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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:11 PM
Original message
Poll question: Who is the real enemy here?
Edited on Fri Feb-27-04 05:17 PM by JohnLocke
15 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were Saudis.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. When you are talking enemies of the United States
Saudi Arabia stands out as the worst enemy of this nation.
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CalebHayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Kinda odd that they have the more oil than any other country in the world.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yep, but they bred the terrorists who hit us
on 9/11.

No doubt about it, we probably should have invaded Saudi Arabia before we went into Afghanistan and definitely before we went into anywhere else over terrorism.

Saudi Arabia is the number one terrorist nation in the world, IMO.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Not sure about No. 1
But dang close.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. We trained and financed...
The creation of Al Q.
Along with other numerous "terror" organizations/regimes... Like Saddam, Noriaga, etc...

Like the Titans, we tend to eat our own children when they turn on us...
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CalebHayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Terrorists
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Terrorists...supplied, paid, and aided by Saudi Arabia.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
101. we supply Israel, remember.
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. We need a leader who will stand up to the evil empire
also known as Al Saud Land. Honestly, and this might get me flamed here, but if Bush had decided to go into Saudi Arabia, I would have supported that action. The Al Sa'ud family is worse than the Taliban, and probably had more to do with September 11 than we can even imagine.
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EXE619K Donating Member (717 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. The real enemy is....
The mis-guided foreign policies of our country.

Remember:

USSR
USA
US
U
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
8. proxies, all.
The real enemy didn't make your list.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:26 PM
Original message
You mean enemies like...
G.H.W.Bu$h, dick cheney, donald rumsfeld, george walker bu$h...?
Enemies guilty of treason, war crimes and crimes against humanity. Using war as a first resort. Raiding the national Treasury for fun and profit?

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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Exactly who I mean.
The Saudis are easily demonized, but the senior devils are their patrons and protectors in Washington.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. Interesting and appalling
That several DUers are sufficiently delusional to put Israel as their answer.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. I had to choose one....
To my knowledge the Saudi military hasn't sunk a USN ship, or been caught spying on us.

yet...

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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Ridiculous.
Israel has never sank a USN ship.
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thingfish Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. You're right. The USS Liberty managed to limp away without sinking.
x
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. That was a tragic accident.
Is Canada our enemy because of the incident in Afghanistan?
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. It was no accident
No more than the attack on 9/11 was an accident.
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mobuto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. And I suppose that Israel was responsible for 9/11 as well?
What a crock.

All the evidence shows that the attack on the USS Liberty was nothing but a tragic accident. Hell, radio transcripts from pilot chatter show that the Israelis believed it was an Egyptian vessel.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. I don't see...
Where anyone has blamed Israel for 9/11 in this thread....
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. By, the way, PsycoDad...
Why would Israel want to attack an American ship?
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Thats a good question.
Edited on Fri Feb-27-04 06:24 PM by PsychoDad
These may or may not be the answers...

From the U.S.S. Liberty site:
http://www.ussliberty.org/why.htm

We are frequently asked, "Why did Israel attack?"
The fact is, we may never know until they tell us, and what they tell us may or may not be true. We know it was deliberate. We know they knew they were killing Americans. We must speculate about the reasons for that decision. But some distinct possibilities are frequently presented by experienced and knowledgeable people.
...
Intelligence analysts agree that they attacked because they feared we might learn something that they did not want the United States to know. That could have been

1. The planned invasion of the Golan Heights which was set to start a few hours after Liberty's arrival in the area. When Liberty arrived, the invasions was postponed for 24 hours, Israel was attacked, and the invasion took place the next day, or,

2. It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore.

Israeli apologists dismiss this story as untrue. Israeli historian Michael Oren in his book "Six Days of War" and in published articles has dismissed the claim as untrue claiming that, if it were true, there would be mass graves and great outcries from Egypt for justice.

Behold! There are mass graves and there are cries for justice.

Links to the CNN stories about the mass graves are provided on the site.



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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. In this thread perhaps
In Germany, a whole bunch of people blame Mossad. The same kind of people who see Israel as having deliberately attacked the Liberty.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Nice guilt by association smear
the two groups are different.I will leave it at that.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #52
74. Different groups, similar mindset.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. I was not there...
But my opinion tends to weigh on the side of the survivors who were there.
As far as I know, the survivors are pretty unanimous that the attack could not have been an accident. They were the eye-witnesses.

If you know if any survivors that state they can understand how it was an accident, I would appreciate the link.

Thanks.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Accidents happen in war time
Israel has been at war for 55 years and was, especially then, in a state of heightened readiness.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. The regime has decreed that the 9-11 events not be looked into too closely

Calling attention to information that might be embarrassing to the US or its allies could undermine support for the "war on terror."

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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
83. Could be...no one knows for sure...
We aren't allowed to talk about it are we?
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
73. BS BS BS BS.
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thingfish Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Please.
Spare me.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. 1967
Our "friends" attacked us...
You are right, they didn't sink the liberty, but they sure as hell tried.

On that June day in 1967, the weather was beautiful... Clear and sunny, visibility unlimited... the LIBERTY, an elaborate state-of-the art intelligence gathering platform, was in international waters off the Gaza strip and was flying the Stars and Stripes. Israeli reconnaissance planes flew overhead for hours. Pilots and ship's crew waved to each other. Then, inexplicably, unmarked Israeli aircraft began attacking the ship.
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

on June 8, 1967, defending the USS Liberty
against a sustained air and sea attack by the armed forces of the State of Israel
http://www.ussliberty.org/

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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
35. Bullshit.
And by the way, your first site links to an anti-Semetic newspaper...

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thingfish Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Pravda is anti-semitic?
Really?
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Yeah, really.
Edited on Fri Feb-27-04 06:02 PM by JohnLocke
"The state of Israel was founded on the Holocaust myth"
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/04/10/27496.html
"9/11 v The Truth Comes Out Israel's 9/11 connection exposed"
http://english.pravda.ru/columnists/2002/03/11/26902.html
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #44
93. Pravda will print anything.
They seem to have no criteria for publishing
I bet there are "pro-semetic" articles on the site if one looks. :silly:
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. No. Pravda is viciously anti-Semetic.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. Do you think it is that way...
Because Pravda has an agenda or because most of the russian contributers are "anti-semetic"?

And does anti-israel always equate to anti-semite?

BTW- I'm going to go and see if I can find anything "pro" on the site :silly:
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. Accusing Jews of engineering the Holocaust is anti-Semitic, IMO.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. The holocost is the epitome of anti-judism
No argument from me there. The horror commited by the nazis against the Jews and others were so terrible that they must be remembered and never allowed to happen to any people ever again.

But is this story part of an agenda by Pravda, or just the rambling of a kook who is anti-jewish?

Some other Pravda stories that don't strike me as anti-jewish...
PALESTINIAN HEART PUMPING IN JEWS CHEST
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2001/06/06/7031.html

SERGEI BORISOV: PALESTINIAN VILLAGERS MOURN JEWS DEATH
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2001/09/03/14075.html

THREE ISRAELIS WOUNDED IN JERUSALEM EXPLOSIONS
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2001/09/03/14041.html

FOUR NEW BLASTS IN JERUSALEM LEAVE FIVE PEOPLE WOUNDED
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2001/09/03/14039.html

I still say Pravda will print anything...
Russians conquered Mars 30 years ago
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/379/11903_space.html
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
78. kick
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Tell the survivors that...
http://www.ussliberty.org/voices.htm

Of course, what would they know? they disagree with you.... They were only there.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. No one is disputing that an accident happened
They are disputing that it was deliberate.
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #45
75. ussliberty.org
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. Arms dealers and oil companies (nt)
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. The white dog and the black dog....
Both have fleas, and we've laid with both.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. I heard that some of them turned up alive...
"15 of the 19 hijackers on Septembver 11 were Saudis." And 8 are still alive :silly:

http://members.fortunecity.com/911/september-eleven/hijackers-alive.htm
http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/alive.html

The offical autopsies of flight 77 show no arabs onboard...

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/07/02/article_tro.htm
http://www.rense.com/general38/77.htm

As for the poll, I have a hard time deciding between the last 2 as to which regime is less friendly. I can say with certanty neither are friendly...
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. The FBI admitted to Congress that it had pretty much made them up

but that doesn't seem to have affected their position as a popular "enemy."
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. and can you please link me to this story
and I would like a mainstream source, not a fortune city website.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Will the BBC be mainstream enough?
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. I remember this
this was because the hijackers actually involved were using fake identification. You can call me a sheep for believing it, but considering Osama and his ilk have used fake identification to get into the United Kingdom and the United States in the past, I'll still trust the FBI.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. sorry I don't have a regime decree link, but here's a corporate one
''In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper -- either here in the United States or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere -- that mentioned any aspect of the Sept. 11 plot,'' said FBI Director Robert Mueller in the text of a speech the FBI released Monday.

His remarks offer the FBI's most comprehensive and detailed assessment to date of its investigation, remarkable as much for what investigators have not found as for what they have.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/3163998.htm
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Hmm...
Got :tinfoilhat:?
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. "Hijack 'suspects' alive and well" - BBC
One example. From Sept 23, 2001:

Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well.

The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
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Catholic Sensation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
29. I love when people provide amateur writers' websites as proof
I have a story on my website claiming that Tom DeLay is worse than Nicolae Ceaucescu, that doesn't make it so. This is just like the person who provided me with some link to some obscure website claiming that William Kristol was involved in the planning of 9-11.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. The BBC are hardly amateurs

I suggest you look at #31
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
76. Three of your four referenced websites are viciously antisemitic.
And the fourth, Sierra Times, is a right-wing libertarian loony site.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
91. "Anti-semite..."
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 12:26 PM by PsychoDad
A handy way to blow off anything isn't it? Why attempt to refute an aligation with fact or look into it when "anti-semite" will do as a way of dodging an issue.

Anti-semite: the red letter of the day. Disagree with someone, Just cry anti-semite... that should shut them up out of fear. Silence any questions that might otherwise cause people to wonder.
Ignore, Denial, Obsfucation... all in a buzzword.

As for the fourth being a "liberterian" source.. I guess that would automatically make it as suspect as if it were a "democratic or republican" source? Are "green or red" sources' better?

Easy to refute a story upon it's source, and not upon opposing evidence. ... Would you perhaps have some?

Here is the BBC Link about the living/dead hi-jackers. Will they now be found anti-semetic or liberterian?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

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SonofMass Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
88. Rense.com has good stories on alien abductions and
anal probes. GREAT SOURCE!!!!!
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Sorry, no anal probes here.
The BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

Hijack 'suspects' alive and well

The identities of four of the 19 suspects accused of having carried out the attacks are now in doubt.

Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September.

His photograph was released, and has since appeared in newspapers and on television around the world.

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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
13. BFEE - MIHOP
This was home grown terrorism

Homegrown and nurtured at Yale
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thingfish Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
21. The FRENCH of course!
Naturally!
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. More so than Israel and at least 10 people voted there
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
23. Canada
eh?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. You left off the real enemy
the Bu$h Administration.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Hey, this is my answer too. (eom)
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Hey, this is my answer too. (eom)
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'd like to vote for "US foreign policy"
I believe we would have very few enemies if we didn't constantly screw up the world
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blurp Donating Member (769 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
65. Dangerous attitude
I believe we would have very few enemies if we didn't constantly screw up the world

Bah.

People that fly themselves into buildings to commit suicide and kill thousands are mentally ill.

They don't do it because we "constantly screw up the world".

They are poor, angry, young men that have been told that all their problems are caused by the big, bad, immoral, decadent, USA.

The real villains are religious fundamentalists Muslims that are manipulating these people into becoming human bombs.
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
43. In the absense of Bu$h and RumSSfeld,
I had to vote for their stooges, the House of Saud.
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AG78 Donating Member (840 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
47. Our species
We do things to each other that a species that thinks it's evolved shouldn't do.

Today, we have to live with the screw up's of people 10, 100, 1000, 2000, 3000 years ago.

Human beings are the enemy. We're the ones that could develop nuclear weapons, and did just that.

9/11 was just another day in the history of the world. It didn't change the world. It just kept it going.

There will be a new "enemy" eventually. There always has been, there always will be. Look for something to happen between 2010 and 2015, as that's 10-15 years after 9/11. Every 10-15 years something happens somewhere that "changes" the world. Nothing really ever changes though. It just creates a new problem, hence, nothing really ever changes, as a new problem has been the status quo in the world for...a long time I guess.

Who's the enemy? Existence. Reality. People of every shape, size, and color.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
55. they may well have been saudis..
but until the empire can get the oil flowing from iraq and the caspian basin they will remain allies and friends regardless of human rights abuses or the fact they may have funded and supported the atrocities that occured 9/11..the real enemy is corporations that collude to overthrown democratic governments and strip the world of its natural assets all in the name of profit..
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
57. Who's voting for Israel?
HOW is Israel an "enemy", in any way?
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I dunno.
I guess Israel attacked us on September 11.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. What the fuck?
That's a disgusting lie.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. The Worst Enemy
Try Corporate America and it's Republican whores.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Here's ABC on the same "lie"
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?

Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

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Tom Yossarian Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Here's a link to the ABC coverage without as much conjecture
as the Sunday Herald: http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

An odd occurance to say the least.
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jackstraw45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. LIE! I see this filth is tolerated at DU?
Pathetic.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. see post 56
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Sorry Jackstraw...
I didn't make it up.

The Washington Post spreads the "lie" also

The investigations of the Israelis working at malls is separate from another case of detained Israelis, in New York. On Sept. 11, five young Israeli army veterans who worked for a moving company were observed at a park on the Hudson River in New Jersey snapping photographs of the burning World Trade Center and seemingly clowning around. To complicate matters, when authorities arrested them they had box-cutters in their moving van, the types of weapons used by the terrorist hijackers. Two other Israelis working for the same firm were arrested later.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3879-2001Nov22?language=printer
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. Truth. And thus far, still tolerated.
But hang in there.

The white van story is true. Mossad agents were arrested videotaping the attacks, and rejoicing.

From that arch purveyor of antisemetic rubbish, ABC News:

"Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.

"Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities' interest in the case was heightened when some of the men's names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.

...

"For the FBI, deciphering the truth from the five Israelis proved to be difficult. One of them, Paul Kurzberg, refused to take a lie-detector test for 10 weeks — then failed it, according to his lawyer. Another of his lawyers told us Kurzberg had been reluctant to take the test because he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country."
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

Of course thisn't to say that Mossad perpetrated the attacks. But it suggests foreknowledge, and the celebratory reactions of the agents - the cause for which the Israelis were arrested - suggests... suggests what, do you think?

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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. kick..
interesting indeed..
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plurality Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. this part's my favorite
Edited on Sat Feb-28-04 12:01 AM by plurality
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html

‘We Are Not Your Problem’

According to the police report, one of the passengers told the officers they had been on the West Side Highway in Manhattan "during the incident" — referring to the World Trade Center attack. The driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers,"We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem." The other passengers were his brother Paul Kurzberg, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari.


Well gee, thanks for the tip Sivan, we'll get right on that one, I guess we can tell the FBI and CIA to go home now can't we?

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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. Thats what bothers me most...
The celebratory actions. Were they celebrating because they had foreknowledge through an investigation and were jubulant that they were correct?
Or some other reason?
Didn't they know thousands were dying?

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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #68
85. thus far, still tolerated (?)
Sorry, Minstrel Boy, but as you can now see, it's not.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
80. Spin pure and fabricated
Israelis who have seen terror throughout their lives and suddenly have the opportunity to witness the largest act of terrorism in the world to date, are of course eager to film this as an historical document. A rare opportunity for any photographer.

To see this story come up again now, is disheartening. Horrified housewives of course have a different reaction to the event. You can't legislate against a look on someone's face.

Some posters on DU have commented that they've seen Israelis laugh at the scene of an attack. As if that proved anything or is even relevant.

This story has been investigated and refuted. Anti-Israeli groups won't let it die, it seems.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Surely the US has provided sharon with enough firepower to take out both

the BBC and ABC, and any other Anti-Israel groups who report events that could be embarrassing to Israel and its allies, well, OK ally, since it just has one.

If not, it should be a simple enough matter to just phone Washington and demand more. Or demand that bush deploy his own gunmen to do the job.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. This story has been investigated and refuted (?)
Please supply a link or source as my "group" (myself) would be interested in seeing any evidence to the contrary.

You said- "Israelis who have seen terror throughout their lives and suddenly have the opportunity to witness the largest act of terrorism in the world to date, are of course eager to film this as an historical document. A rare opportunity for any photographer. "
But here you support the aligation that they were there, and may have acted jubulant.

I agree that it was a historic momnent and great photo op - the photo op of a lifetime. Mind you, if my original post on the subject had not been censored and purged from memory, you could have seen that I never made any aligation as to why they were jubulant. Indeed, my question was, "why"? And admittidly your answer is a pretty good one... I still am bothered that anyone would be so jubulant over the idea of thousands of people burning to death.

Would that have been your reaction? Honestly, I would trust not. I think mine would have been shock, even as I realized that this was a moment that had to be captured.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-27-04 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
70. None of the above...
Edited on Sat Feb-28-04 12:00 AM by Darranar
Iraq is quickly turning into a colonial state, Saudi Arabia is ruled by US puppets (though their misrule has attracted a strong Islamist opposition, so they pay off the Islamist militants), and Israel is a US ally.

The real enemy of the US government are the anti-imperialism and anti-totalitarianism people in the Middle East, the people who are rejecting both Islamism and imperialism. That is why Mubarak and others have begun cracking down on all opposition; democracy is an intolerable situation, because it could involve the rejection of US hegemony while at the same time keeping the nation away from Islamism. An example of such a possibility is Jordan. The Islamist parties are rather marginal there, but opposition to the US strike on Iraq was tremendous and virulent. If the monarchy was removed from the picture, the results would be interesting.

If you are speaking of the enemies of those who want the world and region to improve, then those would be the imperialists and the Islamists. Those would comprise all of the current governments (if Paul Bremer's occupation authority can be considered a government) of the three states listed in your post.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
77. Kick
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
79. personally and momentarily,
my "enemy" at this particular moment are Zionist racists trying to stir things up.
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mac2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-28-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
82. Hey where have you been?
The FBI admitted that the terrorists of 9/11 weren't who Ashcroft said they were. They failed to talk about much though.

Some of the identified 9/11 terrorists are still alive...others back in Saudi Arabia had their ID stolen. They don't know who they were...but keep the message to keep their wars going in the ME.

It's hoax to bring us to war and blame the Arabs. Got it!!!
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
86. Who is the real enemy here?
Israel.
http://www.weeklyplanet.com/2002-03-20/news_feature.html
The Spies Who Came in From the Art Sale
Weekly Planet has obtained a report detailing alleged Israeli spy activity in the United States.

BY JOHN F. SUGG

A major international espionage saga is unfolding across the United States, with some of its roots right here in the Tampa Bay area. It's been pretty hush-hush so far, largely because the implications could be a major embarrassment for the government. The spy story is even more touchy because it isn't Saddam, Fidel, Osama or even what passes nowadays for the KGB spying on America -- but our "friend" in the war against "evil," Israel.

The basis of the spy allegations is a 60-page document -- a compilation of field reports by Drug Enforcement Administration agents and other U.S. law enforcement officials.

The Weekly Planet last week obtained a copy of the report from intelligence sources with long-term contacts among both Israeli and American agencies. The government has attempted to deflect attention from earlier leaks about the spy scandal. However, while declining to confirm or deny the authenticity of the document, a spokesman for the DEA, William Glaspy, did acknowledge that the agency had received many reports of the nature described in the 60 pages.

DEA agents have told the Planet that the 60-page document was a draft intended as the base for a 250-page report. The larger report has not been produced because of the volatile nature of suggesting that Israel spies on America's deepest secrets.

Another DEA spokesperson, Rogene Waite, told Associated Press the draft document had been compiled and forwarded to other agencies.

The validity of the scenarios described in the document is attested to in at least one official mention. The Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive, in a March 2001 summary, reported on "suspicious visitors to federal facilities" and noted the type of "aggressive" activity recounted in the document obtained by the Planet.

The nation's most prominent Jewish newspaper, the New York-based Forward, also has confirmed portions of the vast spying network -- although stating that the Israelis were monitoring Arabs in the United States, not trying to access U.S. secrets. Referring to the arrest of five Israeli employees of a New Jersey moving company who were arrested and held for two months after the Sept. 11 attack, Forward on March 15 stated: "According to one former high-ranking American intelligence official, who asked not to be named, the FBI came to the conclusion at the end of its investigation that the five Israelis ... were conducting a Mossad surveillance mission and that their employer, Urban Moving Systems of Weehawken, N.J., served as a front."

Forward also reported that a counterintelligence probe concluded two of the men were operatives of Mossad, Israel's spy service.

Reports of the spying were first made public in December broadcasts by Fox News reporter Carl Cameron. It isn't clear whether he had the 60-page document or was only told its contents. A French online news service has obtained the report, and Le Monde in Paris has advanced the story. However, in the United States, the media ignored the original Fox broadcast, and only a handful of publications -- The Palm Beach Post and the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel in this state -- have aggressively pursued the story in recent weeks. The Tampa Tribune and the St. Petersburg Times haven't reported a word on the story.

The absence of reporting hasn't gone unnoticed. The authoritative British intelligence and military analysis service, Jane's Information Group, on March 13 chided: "It is rather strange that the U.S. media with one notable exception seem to be ignoring what may well prove to be the most explosive story since the 11 September attack, the alleged breakup of a major Israeli espionage operation in the United States which aimed to infiltrate both the Justice and Defense departments and which may also have been tracking al-Qaida terrorists before the aircraft hijackings took place." In flat language and sometimes excruciating bureaucratic detail, the document relates scores of encounters between federal agents and Israelis describing themselves as art students. The implication is that the seemingly innocuous cover was used to gain access to sensitive U.S. offices and military installations. For example, Paragraph 82 of the document states that MacDill Air Force Base intelligence officers were warned in March 2001 of the art students' efforts. A month later, a special alert was issued about a "possible intelligence collection effort" at Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City - among other activities, the base houses AWACS surveillance planes and repairs B-1 bombers.

The author of the document is not identified. However, many DEA and other law enforcement agents are named. The Planet has contacted some of the named agents, and three federal employees have confirmed the incidents described in the report. None disputed the authenticity of the report. One senior DEA official, when read paragraphs that mentioned him, said: "Absolutely, that's my report," adding, however, that he didn't think the incidents were sufficient to prove an ongoing spy operation. All of the federal employees said they could not be quoted by name. The specific incidents are richly chronicled, down to names, drivers' license numbers, addresses and phone numbers of the Israelis.

Perhaps most intriguing, the Israelis' military and intelligence specialties are listed: "special forces," "intelligence officer," "demolition/explosive ordnance specialist," "bodyguard to head of Israeli army," "electronic intercept operator" -- even "son of a two-star (Israeli) army general."

"The activities of these Israeli art students raised the suspicion of (the DEA's Office of Security Programs) and other field offices when attempts were made to circumvent the access control systems at DEA offices, and when these individuals began to solicit their paintings at the homes of DEA employees," the document states. "The nature of the individuals' conduct, combined with intelligence information and historical information regarding past incidents (involving Israelis leads the DEA) to believe the incidents may well be an organized intelligence gathering activity."

The document also links the Israelis to possible drug investigations. The report states: "DEA Orlando has developed the first drug nexus to this group. Telephone numbers obtained from an Israeli Art Student encountered at the Orlando (district office) have been linked to several ongoing DEA MDMA (Ecstasy) investigations in Florida, California, Texas, and New York."

Much of the Israeli activity, according to the report, centered on Florida. In addition to attempting to gain access to government installations, the document states that the Israelis approached many intelligence agents, prosecutors and federal marshals at their homes -- including one incident on Davis Islands.

In researching this story, the Planet has learned of other encounters not included in the 60-page report. For example, a member of Congress from Georgia recounted to the Planet of being targeted by the art students. A Hillsborough County judge was also approached. Neither the member of Congress nor the judge wanted to be named.

In an era where CNN CEO Walter Issacson says it would be "perverse" to televise Afghan babies killed by U.S. bombs, it's not surprising some stories go unnoticed by a press that embraces "patriotism" by ignoring sacred cows.

One such sacred cow is what's happening in Israel and Palestine. Reporters know that to criticize Israel -- to point out, for example, that wanton killing of innocents is equally devilish, whether committed by Ariel Sharon's soldiers flying U.S.-made helicopters, or by a Hamas suicide bomber who pushes the button -- is to risk being called an anti-Semite. It's a tired canard meant to bludgeon debate into silence, but it's often effective.

Even with that background, however, it's a little hard to understand the media's avoidance of the spy story. In 1999, word began spreading among intelligence agencies about bands of Israeli "students" doing very strange things, such as popping up around federal buildings and military establishments marketing artwork.

According to Planet intelligence sources, low-level alerts began being flashed around to offices of the FBI, DEA, federal prosecutors and others. By March 23, 2001, counterintelligence officials had issued a bulletin to be on the watch for Israelis masquerading as "art students." The alert stated that there was an "ongoing "security threat' in the form of individuals who are purportedly "Israeli National Art Students' that are targeting government offices selling "artwork.'"

At the same time, American intelligence services were increasingly worried by the dominance of many highly sensitive areas of telecommunications by Israeli companies. Comverse Infosys (now called Verint) provides U.S. lawmen with computer equipment for wiretapping. Speculation is that "catch gates" in the system allowed listeners to be listened to. Software made by another Israeli outfit, Amdocs, provided extensive records of virtually all calls placed by the 25 largest U.S. telephone companies. The relationship of those companies to the detained Israelis is detailed in the 60-page document. The DEA's intense interest in the case stems from its 1997 purchase of $25-million in interception equipment from Israeli companies, according to a March 14 report by Intelligence Online, a French Web-based service that first revealed the existence of the 60-page document.

"In assigning so many resources to the inquiry (all DEA offices were asked to contribute)," Intelligence Online stated, "the agency was clearly worried that its own systems might have been compromised." Often the Israeli "students" sold their artwork on street locations near federal buildings. In Tampa on March 1, 2001, a DEA agent heard a knock on his office door. According to the government report: "At the door was a young female who immediately identified herself as an Israeli art student who had beautiful art to sell." Knowing about the security alert, the agent began questioning the "student." After several contradictory statements, the agent concluded "her responses were evasive at best."

A few days earlier, on Feb. 27, law enforcement officials had become suspicious when another Israeli showed up at the Davis Islands home of a U.S. Marshal selling artwork. The reported noted that the Israelis were "persistent in trying to get inside" intelligence agents' homes, often asking to use the telephone.

Altogether, the list of Florida incidents accounts for about eight pages of the 60-page report.

One of the first encounters to raise suspicions was in December 2000 in Atlanta. A DEA agent was approached at his home by two Israelis who wanted to sell him artwork. The agent became suspicious when the "students" wouldn't provide him with contact information -- and his angst was heightened when he later saw the same artwork for sale at the suburban Mall of Georgia.

Many of the apparent operatives had set up shop at addresses only stones' throws from Arabs in San Diego, Little Rock, Irving, Texas, and in South Florida. The Planet also has obtained a watch list of mostly Arabs under scrutiny by the U.S. government. The addresses of many correspond to the specific areas where the Israelis set up operations.

For example, an address for the Sept. 11 hijacking leader, Mohammad Atta, is 3389 Sheridan St. in Hollywood, Fla., only a few blocks and a few hundred feet from the address of some of the Israelis, at 4220 Sheridan.

A dozen Israelis, including the alleged surveillance leader, had been based in Hollywood, Fla., between January and June last year -- quite possibly watching Arabs living nearby who are suspected of providing logistical support to Osama bin Laden's network. Especially in Florida, where 10 of the 19 Sept. 11 terrorists lived, the revelations about the Israeli activities bolster speculation, reported by a Fox news reporter, that the students-cum-spies might have gained advance knowledge of aspects of the Sept. 11 terrorists -- and not passed on that critical intelligence to the United States. Planet sources with Israeli connections suggest that the information might have been relayed to U.S. agencies, but might have been ignored or overlooked.

Despite the highly suspect behavior of the Israelis, the media hadn't picked up on the story.

Then came Sept. 11. While America was mesmerized by the "War on Terrorism," the media went out to a four-martini lunch when it came to skeptical reporting.

With a few commendable exceptions. One of those is Carl Cameron, a gutsy reporter for Fox News. On Dec. 12, Cameron broke the blockbuster spy story. He said at the time: "Since Sept. 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new PATRIOT anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States."

Fox also reported the Israeli "students" "targeted" U.S. military bases -- which is bolstered by the report obtained by the Planet.

In the rest of the world -- Europe, Arab countries and Israel, especially -- the story made headlines. Even the official Chinese news agency perked up. Not in our well-defended (against disturbing news) homeland, however.

Cameron, in an interview, said he doesn't believe the conspiracy theories about why the story was ignored here. An honest scribe, he points to a shortcoming in his own work -- one hammered on by Israeli critics at the time -- conceding "there were no (on the record) interviews. I didn't tell other reporters where to find the documents. They couldn't do instant journalism."

Others at Fox confirm there was intense pressure on the network by pro-Israeli lobbying groups, such as the Anti-Defamation League and the misnamed Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting (CAMERA).

"These charges are arrant nonsense unworthy of the usually reliable Fox News," CAMERA huffed in a Dec. 12 release.

Cameron reported Dec. 13 that federal agents were afraid to criticize Israel. "Investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying ... is considered career suicide."

Cameron told me in similar language that's what journalists also can face. And, what's clear is that Fox quickly removed the story from its Web site. (It was reposted this month by Fox after other media began showing interest in the story.)

After Cameron's initial reports, the story pretty much evaporated in the United States before Christmas. Then, all hell broke loose in the last few weeks. Intelligence Online in France obtained the same 60-page June 2001 federal report that the Planet has. The French Web site reported that 120 Israelis had by now been detained or deported by U.S. authorities.

Let's repeat that: 120 potential spies. This isn't worth press curiosity?

Few papers have given the story significant space. Many, like the Trib and the Times, haven't uttered a peep.

Some of what has seeped out is disturbing. The Oklahoman, prompted by the French articles, reported last week that 10 months ago four Israelis peddling artwork (but carrying military IDs) were detained near sensitive Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma. Le Monde in Paris recounted that six intercepted "students" had cell phones purchased by an Israeli vice consul in the United States. Sources told me that many of the phones had a walkie-talkie feature that was virtually impossible to intercept.

Bush administration shills were quick to try to spin the story -- perhaps to minimize damage, should it turn out the government did have information in advance about the people or activities that led to the Sept. 11 attack. A Justice Department spokesperson, Susan Dryden, called the spy report an "urban myth," and other federal flacks trumpeted that no Israeli had been charged with or deported for spying. Of course, in the Great Game, "friendly" spies are seldom embarrassed by being called by their true colors.

The Washington Post, which apparently doesn't have the 60-page document, nonetheless reported March 6 that unnamed law enforcement officials had told the paper that a "disgruntled" DEA agent had compiled the report after other federal agencies didn't react to the Israelis' suspicious behavior. The Post, however, also quoted a DEA spokesman who acknowledged that the large number of incident reports had been combined into a draft memo. As with the Planet's inquiry, the DEA spokesman wouldn't confirm for the Post whether the memo was the 60-page document. The validity of the document is attested to in at least one official mention. The Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive, in a March 2001 summary, reported on "suspicious visitors to federal facilities," citing the curious behavior of the Israeli art students. Predictably, Israeli Embassy spokesman Mark Reguev derided the Intelligence Online report as "nonsense."

And, pro-Israeli apologists such as anti-Arab ideologue Daniel Pipes quickly took the field with strident polemics. Pipes, who makes no claim of having seen the 60-page document, nonetheless claimed in a March 11 column that the story was a "dangerous falsehood" and that "U.S. journalists found not a shred of evidence to support" it.

The fact that reporters were beginning to piece together real shreds was blithely ignored by Pipes.

Israel in the past has belligerently denied wrongdoing until long after the truth was obvious. Israel claimed Jonathan Pollard -- a super spy who did horrendous, deadly damage to the United States until arrested in 1985 -- wasn't an agent. And, Israel has stubbornly contended its 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, in which 35 American sailors were slaughtered, was an accident -- a lie exposed in recent reports including one last fall on the History Channel. A recent authoritative book, Body of Secrets, by James Bamford, concludes that National Security Agency officials "were virtually unanimous in their belief that the attack was deliberate."

With the purported art students, it's likely that denial will reach screeching levels. The Bush administration would find it difficult to explain why it either ignored or discounted such a large espionage operation.

John F. Sugg, former editor of the Weekly Planet, is now senior editor of the Planet's sister paper in Atlanta, Creative Loafing. He can be reached at 404-614-1241 or at john.sugg@cln.com. Excerpts from the 60-page field reports document can re viewed at
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DennisReveni Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
87. Five Israelis were seen filming
http://ww1.sundayherald.com/37707
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...


Were they part of a massive spy ring which shadowed the 9/11 hijackers and knew that al-Qaeda planned a devastating terrorist attack on the USA? Neil Mackay investigates


THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.” Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy .”

If Israel’s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world’s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

It’s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She’s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here’s her recollection: “They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.”

Maria jotted down the van’s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.”

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”

His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,” the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’”

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis’ names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists”.

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they’d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculous”. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were “simply false”. The men themselves claimed they’d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn’t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.

Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad – whose motto is “By way of deception, thou shalt do war” – was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were “tie-ins” between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they’d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.” Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it’s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush’s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an “organised intelligence-gathering operation” designed to “penetrate government facilities”. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces – but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves “Israeli art students” and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls “may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity”. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis “targeted and penetrated military bases” as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.

A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells”.

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg – where another Mossad team was operating close by.

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments “right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi”. More than a third of the Israeli “art students” claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that’s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects – on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack “outside the United States”.

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as “simply untrue”. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were “completely untrue”. She said the men were arrested because of “visa violations”, adding: “The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.”

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: “If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.” Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for “conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US ally”. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy” nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.”

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.
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Loonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:43 AM
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89. House of Saud = Criminals
Thugs and terrorist supporters.
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:48 AM
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90. you left off "puppet agents"
that has been their occupation for decades, I don't see how it could be overlooked..
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:43 PM
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96. We have met the enemy, and he is us. nt
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:50 PM
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98. Add another option: Bush
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 09:19 PM
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100. Kick
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