Sign in front of Colorado Church: "Jews Killed the Lord Jesus"

[jackstraw45]

Details here:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/2873395/detail.html

Ah, here we are in 2004, with a church fanning the flames of hate....

How "Christian"....

:eyes:

[kodi]

1. oddly, such hate kills the christ paul says resides in each of us.

when will science find the stupid gene in these people?

[Ksec]

2. Hmmm

So just for histories sake should we rewrite anything that is degrading to any race?

Look I understand why Jesus died but I dont see why anyone should be above history. The Jews were the good guys too /

[jackstraw45]

3. Sorry, not following your point...

Could you rephrase that?

[yellowcanine]

4. What is the "History" to which you refer?

I hope you aren't claiming that the New Testament is history?

[boilerbabe]

77. New or Old Testement..

Good Reading, but hard to follow, and those that will spin it to their heart's content....
Wish they'd constrain themselves to 'Cat in the Hat"
people will always take those bible things and twist em to what they would like to see...
Glad I stopped reading that stuff when I was 11...

[wellstone_democrat]

5. The Romans did

Neither Jews nor any other subject people in the Roman Empire took it upon themselves to try and execute anyone. That is the perogative of the rulers. The *histories* and records are clear on the history of this region in the time frame in question.

Cute trying the "p.c." angle but the Romans executed the man Christians call the "Christ" thats history plain and simple.

[Ksec]

7. Not according to the Jews

which say Jews were complicit to the death. Most Christians believe the same.

Should we also rewrite Shindlers List because it makes Germans look bad?

How about all the movies that show the British to be Imperialistic?

Slippery slope here.

[Cassandra]

8. Where do Jews say...

that Jews were complicit?

[Ksec]

11. ancient texts

I heard it from a few different Rabbis which said their texts(I dont know the names) concluded that Jews were "complicit" in the death of Jesus.

I dont blame anyone other than the whole crew which had a mixture of different peoples but to try to excuse the Jews is inaccurate . They played a role of corrupt money changers which is what Jesus despised more than anything else.

[BurtWorm]

12. Ancient Jewish texts are totally silent about Jesus

which seems to indicate there never was a Jesus. The blood libel is really, truly, profoundly a libel, accusing a whole people for all time for a "crime" that never actually happened.

[greekspeak]

43. I suggest you look at some ancient Rabbinic literature

You will see that Jesus is mentioned, if not explicitly, then implicitly.

[BurtWorm]

80. Be specific.

Quote the text in question. Include the date of the text as well.

[ikojo]

71. "Ancient Jewish texts?"

What do you mean? The only Jewish texts that hold weight in ANY branch of Judaism (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist) are the TANAKH (called the Old Testament by Christians and almost everyone else except observant Jews) and the Talmud. I am no Talmudic scholar but I don't think the Talmud gives Jesus much space. I may go to morning minyan tomorrow and will be more than glad to ask the rabbi this question if he is there.

Oy!

[ArkDem]

83. Oy, indeed!

.

[jackstraw45]

19. Why not say "money changers?"

If a banker commits fraud and is hauled off to jail, and he happens to be buddhist, would you say, "That buddhist is a crook!" ? ? ?

They were all Jews or Romans at that time yet instead of placing blame on individuals, the "jews" as a whole are defamed and have been throughout time.

Hmm, money changers...are those the same ones who "run hollywood?"

[Ksec]

47. why not say Jews?

Both would be accurate but one is more PC I suppose.

[Capn Sunshine]

29. "I heard it from a few Rabbis"

okie doke.........

[scottcsmith]

59. Excuse me

Bullshit. No Jewish text states that we're in any way responsible for the death of Jesus. We don't even believe in his divinity, why would our Talmud include any reference to Jews being responsible for deicide? That's just crazy.

[wellstone_democrat]

10. What "Jews" claim responsibility?

And, why would they use crucifixtion? Their method for execution was stoning. They were an occupied people, they did not run the courts. The Roman Governor gave the order---a governor who was remarkable even in that empire for his "zeal" in meting out the death sentence.

BTW, I've not only read the Roman histories of the period, I've read a great deal of it in the original Latin. Most Christians, in the modern day, do NOT believe that the Jews killed Christ. It was, however, a feature of the 15th-19th century western Christian Church and still lingers in some sects---its generally known as the "Blood Libel"

"Some Rabbis?" Those must be some interesting Rabbis! They must have secret information or you misunderstood their statements on complicity. I cannot think of one source through the 12th century that makes any such claim. And, that's so long after the events that it is essentially opinion rather than evidence.

correct on edit: their from the

[jackstraw45]

13. What about discrimination?

I was called a "dirty jew" in Kindergarden by a 5th grader simply because I was Jewish.

I can only imagine there are some kinds who will be called similar names in Colorado because of the ignorance displayed by that sign.

[ConsAreLiars]

15. "the Jews" ---- Wow!

What a bizarre notion.
Then "Germans" and "the British." Do a little research. Maybe study the differences between "some" and "all" and "then" and "now." Maybe a reality check is in order.

Any statement that is not explicitly contextualized which relies on categories like the following always betrays ab irrational and dangerously deluded view of how things work.

"The Jews"
"The Huns"
"The Gays"
"The Liberals"
"The Gooks"
"The Deists"
"The Infidels"
"The Moslems"
"The Unbelievers"
etc.
ad nauseum

(edit: add missing word)

[LeahMira]

20. Is it a fact?

Should we also rewrite Shindlers List because it makes Germans look bad?

No, only if the book presents itself as fact and is really fiction.


How about all the movies that show the British to be Imperialistic?

Weren't they very much so at one time?

Look, no problem with the Christian Testament or the Passion film as long as everyone understands that it's historical fiction... probably pretty light on the historical part. If some folks find it inspiring, again, no problem. Most of us don't give creationism much attention, so why give the Christian Testament so much?

[Ksec]

45. any proof that the new test is fiction or just more anti christian BS?

Im hearing you folks say that this is fiction . So show me the proof that you have that proves this fiction?

[_Jumper_]

6. Post #5 explained it

Even if a few Jews had did it, why smear an entire group for the actions of a few?

[Ksec]

46. Romans did it is not blaming a entire group? nt

[salin]

23. what do you think is the purpose of the sign?

or perhaps they put a benign "history lesson" out each week... Next week: 'Edison invented the lightbulb' Or perhaps: 'the crusades were right.' Maybe: 'Remember the Catholic Inquisition'

A factual statement (which there seems to be some disagreement over, btw) - can still be intentionally inflamatory - and in some contexts... incendiary.

[Touchdown]

9. Ah' yes. The ...get this..."Loving Way" Pentecostal Church.

:eyes: "The Rev. Maruice Gordon". This guy is just a coupled of steps nicer than Fred Phelps in Topeka.

This, ahem, "LOVING WAY church" is on a main thoroughfare (Colorado Blvd. ...the heaviest traffic in the state), and his signs are always as hateful as this.

But...you know what's funny? Right accross the street is a Bally's Gym that has the largest gay clientel in the city!...I forgot the no tell motel next door as well.LOL!

What a PITAPOS!

Edited...to emphasize the Loving Way, because there is no sense of irony there.;-)

[MrBadExample]

36. Ugh.

I work a few blocks from this church. Actually, the signs had been getting less hateful for a while, at least on the north-facing side that I always drive by.

This, though...just ugh. Just when I thought they were starting to get all rational and compassionate on us, this bit of ugliness comes out.

I'm going to start telling people I live in Delaware or something. (There's nothing embarrassing about Delaware, is there?)

[LeahMira]

39. Oh, we have our issues...

I'm going to start telling people I live in Delaware or something. (There's nothing embarrassing about Delaware, is there?)

We are terribly accommodating to corporations, which is why they all locate here.

Then, in northern Delaware we have Motiva and we're right across the river from the Salem nuclear plant, and in slower Delaware (southern, or lower Delaware) we have good old Frank Perdue and his chicken poop polluting the water and the ground.

I'm considering an Indian reservation myself. :-)

[scarface2004]

14. that s the church bush belongs to isn t it??

well isn t it????

[jackstraw45]

25. Well, considering Bush told a reporter in 1993

that "Jews are going to hell," I'm not surprised....

[KharmaTrain]

63. Source?

I'm no * defender, but I surely would have noticed this comment (as would have other Jews). Do you have a source or a link to this comment? I'd appreciate.

[_Jumper_]

67. What Christian doesn't believe that non-Christians are going to "hell"?

Virtually every religion is a "my way or the highway" religion, hence the myriad of wars started because of religion.

[ikojo]

73. Judaism is not a my way or the highway religion.

Jews believe Judaism is right FOR JEWS but that ALL righteous people have a share in the world to come. One need NOT be Jewish. Now within the Jewish community there are intense disagreements. Some within the orthodox community would love nothing more than if every Jew was orthodox but that is not going to happen.

Even though Jews do not recognize the divinity of Jesus they do recognize that the Christian religion is right FOR CHRISTIANS.

[hatrack]

58. No, Bush is a Methodist

FWIW . . .

[Mick Knox]

16. Thats a damn stupid thing to do...

dumb assholes.

[Codeblue]

17. I hate this

Fanatics like this are always making Colorado look bad. I wish the crazy religious nuts and crazy conservatives would just move somewhere else.

[Mick Knox]

18. Im not one of the ones On DU

who runs around thread to thread raving about fundies.. I havent gone to church in years for my own reasons.. but I have nothing against christians...

When they do stupid crap like that ... which serves no good purpose... it pisses me off.

Not one single good thing can happen because they did that.

It's most certainly not Christian. If youre a True Christian you believe Jesus killed Jesus for everyone... He died for us.. He made the choice. not one certain group was responsible... we are all responsible. A Christian should be smart enough to know that as the son of god, no one could kill him unless it was allowed by Jesus.


Their sign is irresponsible and disgusting to say the least.

[northofdenali]

21. Disgusting.

Here's the church's email: [e-mail]

Go to it, DU'ers. Whether or not some Jews were involved, whether or not this is history or myth, whether or not the Bible says it or ancient Jewish texts say it, THIS SIGN IS MEANT TO INFLAME HATRED.

There is NO excuse.

[laylah]

61. Did the e-mail thing...

and all I said was "God is watching your ignorance...and S/He weeps".

Jenn

Edited for punctuation.

[tom_paine]

22. Imperial Amerika is going backwards

Totalitarianism, Orwellianism, racism, classism, all on the rise.

Bad news for the Enlightenment. It's time of holding sway might be over.

Calling Pat Roberston: The New dark Ages you've been prying for is about to begin.

[LeahMira]

24. Christians... is this what YOU believe?

If not, please take some time to contact the church.

[e-mail]

[mac2]

33. Nope...

Presbyterians never blamed anyone for his death. He died for our sins....

Actually, I'm a recovering Christian. I'm sick of the hatred and greed of today's church organizations and their leaders.

[mac2]

26. If I lived in that community, I call and tell them that is pure hate....

It is not true...we all killed him to save us from sin. Who knows...when Jesus was born, died, looked like, who killed him...there are no records. The books were written 200 years after the event.

We know more about Caesar than Jesus from historical records.

See...the RWer Protestants will turn on the Jews who support their religious agenda and wars. They hate Islam...Jews are next...Catholics after that.

We have to have respect for each other's ethnic background and religion/or none to live in peace.

Their sign might be....bring me your greed and hate. I am the true leader of the church of God.

[ArkDem]

27. I wonder what Al Sharpton would say about this?

.

[Touchdown]

28. Drove by the "LOVING WAY" church Today.

He took the sign down. Probably since it's national news...He doesn't care if the locals complain.:eyes:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. To be fair... churches change signs every week anyway, don't they? (nt)

[Touchdown]

49. Actually, this sign first appeared yesterday.

I didn't get to see it live. I heard from co-workers that he took it down last night. So, it hasn't been a week.

[mac2]

30. Isn't this the Church Johnnie Ashcroft goes to? His father a minister?

Hope, there is more love than that in this flock. They seem to be ignorant of the principles of Christian life and belief.

[Touchdown]

50. Alright! Even though we have to calim this nutjob in Colorado...

We do NOT have to claim Asscroft! He is from Springfield Missouri...900 miles away! All square states do not look alike.;-)

[sunnynair]

31. God's Plan

Wasn't it God's Marshall Plan to send Jesus down to earth to die for our sins ? If that's so, does it really matter who killed Jesus . It was all part of the plan.

[mac2]

32. You got it right!! I heard a clergy say so on radio.

[HawkerTyphoon]

66. "god's plan"

"Wasn't it God's Marshall Plan to send Jesus down to earth to die for our sins ?"

So, shouldn't we be thanking whoever killed him? I mean, if he hadn't died, our 'sins' wouldn't have been forgiven.

Do I have that right?

[magnolia]

35. I'm becoming disgusted with....

...all religion...Christians and Jews alike. They both annoy the hell out of me!!!

Christians: Isn't the whole basis of the religion that Jesus died for your sins. Wasn't it God...who...according to John 3:16 "...so loved the world he gave his only begotten son to die...."!!!! If it was God's will that Jesus would die...why squabble over who did it. If Jesus wouldn't have died...I guess we would all have to pay for our sins with eternal hell fires and damnation.

Jews: For two thousand years the Romans have been held responsible for killing Jesus. Yet you don't see the Italians whining and complaining. They haven't been persecuted for it, nor do they feel persecuted.

[LeahMira]

38. Sure...

Jews: For two thousand years the Romans have been held responsible for killing Jesus. Yet you don't see the Italians whining and complaining. They haven't been persecuted for it, nor do they feel persecuted.


Italian persecution is not going to happen with Italian Popes calling the shots.

[jackstraw45]

40. Incredibly naive....

"They haven't been persecuted for it, nor do they feel persecuted."

The Jews have been repeatedly persecuted for it. That's the POINT!

It's not a question of feelings. It's fact.

<edited to add quotes>

[ms_splash]

42. So sorry to "whine" and "complain"

Hey, I don't feel persecuted. But, history has taught us not to get too comfortable.

Boy, my husband is italian AND jewish...he must be really guilty!

It's not paranoia if someone is really out to get you.

[drdigi420]

37. i see signs that say 'jesus is lord'

the moral: dont believe everything you read

(edited for typo)

[eleny]

41. Colorado and Mississippi - that should get a lot of attention

Colorado Blvd. is a huge street with tons of traffic.

[enki23]

44. if its history shows anything...

it's that there's nothing whatsoever 'unchristian' about hate. we all hate somebody, probably lots of somebodies. whether we the think bible condones it, or not, doesn't really much matter.

[fob]

48. ??? Wasn't jesus jewish? Or a jew?

I remember my first "My Boss Was A Jewish Carpenter" bumpersticker and going WTF!?! to myself. Why is that guy so into his boss? Where does he work, cause I wanna work for someone so effing cool that I fel compelled to have a bumpersticker that shouts out how effing cool he/she is! My boss at the time was a lame-brain WASP. That is not a very inspiring bumpersticker.

Anyway, I got it all 'splained to me and I'm better now. So back to my point, which is, What's the point?

Is this supposed to signal that Judaism is a lesser religion because "jews" killed a "jewish carpenter"? I think if anything one could argue that by choosing for his ONLY SON to be a jewish carpenter that god pretty much showed his bias right there.

No offense to anyone, I'm strictly "there is no god" so I don't have a dog(get it dog = god spelled backwards) in this fight. Maybe I'm not better...

Quack, quack!

fob

[E-Z Rider]

52. exactly

Jews still remain Gods' "chosen people" (according to the Bible, anyways). And yes, Jesus was a Jew. Jewish prophecy says there is a messiah. Christians belive Jesus was the messiah, Jews don't. That's really the extent of the fundamental important differences.

There's no reason to think Jews are lesser b/c they 'killed Jesus'.

Moreover, I don't think I've heard anybody proclaiming that the movie is convincing them to hate Jews. To me, the fuss over all this is caused by people who are for some reason obsessing over anything that portrays anything Jewish in a negative light as "anti-semetic".

[_Jumper_]

68. So God is a racist?

n/t

[E-Z Rider]

69. you're funny

[E-Z Rider]

51. wtf is all of this debate about anyways?

If you are dead intent on placing guilt on Jesus's death, you can clearly narrow it down to two parties- the Romans and the Pharisees. From there, determining the extent to which each party is responsible is more difficult, and there's not a whole lot of objective information to support a strong conclusion.

But even if you were to assume that it was Jewish people who are completely responsible for his death, there is absolutely no reason for hatred now, or even back then.

It's pretty clear that the Pharisees were fairly corrupt- their interpretations of religion were politically motivated. And as we all know, when politics and religion combine, corruption inevitably results.

The same type of thing is evident in Christianity, most notably in old Roman Catholicism, but to an extent in nearly every denomination past or present. This type of corruption is not a characterisitic of any individual religion, but rather of humans in general.

And why people focus so much on the death of Christ is beyond me. All that needs to be known is that He died. The political reasons or race of people who had him killed don't matter.

What is much more important to Christianity itself is the resurrection. I mean, it's the whole damn point of the religion. If Jews (or whomever) HADN'T killed Jesus, then we wouldn't have the ability to be saved. Dying (and then rising) was the whole point of Jesus's existence.

Saying that Jews killed Jesus is not anti-Semetic. Jews undoubtedly had a part in killing Jesus. The extent of that part is still a gray area...but the extent doesn't matter.

My point, in fact: it doesn't matter. Chill out.

[E-Z Rider]

53. where does it say Jews should be hated?

It's just quoting some Bible verse. Most Christians don't see any reason to hate Jews b/c they killed Jesus. I think most of y'all are *greatly* exaggurating the "hate" Christians feel for Jews.

[WoodrowFan]

54. the sign's theology sucks

Here are the verses cited on the sign from Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians (in Macedonia)

.. "For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews, who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost."

The problem here is whether or not the second part (from the Jews, who killed) is assigning blame to ALL Jews or to particular Jews that Paul and the other early questions had dealt with in Jerusalem. I think he was referring to specific individuals, NOT to an entire people.

The letter was meant for Church members who were being persecuted by other members of their community. (other Macedonians) and Paul is making a direct comparison---just as the letter's recipients are being persecuted, so were other believers in Judea persecuted the same way.

Paul knew very well that it was not every Jew that was persecuting Christ's followers, especially as Paul had once been one of the most active persecutors himself! There were several reactions among the Jewish population to the new sect that became Christianity. Some believed and joined. Some were hostile (Stephen was stoned for blasphemy) and some were neutral and tolerant. One member of the Priesthood argued that the members of this new group should be tolerated because of their teachings were false then they would fade away, and if they were true, then they could not be defeated (Acts 5: 38-29). Paul was a part of this debate as a member of those who wanted to stamp out the new group. Thus he knew from personal experience that there were different reactions to the new group. Besides, Paul still accepted Jews as God's chosen people and compared the Christians to a limb grafted onto a new tree. (Romans 11) He would not have done this had he assigned corporate responsibility.


Short Version: The theology of this sign sucks!

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Jesus was Jewish

Christianity owes much of what is best about our faith to Judaism and the Jewish people. We should not blame them, we should thank them.

[northofdenali]

56. You are NOT going to believe this!

I sent them a very brief email - "You should be ashamed." That's it, just one line.

I have received a reply.

"We are. The sign has been replaced with an apology. We are sorry for offending you."

Is it possible they have actually seen the light? If so, I am certainly impressed!

[jackstraw45]

60. If it's true, I hope it gets media coverage

People should be credited for correcting mistakes.

[Ksec]

72. Actually Christians consider the Jews as the chosen ones

So for some to suggest this was more than a irrational nitwit putting letters on a sign is just buying into a stereotypical veiw that Christians somehow believe theyre above everyone.

All three major religions are entwined . Each mentions the others.

[ms_splash]

76. Maybe God could choose someone else for a change

(paraphrased from Fiddler)

[scottcsmith]

57. There you have it

For anyone that doesn't think the New Testament is anti-Semitic, you have your proof now.

There are other verses like that throughout the Christian bible.

[E-Z Rider]

62. are you kidding?

[GreenPartyVoter]

64. Beyond sad.

One minute these people are rapturous that He died and was raised up, and the next they are pissed about it?

He died according to plan, so why take it out on His cousins many generations removed who had nothing to do with it?

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[KharmaTrain]

65. Imagine If This Said Raygun Killed Jesus...

The media torrent and outrage would be intense. This bigot in three words has cast blame on several million Americans for events that never happened 2,000 year ago.

When someone attempts to engage me in some "Christian talk"...I immediately halt them in their tracks to prove to me Jesus existed. Once you tone down all the biblical rhetoric and circumstantial charades (the Via Dolarosa stations, etc. that were added to build on the myth) and go with strict science FACT, they back down.

But then I go one step further...when the topic of the Bible...any version comes into play and the term "word of god" comes in, I ask if there's a signed copy that proves it's truly god's word. Of course I'll get the story of the 10 commandments, and then I ask, who wrote those? The answer: Moses...he took the dictation. But now who was there to witness (also Moses didn't exist either). The discussion goes nowhere from there since any statements made thereafter are opinion based on fiction. Christian wingnuts hate it since they're so brainwashed into this being more truthful than our own Constitution. Jefferson must be doing flip flops in his grave.

One of the big controversies surrounding the Dead Sea scrolls is the interpretation of what is written and who wrote it. These were written around the time of Jesus...probably later as the Orthodox Jews fled Jerusalem for the hills during the Roman occupation and by then the crucifixion should have occured. If Jesus had made such a splash as the bible claims, surely there would have been some mention in contemporary literature or in these scrolls to document that.

Finally, about these "rabbis" who claimed that the Jewish scripture says Jews agree with their complicity, I'd love to see who they are and what their true affiliation is. Just like in Christianity, Judiasm is not a monolith with various sects...thus the broad brush is even more biggoted...and I'm sure there are self-promoters who will publish black is white to get noticed. Also, there are many Jews who aren't comfortable in their own skin...they're called Jews For Jesus.

[_Jumper_]

70. Media torrent

One no-name church put up this sign and it became national news. What more do you think the media should have done?

[KharmaTrain]

74. National News???

I've been scanning CNN & MessyGOP all evening and have yet to see this sign mentioned.

The only place it's been shown, to my knowledge is here.

Yep, he's a no-name, but he also made a statement I, as a Jew, am extremely offended and even fearful of.

Right now I'm very content the national media hasn't picked up on this bigot, but if they do, then he should be denounced, not glorified for this obvious act of hate.

[northofdenali]

79. Hi, IM - I scan about 2 dozen large newspapers per day,

and this has been in all of them.

BUT they actually emailed me an apology, and I think that should be noted, as well. They also said they had put an apology on the sign. If true, I hope the Colorado papers and stations pick up on that as well - at least they are giving the appearance of trying to do the right thing now.

[boilerbabe]

78. You are truly "Radioactive"!!

Killer monologue...you may be right!!
XXXOOO
The Boilerbabe

[boilerbabe]

75. This is so wrong...

Just saw "The Passion of Christ", the Mel Gibson movie...what I got out of it was more of an impression that times have not changed, that the only difference between the brutality of that particular time and ours is that they were not on cell phones. It looked to me like a bunch of yayhoos at a frigging sports event. I have seen some pretty brutal ocurrences in real life that would lend themselves to this kind of thing, and it made me have to cover my eyes more than once..
'But Christianity is not the only brutal religion around...all religions seem to be pretty much off the wall on the brutality count to me.I don't even see why religion should even be a part of any country's legislation. It's too divisive. I hope that people will realize that religion and government don't mix.

[AlFrankenFan]

81. Last place I'd think something like that would be would be in CO!

Mel Gibson deserves to be smacked for helping start up a wave of anti-Semitism in 2004.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.