Are we on the brink of a full-fledged, 1960s-style cultural/political war?

[AngryYoungMan]

I think we are. I'm not going to go into detail about what I mean because I think any DUer who's been following the events of the past months and weeks and days knows what I mean. It's pretty wild, isn't it? I hope fewer people get their heads bashed in this time.

[DrWeird]

1. I agree.

It's coming to a head pretty fast.

[Codeblue]

5. Just a story

A couple of kids who write for my college newspapare went down to Miami last semester to protest the United States' entrance into the new free trade act, and brought back some pictures as well as some scars.

Apparently they were chased around like everyone else by the riot police and eventually were incarcerated for hours without being allowed a drink. They were extremely dehydrated, but the cops wouldn't give them anything. It took five hours for the police to release them. The pictures they brought back looked like something out of a history textbook dealing with the civil rights movement in the '60's. Just thought I'd share.

[starroute]

31. Not that fast -- I can foresee several stages ahead

The most likely scenario I see over the next decade:

- 2004: Bush defeated. A couple of years of progressive politics producing a string of moderate reforms. Bushite repression rejected. General optimism and unity.

- 2007: Cynicism starts to set in. Despite reforms, fundamental problems are not being addressed. Widespread feelings of alienation. People lose faith in politics and turn to various sorts of escapism -- similar to to 1964-66. Art and music flourish. Equivalent of hippies appear, but this time round with a primary basis in geek culture (computers, free software, file sharing.)

- 2010: A variety of radical movements explode onto the scene -- similar to the late 60's, but with a very different focus. The main issues involve corporate dominance -- intellectual property, privacy, peak oil/global warming. The culture wars also come to a head at this time. Radicals battle conservatives, with moderates caught in the middle and feeling increasingly irrelevant.

- 2012: General burnout and disillusionment. The society has undergone major changes, but is also exhausted by several years of cultural conflict. The radicals slink off to lick their wounds, while the moderates re-emerge to pick up the pieces.


The alternate scenario I see is one in which either Bush manages to hang on or there is another major terrorist event and the country continues on a path of repression and xenophobia. In that case, this same general course of events is still likely to occur, but it will not be centered in the US. The United States would become something like what Russia was in the 1960's -- a nation on the periphery of major events, but with its most creative elements crushed or in exile.

[thebigidea]

2. I sure hope so.

Some months after 9/11, I dimly recall nagging SF writer Harley Sorenson about an upcoming Burroughsian anti-Bush media movement...

he said "sure hope so, and you may be right" or something.

sitting in the audience of that big moveon.org thing last month, the thought occured: "is this it?"

If ever there was a year for it, its 2004. Get to work, you lazy bastards!



Although if Ashcroft's Justice Department is to be believed, the laziness may be caused by far more potent marijuana.

[DenverDem]

20. (In Homer Simpson voice) "Mmmmm, potent marijuana."

What were we talking about?

[DenverDem]

3. No, more like 1860's, I'm afraid.

(un)Civil War. Blood will flow in the streets before this is over.

[Lori Price CLG]

4. Well, if the Idiot Usurper steals it again...

They get what they pay for.
I will NOT accept a second Bush coup d'etat.

-Lori

[AngryYoungMan]

7. Only Diebold can lead to bloodshed.

Because that's how it always works. Violence results from a consensus feeling that the conventional channels of social change aren't working. Malcolm X, Rodney King verdict, etc.

If they're going to try to fuck us with Diebold, they'd better watch their fucking step, because it could make us all take to the streets. And I am not fucking kidding.

[DenverDem]

13. I am more worried about radical wrong wingers

after Kerry kicks bushler's ass so hard even Diebold can't save him.

If Diebold does pull off another fraudulent election in the face of overwhelming opposition, then The People WILL have to assume control.

"The whole world is watching. The whole world is watching."

[DrZhivago]

17. funny thing is here I was talking to a bunch of vets

and they were talking to a guy who was about to join the military. Eventhough all of them were what you would call typical bush supporters, one guy mentioned how his friend went to weekend drill (in the reserves) last june, and since they were required to be packed like they would be going to the field or on deployment, his whole unit was shipped off to Iraq that monday, no advance notice no nothing. I blurted out "That SUCKS!!" and we all laughed and had the feeling all over that most vets could relate to, the feeling of being screwed by uncle sam.
The point of this rant is that underneath it all, we all are all in this together eventhough those crazy freepers are dead wrong in our eyes, and we are fucking crazy in their eyes. We need to quit this partisan bullshit (after we get dumbya out the WH of course) and actually start dealing with our future. Because them rich white folk sure as fuck don't care about it, either side of the fence.


Hydrogen fuel anybody?

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. We are on the brink of something far, far worse, than 1960s or even 1860s

The "war between the states" was largely confined to the eastern half of the country. In fact, some states were not even states yet.

[AngryYoungMan]

11. Your pessimism is misplaced.

A year ago I would have agreed with you that we were on our way towards the Great Abyss. Now, we're seeing signs of life. The press is stirring. Richard Perle is gone. Bush is floundering. Kerry is surging. Nader is failing. And Bush just touched a match to a fuse that he really should have left alone.

Don't be so glum, chum. I'm glad the chads are hitting the fan NOW and not in 2005-6. This year we have a chance to stop the bastards and everyone knows it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. You misunderstand me. I'm talking about something even worse

The value of a day's labor has fallen below the price of a day's survival.

This is something that affects people who don't even know who Perle is, who aren't sure who bush is, and are only marginally aware that it is an election year.

[AngryYoungMan]

16. The corporate press will change its tune if its owners reject the neocons!

That's what happened in the 1970s. The whole culture reversed itself from the top down. Ironically, Nader may have been right about this, in 2000. The "taste o' Bush" may have scared the REAL money into rejecting their pathway for good.

[thingfish]

25. Chaos is coming. That much is certain.

A hard rain is going to fall.

[thebigidea]

26. "Big darkness, soon come. Take my word for it." - HST

[slor]

8. Yes, but...

with all the new media sources, such as the internet and even faster access to foreign media outlets, it will be a much bigger clash.

[thebigidea]

9. or a much more apathetic clash, due to the comfort of chairs

and the seductive power of HDTV.

[PassingFair]

15. Scary...

I've always said that the revolution will not take place unless they took away our televisions. WELL>>>>>> lots of folks can no longer afford cable.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

29. Naaa

most people will starve to death before they give up cable.

[Cleita]

10. If there is I'm not tuned into it.

In the sixties anger was palpable. You could talk about it freely no matter where you were. This is not the same climate.

[historian]

12. child of the 60's

I was 22 in 1968 when the blaze of outrage spilled onto the streets. It was the time of the Democratic convention in chicago, the riots in paris, mass demonstrations world wide against us embassies and so on...I believe though that it was the press which encouraged the action - for the first time actual footage of war was transmitted as it happened, thus eliminating all the lies of govt. I particularly remember a scene where about 8 body bags are strapped to a tank and were being taken to be shipped back to the USA. Unfortunately the press now does not deserve the name of journalism and sadly i dont see the same rage or awareness of things as i did then. I say that only because if an election fraud such as florida had happened then there would have been massive demonstrations in the streets and it wouldnt have stopped till the situation was corrected.
Maybe im growing old but i hope im wrong

[DenverDem]

18. I feel your pain.

Though I was only 14 in '68, I was heavily into the culture wars already. A teenaged hippie in East Texas was a dangerous and thrilling person to be. That was deep enemy territory infiltration back then. I was threatened endlessly and physically assaulted once for being free in the wrong place during those years.

These days are different and not better. I do sense a pedulum swing back to the left coming soon, with all the upheaval that will bring, good and bad.

What we need is some good contemporary music for the soundtrack. Too bad rock is so corporate now. Even hip hop is co-opted almost completely. Where is this generation's Paul Kantner and John Lennon?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

19. Be-Very-Afraid. Their goal is Hitlerian Theocracy with BBV, it's working!

Do not think that some media criticism means we will be OK. We won't.
To recap for you newbies and blind optomists:

Georgie is much worse than you think and he's being used for terrible purposes. Here's a British clinical psychologist's researched analysis of the boy king. He interviewed Georgie's family, friends and such and determined that he was abused as a child and developed an 'authoritarian personality,' the root of fascism! Read it and weep for him and us.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
(So George, how do you feel about your mom and dad?)-CLICK

And this personality is being exploited to further the creation of a Hitlerian Theocracy, which has been going on in this country for the last thirty years. Read it and wonder what the hell we're in for next now that Eugenics is domestic policy and Imperialism is foreign policy.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(God Bless America, The Constitution is Dead)-CLICK

If you'd like to read the full speech of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia back in the dark ages of January 2002 when he said that 'democracy interferes with the Divine Right of Kings and he's doing something about it,' read this and wonder what century we're living in and just what that Constitution was for, anyway.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm
(God's Justice and Ours)-CLICK

How can they get away with it when everyone seems to be pissed off at Georgie and we're supposed to be able to vote the bastard out of our White House? By fixing the electronic voting machines for 'the House.' Read this and decide which country to escape to this fall when Georgie is reinstalled to finish the job he was sent to do-eliminate democracy totally, create a police state, and conquer the world.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
(Diebold, Electonic Voting, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)-CLICK

[seemslikeadream]

23. Thanks for the links

I've been posting about Howard Ahmanson Jr. forever it seems. It's really scary. Did you know that the hardware for all touchscreen voting machines are made by a Russian immigrant and that the hardware is not made in this country?

[Cronus Protagonist]

36. Hloy fcuk! Thanks for posting these!

Scared me shitless, though.

"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[JohnOneillsMemory]

37. SHIT! A few hours later-MORE! A bill to make 'God' the legal authority!!

Right now the Dominionists are introducing legislation to replace 'The People' as the authority in our democracy’s Constitution with ‘God’ in a bill called ‘The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004,’ exactly the opposite of what it really is. The legalities of the Christian Theocracy are being used to destroy our laws as if by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

This is not a test! It is absolutely real and happening right now while the media are busy covering gay marriage and Mel Gibson’s bloody crucifixion porn film, ‘The Passion of the Christ.’

“…on February 11 , 2004 Dominionist leaders in congress made their move; they introduced a bill in both houses called The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004. Among the sponsors of the bill are Rep. Robert Aderholt (Alabama), Rep. Michael Pence (Indiana), Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, Sen. Zell Miller (Georgia), Sen. Sam Brownback (Kansas), and Sen. Lindsey Graham (South Carolina).

The House version is H.R. 3799 and the Senate version is S. 2082. The bill limits the U.S. Supreme Court and federal courts to hear cases involving “expressions of religious faith by elected or appointed officials.”

Although the claim by its sponsors appears to be that the intention is to prevent the courts from hearing cases involving the Ten Commandments or a Nativity Scene in a public setting from being reviewed, the law is drawn broadly and expressly includes the acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of executing his office.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0402/S00172.htm
The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004-CLICK

[seemslikeadream]

42. Alex Kantarovich makes all the hardware for touchscreen machines

Vikant Corp., a Chicago area company owned by Alex Kantarovich of Minsk, Belorussia, supplied the control cards to ES&S. When The Spotlight inquired where Vikant cards are produced, Kantarovich said, "I cannot disclose where the cards are made," but admitted that they are not made in American.

Kantarovich told The Spotlight that he has been in America for 11 years but declined to discuss his employment prior to running Vikant Corp., saying "I don't want to disclose that information.

Kantarovich said he obtained his degree in the Soviet Union and initially refused to answer questions about how his company was chosen for the ES&S voting equipment.

It is inside information that I cannot disclose, "he added. Kantavovich said later that his firm was chosen over larger firms like IBM and Panasonic because Vikant was able to meet the specific requirements of ES&S and provide the cards on short notice.

http://www.voxpolitics.com/weblog/archives/000186.html

If you'd like to see what he looks like I think this may be the same person?

http://research.aton.ru/themes/research/materials-index.asp?folder=1557

The article ends with Bollyn's astounding revelation that America's largest company's software is being programmed by a Russian born businessman, Alex Kantarovich of Vikant Corporation, who came to the US from Russia 11 years ago, who refuses to say what line of work he was in before he came here, and who refuses to say where his "control boxes" which power the new election computers' brain are made, but he did confirm that they are not made in the USA.

http://global-conspiracies.com/death_threats_enter_votescam.htm

[ArwenJade]

21. I'm in a pessimistic mood

I honestly don't think the country is ready. Maybe it's because I live in a predominantly republican state, but I think most people are sheep and change their opinions based on the media. They don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. I think it would take a lot more to piss off the less radical americans.

[The Traveler]

22. Are ya ready for a fight?

I am. I'm hoping this will remain confined to harsh language and such but have this weird feeling it will ultimately wind up in the streets before the current threat is taken down a notch or three. For some reason, I keep thinking about "Gangs of New York" these days ... maybe Bush and his thugs keep reminding me that our political institutions really haven't evolved that much.

[thingfish]

24. I'm ready to break some f(&*xking bones, brother.

x

[Norquist Nemesis]

27. It's coming.

One way or the other. I was only born in 1959, but I remember well the demonstrations, pictures of war in the nightly news, the assassinations of JFK, RFK, MLK, Malcom X, Kent State, etc.

If the Dems win in November, hopefully tensions will be eased and we can progress forward. But it's been bubbling and ready to boil over for a while. I'm just not sure whether it's going to make it go away or just delay it.

One thing's certain...if Bush wins, we're all in for a helluva ride.

[tedzbear]

28. The conservative courts better watch their step...

...or us queers will riot and I'm not kidding. And don't laugh. Remember the atrocious Harvey Milk verdict and the burning police cars afterward? That was nothing.

:kick:

[Lexingtonian]

30. Nah.

I think there'll be a psychological phenomenon of the kind, a short period of some really shrill stuff that collapses pretty quickly; I just don't see it becoming physical.

Most of our present spate of culture war peaked out in 1993-95 and 1998. Except for the under-25 crowd, which doesn't quite get what it's all about, the really partisan people are kind of ground down by nearly 15 years of this running warfare. Some right wingers are definitely trying to gin up a test of strength in the streets, under the illusion that they have the numbers in their favor- but they're having remarkable trouble every time they actually try to implement it. (Just check the attendance at Freeper 'rallys' in recent months and years for an idea of what that means.)

[Beam Me Up]

32. you mean LIKE THIS?:

[thebigidea]

33. while we're having creepy fun with photoshop...

[uncle ray]

34. its becoming very clear

that they are forcing it on us. when you add up ALL of the things going on right now...i just don't know what to say. what is becoming of the gay marriage thing, now combined with the passion movie, and curious side storys like howard stern...they are pushing for change too damn fast! crazy to think that conseratives are the ones looking to change things in a hurry. i don't know about anyone else, but i was not ready for faith based issues to be the main consideration in the 04 election. thats where we are going.

the worst thing about what is happening, is the false sense of freedom we all have, thinking the internet is going to be there for us tomorrow and the next day. what happens if it isn't? how do we communicate? no really, how? they are not going to come out and say, "well there is too much subversive talk going on on DU, we are pulling the plug on the internet" what if there is a string of uncontrollable viri? nobody takes the blame for shutting down the internet. and you can bet after that happens, your cell phone isn't going to be much good either.

it scares the bejeezes out of me to think of the strange government men that are reading this. of course they are. if freepers can find freerepublic, the feds are hip to DU.

what really scares me, is that "they" might actually be prepared for this fight. its about perfect time for the lessons they learned from all the nazi information they gleaned to start taking full effect. i think after wwII we realized how far behind we were, the germans were exploring technologies in ways that had never occured to us, we "perfected" them, and here we are. nineteen eighty, i mean 2004.

bottom line is, we(all of america, not just the enlightened) are all confused, and still trying to figure out exactly who the enemy is. right now they are trying their best to make us pick sides. they are throwing fights at us that many are not ready to deal with. now is not the time to discuss gay marriage. this issue is going to be on par with the october surprise as far as infleuence in the election. that is not a good thing. who'da thunk by summer we will be so worked up over marriage/religion that we'll forget about ANOTHER war?

and i believe this mel gibson/passion thing is just getting started, it is going to be HUGE.

[thingfish]

35. Agreed.

x

[MichaelUK]

38. Thoughts from the UK

I'm only 21, so I can't really comment on the 60's with any authoritaty (except to say I hope you guys had as much fun as I think you did). However, from over here in the UK, the US is looking a bit...well, distorted I guess.

On the one hand, you've got Gorgeous George, all pomp and circumstance, arguing that theology should be the basis of law, not common sense (c'mon, gays are people too. As long as it's in their house and not mine, let 'em do whatever they want). You've got the Democrats trying to utilise this anti-Bush sentiment, and Nader... well, you've got Nader. But we've got Charles Kennedy (leader of our "3rd party" the Liberal Democrats), so, unfortunatly, I think Mr Nader and his cronies might be around the US for a while.

On the other hand, you've got a huge morass of intellectuals, all of whom are politically savvy, all of whom seem to know that your political system doesn't work. You don't like Bush (hey, who does?), you don't like the options from the Democrats, you hated Clinton...so there's a bunch of dissaffected youth led by the 60s generation who have seen their dreams dashed on the rocks of politics and personal gain.

In other words, there's trouble brewing in the magic kingdom.

And here's this post, a call to arms, a spark trying to light the powder keg of revolution. Will there be a 2nd civil war in the US? No. Your country is too ... relaxed/lazy to be politically active and the government knows that. Yes, there are a number of you who are politically active, but think of the general populace. High school drop outs, trailer trash, etc. The homeless, the worthless, the people who work at supermarkets, who stack food, who take out garbage. Think of the patriots, the people who always vote for the republicans/demcrats because they always have done, the people who wave the flag because it's the flag of the greatest nation on earth.

Think of your children, in schools sponsored by global companies just so they can afford to get up to date books. Schools where evolution isn't taught because it's an affront to God. They need to be educated as to what the world should be like. FACT - 90%+ of all americans have not left the USA. So instead of crying out for revolution, cry out for education. Take the kids to Europe for a week. Teach them alternative culture. Teach them that life is not all malls, and proms, and status, and money, and McDonalds.

That's your revolution right there. An educational revolution.

Of course, if you do have a "2nd civil war", the people will lose. In about 3 days. Do you honestly think that Mr BUsh will hold back the troops? Snowballs and Hell people, snowballs and Hell.

[Q]

39. Republicans have been fighting this 'war' for decades...

...and it's telling that some Dems are just now realizing it. I guess it took Blatant George* and his far-right zealotry before many could actually see it.

- The problem is that the Dems aren't even in the battle.

[MICHAEL_LAPERE]

40. The threat is no longer communism, but still grave!

I don't think we are at that point yet. Vietnam played a pivotal role in the events that took place in the 1960's. We don't necessarilly have a unifying event such as that to rally around...having said that,

It is my opinion that events of late justify more public outrage. Corporate America is out of control. Adam Smith had been very critical of the capitalist economy, rightly so. Corporate greed is pushing jobs oversees & hurting the American worker. I fully understand the need for boosting struggling economies around the world & the potential for human rights gains. Profit margins have to be tempered with an appropritate compensation for workers at home.
It is clear that in the short run the transition of some jobs oversees helps the profitability of some companies-- boosting stock pricing & investor confidence. Yet when the displaced workers can't find stable, living wage jobs to contribute money back in to the economy, what then?

I am convering a lot of ground in this message, but I am so troubled by this. Many younger workes, myself included can't find stable jobs. We can't go back to school & support our daily livlihood. Rent, food, utilities, basic living expenses are out of control. Not to mention with the part time work many of us have to accept, there is no health insurance. We want to go back to school, but how? The higher paying jobs require higher education, experience.

There is such a disparity in this economy- much more than the people with the microphone realize. Don't let me get a word in on the Greenspan comments...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. No, the "cultural/political war" has been going on since the end of WWII..

...we are now about to enter into a far worse stage because more and more Americans are beginning to realize what happened to us in December 2000. We are the victims of a bloodless coup conducted by the fascist NeoCon Junta that now occupies the centers of the U. S. Government. That includes the Executive Branch, the Legislative Branch, the Judicial Branch, and the Pentagon.

Additionally, they engineered by LIHOP or MIHOP the events of 911 to fabricate a sense of national emergency to enable them to push through the highly restrictive Patriot Act, legislation that NEVER would have seen the light of day under normal circumstances. Since then, Patriot Act II has also been signed into law as part of another bill.

We have also gone to war in the Middle East under completely false pretenses. I now suspect that the blaming of Al Qaeda has all been part of the game to whip up public support for this conflict. It's actually all about securing dwindling natural resources based on reports and studies by the Pentagon that we may be entering a period of climate change that will result in an extreme drop in temperatures over the next 20-50 years.

Here's the dangerous part...as public perception grows that we were lied to and manipulated, our unrest will grow. As more and more people realize that they are unemployed to feed the greed of their corporate masters, even more unrest will manifest itself. Based on history throughout the world, these are events which lead to revolution and chaos. We are on that slippery slope and we are accelerating daily.