I can't believe what I just overheard about 'The Passion'

[rockymountaindem]

I was in eating lunch today when I overheard two people talking about Mel's movie. One had seen it, one had not. The one who had seen it was describing it to his friend. When asked about anti-Semitism, he said that those claims are "bullshit" and that the only Jews who would be offended are those "with a chip on their shoulder who always have to be the vicitm". Then he said that Gibson would never work in Hollywood again because of "Jews like Speilberg" (paraphrase). The most anti-Semetic crap I've heard in a long time. I'm pretty disappointed.

[BigDaddyLove]

1. It seems to me that the ones who are coming to the fore........

with cries of 'anti-semetism', are the usual suspects who do indeed seem to have a need to 'always have to be the victim', and who tend to see A.S. everywhere they look.

[rockymountaindem]

2. That's not the point.

I was trying to point out that first he says that anti-Semitism is bullshit and then he goes on the make some questionable stereotypes about Jews, suggesting Jewish control of the media etc. So first he says it doesn't exist, then he lets loose some himself. You should have heard his tone of voice when he said it too. Kinda like when Rush says "liberallllll".

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elfwitch]

8. Good God Man!

It's also not anti-semetic to suggest that by and large the media is overseen by Jews.

Do you read what you type?

[BigDaddyLove]

12. Sure do.........

Not only that, but I actually come up with my OWN opinions.

[pnb]

38. How exactly is that anti-Semetic?

n/t

[BigDaddyLove]

40. Don't bother......you'll just get your post deleted.

.

[villager]

10. typical responses, BDL...

...of precisely the dark energies this movie is releasing: The only Jews who complain about being portrayed as God-killers by the dominant culture are "whiners," "Jews control the media," etc. (really? Ask Howard Stern about that...)

[Jim Sagle]

16. I'm afraid I don't follow you.

[BigDaddyLove]

22. Get in line.

.

[Name removed]

27. Wow! just Wow!

BDL, what in the hell are you smoking? :crazy:

Take a good, long, hard look in the mirror.

edit: the post I was referring to is no longer there. Thank goodness.

[CBHagman]

29. Time to purchase a dictionary AND learn about corporations.

"It's also not anti-semetic to suggest that by and large the media is overseen by Jews."

Let's get a grip here. Though there are prominent (and obscure!) Jewish journalists, producers, actors, and the like, it's long past time to retire the "Jews control the media" myth, which has, sadly, been with us a long, long time.

[BigDaddyLove]

37. Myth?

Hardly.

[thingfish]

45. It's not a myth. It's just not "polite" to point it out.

That particular blind spot may very well mean the downfall of Western civilization.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

59. The 'Downfall of Western Civilisation' is the Divine Right of Kings. READ!

The whipping up of the old anti-semitic memes is cover for a very real and documented campaign to make this country a Hitlerian Theocracy fueled by fundamentalist passion.
'THE CHOSEN FEW' IS BEING MORPHED INTO 'THE MASTER RACE'
THE SAME WAY 'GET OSAMA' WAS MORPHED INTO 'GET SADDAM'!!

We are living in the closing minutes of a culture war that the American Taliban is winning. 'Might Makes Right' is WINNING over 'The Rule of Law. 'I've decided to post this synopsis in all my thread responses:

Georgie's brain is much worse than you think and he's being used for terrible purposes. Here's a British clinical psychologist's researched analysis of the boy king. He interviewed Georgie's family, friends and such and determined that he was abused as a child and developed an 'authoritarian personality,' the root of fascism! Read it and weep for him and us.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
(So George, how do you feel about your mom and dad?)-CLICK

And this personality is being exploited to further the creation of a Hitlerian Theocracy called ‘Dominionism’, which has been going on in this country for the last thirty years. Read it and wonder what the hell we're in for next now that Eugenics is domestic policy and Imperialism is foreign policy.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(God Bless America, The Constitution is Dead)-CLICK

If you'd like to read the full speech of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia back in the dark ages of January 2002 when he said that 'democracy interferes with the Divine Right of Kings and he's doing something about it,' read this and wonder what century we're living in and just what that Constitution was for, anyway.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm
(God's Justice and Ours)-CLICK

How can they get away with it when everyone seems to be pissed off at Georgie and we're supposed to be able to vote the bastard out of our White House? By fixing the electronic voting machines for 'the House.' Read this and decide which country to escape to this fall when Georgie is reinstalled to finish the job he was sent to do-eliminate democracy totally, create a police state, and conquer the world.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
(Diebold, Electonic Voting, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)-CLICK

LATE BREAKING NEWS-FEB. 26 2004
Right now the Dominionists are introducing legislation to replace 'The People' as the authority in our democracy’s Constitution with ‘God’ in a bill called ‘The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004,’ exactly the opposite of what it really is. The legalities of the Christian Theocracy are being used to destroy our laws as if by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

This is not a test! It is absolutely real and happening right now while the media are busy covering gay marriage and Mel Gibson’s bloody crucifixion porn film, ‘The Passion of the Christ.’

“…on February 11 , 2004 Dominionist leaders in congress made their move; they introduced a bill in both houses called The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004. Among the sponsors of the bill are Rep. Robert Aderholt (Alabama), Rep. Michael Pence (Indiana), Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, Sen. Zell Miller (Georgia), Sen. Sam Brownback (Kansas), and Sen. Lindsey Graham (South Carolina).

The House version is H.R. 3799 and the Senate version is S. 2082. The bill limits the U.S. Supreme Court and federal courts to hear cases involving “expressions of religious faith by elected or appointed officials.”

Although the claim by its sponsors appears to be that the intention is to prevent the courts from hearing cases involving the Ten Commandments or a Nativity Scene in a public setting from being reviewed, the law is drawn broadly and expressly includes the acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of executing his office.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0402/S00172.htm
(The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004)-CLICK

[maggrwaggr]

39. in the film industry it's not a myth

probably 90% of the power brokers are Jewish.

[BigDaddyLove]

41. Right, and there's nothing inherently wrong with it..........

it's just a fact, but a fact that it instantly attacked as an anti-semitic statement.

[maggrwaggr]

50. here's another: Most citizens of Israel are JEWS

Want to argue with that?

Most of the power brokers in Hollywood are Jewish.

It's a simple fact. Nothing inflammatory about that.

I'd like to add that their only agenda is making money. And as long as Mel Gibson makes money, they won't care what his political views are.

In fact, they're probably wondering how they can make a sequel to the Jesus movie.

[BigDaddyLove]

53. Huh?

I was agreeing with you.

[maggrwaggr]

61. sorry, that wasn't directed at you

I just got a message deleted for stating a simple fact about how many powerbrokers in Hollywood are Jewish.

For some reason that offended someone.

So I stated another obvious fact.

[BigDaddyLove]

63. I can dig it...........

I got two deleted for innocuous reasons as well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

60. The New York Times is allowed to say it

but you're not. You can however say that studio executives are mostly white, and show a bias against black people. Hey, I don't make the rules, I just try to follow them (with various levels of success).

[a_random_joel]

5. Sheeesh!

Pogroms, Inquisitions, Crusades, Holocausts...

Always trying to play the victims!

[a_random_joel]

4. What you just said could be perceivied as anti-semitic.

Substitute African-Americans for Jews, if you don't catch my drift.

[BigDaddyLove]

7. Doesn't make it any less true, and the suggestion that you make..

is the same that is made anytime an argument is made that is not in their favor....once the label 'anti-Semite' is trotted out, it sorta ends the discussion.

[elfwitch]

14. Do you realize how bigoted you sound?

Their Favor?
Excuse me?

[villager]

15. unlike your "Jews run the world" stereotypes?

What "discussion" are you having?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salin]

44. the flip side, of course, is that

once it is forbidden to raise the question - then one can comfortably deny it ever exists.

In a nearby city, a museum holding documents from the holocaust was torched, nothing else - just the small museum hosted by two sisters who were, I believe, survivors. According to your definition... even asking if the arson was driven by antisemtic sentiment would be forbidden, because it would cut off discussion (and be claiming victimization). But - it seems to be central to the event.

Would put this in the category of: we shouldn't discuss it because it is never true, and since it is thereby never discussed it must not exist... (a nice blue print for... denial.)

Just because the charge is raised - does not mean it is always valid. Thus I would suggest that raising does the exact opposite of what you suggest... it opens up the discussion.

[jackstraw45]

20. Not perceived, it was....

Let's call it for what it is.

[BigDaddyLove]

52. No it wasn't........

but if you say so.

[a_random_joel]

55. Well since I already got a warning for defending myself

I perceived the post in question as Anti-Semitic.

It's all about perception my friend.

[BigDaddyLove]

58. I too recieved a warning for the very same...........

and your perception remark couldn't be more accurate.

[a_random_joel]

65. Agreed

The key is being sensitive to the possible ways that your remarks can be perceived.

I understand that there are a lot of people who jump the gun, especially as relates to Israel/Palestine. I am generally not one of those who overreacts in these instances.

But it is just as important to understand that there is a basis and a history by which some of us may be a little more sensitive. Again, I do not think you would have been as hasty with your remarks had the subject matter been African-Americans or homosexuals for that matter.

[elfwitch]

6. until you've walked a day in Jewish shoes...

You really cannot understand what it is like to be Jewish in this so-called "Christian Nation".

Try sitting through a public event (a football game, the Inauguration) where they invoke the name of Jesus every five seconds and then tell me how you'd feel.

Your statement is a stereotype. How many Jewish people do you actually know?

[BigDaddyLove]

9. My family........

any more questions?

[elfwitch]

18. are you practicing?

n/t

[BigDaddyLove]

48. Oops, didn't see this one..........

but to answer your question, no; not in the sense that I should be and that everyone around me wishes I was.

[elfwitch]

66. Did you ever?

Did you go to Hebrew school?
Did you bar mitsvah?
Why don't you practice now?

[F.Gordon]

51. Internet forums sure are fun

You can pretend to be all kinds of people.

[BigDaddyLove]

54. Funny........

You wanna give me a test to see just how Jewish I am?

[stopthegop]

34. it't true Jews are small minority in the US (4%?)

but can you name a nation where they are safer, even considering Israel?

[thingfish]

47. 4 percent?! Try less than two percent.

x

[drdigi420]

11. im anti-jew and proud of it

im also anti-christian, anti-satanist, and anti-muslim

im anti-theist

religion is evil and causes nothing but pain and bigotry

without religion there is peace and we can all live together instead of fighting over who has the better 'god'


(please dont take this to be against ppl of jewish race, i do not have anything against anyone because of race, I am talking strictly about ppl that follow religion, race is irrelevant)

[a_random_joel]

30. There is a difference

Jewishness is NOT just about religion. It is an ethnic class.

I am an agnostic myself, by belief, for the reasons you mention.

However, my heritage and bloodline would make me a victim of Hitler's atrocities nonetheless.

Therefore you need to re-examine your thesis.

I'll give you a pass this time.

[thingfish]

64. What is an "ethnic class" exactly?

Please explain.

[a_random_joel]

68. An ethnic distinction based on culture, nationality, bloodline.

I don't think I am going out on a limb here. As I stated earlier, my personal beliefs would have been disregarded in Nazi Germany. My mother was a Jew, therefore I am a Jew. It does not matter if I believe I am a member of said ethnicity. I would have been placed in a concentration camp regardless.

[IconoclastIlene]

13. Folks coming out of the theatre interviewed about the movie Passion.

I was stone cold appalled to see how many of them (coming out of the theatres and then interviewed) were muttering; "so the Jews were the reason Christ died".....and that was the message they got apparently from this piece of trash.

I am so upset about it and the backlash that is ocurring already with anti-semitism that I just may HAVE to move to Israel and I won't be able to vote this November anyway.

I see the handwriting on the wall. Every country that was great threw the Jews out, England, Spain, France, Germany, etc., and next America, by de facto.

After they got rid of their "Jews", they were never the same again, but of course.

This movie teaches hatred of the Jewish People and the USA will get payback I am afraid for such goings on.

I am really sorry that freedom of speech has led to hate mongering of the worst kind.

Sorry,

Madame B.

[slappypan]

17. And I can't believe some of the posts I am seeing right here on DU

I guess I really ought to thank Mel. I am finding out a lot about how some Christians, even liberal Christians, really feel about the Jewish people.

[villager]

21. right, some of the stereotypes trotted out here on DU...

...have been pretty shocking

[Lars39]

31. And yet we're being cautioned to not worry about the

consequences of the movie. :eyes:

[jackstraw45]

26. Let's face it...

most of the same posters finally sharing their feelings about jews probably feel the same way about other minorities but don't feel "safe" sharing their feelings.

I always wonder why a number of DU posters listen religiously to Rush Limbaugh. Is it to complain or is it because they secretly ENJOY listening to his filth? If I hear more than 15 seconds of his voice, it makes me ill. Isn't there ANYTHING better you can spend your time doing than listening to a bigot like Rush?

Is it a place of solace?

Just sick of all the hypocritical "liberals" here....

[maggrwaggr]

62. uh .... like I'm gonna say black people run Hollywood?

No wait! Mexicans run Hollywood!

[ChompySnack]

19. I'll never see that film but...

From a review I heard yesterday they show Pontius Pilate (a despotic dictator who murdered over 10,000 people by crucifixion) as a compassionate and thoughtful man who really didn't want to kill Jesus. Then they showed groups of Jewish people with rotting teeth shouting for his death.

That is one of the most Anti-Semetic and (of course historically inaccurate) portrayals of the Roman's killing of Jesus that I have ever heard of. Why do they want to make it out like the Jews killed Jesus? I guess the Roman Catholics really feel guilty and want to pass the blame off on someone else. The bible clearly states that it was the Romans that crucified him. I didn't know that the Jewish people ruled Rome at that time...

[ithacan]

33. God killed Jesus

that's the point I think that is missing when "christians" blame individuals or groups.

For believing Christians, Jesus's death was a prerequisite for everything else. Whoever "killed" him was only doing God's will, and was an instrument of that will.

Someone has a great post on this exact point here (but of course I can't find it now...)

onedit: Found the link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=111x18717

[salin]

57. its funny ...

My "read" has always been of a tragedy (in terms for those involved) - and inevitability ... that the stone was cast (so to speak) and the whole drama inevitable in order to bring about the death of Christ.

For example, a big part of the reason of Caiphus et al for wanting to supress Christ - was due to his effect on the crowds - and the fear that it would be perceived as outward rebellion by the romans and result in a crushing of the entire Jewish community (theme around oppressed nations... fear of coopted powers, etc.)... that this, too, was a part of Judas's motivation... and that before his death Judas comes to the realization that he really had no choice in the matter - that he was playing a predestined role... a realization that drove him to suicide... etc.

In short - my view is what you say. For a long time I have realized that my Christian beliefs are far away from those of evangelical Christians - who I perceive to read the importance of Christ's life ONLY to be his death... where I understand Christ's life as trying to right something wrong with the believers who had missed the whole point of compassion for others... of the depth of love... which culminates in his death. In short the teachings of Christ are as important as the death.

Now the funny part - in my view - the life and teachings are important. To those who view the death as the real point, wouldn't the view of 'inevitability' be even stronger (in terms of being "God's Will"?)... in which case the point of placing blame - rather irrelevant to the question? Funnier yet... some of these same folks - grant "innevitability/God's Will" to the selection of W so that he could "lead us" after 911. So - how is it inevitability (with which they seem to grant infallibility at least to W) works applied to a secular political figure - but not to role players in a signficiant series of events that are central to the religion? It all leaves me scratching my head with a big... "go figure"...

[ender]

43. let me clear up some misconceptions.

Why do they want to make it out like the Jews killed Jesus? I guess the Roman Catholics really feel guilty and want to pass the blame off on someone else.

wow - you arent getting it.

that has got to be one of the least intellectually honest readings of the bible that i have ever seen. anyway:

the offending line: (Matthew 27)
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. 25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

now, since vatican2, this juicy quote is not supposed to be in any passion plays.

mel put it in (in latin, but its still there)

That little line has fueled an insane amount of anti-semitism in the past.

You blatantly lying about whats in the Bible really isnt helping.

[ChompySnack]

56. Calling me a blatant liar is a bit much

I am no biblical scholar, in fact I haven't read it since my childhood. I do know however that that line is very disputed and has been deemed an incorrect interpretation of the original work. Many bible printers have changed it due to this fact, some have not for their own reasons.

Let me just ask a question, was it the Roman courts that gave him a death sentence? Did he die by their hands (not words)? I thought so.

The bible has undergone many scrubbings and revisions, whole books were not in the "canon" because they didn't fit into the Roman Catholic desire for what it should look like. Why am I not suprised that they wanted to blame someone else?

Blame the Jews if you want, but reading the bible as anything other than a work of fiction peppered with dubious and unverifiable fact is what I would call, without question, intellectually dishonest.

[Walt Starr]

23. Hmmm, they made anti-semitic remarks to defend claims that an anti-semitic

movie was not anti-semitic.

Why am I unsurprised?

:shrug:

[Comadreja]

24. Mel Gibson's schooling

[maggrwaggr]

36. good one!

Maybe he was beaten by a Jewish nun.

[jeter]

28. The anti-semetism is overblown

It portrays the Jewish authorities unfavorably. But it wasn't an indictment on the Jewish faith. Only those authorities.

It's like saying movies about Nazi Germany are anti-German.

Movies about the brutalities of the British Empire are anti-British.

[maggrwaggr]

35. yeah, if you watch enough movies you can hate everybody

:)

[Junkdrawer]

42. Look at the bright side, the Fundies will be a whole lot less likely...

to embrace Sharon's next outrage.

[DennisReveni]

46. Why?

Antisemitism is an overused buzzword. Look at the statement about how criticism of Israel is antisemitic.
I agree with the Chip on the shoulder statement. Real Time had Maher and Jason Alexander discussing the film, two Jews, and they neither attacked it, Gibson, or brought the issue of antisemitism up.
They did point out it was an integral part of the story.
You can google Real Time to read the transcript.

[a_random_joel]

69. Just because Antisemitism is an "over used buzzword"

does not mean that it doesn't exist, or should be ignored.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

49. Laura Schlessinger, meet Andrew Sullivan.

I'm sure the both of you will have a nice, enlightening chat.

[Bridget Burke]

67. You're exactly right.

"The Passion" is an ugly & cruel movie that is bringing out the worst in very many people.

The evidence is right here.

[Moderator]

70. Locking

This thread has become unredeemingly inflammatory.