A suggestion about using the word "Christian"

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

Thomas Jefferson was accused of being "unchristian" and ungodly" and every other name in the book by his political enemies, but in his own words, he defined himself as a Christian. He believed in religious liberty and hated religious tyranny. He did not conform to most definitions of the religion that were given by the churches, he defined himself as a Christian because he believed in the teachings of Jesus. He took all the words of Jesus and he put them in chronological order in a separate document and said that to him that was "real Christianity." I think that's a good argument because the religion does use the guy's NAME in the title, so why shouldn't it be about Christ and his teachings?

Part of the religion says you shouldn't judge other people, so I wouldn't presume to put a label on this person or that person who chooses to call him or herself Christian. But wouldn't it be appropriate to ask them whether or not their actions and words are following the teachings of Jesus?

Let me add something about my personal experience. My mother converted to Fundamentalism when I was around ten years old. She watched Pat Robertson every single day. She gave me a crazy book to read called "The Late Great Planet Earth" which was about the end of the world. It scared me to death. Then she took me to a place where people were speaking in tongues and it scared me even more. I told her I didn't like it and she said that Satan was trying to influence me away from salvation. After awhile, I had had enough of her religion and rejected it. She said I was going to hell and I thought, "fine, so be it." I couldn't stand to hear about Jesus for years and years after that, because she talked about him every day.

However, she never really did talk about his teachings and neither does Robertson, Falwell, Bush or any of the other prominent Fundamentalists that are so powerful today. It is all about power and politics and intolerance and everything that is opposite of the teachings of Jesus. This new movie isn't about the actual words or teachings of Jesus either.

I only found out about what Jesus actually said through reading books. I never was much affected by the story until I started reading science fiction books by Phillip K. Dick. He considered himself a Christian, but was not preachy about it. Apparently he had problems with drugs and alcohol and, since he was a very creative writer, he approached the whole topic in a fresh way and with a sort of humility. He identified with the Jesus that helped humble, sick, poor and despised people and who suffered humiliation himself even though he was a brilliant man who probably could have avoided his fate.

Anyway, I just want to say that I think it is appropriate to put the words "Christian" and "Christianity" in quotes when referring to those who are quite obviously acting and speaking in the opposite way from Jesus. Because how can they take his name, use it for their "divide and conquer" political agenda, and then ignore everything about him except his last 12 hours?

[kayell]

1. Nice point, the fundies are the ones who need all kinds of qualifiers when

they use the term "Christian".

My mother is a liberal Episcopalian. She told me that anytime she tells someone that she is a Christian, she has to add all kinds of qualifications, either so non-christians won't run in fear, or so fundies won't assume that she is on their bigoted bandwagon.

While I find no need or desire for religion, I can respect her views and those of other moderate religionists of all stripes. Most religions have much that is good to say. Since I was raised with Christian influences (fortunatly of a MUCH more Christ like sort than you had to deal with) I still find that many of the teachings of a presumably real person called Jesus to be relevant. But the teachings that were emphasized in my upbringing were of acceptance, love and aid to your fellow human.

If someone is a liberal Christian, they have my sympathy, but I also hope that they will do their utmost to speak out against the fundies. Too often I see them trying to appease the wingers, as though the more moderate views were not as valid.

[mopaul]

3. an extreme example is david koresh

the lunatic culty who had a famous stand off in waco texas.
i believe that he was give way more than enough chances to surrender, and i believe that he was treated as a man whose religion must be respected, cause he reads the same bible, and worships the same god as we. i've seen many examples of a person's religion being used for an agenda. like when someone is on trial, sometimes he makes a big deal out of hoisting a bible around, or finding religion suddenly.
defense attorneys often tell a defendant to be seen attending church, etc. we too often let crazy people get away with crap just because we see them as good christian's, who've gone astray, and must be forgiven, because it's the christian thing to do

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[kayell]

4. Snort!

Too funny. I've seen that same thing. Once went to a heavy duty charismatic church to see what they really did. It was like a cartoon of everything you hear about, complete with the obviously orgasmic flailing about, panting and screaming. I probably looked possessed myself, since I was trying desperately to avoid hysterical laughter and the results that could bring.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

6. I am no expert, but from what I have observed,

repressed sexuality must be playing a BIG part in whatever is going on with the Fundamentalism in this country. That and fear.

[havocmom]

12. Have considered using this when refering to 'christians' in it for the $$

As in: So and So, a devout christian® ....
I admire those who follow the master's teachings and hate the way others use the term to lend credibility to their vile behaviors and motives

[meow2u3]

17. What about THIS neologism?

Christianists. Just as the newspappers (another neologism for the media whores) call Islamic extremists "Islamists", we ought to call the pseudo-Christian extremists "Christianists."

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Even the Arab media use Islamists as a term

Sorry if that doesn't fit well in your theory though.

[LeahMira]

5. Yes... go to the original.

I only found out about what Jesus actually said through reading books.

As a class assignment, we were required to read first the four gospels and then, the next week, to read the epistles. When we discussed the gospels in class most of us, Christians and non-Christians, were pleasantly surprised at learning exactly what Jesus had actually said. When we got to the epistles, we were able to see the roots of much of the thinking that is causing problems in the world today. When we eventually got to reading the work of some of the Patriarchs and Fathers of the Church we found very little of Jesus' teachings and a whole lot of influence from other sources. It seemed as if these writers were trying to explain what Jesus taught in a way that would be understandable to people who were basically pagan, but in doing that they compromised and lost a lot of the original framework. For example, I believe Augustine tried to mesh Christian belief with Aristotelian philosophy. An interesting exercise for Augustine, I suppose, but Jesus was coming from a tradition that had long since rejected Greek influence.

I think you are right. If Christians would focus on the actual words that Jesus is supposed to have said, their lives would be quite different. Unfortunately, they tend to focus more on the writings of Paul, who had his own problems to deal with. Christianity today seems to me to be more Pauline than it is Christian.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

7. I happen to be reading a book called

"Beyond Belief" by Elaine Pagels because it was the selection in the paperback book club this month and it sounded interesting. I am only on the fourth chapter, but she's talking about the Gnostic gospels that were suppressed, especially the Gospel of Thomas. She says the Fundies rely most on the Gospel of John, but whoever wrote that one was most likely writing in response to the early Thomas Christians who believed the divine was in everyone, not just Jesus. They were more thoughtful and less "hellfire," it seems.

Anyway, it seems there were writings back then that got suppressed and these writings have other interpretations.

[JPace]

8. I like your thoughts....

I too believe that Christianity has been hijacked
politically to control, and recruit people. When
I identify myself as Christian to fundamentalists
I qualify it with the statement that by their
standards I may be somewhat wishy washy. If asked
to clarify I explain that I believe everyone
qualifies for an afterlife, even those who are not
Christian. I also believe that God did and does not
require human or animal sacrifices to atone for sins
(errors).
Organized Christian churches seem riddled with
judgmental behaviors that they defend as righteous
by quoting "the word of God". They also rigidly focus
on requirements to qualify for afterlife and claim
elite ownership of the standards for entry.
I have a difficult time with all of that and prefer
my own form of Christianity based loosely on tolerance,
forgiveness and efforts to understand the workings
of life as much as possible. That includes believing
that all human life is sacred just as it is.

I hope your thread doesn't get locked....mine did
yesterday when I asked a question based on the crucification.
They said it had no political merit or something like that.

[MidwestMomma]

9. I agree with you. Great post.....

I consider myself a Christian not because of the church I attend but because I try to follow the teachings of Jesus and live my life according to his rule to do unto others as you would have them do to you. I'm not saying I'm always successful, but it's a good guideline whatever you believe.

[Marymarg]

10. Fanatical Fundamentalists

have no right to make 'Christian' a dirty word. They should be identified as what they are --intolerant religious zealots.
There is nothing Christ-like in a mean-spirited, hateful agenda.

[drb]

11. Right on!

Another good book for non-Christians is "What's So Amazing About Grace" by Phillip Yancy.

---

"Don't the Bible say we must love everybody?"

"O the Bible! To be sure, it says a great many such things, but then no one ever thinks of doing them. You know, Eva, nobody does."

---Harriet Beecher Stowe, "Uncle Tom's Cabin"

[Octafish]

13. Thanks, CalamityJane! Excellent suggestion and post!

It's surprising how few people who call themselves Christians live by Christ's precepts: Love one another and love God. Pretty much all the world's religions have the Golden Rule about treating people like they deserve to be treated -- as God's precious creations.

My father refused to go to church for many years because he saw many of the same people on Sunday acting pious. He found it odd that they acted in the most base ways toward their spouses, families and fellow human beings during the week. He found them hypocrites.

Bush, Falwell, and the right wing today he calls "Nazis."

[bobthedrummer]

23. I call them nazis too-they are fascists, and the BFEE is directly

linked to profiteering with The Third Reich.

Goldfillings, Auschwitz and George Bush
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/bushies.htm

Nazis were part of the very foundation of our national security organs, especially the CIA
http://www.spiritone.com/~gdy52150/ratlines.htm

There were Nazis in DoD too
Operation PAPERCLIP links
http://www.goordnance.apg.army.mil/OPpaperclip.htm

http://www.infoage.org/paperclip.html

http://www.dc.peachnet.edu/~shale/humanities/composition/assignments/experiment/paperclip.html

I hate nazis and neo-conservative traitors.

[kskiska]

14. I hate how the fundies have hijacked the term "Christian"

to apply only to themselves. A Christian is a member of any religion that follows Christ's teachings – Catholic, Protestant, or any others.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

16. I have noticed from personal experience that

a lot of fundamentalists get madder when you nicely tell them that you have your own spiritual beliefs than when they think you are some kind of decadent, mindless heathen with no beliefs (or whatever they are picturing in their heads about people).

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

15. Maybe use Xian instead of Christian?

Since fundies like Jerry Fallwell ignore Jesus' teachings in the Beatitudes and the like, perhaps use the "X" to cross out "Christ" when referring to them. It makes sense.

[Pathwalker]

19. How about Rabid Religious Right, or KKKristian?

I have always tried to use language that seperates my EXTREME White-supremist relatives from other "Christians", yet some people still see it as religion bashing. One uncle, in particular was an extreme white supremist who also joined a small "KKKristian" cult that believed that Fathers could take their own daughters as a WIFE. He destroyed my sweet, tender cousin in the process; she's been in and out of mental institutions her entire adult life over what he did to her. He looks exactly like Jerry Falwell, and he sounds exactly like Jerry Falwell, just one of the reasons I hate Falwell. There are many others.

I just wish all the liberal Christians could understand though, that some people - right here in America - have suffered quite greiviously under the violence of those who claim to be "Christian", but who instead are monsters; wolves in sheep's clothing, that Jesus himself warned people against. I certainly do not mean IN ANY WAY that the Christians here at DU are like my uncle, and I hope the Christians here understand that. That's why I call my relatives KKKristians.

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Every group has bad people

The Civil Rights movement had the Black Panthers, the anti-war movement had the Weathermen, Du has the anti-religionists and Christianity has its whackos.

I don't defend those whackos. I defend their right (up to a point) to hold their own beliefs. Yes, molesting your own child is NOT nor should it ever be protected.

The problem here is that many on the left and many at DU feel that they can mock the religious practices of people without understanding them. They cast blanket condemnation out of ignorance only because they perceive these folks as the enemy.

That's bigotry. It's just being tolerated.

[Pathwalker]

22. Okay. But can you acknowledge that not every one

who has problems with the Rabid Religious Right does this? Just as you don't like being lumped in with the other KKKristians, neither do I enjoy being accused of mocking your beliefs, when I try so very diligently to seperate YOU and your beliefs from those of my relatives. My uncle was insane, and he just used religion as a tool of his madness. The religion is not to blame for this - HE IS!!! My problem is not with the religion, or the religious - just those who are willing to hijack it, and use it for their own selfish means. And destroy other people's lives in the process.

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Of course

I have had thoughtful and interesting conversations with some strong-willed atheists at DU and we have had no problems.

But there is a post in this thread that DOES mock Christianity and at least one that agrees with it. Yet, I don't see the atheist contingent at DU complaining.

Yes, your uncle was nuts -- dangerously so.

[Lars39]

25. And there are also those here who understand them all too well.

We understand them because we were them.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

27. I have learned over time that you can't make assumptions about

what people believe. There are plenty of people who go to the fundamentalist churches that don't accept every single belief of the church, sort of like Catholics that use birth control even though the church says not to. You do have to be careful not to make blanket statements about religions. I just think people who are gaining power by cloaking themselves in Christianity, like Bush, Falwell or Robertson, ought to be exposed as false Christians.

[fedsron2us]

21. The Bible says that by their fruits shall ye know them

Well it seems to me that the produce on sale by Robertson, Falwell and Bush etc is rotten to the core. This is hardly surprising when they choose to ignore all those uncomfortable teachings of Jesus about peace, forgiveness, loving your enemies and sharing worldly goods. Some of the gospels contain views that would not be out of place in a socialist manifesto so I do not suppose that they are going to be repeated by those on the political right.

As an agnostic I am always slightly taken aback at how angry I get when I hear certain religious fundamentalists claiming to know the mind of God. The idea that their views are somehow synonymous with the divine will strikes me as deeply impious. I seem to remember that trying to usurp the place of God was one sin guaranteed to get you excluded from heaven. Perhaps a little humility on the part of fundamentalists might be good for their souls.

[Malva Zebrina]

26. I kind of like the one that says to take the mote out of your own eye

or something like that.