House bill 1997 Federal Crime Against Fetus -- passed

[Norquist Nemesis]

Just now on CSPAN. The Lofgren amendment failed. Why this is important is that the bill establishes personhood status to a fetus.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. I have mixed feelings on that

I mean, if someone stabbed me in my pregnant belly, then yeah I want my baby treated as a person.

If my teenage daughter got an abortion, though, I don't want her sent up for murder.

*sigh*

[BlueEyedSon]

2. You can't have it both ways, this is a stealth attack on choice.

A thinly veiled one at that.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I know what it is

but it still bothers me.

[LiberalFighter]

29. It doesn't have to be defined as a person or a fetus

The law can and should be defined as harming a pregnant woman.
If the pregnancy was apparent then the criminal would and should be aware of the woman's status.
If the pregnancy is in its early stage but the woman knew of her pregancy and stated it to the criminal than he would be just as liable.


There is a difference in some if not all or most states that permit prosecuting if an assault was against a handicap person vs a person without an affliction.

[Ripley]

Absolutely frickin RIGHT.

That this horrible bill passed is frightening and resounding proof that there is no opposition party in DC. Where were they defending this? And the fact that it is a total media blackout about this...so we can all discuss some rich ass like Mel and his pet project...is quite telling.

One day soon women will wake up to PRISON TIME for abortion. Lucky for me I guess menopause is coming soon. Wake up youngsters.

edit: can't type today, fixed horrible typos

[11 Bravo]

24. I don't find it particularly stealthy.

Now that a fetus is a "person" how do long do you think it will be until a suit comes forward attempting to equate abortion with murder? Maybe they can even steer it into the 5th circuit. You know, the court that * just slipped Charles Pickering onto via a recess important. Anyone who is not ABB at this point, just isn't paying attention. We have GOT to have a Democrat name the next new Supreme Court justices.

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. But that's exactly what the bill sets up to do

er...rather to her doctor. I completely agree that if someone stabbed me while I was 8 months pregnant and lost the baby, I'd feel I'd lost a child. I'm not sure I'd feel the same about if I were 4-6 weeks pregnant and got hit by a drunk driver causing me to miscarry (especially if I didn't even know I was pregnant yet). The ramifications of this as it's written are huge for those of us who support women having choices.

[LeahMira]

23. Problem is...

I completely agree that if someone stabbed me while I was 8 months
pregnant and lost the baby, I'd feel I'd lost a child. I'm not sure I'd feel the same about if I were 4-6
weeks pregnant and got hit by a drunk driver causing me to miscarry (especially if I didn't even know I
was pregnant yet).

Problem is that this bill would punish someone who attacked a woman who isn't even aware that she is pregnant. I don't think any differentiation is made between a pregnancy that is eight days along and one that is eight months along.

[outinforce]

27. Do You Suppose You Might Feel Different If......

"I'm not sure I'd feel the same about if I were 4-6 weeks pregnant and got hit by a drunk driver causing me to miscarry (especially if I didn't even know I was pregnant yet)."

Do you suppose you might feel different about the loss of a 4-6 week old unborn child if you had been trying for several years to conceive?

Do you think your feelimgs might be different if you had been trying for a very long time to conceive, and then got hit by a drunk driver, and then discovered that you had in fact conceived, but that the "product of conception" was, thanks to the drunk driver, dead?

[rbnyc]

8. My unborn baby was killed...

...due to someone's negligence. I am suing the people responsible, but it's a very important part of my case that the suet relates to the suffering that was caused to me and that it in no way elevates the status of my unborn child, tho it was a real child to me, to legal person-hood.

I just wanted to share my first-hand experience. You never know how you'll really react until you're in the situation, I think.

[Lizz612]

16. Thank you.

I really value your input on this. I don't know quite how to say it, but thank you very much for saying that.

[rbnyc]

19. You're Welcome.

I just thought my perspective had a place in this discussion. Thanks for being open to it.

[Norquist Nemesis]

17. I'm sorry for your loss

(((hug)))

[rbnyc]

18. Thanks.

It was the worst thing that ever happened to me. But I have wonderful friends and family, including my friends here at DU who've helped me every step of the way. And it's become much easier to deal with since I am pregnant again.

Thanks for the hug.

[LeahMira]

22. Understand the mixed feelings...

I mean, if someone stabbed me in my pregnant belly, then yeah I want my baby treated as a person.
If my teenage daughter got an abortion, though, I don't want her sent up for murder.

Can we talk about it?

If, heaven forbid, you were stabbed, are you saying that you would want the doctors to make every effort to continue the life of the fetus in the same way as they would make every effort to help you?

Or are you saying that you would want to see the person who stabbed you charged with two attempted murders?

Since you are a fully human individual while your fetus would not be, would you accept a situation in which your attacker would be charged with attempted murder of you and also property damage on your fetus?

[proud patriot]

3. I was watching the debate today

:-(

[terryg11]

5. how close was the vote?

nt

[Norquist Nemesis]

10. Have to look for final tallies

There were a few crossovers on both sides...I think it was around 20+ Republicans voting no and close to 40 Democrats voting yes. DeLay gave the "wrap up" on the debate. He proclaimed it's vital to pass the bill, if that tells you anything.

[Ripley]

12. 40 Dems voted yes?????????????

Why oh why are they so BUSH LITE?????????? No, in this case, they are Bushbots.

[outinforce]

7. Perhaps..

The Supreme Court will simply declare the new law (should it ever actually become law) unconstitutional.

[libview]

9. any dems vote for a ?

any repubs against?

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. See #10 post

but I'd have to look up the final vote. *off to find*

[Mick Knox]

13. Link

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040226/D80V47BG3.html

[JohnOneillsMemory]

14. More Dominionism winning! I'm posting this everywhere 'cause it's relevent

The whipping up of the old anti-semitic and anti-homosexual memes is cover for a very real and documented campaign to make this country a Hitlerian Theocracy fueled by fundamentalist passions called 'Dominionism.'
This is the religion-fueled fascism:
Supreme dictators smiting evildoers wrathfully with no legal restraints.

'THE CHOSEN FEW' IS BEING MORPHED INTO 'THE MASTER RACE'
THE SAME WAY 'GET OSAMA' WAS MORPHED INTO 'GET SADDAM'! GET IT?

We are living in the closing minutes of a culture war that the American Taliban, called Dominionists, are winning. 'Might Makes Right' is WINNING over 'The Rule of Law. The US Constitution is being gutted and replaced with the Bible but we will all suffer war, not enjoy peace. 'I've decided to post this synopsis in all my thread responses:

Georgie's brain is much worse than you think and he's being used for terrible purposes. Here's a British clinical psychologist's researched analysis of the boy king. He interviewed Georgie's family, friends and such and determined that he was abused as a child and developed an 'authoritarian personality,' the root of fascism! Read it and weep for him and us.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1033904,00.html
(So George, how do you feel about your mom and dad?)-CLICK

And this personality is being exploited to further the creation of a Hitlerian Theocracy called ‘Dominionism’, which has been going on in this country for the last thirty years. Read it and wonder what the hell we're in for next now that Eugenics is domestic policy and Imperialism is foreign policy.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_5160.shtml
(God Bless America, The Constitution is Dead)-CLICK

If you'd like to read the full speech of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia back in the dark ages of January 2002 when he said that 'democracy interferes with the Divine Right of Kings and he's doing something about it,' read this and wonder what century we're living in and just what that Constitution was for, anyway.
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/scalia.htm
(God's Justice and Ours)-CLICK

How can they get away with it when everyone seems to be pissed off at Georgie and we're supposed to be able to vote the bastard out of our White House? By fixing the electronic voting machines for 'the House.' Read this and decide which country to escape to this fall when Georgie is reinstalled to finish the job he was sent to do-eliminate democracy totally, create a police state, and conquer the world.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0225-05.htm
(Diebold, Electonic Voting, and the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)-CLICK

LATE BREAKING NEWS-FEB. 26 2004
Right now the Dominionists are introducing legislation to replace 'The People' as the authority in our democracy’s Constitution with ‘God’ in a bill called ‘The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004,’ exactly the opposite of what it really is. The legalities of the Christian Theocracy are being used to destroy our laws as if by the Taliban in Afghanistan.

This is not a test! It is absolutely real and happening right now while the media are busy covering gay marriage and Mel Gibson’s bloody crucifixion porn film, ‘The Passion of the Christ.’

“…on February 11 , 2004 Dominionist leaders in congress made their move; they introduced a bill in both houses called The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004. Among the sponsors of the bill are Rep. Robert Aderholt (Alabama), Rep. Michael Pence (Indiana), Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama, Sen. Zell Miller (Georgia), Sen. Sam Brownback (Kansas), and Sen. Lindsey Graham (South Carolina).

The House version is H.R. 3799 and the Senate version is S. 2082. The bill limits the U.S. Supreme Court and federal courts to hear cases involving “expressions of religious faith by elected or appointed officials.”

Although the claim by its sponsors appears to be that the intention is to prevent the courts from hearing cases involving the Ten Commandments or a Nativity Scene in a public setting from being reviewed, the law is drawn broadly and expressly includes the acknowledgment of God as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of executing his office.”

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0402/S00172.htm
(The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004)-CLICK

[LeahMira]

25. How awful!

When he was seven, Bush's younger sister, Robin, died of leukaemia and several independent witnesses say he was very upset by this loss. Barbara claims its effect was exaggerated but nobody could accuse her of overreacting: the day after the funeral, she and her husband were on the golf course.


If that report is true, no wonder Bush has so little value for the lives of others. No wonder, also, that after 3,000 people had died, he told everyone to go on with their lives as usual. What a bizarre, dysfunctional family!

[Cronus Protagonist]

26. EVERYONE here should read all of these articles (DO IT NOW)

Thanks for keeping this important revelation up front and center.



"FUCK BUSH" Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[Norquist Nemesis]

15. Vote Tallies

Repubs - Yes - 207 No - 13 NV - 7
Dems - Yes - 47 No - 149 NV - 9
Indy - No - 1
Total Yes - 254 No - 163 NV - 16

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll031.xml#N

[Ripley]

20. Thanks for the update.

How far of a step is it to overturn R v W now that "personhood" has been established to include fetus?

[Hippo_Tron]

21. Another piece of legislation that won't reach the supreme court...

Until the next president gets to appoint some new justices. Good god I hope we win this election.

[ms_splash]

28. Can "The Handmaid's Tale" be far behind?

This isn't even a thinly-veiled attempt to undermine a women's right to control her own biology.

Just wait, if this continues and Bush gets a second term, we will be seeing "abortionists" strung up all over the place.

[outinforce]

30. Now THERE is a Film that

With all the talk about how "The Passion" stirs people up and how it appeals to their emotions, I would just like to point out that many of (but not all of) the things that are being said about "The Passion" could easily be said about "the Handmaid's Tale".

[Skidmore]

31. Sometimes I think there is a faction that would make it a crime

for women to menstruate because it is a waste of a perfectly good fetus.