like the opera, then the only males who will go are the males who are gay.

Pity the poor, repressed, frightened, straight male who has forbidden himself the pleasures of life because of what the neighbors might say.

(I really don't think that women are quite as upset about lesbianism, but I could be mistaken. Anyone?)

[mikehiggins]

5. Among men it is fear of being/being thought gay that leads to

homophobia. When I was a young man--late teens until well into my 20's--being "hit on" by a gay was a constant, if low key, concern. If I were attractive to gays what would that say about me, or the way people saw me? And what would other people think if they found out?

The fact that it never happened--as one friend suggested, even if he were gay he'd still have better taste than to hit on me--didn't stop the nervousness.

My money is on cultural conditioning. Other cultures have other mores.

[Nobody]

6. Society's expectations and what our society really values

A friend I had while growing up turned out to be gay and no one was surprised.

Society has these expectations of what boys and girls are supposed to be like. Neither I (a girl) nor he (a boy) stayed within society's expectations of what boys and girls are supposed to be like. There were also few enough of us so that boys and girls didn't automatically segregate themselves. I was left alone, but he was considered by many adults not to be a "real" boy.

My friend seemed to vastly prefer the activities society calls "for girls" and got teased about it. Since he was younger than me by a couple years, I don't know the extent of the teasing, but "You're so gay" was one of the things other kids would say.

My guess is that even though society claims to value so-called masculine pursuits and so-called feminine pursuits equally, it doesn't truly. The activities considered appropriate for girls are not considered appropriate for boys, are of lesser value, and woe to any boy who likes doing them. Girls who were interested in playing with boxcars, toy trains, and who like climbing trees and sports are not ridiculed as much. After all, who wouldn't want to do the things society places more value on?

In my opinion, activities are activities. Do whatever you enjoy, and don't worry about whether someone else thinks it's not appropriate for your set of plumbing. As a seven year old, I thought those rules stupid, I still do. I didn't turn into a boy because I liked playing with hot wheels and stomping around in mud puddles.

But when my friend played barbies with his sister and me, the adults around us got all panicked about it. Most of my group of friends thought it was stupid and none of us ever joined in the adult panic. We just did what we felt like doing and ignored the adults.

Since some people are so caught up in what society values, people who voluntarily give up that birthright are castigated. Gay males are the victims of homophobic hate crimes far more than are lesbians. And no matter what people say, their actions and their attitudes speak louder than lip service about equality.

And if you think we as a society value women and men equally, keep in mind that calling someone a girl and saying that someone does something like a girl is still a deadly insult on the playground. You even see it on DU when someone says that Politician XY needs to grow a set of balls. And we're the enlightened ones.

[Care Bear]

7. You got it.

It's like 'institutionalized racism'. It's ingrained. Sure, from the church and the parents, but it's very deep.

Personally, I think a lot of this institutionalized hatred is based on homosexual panic as well as the fear of heterosexuals, especially men, that they aren't "really" good enough in bed.

[SerpentX]

9. Ahhhh, but it's very selective 'institutional racism'

How many times have two men played out a scene within the covers of Playgirl magazine?

Speaks volumes don't it?

[Care Bear]

29. Very good point.

To tell you the truth, the only time 2 men turn me on is if I'm part of the threesome.

One reason would be what you imply and the other would be that men have been so socialized to the visual and women haven't.

I am not being defensive, however, I understand your point.

[Lexingtonian]

10. It's very old

It goes back to the time when the different cultures constructed their worldview dogmas. Prior to the rise of physical science societies came to beliefs about how the natural world was organized, and these beliefs hardened into dogmas with time.

One rule in almost all pre-Enlightenment cultures was to destroy certain kinds of aberrations in the world, to make a distinction between 'natural' and 'unnatural' and destroy the 'unnatural'. The 'unnatural' tended to be dangerous or lethal- animals with rabies and other diseases, people with tumors and poxes and mental disorders. But in absence of clear knowledge, in times of social stress the difference between 'unnatural' and 'different' became very small. People from foreign places, especially those with whom you did not share any kin, were always suspicious and treated with xenophobia for the most part. After all, they might bring new mysterious killers- diseases, enemies- into the community with themselves.

Homosexuality was rare enough for a lot of groups not to have any experience of it. Village groups tended to be 100-500 people of wide age range, and sexual mores were watched over so closely (to control reproduction and property division and parent care responsibility) that homosexuality was severely suppressed and soon got categorized in with intolerable kinds of sexual practices (adultery, rape, animal sex).

For people of earlier generations things like homosexuality were 'unthinkable', were such crass things at odds with good society to their imaginations and what they had learned, such terra incognita to them, that they find no realistic way of imagining homosexual behavior as continuous with heterosexual behavior. (That's why conservatives often have such lurid but unimaginative ideas about things like homosexuality; it becomes a realm in which their atrophied imaginations run loose in very narrow ruts.)

People these days find homosexuality difficult to get their minds around- they tend to be around the middle of the way from that utter ignorance to fullness of understanding-, so that's where the jokes and crude attempts at humor come from- anxiety of not knowing things well enough to be uninterested in them. And so they treat gay people like they did people of the opposite heterosexual gender in the days when they were full of ignorance about that realm of the human social order- it's 'cooties' and 'I like you so much I have to treat you badly so my friends don't catch on to my fascination/crush on you' and all the other grade school antagonisms all over again, but loaded up with the traumas and vicious dogmatisms and insecurities of adolescence.

[Vernunft II]

24. Homosexuality is condemned by christianity

Pre-christian european societies had a MUCH more relaxed view on homosexuality.

[WoodrowFan]

11. Fear and the Gross-out Factor

I've not understood it myself but I had two ideas..

1. fear. fear that you yourself may be one of "them" which means the negative attributes you associate with "them" will also apply to you.

2. to be honest a lot of straight men find the idea of gay sex "gross." I've noticed how many homophobes like Falwell and Robertson talk about the disgusting aspects of anal sex (santorium!). They seem obsessed by it. They then seem to apply this dislike of a particular sexual practice (real or imagined) onto the entire person. "He does "X" with his partner therefor I hate him." I think straight guys who are not homophobes don't make that last connection. We don't define a person by their personal sexual taste/orientation.

I think MALE* gay sex is gross but hey, I think some hetro sex practices are gross too (like leather and bondage, ick). But it ain't none of my business what two (or more) consenting adults do in their bedroom. I don't judge my straight couple friends by what they may or may not do in bed, why should I judge my gay friends? I'm sure some of them wouldn't like everything what my wife and I do in private either. Hey, I don't like NASCAR or country music either, but to each their own.

*two women getting it on, however, is hot. :P I am sure Robb or Magic Rat will help me out on this one.... LOL

[Puglover]

12. I honestly don't think about what other people

do in their bedrooms. I'm more concerned about my own. I'm a gay guy and since I'm homosexual, hetero sex is somewhat "gross" to me but I don't sit around and think about it. And I certainly am secure enough to not go around proclaiming that to other people.
Funny thing....we have a gay bar in Minneapolis called the Gay 90s. A number of years ago it became somewhat in vogue for straight folks to go see the drag shows. A couple of my co-workers (str8 males) went and breathlessly reported to me how they were groped and man handled by the gay guys in the bar. LOL...when I was younger I spent a fair amount of time at the bars and NEVER did I see ANYONE being "groped" either myself, friends or strangers. Cripes in Minneapolis it was hard to break through that upper midwest ice to TALK with someone much less "manhandle" them. Honestly, I think the whole straight male "grossout" factor is sometimes based in sexual insecurity. I'm certainly not saying straight men are gay but the fact is most people lie somewhere in the middle of the Kinsey scale, and I think that alot of guys even if they have one tiny moment of curiosity freak out and over compensate the other way. Just my humble opinion.

[WoodrowFan]

13. me too

I agree, my point was that a lot of homophobes DO sit around and dwell on it. I don't, any more than I dwell on my straight friends' sex life.

I disagree that the grossout factor is usually sexual insecurity. I think it can be sometimes but a lot of the time I think it's an honest "ewwww."

As for your coworkers, I bet everytime a gay guy brushed against them accidently while trying to move in in a crowded bar they counted it as a "grope."!! LOL.

[Puglover]

15. LOL Woodrow...

I didn't say usually I said sometimes. I would not assume that much on this board and open myself to being slamdunked.

[WoodrowFan]

17. fair enough (grin) NT

[Vernunft II]

26. About your point # 2

the hypocricy is that a huge amount of men (admit it guys !) find lesbian porn highly erotic and the thought of having anal sex with a woman does not gross them out.

As a gay friend of mine once stated, "When the lights are out it doesn´t really matter if the lips around your penis are male or female". I still didn´t feel like giving it a try but he DOES have a point, hehehe.

[Az]

14. Lack of familiarity

Nothing personal, I just fear the unfamiliar. - Marge Simpson

That which we are not familiar with becomes exagerated and fearsome. Due to various factors in our society we tend to isolate ourselves in self made communities. These are made of those most like us. We come to see the world as made of those who are part of our immediate community and all others. Those least like our circles are the most fearsome.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. More than that

Many straight men flat out don't like it. It destroys their comfort zone. They won't want to get naked in locker rooms around gay men. It intrudes into their zone of privacy. And I agree with the other poster that gross out factor is an issue.

It's institutionalized in our culture, but not so much religious as social. Quick, how many current pro athletes are publicly gay?

Answer: None. That culture would ostracize them.

[Puglover]

18. So just for discussion....

What exactly do straight men worry about? And don't give me the "dropping the soap" answer. I love it....how many straight guys oggle and whistle at women making many women uncomfortable and they don't give a shit? Answer....alot. So I find it abit ironic that the big strong straight guys get uncomfortable undressing around a gay man. First of all the chances of a gay guy really coming onto a man in a locker room are slim to none as that's a great way to get your ass punched and secondly why can't they do what I do when anyone (male or female) comes on to me. If I'm not interested I say "no thanks" If the other person isn't bright enough to take that then stronger measures are called for but quite frankly I get tired of the double standard here.

[WoodrowFan]

19. not all worry

frankly I could care less if I were in a locker room with a gay guy. I'd be more embarrased if I found myself in a locker room with gay women!

[Puglover]

20. ROTFL

n/t

[av8rdave]

30. I think what most homophobic men fear most is...

any possibility of being seen as gay by others. The best defense against this in their minds is to disparage gay men at every opportunity - particularly when around people they know well. I'm sure peer pressure contributes to this as well. Gay jokes, disparaging remarks, even being rude to gays or talking about them behind their backs serve to shore up that defense, at least in their minds.

av8rdave

[Az]

32. Yeah well ..... er gays are all a bunch of..... grrr er um

really cool people. Anyone able to stand up to societal pressure to conform and stay true to what they know themself to be gets some extra cool points in my book. Course this doesn't mean a free ride. You guys are gonna have to work to get more cool points. But its a good start.

[Az]

21. That may be due to familiarity with their own

predatory nature. But it is likely still due to their unfamiliarity with the ways gays (I'm a poet .... sigh) operate. Stress comes from that which we do not understand. The less certain we are of a thing the more stress we receive from it.

[Puglover]

22. Very good point...

I agree totally but I try hard (especially as I get older) to enjoy the stress factor of different things and not let them freak me out. Somehow that translates to me to staying flexible and young at heart. Again, I'm not defending ANYONE gay or straight who is inappropriate with a sexual advance however if Im expected to be sensitive to someones "comfort zone" they had better afford me the same courtesy.

[Az]

27. Bonding patterns

Male bonding patterns are often very physical. The discomfort of not knowing how to bond with a man that may have sexual desires for them throws their sense of how to bond with them off. This leaves them unable to fit them into their social landscape.

[Puglover]

31. I know AZ!!!

Just THINK about what us poor gay guys have to deal with. <grin>