Okay, how about the Crusades?

[jackstraw45]

Since we're talking about history here, I wonder how people here feel about the Crusades where roughly 1.5 million people died for religious intolerance.

For ANYONE lurking out there that blames Jews as a whole for the death of Christ, do you take blame for the bloodshed of the Crusades?

As the Pope at the time said:

"For, as most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and conquered the territory of Romania as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont.

I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends."

-Pope Urban II, November 27, 1095

Since we're on the subject of history.....

[madmax]

1. Don't forget the Inquisition

Jews were tortured and murdered to accept Christ. Doesn't sound like a very Christ like thing to do.

[coltman]

3. what about the Incas, Aztec,etc.?

[atreides1]

6. ?????

What about them, they were on another continent that Pope Urban and the church at the time didn't think existed. And they generally killed their enemies for territorial gain not religious beliefs.

The topic is referencing the Crusades which was a war against the people of another belief system, and let's not forget that the first
victims of the Crusaders were not Muslims, but Armenian Christians.

But I guess even back then if your skin wasn't white, you were not
considered to be human.

[northofdenali]

20. I think coltman's point was that "Christians"

Also committed genocide against the Maya and Aztec races over religion and "spoils" - just another definition of Crusade.

Welcome to DU, coltman!

[Brian Sweat]

23. I like bashing the Christians as much as the next guy,

but the Mayans were long gone by the time Columbus got to America. At any rate, the conquistadors used religion as an excuse to pillage distant peoples, but it was greed that really drove them.

[northofdenali]

24. True Christians aren't the greed neocons, for sure

and I erred about the Mayans - sorry! Yes, it was pure greed, but the Crusaders also pillaged! If you like a good historical mystery novel, James Patterson's "The Jester" is now out in paperback and is set during the Crusades. His research is impeccable and the book is wonderfully written.

[Brian Sweat]

25. The crusaders also pillaged, raped and murdered fellow Christians.

It was really just an excuse for them.

[Brian Sweat]

21. For the most part, the Inquisition was a way of tranferring

wealth from the Jews to church and Monarchy. Religion was just an excuse. See a jew with a lot of wealth. Torture them, make them confess, kill them, confiscate their wealth.

[DuctapeFatwa]

2. Guess what? They're baaaaaaack!

And very popular with US voters.

[Forkboy]

4. Which Crusades?

The old one or the one just underway?

[jus_the_facts]

7. you mean the NEVER ENDING ones......

.....they've just morphed...one into another....for eons! x(


....THE REALITY OF HISTORY IS THIS...ALL we humans are...we're nothing more than golorified chimps...ALL OF US...and the context of us being PERFECT...is an illusion....we do know better not to act like animals....but our animal instincts are the cause of our emotions and actions always being our achilles heel....us comparing ourselves to a PERFECT supernatural being is what truly causes us the most strife and inability to just *get along*.....we're selfish...greedy...ANIMALS....and untill we can come to grips with THAT we are doomed to repeat history...because we continue to compare ourselves with PERFECTION...instead of what our true origins have taught us....that's my BELIEF!! for what it's worth anyway!

[BigDaddyLove]

5. Anti-Gentile!!!!!!!! Anti-Gentile!!!!!!!!

Another obvious attempt to blame all Christians for something that only a few Christians did centuries ago.

The Anti-Gentile sentiment that one finds on these boards among supposed Liberals is extremely unsettling.

[Forkboy]

8. Nice pussy

I love cats!

[MikeGalos]

9. Odd choice of wording

By Gentile do you mean non-Jewish or non-Mormon? Those being the only two common uses.

If the former, are you really saying that DU shows a profound sentiment against anyone not Jewish? Care to back it up?

If the latter, are you really saying that DU shows a profound sentiment against anyone not a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints? Care to back it up?

[BigDaddyLove]

10. You have not been paying attention.......

The label of Anti-Semitism has been hurled about DU all day.

The original post was intended to show how cruel Christians are/have been.

[jackstraw45]

27. No...

the original post was look at things from another perspective.

We happen to live in a Christian-dominated society.

I, as a Jew, have been told by individual Christians, preaching on the streets, that I'm "going to hell," that, as a kidergarten student that I was a "dirty jew who killed Christ," and so on.

In bringing up FACTUAL HISTORY, I did not say anything about Christians currently being cruel. But obviously it touched a nerve - perhaps as the sign on that Colorado church touches a nerve with Jews.

But when I hear the term "bring Christian" and then read actual history about such events as the Crusades...

When I hear "love thy neighbor" and then hear anti-gay bigotry from preachers and certain filmmakers...

It just makes me wonder.

I was really hoping there was a Muslim on the board who could respond to the words of the Pope almost 1000 years ago. Especially given that President Bush mentioned in September of 2001 that we were on a Crusade....

[jus_the_facts]

12. the truth of history is never learned....it's been hijacked by religion...

....THE REALITY OF HISTORY IS THIS...ALL we humans are...we're nothing more than golorified chimps...ALL OF US...and the context of us being PERFECT...is an illusion....we do know better not to act like animals....but our animal instincts are the cause of our emotions and actions always being our achilles heel....us comparing ourselves to a PERFECT supernatural being is what truly causes us the most strife and inability to just *get along*.....we're selfish...greedy...ANIMALS....and untill we can come to grips with THAT we are doomed to repeat history...because we continue to compare ourselves with PERFECTION...instead of what our true origins have taught us....that's my BELIEF!! for what it's worth anyway!

[BigDaddyLove]

16. I agree completely......

.

[jus_the_facts]

26. Thank You...this is what my extremely limited *education* has taught me..

......there's a much bigger picture of our *history* and it is completely ignored and disregarded as intellelectual folly thru the eyes of religion....who've been allowed to control what most people think for WAY too long IMHO! :hi:

[IronLionZion]

11. that's like blaming whites for slavery and killing Native Americans

the ones who did it died long ago. Why should people take blame for what their ancestors did?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

14. What? And spoil all the fun to be had in Northern Ireland?

Goddamnit, I want my revenge for the Battle of the Boyne!

[IronLionZion]

17. yaaar let kill some British bastards!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Screaming Lord Byron]

19. You do know I was being ironic, right?

[IronLionZion]

22. of course i did

hence the crazy smileys

here have pint on me
:beer: :toast:

[DrWeird]

15. Exactly.

So why blame the jews for killing Jesus?

[Fozzledick]

13. The crusades killed Jews and Christians too!

The first crusade invaded and destroyed several small sovereign Jewish diaspora principalities in soutern Spain that had survived until then under Moorish protection.

The Albigensian crusade was directed specifically against Gnostic Christians who maintained that the Bishop of Rome (aka "the Pope") had no more special authority than any other bishop.



During the Albigensian Crusade in 1209, a French army under the guidance of Pope Innocent III took the town of Beziers near the Mediterranean coast. When the town was sacked, a question arose over how its upstanding Christian inhabitants might be distinguished from the damned heretics. Fortunately Simon de Montfort has a solution. "Kill them all," he ordered. "The Lord will know his own."
Consequently, tens of thousands of men, women, and children were indiscriminately slaughtered.

http://www.anecdotage.com/index.php?aid=8451

[MikeGalos]

18. Considerably more than that

Pillaging Southern German Jewish towns and killing their residents was a pretty standard practice of getting supplies by the Holy Soldiers on their way to the Middle East to happiliy kill any non-Christians whether they were Jews, Moslems or anybody else...