Christians can neither be oppressed nor persecuted in this country.

[Robb]

Because a majority simply cannot be oppressed. Inherently.

81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion.

76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian.

14.1% do not follow any organized religion.

1.3% are Jewish. 0.5% are Muslim.

Flame if you must, but I refuse to succumb to the notion that somehow 3 in 4 Americans are being unfairly and forcibly maligned by 1.

[wryter2000]

1. Precisely

What is usually held up as discrimination against Christians is really resistance to having Christianity inserted into government.

[Lindacooks]

83. You have got it exactly right.

The only time Christians (usually fundies) whine about 'persecution' is when they have trouble or run into resistence ramming their skewed beliefs down the nation's throat.

[stepnw1f]

2. The RW Fundies intend on..

oppressing and persecuting those who are not RW fundies. I agree. Churchs should stand up now, if they wish to save themselves from public scrutiny. This may be an issue that either helps or hurts the church itself. Very historical moment.

[Kolesar]

3. Their leaders use this perceived oppression to rally the troops

Even though they are a large part of the population with freedom to worship and proselytize, their leaders tell them that they are oppressed. This helps them mold a group identity.

[sangha]

4. Tell that to the South Africans and Indians!!

Because a majority simply cannot be oppressed. Inherently.

[Robb]

7. You are not seriously

trying to equate the treatment of Christians in this country with apartheid?!?

Because that idea is fucking nuts.

[sangha]

12. How did you fail to understand

that I was addressing the following point?

Christians can neither be oppressed nor persecuted in this country... Because a majority simply cannot be oppressed

I refuted the notion that a majority can NOT be oppressed. I said nothing about whether Christians are oppressed in the US.

[Ripley]

30. I think Robb means "in the USA."

That qualifier would make his point true. No?

[sangha]

33. Maybe, but it would still be wrong

See "the women's suffrage movement"

[Ripley]

44. But women weren't considered full citizens by Christian men.

So it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[scarletwoman]

49. Touche! (n/t)

[sangha]

50. But women weren't considered full citizens by Christian men

Isn't that oppression?

[Ripley]

52. Yes, it is oppression. By Christians, no less.

They have their history of oppression, don't they?

[sangha]

65. Humans have a history of oppression

I don't know of any religions that have managed to be 100% oppression free

[Ripley]

68. Buddhists maybe?

I'm not that informed on religious history to say.

There are enough Christian oppression threads via Mel's pet project to go around so I won't go there.

Back to the original question in a nutshell: Give me one example of Christians being oppressed in America today.

[sangha]

71. No, Buddhists have oppressed others

and for an example of Christians being oppressed, I suggest reading about the Puritans. Of course, they were oppressed by other Christians, but the point remains :-)

[Ripley]

74. Hah.

Who did the Buddhists oppress?

Christians oppressing Christians. What weird circular reasoning is that? Where did YOU go to school?

[wellstone_democrat]

53. Law and technology

those are the ways in which power sugjugates. Ergo, a majority can be held in bondage (South Carolina in the colonial period had, for at least a while, a majority enslaved population) or other wise oppressed (colonial occupation) when they are under rule of those who have both the law (courts, police/army) and techonology (guns, horses, etc) to enforce that law.

Certainly every freedom movement has begun (at least) with a war of attrition by guerrilla forces using a combination of lesser arms and stolen technology but power is maintained by the combination of institutional will and superior technology.

As to the original post: some people refuse to recognize that their freedom to speak does not mean others are obliged to listen.

[Hammie]

70. Beat me to it! <eom>

[NWHarkness]

5. Yes and no

There are many examples in history in which a minority has oppressed a much larger majority. South Africa under apartheid springs to mind immediately.

Nonetheless, I agree with you that any claims that Christians in America are oppressed are ridiculous.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

39. but a powerful majority?

has been oppressed by a relatively non powerful minority..i think not

[MikeGalos]

41. Nope

But it's been claimed often enough as justification for attacking the non-powerful minority.

It isn't a big leap from "Christians are being oppressed" to "Those rich, powerful, Communist Jews are oppressing good, God-fearing Christian Patriots" to "This Christian country would be a good and wholesome place if it weren't for the Jews" to looking the other way while a "final solution" to the "Jewish problem" gets carried out.

That's the way it was done before and, frankly, there's enough movement in this country to get a little nervous about people moving from step one to step two...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. your answer confused me

did you agree with my statement or disagree with it? :silly:

[MikeGalos]

47. Agreed with it

but added that the bogus claim of a majority oppressed by a powerless minority is historically a common way to trigger attacks against the minority.

First trick is to ascribe some hidden, secret power to the powerless minority. Then all the majority is doing in their eyes is protecting themselves. It's SO common that it's pretty much a requirement for really nasty bouts of bigoted oppression.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. now i get it

and i completely agree with you

[MikeGalos]

51. Sorry it wasn't clear

It's a trick used by hate-mongers because it works so well.

Look at the attacks on Gay marriage. They're based on the bizarre claim that the secretly powerful conspiracy pushing the "Gay Agenda" is oppressing the poor, sad, powerless Conservatives.

Look at the attacks on Civil Rights. They were based on the bizarre claim that the secretly powerful New York Liberals (read as Jews) were stirring up the otherwise docile blacks to oppress the poor, sad, powerless Conservative southern whites.

Look at the attacks on workers. They're based on the bizarre claim that the secretly powerful trade unions are oppressing the poor, sad, powerless Conservative corporations.

Look at the attacks on education. They're based on the bizarre claim that the secretly powerful Teacher's Union is oppressing the poor, sad, powerless Conservative parents.

Look at the attacks on the press. They're based on the bizarre claim that the secretly powerful Liberal Media (again, often read as Jews) is oppressing the poor, sad, powerless Conservative media corporations.

See a pattern?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. YES

i have believed this to be the case...manipulative bastards...

[MikeGalos]

81. With a combination

of xenophobia and paranoia it's possible to make anyone the scapegoat. The Republican's use this trick all the time.

Perhaps G.H.W.Bush learned it from his former-Nazi campaign staffers. (and maybe they learned a few tricks from him)

[scarletwoman]

55. Excellent point!

So, who do you see as the truly "powerless minority" in this country?

My own opinion is that it will become liberals and intellectuals in general, along with select ethnic groups, no doubt.

But I really don't think, given the state of global alliances and intertwined economic interests, that full-out state-condoned anti-semitism would be tolerated in this country.

A certain amount of terror will be allowed to the True Believers to commit, as it will keep them busy and happy, and strike fear into the hearts of those who really ARE a powerless minority -- whoever it may be.

Thus does the State roll merrily along attending to its true business of accruing ever more wealth and power to the owner class.

sw

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. "Because a majority simply cannot be oppressed. Inherently."

Tell that to any Latin American country and they will laugh at you. Can you figure out why?

[Robb]

9. Fair enough.

How about "a majority simply cannot be oppressed without the minority regularly shooting some of them in the head"?

[sangha]

13. Better, but now meaningless

Oppression is always based on force, or the threat of force. The minority can't be oppressed without force or the threat of force either.

[Robb]

19. No, it has plenty of meaning.

Oppression is not always based on force. It can also be based on varying definitions of authority that have no basis in physical force.

[sangha]

21. I disagree

IMO, oppression is always based on force. Varying definitions are meaningless if they are not supported by force because if not, no one is obligated to follow that definition. An authority that cannot force you to recognize (and bend to) it's authority is no authority at all.

[A J]

8. It is possible they could be.....

They aren't now, for sure, but having a majority doesn't ensure freedom from oppression. It isn't likely, but it can happen (see South Africa).

I what matters is who has money. A wealthy few can oppress many. That is the oppression i fear most in the United States.

[DrWeird]

10. I disagree. South African apartheid.

Antebellum south.

Not that I disagree with your belief that christians are being oppressed and persecuted. That's a ridiculous conjecture.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

40. i think the word that was missed out

is that christians arenot just the majority...they are the powerful majority

[Loonman]

11. David Limbaugh has no idea what persecution really is

Even O'Reilly said Limbaugh is a paranoid fool.

[BOSSHOG]

16. David Limbaugh believes Christians are being persecuted

because they are not being allowed to force their beliefs on the total population of the country. Lunacy and the lack of an ability to earn an honest living must run in that family.

[salin]

42. apparantly

he has never heard of instances where religious persecution meant isolation, deprivation of ability to earn a living, and at its worst - execution... things like Porgroms, the holocaust, the crusades, etc.

Why the language? Part of the 'left behind' fervor. Caught a radio show where folks were explaining that the 'Persecution of Christians' was one of the events that happens in revelations prior to the rapture. So voila... new script for what "religious persecution" means... Hallelluiah - the time is near - pass the donation basket...

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

20. And Limbaugh should know!

He is one!

[KCDem]

14. the problem with liberal Christians

is that we've allowed the fundies to claim the name "Christian", which leaves a bitter taste in the mouths of non-Christians. I consider myself a Christian, yet _I_ can't stand that term! Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm in Houston where one Baptist church has a congregation of over 35,000. I feel that I can't find any place to explore my faith without having politics interjected into it.

I don't think Christians are persecuted at all. I think the liberal segment of the group is, however: fundies think we're not as good as them, yadda yadda yadda, and non-Christians lump us in with the wackos.

The only people I feel I'm allowed to impress my beliefs upon are my children.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. Followers of Christ

That's what some folks on the left spectrum are calling themselves, so as to differentiate.

[KCDem]

34. hm... I don't think that sounds any better

Semantics drive me crazy. I am proud to embrace the word "liberal". ;)

[TahitiNut]

15. There's an inherent fallacy in examining any 'reason' for oppression.

To argue whether any specific 'reason' for oppression is valid or not is to implicitly buy into the fallacious meme that anything at all is a justification or rationalization for oppression. That's the camel's nose.

Humanity has commtted atrocities against humanity. This is the inescapable fact. To discuss whether a particular reason is valid is to implicitly infer that there may be some valid reason. There isn't.

By virtue of merely being human, we all share both in the capacity to be oppressed and to be oppressors. It remains to each of us to ask ourselves the question: "Which would I rather be?"

If by merely living in that question we individually gain some insight or enlightenment, it's worthwhile.

[MikeGalos]

18. A few additional facts

A couple of years ago (2002 or 2003 - sorry but I don't recall which) a study was done of religious group targeted hate crimes in the US. Here are the results:


Anti-Jewish - 1,043 incidents - 57.1% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Islamic - 481 incidents - 26.3% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Catholic - 38 incidents - 2.1% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Protestant - 35 incidents - 1.9% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Atheism/Agnosticism/etc. - 5 incidents - 0.3% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Other Religious Group - 181 incidents - 9.9% of anti-religious hate crimes
Anti-Multiple Religions, Group - 45 incidents - 2.5% of anti-religious hate crimes


If you adjust incidents to match population size, you get the following:

If you are a Jew, you are 834 times as likely to be attacked as a Protestant
If you are a Moslem, you are 427 times as likely to be attacked as a Protestant
If you are a Catholic, you are twice as likely to be attacked as a Protestant

[drdigi420]

22. well, if they are....

good, bout time they got a taste of their own medicine

if not, good too


most of us non-religious ppl dont have a problem with religious ppl's beliefs, as long as they keep them to themselves

if i believed that a big purple and pinnk polka dotted dragon followed me around everywhere i went and only ppl that believed in him truly could se him, i'd keep that to myself too

why does a christian's myth require respect when the dragon buddy myth doesnt? they are both equally plausible

[Rich Hunt]

23. excuse me??

'A taste of their own medicine??'

Just how historically ignorant are DU'ers?

You do know that not all 'Christians' believe the same thing, and that Catholics were mocked and discriminated against for much of American history?

:grr: :grr:

[drdigi420]

35. geez

this is getting silly

[Rich Hunt]

37. nice thoughtful response

...nice to know you find your own arguments more interesting than what others have to say.

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Their own medicine?

Ah yes, calling for abuse and discrimination. How good of you.

[carolinayellowdog]

24. They have been both, by fellow Christians

Just to add another objection to your logic. Religious minorities can oppress majorities; witness the Sunni/Shia history in Iraq. Members of one faction of a majority religion can oppress and persecute another. Christianity's status as the majority religion in America didn't save the Quakers from getting persecuted.

The grain of truth in the "persecuted Christians" argument today is that Christians really are terribly persecuted in various Islamic countries, notably Sudan and Indonesia.

[Rich Hunt]

29. certainly

...and certainly, authoritarian, right-wing Christianity is a threat to those with moderate or liberal Christian beliefs.

It is culturally ignorant to lump all Christians together as if they represent a unified bloc. I can't believe I'm reading this ignorant garbage on an American bulletin board.

Right-wing Christians to this day get state laws passed which impose their own brand of Christianity on everyone else - including other Christians who disagree with their version of Christianity.

[JDPhD]

25. So women can't be oppressed? & Do "real" Christians really hold power?

A majority of Americans, and of American voters, are female. By your logic, they cannot be oppressed.

Consider also that there is a big difference between people "identifying" themselves as Christians and being practicing Christians. People may say they are Christian by default, because they have Christian ancestors or they attended Sunday School a few times as kids, but this does not mean that they either believe in or live Christian principles, or even identify themselves with other Christians in any substantive way. Such nominal Christians will likely not even notice, much less be concerned about, other "true" Christians being oppressed. Such nominal Christians cannot be considered part of your supposed majority that will defend Christian interests.

Finally, there is a big difference between the Christian masses and the ruling elite in America. As sociologist Peter Berger once famously said, America is "a nation of Indians ruled by Swedes . Even if most Americans are religious, those who hold real power in America are not. Examine how often the leaders in the entertainment and news media attend Christian churches. Or how often big business leaders do. Or even how often politicians actually attend church (most only do so near election time, when cameras are watching). Or, if you don't like Church attendance as a measure, how about checking to see if they actually live the teachings of religion they profess. For example, how many nominal Catholic politicians are pro-choice? Do you think they are terribly worried about the Catholic church getting harassed for its stance on abortion or birth control? How about Catholics in Hollywood--do they protest how "their religion" gets portrayed there? Even if Christians are a majority in America, believing, practicing Christians are a sorry minority in the seats of power. And those in power will rarely, if ever, stand up for the positions of the true believers.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

26. "Women can't be oppressed, because they are the majority"

Keep them coming, it's funny!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. It'd be exact if it said "NUMERIC AND ECONOMIC" majority. (nt)

[revree]

28. They are the ones doing all the oppressing

I never had a Muslim or Jew come to my door over and over trying to convert my soul.

[Rich Hunt]

32. well, I never...

I never had certain Christian denominations come to my door to convert me, either.

Get it right.

:eyes:

[Lindacooks]

31. A majority can certainily be oppressed

if a minority has all the money and power. That's what happened in South Africa.

In the case of christians, they do have all the money and power, besides being a majority. That's why they can't be oppressed.

[Rich Hunt]

36. so...

there are no poor or working-class Christians in the US? No Christians who can be discriminated against because of their race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or other factors?

I never saw so many ignorant statements in one DU thread in....well, in at least a week or two.

...and I'm an agnostic, but I'm ashamed to be in this company. :(

[drdigi420]

45. they arent being oppressed for their christianity

please attempt to stay on point

[Lindacooks]

75. IGNORANT?

Who the heck do you think you are??

Don't you dare call me ignorant - I bet money I'm more highly educated than you are.

Yes, white Christians in this country have all the money and all the power. Christians as a group cannot be oppressed because they have money and power. I did not say that NO Christians can be oppressed. When you don't understand the discussion, don't contribute to it.

And now you're on ignore.

[noiretextatique]

38. are christians "oppressed" in america?

:shrug: why not just cut to the chase?

[enki23]

46. it's not that they *couldn't* be. it's that they never have been

aren't now, and won't be in the forseeable future. but the religion was founded by people who *were* persecuted, and they seem to have built an expectation of it into the faith. they get their persecution complex the same place they get every *other* idea about their specific religion: the bible. it tells them they are persecuted. that there is no evidence of this actually being the case is hardly enough to stop the vast majority of them from believing it anyway. if they were that rational, i don't believe they would be christians in the first place.

imagine how they'd moan if there had never been a christian president?

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. First off, let's talk THIS community

Here indeed Christians are abused and oppressed. Let's start with talk of DU.

[rman]

59. make your case

i don't see this oppression you speak of, you'll have to convince me there is.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. Take a look at the poll

So far hostility to Christianity is the leading response. Almost no one claims DU is a welcoming place for Christians.

[enki23]

61. you aren't reading that poll quite right

it doesn't say 'christians' it asks where du is a hostile place to *discuss christianity* that hostility can originate *from* christians as well as from non-christians. and it does come from both sides.

my take? so what. we aren't going to agree, and we aren't going to stop talking. may as well have it out, so long as we stay technically within DU specifications for civil discourse.

and for the record, the hostility here at du is weak compared to that i've seen exhibited *by* christians against *other* christians.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. I'm reading it just fine

I know what a hostile place is. Thanks to some DU posters, I've felt it big time for the last couple weeks.

[Kolesar]

66. Here's your solution--use the ignore button on those users

Please!

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Nope

I don't let bigoted comments go ignored in the real world and I won't do it here.

[Kolesar]

73. I hope no one here is spoiling for trouble

Peace, brotherhood and brighter tomorrows!

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. I wasn't

I don't seek trouble. I don't run from it either.

[Kolesar]

62. I have seen some nonbelievers write some inappropriate posts

I have noticed that it has dropped off significantly over the years. I cannot recall any recent threads that I would call abuse or oppression.

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Did you follow the religion wars this week?

It has been almost worse than when religion was banned here before.

[Kolesar]

80. No. The only forum I utilize heavily is E&E ever since this became

the "ridicule Howard Dean Underground". If it is true that this has been a shameful week of "inappropriate" posts about religion, then I can honestly say that I know how you feel. That crap leveled at Dr. Dean really turned me off to this place. Beyond that, it seemed that any discussion of primary candidates became contentless text spewed on the internet that was not worth my time. I found other places on the internet to read.

One thing I cannot appreciate is the occasional atheist who decides that it is his charge to go argue theism with the few hundred people that use this forum by the week. What would he accomplish? Convince 1 or 2 people that religion is baseless? That would be a poor use of time, even if he did accomplish that.

[tom_paine]

57. Oh, I'm not quite so sure that ironclad statement is true

It is UNLIKELY such would happen, perhaps RARE, but not impossible.

This line of reasoning is akin to that old saw that "Blacks cannot be racist because racism can only be perpetrated by the race in power."

That is horsepoop, IMHO, and so is your statement.

It is mostly true, what you said, but as an absolute it's totally wrong.

Just like my friend, who, when we were kids, got his head kicked in (2 weeks in hospital before his ears stopped ringing) by 8 African-Americans solely because he was white and walked across the wrong field at the wrong time.

You're telling me that kid wasn't a victim of racism because he was the race in power?

Same thing with your point. I have absolutely no doubt that, in localized situations in very Ultra-Left environs, yes it is possible for Christians to be oppressed and persecuted.

Very slightly, of course, relative to other traditionally oppressed subgroups, but I would wager it can and has happened.

Just tryin' to keep you honest, robb...

[scarletwoman]

77. Um, where are these "Ultra-Left environs" in which Christians might be

"oppressed and persecuted"?

I'm trying to imagine a hypothetical, but I just can't. I agreed with your post up to that statement -- so I'm curious about how you came up with your assertion.

sw

[Rich Hunt]

79. the REAL problem

The real problem with this statement is that it presents 'Christianity' as a monolithic force when in fact Christian groups have significant political and theological differences with one another - differences which in fact place their interests in opposition to one another.

As such, some individual Christians or Christian groups might have faith-inspired values and positions that are antithetical to whatever forces are in power at the time. To say someone is a 'Christian' only means they are a 'follower of Christ' in some fashion, and not much more than that. How many Christians are in federal prison now for opposing US militarism - an opposition that is rooted in their religious beliefs?

Some Christians do have decidedly 'Christian' beliefs that are a threat to the conservative, theocrat-friendly Bush administration. To say that 'Christianity' is too powerful or influential is to in fact (unwittingly) uphold the conservative Christian line that all Christians have similar interests. This is exactly what fundamentalist types want.

It is a simplistic view of politics and culture, and it is also a really bad political analysis.

I myself am non-religious (so are some of the people in the WH!), but I am grateful for my religious upbringing. I am also a fervent believer in pluralism and ecumenicism - I think we have a responsibility as Americans to educate ourselves about each others' cultures and beliefs by listening to those who are different from us, instead of assuming that we have nothing new to learn. I don't think this thread does very much to further those goals.

[supernova]

58. Christians aren't oppressed in this country

at the moment. I've never pretended that we were.

However, it's entirely possible for those ratios to change at some point in the future. Unlikely, but still possible.

It's entirely possible for a group who is a one-time oppressor to become the oppressed themselves. And you can base that oppression on anything you wish: religion, race/ethnicity, language/cultural differences, economic inequality.

The problem is humanity. We love to dominate each other with myriad forms of cruelty and we will use anything at hand to to justify that cruelty.

[Ksec]

67. says who?

What moral leader dreamt this up as a rule to live by?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

78. The Nazis Told the German "Volk" that they were persecuted too

and that their race will be diluted by the Slavs and Jews, and France and other European nations were intent on destroying Germany.

The Christians are not persecuted in the US. They are instrumental in influencing legislation and politicians, often at the detriment of other religions and minorities.

I'm a Christian, BTW...

[arewethereyet]

82. if you read the threads regarding labor around here

then -10% of the people are persecuting the remaining 90+.

Of course its possible and its happening. It happens every day and it happens here at DU. Admittedly the ratios are probably reversed on this board.