Conservative Christians have much higher divorce rates than Atheists.

[JanMichael]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

No irony there:eyes:

Defence of the sanctity of marriage my butt.

Oh and props to the Lutherans and Catholics that tied with the Atheists at 21%:-)

[havocmom]

1. Maybe from argueing about how big a stick is OK for wife beating

his thumb or her thumb?

[JasonBerry]

2. Hummmm

The link is from "ReligiousTOLERANCE.org"

Interesting. There is SO much tolerance for Christians here at DU - as this post once again shows.

BTW, I'm not a Christian. I simply call it like I see it. I can smell hypocrisy a mile away.

[Az]

3. This post is a response

To the religious right's claim to moral superiority on the marriage issue. The claim is that it is a religious institution and that allowing homosexuals access to marriage destroys the sanctity of marriage. The fact that atheists do better in the institution of marriage than the individuals claiming it is a religious institution gives the lie to their claim.

This is not a nya nya infantile kind of observation. It is a very real realization that marriage is not a religious only institution.

[Birthmark]

5. How is citing relevant statistical data "hypocritical?"

[pnb]

9. Relevant statistical data?!?

According to their survey, how are they even determining "Conservative Christian"? Since when is the term conservative part of a religious faith?

Sure, very relevant...

[Az]

13. Here are some corroborating statistics

Research by the Barna Research Group show the following numbers.

Religion % have been divorced
Jews 30%
Born-again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

[pnb]

36. What does that corroborate?

Are you assuming that the Jews and and born-agains are all conservatives? And that the rest are not?

I still fail to see where the data is relevant to the conclusion.

[Az]

40. The conclusion

On the part of the religious right is that marriage is a religious institution. It is their claim that those that do not abide by their religious views are destroying the institution of marriage. They decry the increase of failed marriages as evidence of this destruction. The evidence presented shows that those most removed form their religious tenents (atheists) do not show this tendency. It shows that the failure in marriage is higher amongst those they claim are the defenders of the institution of marriage.

[pnb]

55. What about the religious left?

Perhaps they are the ones getting the divorces. It is incorrect to single out right or left from this study because it makes no mention of political ideology...except when it just assumes that certain types of religious are all on the right. That is illogical. You are doing the exact same thing as the website did.

The numbers have nothing to do with the conclusion yet you see it as proof of the conclusion. Makes no sense.

[Birthmark]

14. That's fine.

If you have a problem with the data or methodology, then fine. However, making the leap to hypocrisy is illogical and unfair to the poster.

[pnb]

38. Maybe, maybe not

My post was directed more towards your claim that the data was relevant to the conclusion that was drawn. I would believe the poster would find it hypocritical due to the fact that an organization that supposedly is about tolerance would be so intolerant as to draw conclusions without showing data to back it up.

I would believe the same thing.

[LeahMira]

72. Surveys and Polls...

... if done well will not only give respondents to describe their own religious commitment but will also ask questions designed to evaluate the level of commitment as demonstrated by actual religious behavior.

For example, the Jewish Population Survey asks whether a respondent self-identifies as orthodox, conservative, reform, or secular. Other questions in the survey ask whether the respondent lights Sabbath candles or attended a Passover seder this year as well as whether the respondent considers Jewish values in making life decisions or if s/he feels that it's important for American Jews to support Israel.

It is quite possible to determine whether a respondent is or is not a fundamentalist Christian in much the same way. I don't know if the survey in this case actually asked these kinds of questions, but you might want to look at the footnoted references to determine the validity of the conclusions.

[JasonBerry]

11. Tolerance?

Trumpeting divorce statistics that seem to show that "religious" people encounter more divorce is just another attempt to marginalize believers. I find that funny from a site calling for religious "tolerance." Let's face it - the fundamentalist wing of the atheist vanguard don't want religious tolerance! It seems the open-season on Christians is what is, not only tolerated, but heavily promoted by many here at DU.

This "data" is of no importance at all, except in the ability to throw it in the faces of those who claim a religious faith. That is hardly religious "tolerance."

[Birthmark]

15. Tolerance, schmolarnce.

This is about "holier than thou" types being "less holy" than just about anyone when measured in terms of divorce. I believe that the point is that if who want to defend marriage are serious that they should stop getting divorced at the drop of a condom.

[Az]

18. There is no judgement attached

I support people getting divorces if they need to. If they are wise enough to realise the relationship is not working then I say end it. There is not some attempt to moralize behind these numbers. There is no suggestion being made that atheists are better than theists.

It simply putting the lie to the claim of the right that the heathens and homosexuals are at cause for any loss of sanctity of the institution of marriage. The fact is more Christians per capita terminate their marriage vows than atheists.

If atheists or other individuals considered by the religious right to be destroyers of values are doing better at marriage than the Christians then it is not the atheists that are detroying the sanctity of marriage. It is even arguable that the sanctity of marriage is not even in trouble.

[Beearewhyain]

23. "the fundamentalist wing of the atheist vanguard "

Could you provide a link because I think I may want to join. I know how atheist have such a long and glorious history of religious oppression but I didn't know we were part of a "vanguard". I haven't found them because most of my fellow atheist simply don't talk religion. I must be under the false impression that as an atheist, religion is simply not an issue as long as someone is not pushing it. Thanks for this new information, I will endeavor to join my brethren and follow in our tradition of subjugating dissent.

[JasonBerry]

25. The vanguard? You're here!

You obviously don't read DU. This place has become a hotbed of religious intolerance and Atheistic fundamentalism. It's so incredibly hypocritical it's sickening. Funny the Islamic faith isn't bashed here -- no -- that would be bigotry! Open season on Christians at DU and it's applauded.

[Beearewhyain]

28. Forgive my ignorance

But could you explain what "Atheistic fundamentalism" is.

[Az]

30. There are some

That speak more forcefully than they should. The more aggregious comments are eliminated. There are communication issues that each side needs to work out. Perhaps you could suggest how we should moderate ourselves. What sort of comments do you consider to be typical of the hypocracy? Let us focus on how to improve the relations rather than just continue pointing fingers at each other.

[JasonBerry]

39. That's a good question

I think that is truly an excellent question. I don't know that I have the quick answer, but I'll be thinking about it and hope others will as well.

I want to thank you for the thoughtful reply. You seem to recognize the diversity of thought on issues of faith and would like to see a halfway point of acceptance - for all beliefs - here at DU. To me, that's a beginning.

[Donkeyboy75]

65. I don't see Christians being bashed,

I see Christians that try to tell others how to live their lives or right wing nutjobs getting bashed. I also see fundamentalist Islam and Judaism being bashed. And rightly so. Religious extremism is one of the most deadly forces in the world today.

[Exultant Democracy]

29. Yeah it seems like a complicated term to me

I guess if I scrunch up my eyes and empty out a little bit of common sense I can see the vanguard part. The "fundamentalist wing of the atheist" on the other hand seems to have the logical consistency of "this sentence is a lie."

[LeahMira]

74. Actions do speak louder than words...

Trumpeting divorce statistics that seem to show that "religious" people encounter more divorce is just another attempt to marginalize believers.

There is a whole lot of the "do as I say, not as I do" out there.

I think we all realize that there are many fine men and women who live excellent lives, many of whom identify as Christians. Generally these are not the people who are nattering on about the evil in the rest of the world. They are quietly creating good in their own lives and in the lives of those who know them.

The problem, as I see it, lies with the people who insist that doing right isn't so important as believing right. One would think that if a person truly believed what Jesus taught, their lives would be exemplary. Unfortunately, many folks believe that they are saved without having made the commitment to acting well on a day-to-day basis because, after all, no matter how poorly they act they imagine that they are already forgiven.

Others of us, Christian or not, demand more of ourselves.

[lapislzi]

16. How is the post intolerant of Christians?

He's stating facts.

I also disagree with your (ironic) statement about tolerance for Christians on DU. With a few exceptions, DUers are thoughtful and tolerant of people of all stripe. And for the exceptions...well, that's what the "ignore" feature is for.

[Maeve]

20. Please check out the site before dissing them

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

I have used their extensive site to defend Wiccans, Christians and a variety of groups. They are very good at documenting their essays and articles.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. A pictorial consideration

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Reworded for clarity

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xray s]

4. I demand a constitutional amendment banning divorce

That would make a whole lot of hypocritical Republican politicians criminals, starting with their holy icon, Ronnie Reagan, down to their media hero, Rush Limbaugh.

I also demand a constitutional amendment to ban all country & western songs that talk about cheating on your spouse.

Country and western songs are this country's greatest threat to marriage.

And I demand a constitutional amendment that all future Presidents have an IQ over 100 and be able to talk in full coherent sentences, without a TelePrompter. We must never allow another moron puppet to occupy the White House again.

[JitterbugPerfume]

7. their divorce rate is higher because

NO BODY CAN LIVE WITH ONE OF'EM

[JasonBerry]

12. Religious bigotry

\Big"ot*ry\, n. 1. The state of mind of a bigot; obstinate and unreasoning attachment of one's own belief and opinions, with narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them.

It seems to me that the hardened attitudes from so many here at DU fit the above definition perfectly.
"Narrow-minded intolerance of beliefs opposed to them." hummm.

No other group would it be tolerated for DUers to slam and beat up on. Why do so many find it so acceptable to talk this way of another group with which they disagree?

[DrWeird]

19. Why are you defending conservative christians?

These are the same bigots who want to outlaw gay marriage.

It's like calling somebody a bigot because they hate KKK members.

Intolerance maybe. But it's well founded, not narrowminded.

[JasonBerry]

24. wrong

You are speaking as if "gay marriage" has been on the books. In fact, "gay marriage" is something that has never been seen as legal in the United States. A Christian who opposes "gay marriage" is hardly a bigot. This is a far, far, far-left view. I am not a Christian. I simply see clearly that they are the only group that it seems fashionable to slam at every opportunity. To think that merely being a Christian puts one in the "way out" category with so many here at DU says more about the far-left than it does Christianity.

[DrWeird]

27. No, people who oppose gay marriage are bigots.

Just like people who oppose interracial marriage are bigots. 96% of whites in 1958 were against interracial marriage, it was wrong then it is wrong now.

That's pretty obvious.


"I simply see clearly that they are the only group that it seems fashionable to slam at every opportunity. To think that merely being a Christian puts one in the "way out" category with so many here at DU says more about the far-left than it does Christianity. "

This thread, which you will know if you have read it, is about fundamentalist conservative christians, the religious right. And it's because of my respect for christians and other human beings that I slam them. They're definitely conversative, but hardly christian.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

59. That's exactly right-they aren't true Christians

They are a Doomsday Cult that rejects 90% of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Conservative, they are-Christian, they ain't.

[Misinformed01]

32. JBerry: Yep. Guilty as charged

Fundies can kiss my ass.

You want intolerance, baby, you got it.

[Az]

47. I have to agree

This was an unnecissary shot at a religious view. People have beliefs. Its the nature of the species. Some people believe things others do not. This does not make them monsters. They have as many feelings as anyone else.

[LiberalFighter]

56. Let them have their beliefs..

and I will not have a problem with them. Their feelings will be respected.

The only stipulation I have is that their beliefs be kept within their church, within their home and within the groups that they exist for religious purposes. But their beliefs should not be forced on the unwilling or pushed on the public.

When they do express their belief in a public forum it should be in a modest way and sincerely. To boast only demeans their faith and their religion and shows that they fear the negatives of their religion.

When they want prayer at schools, at athletic events, at public events and other locations. Their religious faith becomes less important. Why would anyone want it to be everywhere? Aren't those places such as church and home more special and more spiritual and gives more meaning to their belief when the place and time is selective?

When prayer is held at athletic events why would people want to conduct it with people they do not know. Wouldn't it give more meaning if their belief is shared with those that they invite personally?

[progressivebydesign]

43. So true... N/T

[Az]

45. And yet many do

Many people of opposing religious beliefs are in real loving relationships. A visit to a Unitarian Universalist church will show you that people of varying beliefs and cultures can easily get along and even love each other.

Look to other reasons for the statistics. This is an empty path.

[stopbush]

8. How about an amendment banning conservative Xtians from

marrying in the first place?

It actually makes more sense than banning gay marriages - at least if you wish to lower divorce rates!

[stopbush]

10. What do you get when you play a C&W record backwards?

You get your dog back...

you get your gun back...

you get your truck back...

you get your house back...

you get your girl back...

[alfredo]

6. Atheist believe in taking responsibility for one's life.

fate or pre destination are cop outs. Our word is our bond, we have no devils, demons, or "God's Will" to blame for our failures.

That could have something to do with the lower divorce rate. It could also be that there is less pressure on the Atheist to get married, have kids, and pretend to be what they are not.

[progressivebydesign]

48. I posted below about that whole "inner demons" thing...

I believe many of those people are attracted to a religion that relieves them of responsibility for their actions, for their past behaviors, and their personal problems. That whole born-again things is just too cultish to me. Interesting how three things have returned from the recession-era 1970s. 1) disco music (DJs, techno, dance music). 2) Atkins diet (a bit cultish and faddish) 3) Born-again Christianity (again, cultish and faddish). Wonder what the correlation is....

[alfredo]

62. The US seems to always recycle the past few decades. It is a fad.

Just as long as they don't bring back the 14th century, we will be OK>

[JHB]

17. As an atheist whose family is Catholic and Lutheran...

...I thank you for the props. The percentage is about average for the family, too, counting out to cousins.

[BiggJawn]

21. My first wife was a Pentecostal...

Yeah, there's a joke in there somewhere ("first wife"), but anyway,
When we first got together, she'd introduce me to her friends from church like "This is Sister so-and-so, who used to be married to Brother so-and-so, who's now married to Sister "A" who was married to Brother "Q"...."

I said "What is this? A den of holy-roller bed-hoppers?"

No, seems that if you were unhappy with your spouse, and you found somebody new, you both could "pray about it" and if god would grant you a "Spirital Divorce" then you could go ahead and split up your respective familes. Of course, now your ex-spouses were free to go "pray about it" and find someone new, too...

Reminded me of Nuclear Physics...Splitting elements to form new elements....

Guess these folks didn't know you don't have to MARRY then to Schtupp them...

[progressivebydesign]

46. My husbands ex-wife, a born again, left him for another married born-again

after having an affair while they were both with their spouses. Her born-again boyfriend had a previous wife and child he left before that marriage.. I think many people that are drawn into that cult-like addiction to Christianity have many other problems... Most often they are the ones who'll proclaim that they have "demons" that they are fighting.. and look to Jesus to help them out of addictions, personal problems, lack of success, etc. Another born-again acquaintance was fired from his job for acts of perversion... a fine married man who picketed the local adult store in town! He is now working with youth at a church out of state. There are some people who are attracted to the whole born-again, or evangelical thing for good reasons.. but many, many more who are there because they cannot handle things inside themselves. Let go, let God, and all that.

[LiberalFighter]

58. I don't remember anything like that happening in the bible

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. Ohhhh but you see, atheists are not REALLY married

coz their marriage ain't blessed by God. Therefore, they are all FORNICATING!!! </sarcasm>

[Lars39]

26. I know you said that in jest,

but it triggered a thought: could it get to a point where the only marriages that are recognized by the government are those performed in a church? No more justice of the peace ceremonies for "heathens"?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

31. Kind of a stretch but that seems to be the general direction

those folks are steering the ship towards. :scared:

[Lars39]

37. Another thought:

if that Is the direction they're heading, then maybe civil unions should be the goal. Make a church ceremony the icing on the cake, but have everybody get the courthouse version as the legally binding ceremoney.

[GinaMaria]

57. or a change in status for some

What may happen is that 'religeon' may try to take the word marriage so that it applies only to marriages created in religeous ceremonies. Those that had civil or secular services will be termed 'Civil Unions'. It's wrong IMHO. My husband and I had a secular service we wrote ourselves. What we have is a marriage, not a civil union.

[LiberalFighter]

60. Is that why they are using the "marriage is a sacred institution"

What will the "heathens" do for marriage?

[Lars39]

68. Heathens aren't citizens, or that's what both Bushes have said.

Maybe.... you aren't churched in the correct church, you don't deserve rights? Scary. It's been probably a year or more ago, but I remember some repub group that stated what religions they didn't recognize as a religion. I think one of them was the UU.
I wish I had saved the article, or could remember the group's name.

[LiberalFighter]

75. Dominionists

The believers who are destined to rule are called the “elect,” and are separated from those believers who do not and will not accept the predestined superiority of the chosen ruling class. A Christian who raises his voice against the “elect” could be labeled a “false prophet or a dreamer of dreams,” and therefore, according to the Deuteronomic law “shall be put to death.”

[Misinformed01]

33. Thank you for writing that!

That makes my marriage seem so exciting and sexy!

[arrogantatheist1000]

35. GREAT FIND, thanks for posting it.

When you never blame yourself for anything, and blame it on god.. AND any terrible things you do like cheating you can walk into church and get absolution the next day of course your marriages don't last.

Before I met my current girlfriend, I was a single guy and would hit on married older women, because I found they were the easiest to sleep with. This is what I found, the more religious the woman, the far more easy it was to cheat with her. Seriously for you single guys out there this is a gold mine, and their religious husbands think god is looking out for them too. And they are the types likely to 'believe' what their wife tells them.

They would make up all these amazing and funny reasoning why it was ok they were cheating, I would tell my friends about their reasons after much to their amusement.

But the thing is with non religious women, they do want to cheat, but they also know they will feel terrible for lying and deceiving their husbands. Whereas the religious women would show up for church 'confess' their sins and feel fine. JESUS DIED FOR OUR SINS!!!

They themselves have told me it feels wonderful to absolve yourself, and for that reason I should join church. Whereas atheist women which are hella few LUCKILY for me, would just say no I can't do this sorry.

I have time and again told people about this, and they always say NO NO NO, religious people aren't like that. I used to be frustrated by this, now I just smile and say ok and MASS take advantage of it.

[Synthesis]

41. These statistics may be meaningless

The essay is not clear on what they mean by "divorce rates." The statistic given is "% who have been divorced." Unless this is weighted against the actual percentage of people from such a group that get married at all, it is not a meaningful statistic. For example, if only 40 percent of atheists get married in their life, and of those 50 percent of them get a divorce, the "divorce rate," by the method apparently used in this study, would register as 20 percent for atheists. Whereas if 90 percent of Christians get married and 33 percent of them divorce, then the rate would register as 30 percent by the study's methods. The really relevant statistic is what percentage of marriages last, depending on the group.

[newyawker99]

44. Hi Synthesis!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Synthesis]

49. Hi

Thanks for the welcome!

[varun]

50. link

http://www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html

The Associated Press 12/30/99 1:31 AM Eastern

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- Baptists have the highest divorce rate of any
Christian denomination, and are more likely to get a divorce than
atheists and agnostics, according to a national survey.

The survey conducted by Barna Research Group in Ventura, Calif., found
that 29 percent of all adult Baptists have been through a divorce. Among
Christian groups, only those who attend non-denominational Protestant
churches were more likely to be divorced, with a 34 percent divorce rate....

..."While it may be alarming to discover that born-again Christians are more
likely than others to experience a divorce, that pattern has been in
place for quite some time," said George Barna, president of Barna
Research Group.

A Birmingham minister, the Rev. Stacy Pickering, said the numbers are
skewed because Baptist churches encourage young people to get married --
sometimes before they're ready -- before living together....
----------------------------------------------------------------
I also heard that "shotgun weddings" are more common in the south (conservative states) than elsewhere.

Whatever the reason for divorce, the statistics here tell us that just because one is "devoutly religious", does not make them believe in "sanctity of marriage"
;)

[Synthesis]

52. This appears to say the same thing as the essay

It's still not clear on what is meant by "divorce rate" and it goes on to draw conclusions in reference to the whole, rather than the segment that has actually been married. You guys see how crucial a distinction this is, right? I'd like to see the original data.

[Synthesis]

53. found something...

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=95&Reference=B

This appears to be the same study, a year later. The results in the graph at the bottom are in terms of relative percentages. I'm going to do some calculations to see if i can derive the data from the original essay based on this.

[Synthesis]

54. As suspected

I calculated the percentages given in the religious tolerance article from the table given on the real study's page, and reproduced the numbers exactly. Just multiply the percentage (in decimal form) of the "percent married at least once" collumn with the "percent of those that were divorced" to get these results. The religious tolerance article is thus quite misleading.

[varun]

63. No, this is a different study...

the one that I posted was conducted in 1999 on 3854 adults ...

http://www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html


the one you posted as conducted on 7043 adults in 2001.

http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PagePressRelease.asp?PressReleaseID=95&Reference=B

Both came up with different results.

[Synthesis]

70. you are correct

Same institution though, and actually the results are practically the same. If you do the math I suggested, you will replicate the results given in the original article you posted.

[NC_Nurse]

51. Hi Synthesis!

Welcome to DU!
Great post too!
Personally I think all marriages should be civil unions in the eyes of the govt. and what people do with their beliefs about the institution and its "sanctity" is their own damn business!:)

[Cary]

69. Welcome Synthesis, and sorry but . . .

I have to argue with you (but note I do it with a smile).

The real significance is that there is no significance to claim of moral superiority coming from the right.

They are not morally superior to us. They are not. They are not. They are not.

And it's important that we know that and that we shoot them down, whenever possible, for claiming moral superiority.

[Synthesis]

71. that the right is not morally superior

is a fine claim to make. But the article posted wasn't arguing that--it was making a claim about Christians.

[Cary]

73. Very true, and sorry.

I may be wrongfully equating conservatives with the religious right, and thank you for pointing that out to me. It's easy to get carried away here.

But I still think, generally, that claims of moral superiority, from the right, are not well-taken. The fact that moral Christians identify with the left is, I think, only more evidence that my assertion is correct.

And, again, sorry if I offended you or any other Christian. That wasn't my intent.

[tom_paine]

61. LOL

Figures.

[shivaji]

64. I guess it is alright to screw around as long as you do it one marriage

at a time!

[Endangered Specie]

66. Irony often comes in large quantities