If the unthinkable happens in November, will you leave or stay and fight?

[liberalhistorian]

I've been giving a lot of thought lately as to what I'll do if the Bushistas manage to either fool enough of the sheeple to win this fall or they steal yet another election.

At first, my plan was to take my son and move to Canada or England and get the hell out of here, because I don't want to live in a country whose citizens would actually allow themselves to be fooled into keeping such a fascist misadministration in power, despite the tons of evidence as to what they're really up to and the obvious exploitation and manipulation of 9/11 (for which I believe they were responsible in the first place in order to legitimize his illegitimate presidency and give him cover for all the bullshit he's pulling).

And I simply cannot bear to watch the total, unrestrained trashing and destroying of this country which will most assuredly happen if they're given another term. Hell, we won't even survive the first two years, let alone four. And anyone who's even the slightest bit against them will find life to be damn near unbearable.

The Bushistas are trashing and ripping apart, in Paul Krugman's words, "all the institutions and economic infrastructure that makes life bearable for those who aren't rich." Not to mention trampling the Constitution, stripping us of our rights and freedoms, destroying the economy, trashing the environment, starving states and public agencies and infrastructure of funds (especially public education), etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.

If they've made this much progress in just three short years, I cannot imagine what they'll be able to "accomplish" with another four. I sense a major cultural, religious, and political war coming that will make the Civil War look like Disneyland, and it's coming soon. I have never seen the country this polarized and this divided, including among my own family and friends and even in my church, and it's beyond heartbreaking. I'm seeing things happen that I never in one hundred million years thought would EVER EVER happen in this country.

I know from my knowledge of history, particularly American history, just where we are headed, that we've never been in this kind of danger before, and I just don't think I can bear sticking around for it, and I don't want my son to have to deal with it either, not to mention becoming a pawn in the Bushista's military machine.

But now I'm beginning to think about something else, and that's staying and FIGHTING! Goddamnit, this is MY country too, and the country of all of those millions of Americans who are NOT wingnuts or neocons, and we do not deserve to be driven away. If that means we're forced to develop our own "resistance army" which, frankly, may very well happen, then I'll be one of the first in line to help lead it and to FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT TO GET OUR COUNTRY BACK!

And I'm not being alarmist here, either; normally I can't stand it when people exaggerate current historical threats because I know from history that there were always times when similar things happened and the world didn't end. But this time it's different. We really are in the greatest danger we've ever faced as a nation. I never thought I'd say that, EVER, but it's true. So, what do you all think? What will it be? Leave and save our sanity, or stay and FIGHT FOR OUR COUNTRY?

[XanaDUer]

1. I go back and forth on that...

I believe we will win, but I am a believer in having contingency plans, too.

:shrug:

[liberalhistorian]

3. Me, too.

And I don't think we can be too sure of a win either, remember who we're dealing with here. Even if they lose, it won't be pretty because they ain't gonna give up so easily and it appears that half the country is with them. If they lose, what if they just refuse to give up Washington in January? From what I've heard, D.C. is becoming an armed fortress, so it wouldn't be all that hard.

[belle]

59. Not that so much, but...

I fully expect every dirty and semi-dirty trick in the book to undermine Kerry's presidency and get back in power ASAP, with a vengeance.

[liberalhistorian]

142. I know,

I fully expect the Clinton treatment for any Dem prez as well. These people will NEVER give up and they have absolutely NO morals or scruples whatsoever, it's anything to get and keep power, which they then use to fuck everyone else over.

The only good thing is that it just may not work this time. People may finally just wise up if they try it again.

[Guaranteed]

32. Yeah...a few months ago I figured I was leaving.

I was so sick of this culture and the people's willingness to be lied to over things so important as starting a war, and I didn't think it was worth fighting for anymore.

But, I've seen a rebound more recently, and I'm becoming proud to call myself an American again.

Barring another complacent mass delusion, I'll stay and fight.

[iamjoy]

2. What I Will Do

Can't move to Canada or England, I'm a Florida native, so find it too cold.

I guess I'd have to go on anti-depressants.

[liberalhistorian]

6. LOL!

As someone who's been on anti-depressants for three years and will likely be on them for life (family history of depression and Zoloft has been a lifesaver for me), trust me when I say that, while they're effective, they ain't gonna be enough in this particular case.

Maybe we can all be issued "soma pills" to keep us in a state of drugged oblivion like in Huxley's Brave New World!

[Warpy]

18. Antidepressants will do only so much

If this filthy bunch wants a traquil four years of beggaring the US population, killing the hope of a whole, large generation on the edge of retirement (and mostly dependent on social security), and sending the sons and daughters of their biggest supporters to die in a series of pointless and illegal wars, they're going to have to cancel the war on drugs and have heroin and pot available OTC at every Walgreens for a nickel a pop. Gawd knows those WalMart jobs won't afford us much more than that.

[Mobius]

22. mexico? I hear there are alot of new manufacturing jobs there

LOL

[liberalhistorian]

26. LOL!

The problem is, it's too hot for me and yo no hablo much espanol!

[Woodstock]

36. but there are also lots of programming jobs and service jobs in India

and they speak English.

[liberalhistorian]

39. Yeah, but India would be

too hot for me as well, and as a Christian, it wouldn't be too hospitable an environment.

[Mobius]

73. so Jerusalem wouldnt work for you either?

:shrug:

[amazona]

139. good luck on getting hired!

India's educated population is larger than the entire population of the United States. They are unlikely to allow an American to take a job there. I suppose it's always possible but for most people it isn't going to happen.

Same with Mexico. You are very unlikely to be permitted to work there.

[Virginian]

57. Have you Considered the Conch Republic? n/t

[liberalhistorian]

60. LOL!

I'm almost afraid to ask where and what that is!

[Virginian]

96. Southern Keys.

Let's see if I remember this right:
At one point, INS (or some other govt agency) wanted to set up a checkpoint on the only road to the mainland, Route 1, to catch illegals and drug smugglers who had come ashore in the southern Keys.
The Southern Keys said they were being treated like they were not part of the Main US because people had to pass through "customs" if this checkpoint were established. As a protest, they declared themselves The Conch Republic.
It is a "country" that doesn't exist. I was trying to be humorous. I think you took it that way. Didn't you?

[liberalhistorian]

109. Yes, I did,

I was just playing along with you, lol! Although I'm beginning to wish a place like that existed. Maybe we could all just found our own country, ABSOLUTELY NO WINGNUTS ALLOWED!

There are about 40,000 of us, of which probably at least 20,000 would want to join us. So maybe we should start our own "Conch Republic!"

[Virginian]

128. The Conch Republic is beautiful, but we wouldn't all fit.

The area is still not overbuilt. Let's hope it stays that way.

[mermaid]

131. I Already Suggested That

Read down, I suggested dividing the country in half...and ABSOLUTELY NO WINGNUTS ALLOWED IIN OUR HALF!!

You guys form it, and I will come! Screw the USA. Far as I'm concerned, it's not my country anymore, anyway. It sure as HELL ain't representative of me!! Doesn't stand up for MY rights, MY freedoms, nd MY beliefs, anymore.

Screw it. I say give the wingnuts half the country, and let the greedy, selfish, asshole pigs kill each other for all I care, fighting amongst themselves, selfishly, for the rancid bits of what once was a great country.

just leave me out. I want to live in oeace, in a country that genuinely cares about, and stands up for, MY rights, MY fredoms, and MY beliefs. And the more I see, the more thaat happens, the more I'm convinced that the U.S.A. is no longer that country.

Sad, the country I was born in has been taken away from me, and I don't feel like there's a damn thing I can do to get it back.

[peacebuzzard]

4. I would like to go as far away as I can but when I get there I miss

the part called the fight. The idealism, the camaraderie, the bonding with like souls....who want to make it all better... Plus when you get there, that wonderful idyllic place, after awhile there will be some faults too....but it could be a spiritual mind-change too. Who knows. Let us kick ass and not have to worry about that! :eyes:

[dflprincess]

5. Stay and fight

We owe it to the Continental Congress, to the framers of the Constitution, to those who ran the Underground Railroad, to the Civil Rights marchers, to the Molly McGuires, to those who fought and died in all the wars.

We cannot let the ideal of America that brought our ancestors here (those of us who are not Native American) die without a fight.

[liberalhistorian]

7. That's what I think, too,

but on the other hand, I'm not sure I can stand it either, and I don't know if I can stand watching my son going through the bullshit either. OTOH, if we're all fighting together and supporting each other (and I'm serious about a "resistance army", others I know have suggested such a thing as well), maybe that would make it bearable.

[tedoll78]

8. I will stay and fight.

There's no option for me. It's the best thing for this world.. to stay and try to move the most powerful nation back leftward. I'll never give-up.

[liberalhistorian]

10. No matter what the cost, even if it

includes a "re-education camp" and incredible danger and hardship for your family?

[tedoll78]

49. I can't make an absolute statement..

but I'm nowhere near tempted to leave.

If things get worse, I will leave and advocate loudly that the nations of the world team-up together for the purpose of cutting the U.S. down to size (of course, I currently feel zero pull towards doing such a thing). I love what the U.S. theoretically stands for (freedom, equality, etc) more than I love the country itself.

[Duck90MPH]

13. back leftward?

What timeframe are you thinking of when this leftward shift existed?

[tedoll78]

48. The country had shifted leftward..

in the 30's, and 60's, and a bit socially in the 90's.

[littlejoe]

9. My wife and I have had serious discussions about this.

We have come to the conclusion that it wouldn't be safe for me to stay. It looks like we will either move to Canada or Australia, if they will have us.

[liberalhistorian]

11. I don't know about Australia.

Apparently, it's also been taken over by RW wingnuts that are wreaking havoc on the country.

[Vas Liz]

80. 100% correct

I would actually classify them as WORSE than our current government. You should look in to some of the shit they have been doing...

[liberalhistorian]

110. I have been following it,

and I agree that it ain't at all pretty. Fortunately for Australia, though, it appears that a lot of people are waking up and getting wise to Howard and his government's bullshit and are doing their best to get him out.

[lapislzi]

90. pretty hard to get into Australia

unless you're a white professional.

[Taxloss]

120. Sure, come to Britain, but ...

We'd welcome you with open arms, and you'd find a far more favourable political climate. Healthcare is patchy but free, taxes are expensive but fair, and only five people supported the Iraq war (sadly, one of them is prime minister - for now).

But you could stay in the most powerful country on earth and fight to use that power for good.

In your position, I know what I'd do.

[liberalhistorian]

125. What about jobs?

What's the employment situation? I have a B.A. in history and sociology and a paralegal certificate, what kinds of jobs would be available?

[Taxloss]

126. You misunderstand

Strongest economy in Europe, some parts of the country in boom, plenty of good jobs in law and media, fewer in finance.

But my point was that I think you should fight to make your country do good in the world. Your political misfortunes make me feel I should be crossing the Atlantic in the other direction to help out.

[rocktop15]

12. Freepers were saying the same about Clinton

Remember when Alec Baldwin said he would leave America if Bush won the election?? Well, turns out he didn't. I have yet to graduate college so I am very concerned about the state of affairs in this nation if Bush does indeed win. I am a very positive person and believe Kerry will win in Novemeber. I am thinking about investing around $300.00 or so into his campaign. I've given $50.00 so far but I know I need more if we stand to win the fight against the large corporations.


Keep fighting the good fight. Remember, our forefathers fleed from England for the same reasons we're stating here. We have to fight to make it revert back to the land of freedom and liberty it once was. God Bless America.............Again.

[liberalhistorian]

23. I think, though, that

now that we know just how bad Shrub really is and how unbearable another term would be, people like Baldwin might just make good on their statements!

At least he and people like him are lucky enough to have the financial resources to live wherever the hell they want, unlike most of the rest of us!

[Central Highlander]

14. Stay and Fight!

I made a decision in 1970. While lying on a rack at Ft. Lewis, Washington I knew I could: immigrate to Canada, refuse and go to the stockade, or go to Vietnam. I preferred Canada, but I come from a Southern family, dad fought in WWII, grand-dad WWI, ancestors in wars all the way back to King's Mountain in American Revolution.

I went to Vietnam and came back to fight with Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Got a journalism degree and got a racist deputy indicted. Became a deputy sheriff myself until retirement, and I'm writing again.

Never give up. This is our country like Woody Guthrie said. He sung about fightin' the Copper Bosses, Dylan the Masters of War. Evers fought the Mississippi Registrars of Voters. How could we not carry on? That carpetbagging, cheer-leading, corporate cheek kissin' stooge ain't runnin' me off. Too many poor folks will need help. Too many new veterans will need counsel.

Like the man said, No Retreat, No Surrender. Hopefully this theoretical discussion will not play out. Hopefully we'll fight our way into the White House first.

[liberalhistorian]

20. You make some very

good points that I can't argue with. OTOH, it's going to get horrible and ugly beyond what most of us have ever had to deal with, and are we prepared for that?

My uncle was a Marine in Vietnam from 68-70, btw, and I thank you for your service as well as your activism in VVAW!

[Mrs. Overall]

15. We were planning to leave, but

now I am very concerned about Peak Oil.

If Bush were to win in November, we were considering leaving this country, but recently I have been doing research on Peak Oil, and I'm not sure where I want to be when that hits the fan.

Have others out there thought about where they want to be when (and if) the Peak Oil crisis occurs? Would the US be the safest place, even if it is fascist?

I'm confused right now about the future and very worried for my children.....

[thebigidea]

16. off to Europe for a few years if so

Bush has derailed my so-called film career and turned my life upside down. 4 years of that is enough, thank you.

Send me a postcard if sanity returns, I'm sure the country will continue its plunge just fine without me.

[liberalhistorian]

31. Europe? Film career?

Oh, take me with you, please, lol!

[MSchreader]

17. I look forward to my show trial

Obviously, I will stay and fight.

Martin

[mermaid]

19. Me, I'd Rather Divide The Country In Half...

Let the 'Pukes and wingnuts have half the country...but they have to STAY THE HELL OUT OF OUR HALF!!

I don't even want those assholes around me! I want a country that is a 'Puke-free Zone! No 'Pukes allowed...period!

It's the only viable solution I see. Because they will not give up and go away. They will continue to kick and scream and fight...they will fight dirty. I'm just tired of fightint. I want to live. And if I can't live in my own country, I'll happily go somewhere else where I CAN live.

I can't stand watching my country destroyed by these right-wing assholes!

[liberalhistorian]

29. I'm also sick to death

and TIRED TIRED TIRED of fighting, which I've been doing since the sheeple were stupid and idiotic enough to vote that fuckhead Raygun into office when I was in high school. I'm beginning to think "fuck them, if they're too damn stupid and blind, I'm tired of fighting for them."

I can't stand the RW wingnuts pukes either, and would love to have them have their own damn country. The problem is, do you really think that they would leave us alone even if they had their own country?

They won't be happy until we're ALL under their thumb and control, even if we win this fall, which is one reason why we're in for one helluva cultural, religious, and political war!

[mermaid]

43. And That's Why I'm Getting Out If He Wins Again

I was in third grade when the fuckhead Raygun was elected. One of my happiest memories of childhood was hearing about the Hinckley attempt...I was hoping it had succeeded! I know, some of you may find that appalling, but I hated Raygun immensely, and I hate Bsh immensely, and I hated Poppy immensely. In fact, can't think of a Repuke I haven't hated and wished dead.

[smirkymonkey]

84. I think that's a great idea!!

After arguing with my conservative republican family all weekend, I realized that they will never change my point of view and I will never change theirs.

As it stands now, the two poles cannot live in harmony. If monkey boy wins, and there is no subsequent revolution, I am off to Europe. Can't put up with a majority that thinks along the lines of the neo-cons.

[Kimber Scott]

103. The problem is, they're not the majority

we are. It's just too many of us don't vote.

[liberalhistorian]

112. The last time the country was this

polarized and divided politically, culturally, and religiously, it took a Civil War to straighten it out. And I see exactly the same conditions and things happening now that were happening a few years before the country finally exploded into a Civil War.

The South felt the same way about Lincoln that we do about Shrub and made good on its threat to secede if he were elected. Maybe we should do the same thing!

[Virginian]

97. What parts do they get, the parts without oceans?

Except for the states of NC, SC, GA, and half of VA.
What are the border crossing rules?

[struggle4progress]

105. Some of us North Carolinians, suh,

are displeased by your suggestion that we should quietly hand over our state to those people. If they desire to live peacefully among us, of course, then we (being broad-minded people) will tolerate them.

[Virginian]

129. Do your larger cities tend to have more Dems and rural more Repubs?

I'm glad to hear from a Tar Heel. What part of the state are you in?

[mermaid]

132. Border Crossing Rules

Quite simple, actually. They set up rules for crossing into their half...we set up rules for crossing into our half. And the one rule for our half is: ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WINGNUTS ALLOWED!!

AND IT WILL BE ILLEGAL TO BROADCAST PIGBOY, OR ANY OTHER CONSERVO-CREEP RW TALK RADIO SHOW!

violators subject to deportation to the other side. And if the other side won't take 'em, we'll just launch 'em into space, or maybe exile them to Alcatraz or something...

[H2O Man]

21. It's not going to happen!

Bush ain't going to win. More, it won't be close enough for him to steal. We're winning this in November, my brothers and sisters, and we are going to continue to work to make America great again. Do not allow yourself to get anxious or depressed by this struggle. Life is good. Every day is a miracle! Think positive, and do not be afraid of the future.

[mermaid]

25. Man I Wish I Had Your Optimism!

Fact is, I'm plumb worn out from eight years of fighting already. I've been on the front lines of the struggle for equality for transgender people, like myself, for eight years now. And I'm worn out. I just wanna live in peace. And if I can't do it in America, I'm ready to go somewhere else where I can. Got room for one more, Canada??

Cold sucks, but I'll get used to it. It sucks less than a concentration camp...which is where transgender people like me will end up if the Bushistas get their way!

[liberalhistorian]

33. Not just transgendered will end

up in the "re-education camps", but damn near all of us! And I ain't being alarmist or exaggerative here, either! Maybe we could have some kind of "DU" barracks so we could at least all suffer together.

[smirkymonkey]

85. And remember, the holocaust

wasn't in full swing until Hitler's eighth year in power. Imagine what these people will do with another four years when they don't have to worry about re-election. Unless, of course, we become a military dictatorship by then.

[liberalhistorian]

113. EXACTLY!

That's what REALLY terrifies me. Sometimes I wish I didn't know as much about history as I do, I'm really beginning to understand what the phrase "blissful ignorance" really means, lol!

[_Jumper_]

121. Look into New Zealand

They are the only country in the world that has a transgendered member of parliament.

[mermaid]

133. I Know!

I have friends in New Zealand, and have considered moving there.

[struggle4progress]

106. I'll feel more optimistic when his polls drop further

[stevedeshazer]

24. I won't leave

I hope you won't, either.

Why leave when your country needs you the most?

[mermaid]

27. Why? I'll Tell You Why...

Because I don't want to DIE for it. That's why!

Transgender people like me will be the first targets.

[stevedeshazer]

38. I understand that. Fear of death.

Though I can't be smug and say that I know what it is like to be transgender.

If that's how you see it, do it, leave, and more power to you. I can't blame you, I know you are in a bad spot. Not because of who you are, but for what our sometimes wretched society thinks you are.

I'm too old and stubborn to give up. I'll die here no matter what. And if you stay, I'll stick up for you. :)

[x-g.o.p.er]

28. Fight!! Never Surrender!!

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
- Thomas Paine ("The American Crisis")

Never, ever, give up.

[liberalhistorian]

34. WOW! What a

perfect and appropriate quote for today, thanks! I don't want to be a "summer soldier or sunshine patriot" and this country is, indeed, worth fighting like hell for!

[stevedeshazer]

41. That's a fabulous quote

Thanks for bringing it to the fore. I will never, ever give up.

[Katha]

117. That's beautiful!

I won't give up. I'm just now really starting to fight.

[x-g.o.p.er]

135. Welcome to DU!! n/t

[camero]

30. Because of my health

I will probably try to go to Canada. Failing that what else is left but to fight? I've had a good life.

[H2O Man]

44. I have some good news!

Martin Luther King told the truth. Bush lies. King tells the truth. Martin went to the mountain top. This is literally true. It's symbolic language (all language is!) that this prophet used to deliver a message. He went to the mountain top. He saw the future. And that future is NOT a land with justice for some, and injustice for others. It is a land of justice for all. It will not come easy .... No! there is a great struggle coming! Listen: when you gather all of the positive things together -- people, trees, clean water, animals, rocks -- you also gather the negative force! And that is where "peace on earth" will come from: ridding ourselves of that dark force. Then, and only then, will we "cast the demons" of racism, sexism, jealousy, and greed, out of our national life. But it will happen. The moral arch of this universe is indeed wide, but the universal laws of nature will prevail. Be positive! Do not be afraid! Fear and negative thinking are what make people tired! You are not going to a "re-education" camp. Perhaps some of the bush administration do belong behind bars, and it may happen. But the people on here are not. King told the truth. Hold on to the truth.

[camero]

46. Good post

I'm not really worried about going to an re-education camp. I'm too stubborn to be re-educated...lol. I just don't want to go at thier hands without a fight.

[liberalhistorian]

51. I desperately hope you're right.

I really, really do. And it's nice to see some optimism of your caliber!

[mermaid]

52. I Wish I Had Your Faith, And I Wish I Believed You

But I live now in stark raving FEAR of: when are they coming to get me?? When are they gonna re-open the re-education camps?? When am I gonna get trucked off to a re-education camp?

I truly fear it. I really, honestly believe they will open the concentration camps at their very first opportunity, and me and other transgenders will be the first taken. And I am scared to death!

I can't live, function, and operate...and be happy, living continuously at the level of fear I have been living at the past couple years. I just can't take it, and that's the truth!

I'll leave first. May not stop them from coming to get me, but at least I'll buy a few years...

[LeahMira]

136. Don't be afraid...

... but don't be foolish either.

I truly fear it. I really, honestly believe they will open the concentration camps at their very first opportunity, and me and other transgenders will be the first taken. And I am scared to death!

There were so many people who refused to believe that Hitler really meant what he was saying or that the German people would really agree to such things. Many also tried to leave but found no nation that would accept them, or else the avenues were closed from their own nations.

I think you need to be concerned because, like Pastor Neimoller pointed out, they will come for us small group by small group, and people who are not heterosexual are certainly having a hard time of it at the moment.

I do think that the people would revolt if things got that bad, but probably only after several groups were targeted and only if they know what's going on.

Whatever your decision, I hope the best for you.

[Woodstock]

35. Give it until 2006 - that would be when we take back the Congress

If that fails, then think about leaving. If Bush is elected or re-selected in 2004, there is no way the charade can continue past 2006.

[Kazak]

37. I'm stayin'...

If Bush* wins fair and square (not!), so be it...who am I to defy the will of the people...I'll probably work for the impeachment movement or something along those lines.

If it appears as though the election was rigged...I'm headin' my ass up to DC myself to join the hordes of protestors and help push for revolution.

Viva America!

[liberalhistorian]

40. If they rig the election

or steal it again, maybe it would, indeed, be a good idea for all of us to head to D.C. as one mass movement!

[Kimber Scott]

104. I'm right there with you!

If I move somewhere, it's going to be because I want to, not because I was scared into it. I'll stay. I'll march and, if I have to, I'll fight.

I spent 9 years in the Army serving this country of mine. My ancestors fought in every war in this country's history and on both sides of the Mason/Dixon line. My husband gave 20 years to the Army and my son and daughter-in-law are currently serving in the Air Force. Thank God, they've both returned from Afghanistan safely. My people have worked hard and paid taxes and raised generations here. I will not let these "Bushistas" steal this country from me and mine. Period. Not without a fight.

[Mari333]

42. Leave

My husband and I are travelling to Canada in the summer and looking for a place to live near Windsor just in case. Theres no way I will stay here.
Ive had enough.

[foreigncorrespondent]

45. If bysome run of bad luck...

...he manages to get back in, I intend on telling Sapphocrat to get the hell out. We have too much riding on her staying and risking not being able to get out of the country again.

Sometimes ones personal life is just far more important than the love one has for a country.

I know Sapph is very proud of who she is, but I also know we have both suffered enough, are we meant to risk our relationship completely? I don't think so, and I am pretty certain she doesn't think that way either.

[Demeter]

47. To Leave Means There's an Alternative Place

For 300+ years, the US has been THE alternative for the world at large, an alternative for anyone whose class, religion, economic circumstances, education, or gumption didn't fit in the world he/she was born into.

To abandon the US en masse, we'd have to take our assets, education, and ideals somewhere that would welcome them and reward them.

Other than Canada, which might tolerate a limited number, I just don't see an option.

Furthermore, this cabal is dead set on putting the entire world under its fascist thumb--there may not be a place that they can't infiltrate and destroy.

So the only feasible alternative to suffering in silence is to fight.

Whatever Churchill said: We will fight them in the air, we will fight them on the sea, we will fight them in the streets, in the press, on the web, in the churches and the schools and town hall and Congress. For those unable to fight, exile is the only logical solution. But the rest of us are able, and never has our country needed that ability more. This is what America asks of us. It always has.

[NightTrain]

50. Please, Lisa, stay in the U.S.A!

I'd miss ya if ya left. :cry:

[liberalhistorian]

53. LOL!

Hi, honey!:hi: :loveya:

I'm pretty sure I will stay, but if things go well with us at our meeting, I will definitely stay! Unless you'd want to come with me, of course!

[NightTrain]

54. Come with me...

...to the seeeeeeea...ooooooooof...loooooooove! :loveya:

[rocktop15]

55. The sky isn't falling.

I think some people here really over exaggerate their fears. Bush is a horrible president. Probably the worst in the past 100 years but I'm not worried that the sky is falling. Voting for Kerry is probably the smartest thing anybody could do at this juncture. I will be voting against Bush. I've tried to get everyone I meet to vote against Bush. Bush is nowhere near as bad as Harding's administration in my book. He has done atrocious things but the world is not coming to an end.

[liberalhistorian]

56. Knowing history as I do, I must respectfully

disagree with you on that one, this is, frankly, the worst and most dangerous administration we've ever had. As bad and corrupt as Harding was, not even he was nearly as bad as this.

[alarimer]

62. yes

Especially if he gets 4 more years. Without having to worry about reelection, he will be able to be really radical. Plus there is the Supreme Court factor. Appointing 2-3 or more right wingers for lifetime appointments will destroy this country as we know it. The right to choose, gay rights, the environment,the Bill of Rights etc. will all be gone.

[Arianrhod]

66. I feel the same way.

* isn't just "another bad president"; he and his administration are openly contemptuous of our Constitution. These people don't even believe in the same country we do.

Just ask his model for the Supreme Court, Mr Scalia.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. Harding never started any wars

He was only president for 2 1/2 years, and the most notorious of his administration's scandals, Teapot Dome, was nothing compared to the daily stench that is swirling around the current misadministration.

Harding apparently also had a conscience, as it is said the tremendous shame of his administration's scandals is what led to his early demise.

[DerBeppo]

91. finally

a bit of reason. this thread seems to be lacking in it completely.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

123. boy you got that right.

"I think some people here really over exaggerate their fears."

hear, hear!

[mermaid]

134. I'm Not So Sure....

I think some people underestimate what this Administration, this heartless, cruel, selfish, ASSHOLE Administration is really capable of! I fear it! Terribly!

Terrorists? Bah! They don't scare me HALF as much as my own current government does...And THAT is saying something!

[VOX]

148. It's this kind of ho-hum attitude that the right wing counts on!!!

Now they want to amend the constitution, for Christ's sake. Our rights are falling away in large clumps. Another 4 years of *, and the damage will be so extensive that it will be difficult to correct.

The right wing is attempting to appoint reactionary judges left and right (make that *all* right). These are *lifetime* appointments! These people will be interpreting and determining the laws of the land for decades to come. Women's rights? Gone. Human rights? Gone. Environment? Gone. Religious freedom? Gone.

Please get just a bit worked up about this! :toast:

[liberalhistorian]

150. I know, it's incredibly

frustrating that too many people still just don't get it, isn't it? Drives me crazy. I'm afraid by the time they wake up, it'll be too late, if it isn't too late already.

[populistmom]

58. I'm stuck here

That's the story of my life: stuck, but regardless of my personal life, I also have educational pursuits I won't finish probably until 2006. I talked about moving to Canada with my husband last year and he hates the idea and even if I don't end up staying with him (long, long, painful series of stories), I don't want our children to not have their dad. At least he's smart enough that he's trying to get on the local draft board (we have three boys) for starters. Sometimes though, I would so love to just get the heck out of this sorry country at times though for sure.

I have a better idea: how about you move to Connecticut and when you're not hanging out with Dean, you can hang out with me and we can fight together? :)

[liberalhistorian]

63. LOL!

Sounds good to me, and I'm sure Dean would approve as well. Are you in the Hartford area as well? Of course, having Lieberman for a senator would be the only major drawback.

[populistmom]

65. I live

in the town next to Dean about 5 or 6 miles away. Lieberman's not too bad on the local level. We have far worse problems with our governor. Corrupt repuke SOB. :puke:

[jonnyblitz]

99. she isnt the only one in the area.

:hi:

[liberalhistorian]

114. Hi, Jonny!

If things go well with Dean and I in a couple of weeks, maybe I can come visit him and you and populistmom can join us as well! Just don't bring a particular picture with you, lol!

[alittlelark]

61. I will stay.and fight

Hey, I'm a soccer mom type, but I know what we CAN BE. I refuse to allow the hijacking of this great experiment. Yes, we are flawed, but unless 2/3 of the people around me are against me I will stay, because I am a fighter, I am articulate, I am intelligent, and I CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!! If I did not have children I would not even contemplate fleeing.

However I do have young children. We opened up a branch of our company in Vancouver 1 1/2 years ago, due to concerns. I keep all options open, yet I refuse to go down without a fight.

We can all make a difference. I got quoted in the SF Chron yesterday at a * protest. Maybe those words will help to change a couple of people.

THIS IS A GRASSROOTS EFFORT for the American psyche.

'He is probably the worst president in the history of this country', said (ME), The number of lies he has perpetrated on the American people is deplorable'

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/03/05/MNGQE5F1JL1...

If WE ALL participate in actions we can produce TREMENDOUS results.

True patriots do not flee.

[Spider Jerusalem]

64. If worse comes to worst...

then it's goodbye, United States. Staying to fight the good fight may be noble, but...if Bush is re-elected, then the US is going to be worse by far, I think, than the England that my New England Puritan and Pennsylvania Quaker ancestors departed in the 1600's and 1700's. If Bush wins a second term, my country is gone. And I will be too.

[BlackVelvetElvis]

67. No way I'm leaving

These are historical times, our children and grandchildren will read about this and when they ask us what we did during this time, what are we going to say? "I couldn't take it anymore, so I had to leave" or "I thought the US was worth fighting for so I stayed and did what I could". I'm not going anywhere, I'm going to fight.

[Bridget Burke]

68. I'm at the awkward age...

Too old to start over & too young to retire. I have varied skills but no graduate-level profession. Neither do I have a large sum of money at my disposal.

Before you leave, be quite sure that you'll be able to meet the legal requirements for immigration to your chosen refuge.

[aldian159]

69. I'll be there

fighting and dying for what you believe in is a very noble cause. I'll be there, should the time come.

[Melinda]

70. I'm going to give up and allow assimilation.

Seriously am. I'm beat down, emotionally exhausted, and depression is taking hold. I've fought the RW since my young love died in Viet Nam, and I can't do this anymore. I just can't. It's been tears for the last month, and it's tears as I type. lol, Tears for years - sounds like a rock group.

And I'm tired of being told that I'm less than a democrat, despite the fact I AM and always have been a democrat, because I can't dance to the DNC or DU march and rally round Kerry. So if Bush* and his cabal remain in power after 11/04, I'll take up drinking and begin to fade away.

A :toast: to those of you who'll stay and continue to wield the the sword, but mine is just too heavy these days.

[mermaid]

78. I Hear Ya

My sword is too heavy, anymore, too.

Much as I hate cold, it'll suck less than a concentration camp, so, if Canada has room for one more, I hope they will let me in!

[Melinda]

94. Despite what I wrote last night, I'll stay and I'll resist.

I can't imagine leaving and I can't imagine fighting, but I'll find the strength to resist and work from inside. I will... I have to.

We can work the underground together, mermaid. A virtual hug to you. :hug:

[Killarney]

71. We need to stay and fight for the midterm elections

Bush can't fulfill his agenda with a Democratically controlled Congress. We need to fight for every seat in the house and senate.

What's more dangerous than a second Bush term?

A second Bush term with Republican control of congress & senate. That would be the end to progress. Permanently.

We need to fight for the 2006 elections with ever fiber of our being at every local level.

[anarchy1999]

72. Look for inspiration: GrannyD, Studs Terkel, Kevin Phillips

Michael Moore, Jim Hightower, All the Whistleblowers, PeaceMakers, Veterans for Peace, CPT, Voices in the Wilderness, the list just goes on and on.

Don't forget Will Pitt, Scott Ritter, Ray McGovernon, Doug Rokke, all the families from 9/11 ...........

We Can't quit, we just need to hold our heads high and support the people in front. No one ever said it would be easy. The fight for social justice in this country continues on and I believe it will never be harder than now. One has to fight for the right. Justice will prevail, hopefully we can bring around all the "fundamentalists" that believe some type of Armageddon has to happen first. I like to believe that we have a better chance. That particular book might be a warning. I'm quite certain it says something about Christians led astray by false prophets.

[Bridget Burke]

74. Remember that Nixon won a second term after Watergate

Eventually it caught up with him & he didn't finish the term.

[Art_from_Ark]

76. Nixon didn't have anywhere near the resources that Bu$h does

He did not control the media. He did not control the Supreme Court. He didn't even control Congress.

Things have changed much in the past 30 years.

[liberalhistorian]

116. That's definitely true,

Nixon had nowhere near the power, resources, and control that the Bushistas do.

I'd take Nixon or even Raygun any day over the current illegal occupier of the WH. In fact, I'd take ANY OTHER U.S. PRESIDENT over this misadministration. And that's saying a lot, given how bad some of them were.

[DinahMoeHum]

77. I'd leave the country for a short while. Re-charge my batteries

for the long slog ahead. Go sailing, travel to the tropics, Spain, Portugal, Mediterranean, etc. Probably for a year-18 months.


:kick:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Alternate theory...

1) A major "terrorist" attack takes place sometime close to the 2004 elections;

2) Junior declares martial law;

3) Junior declares that the elections must be indefinitely postponed until the "terrorist threat" is eliminated from America;

4) It all gets worse after that.

[Malva Zebrina]

81. Depends upon what the "fight" is

If it consists of mealy mouthed Democrats seeking to preserve their own hides with little to say about the immorality of invasions of other countries, killing thousands of their civilians, on mere fabrication because of the desires and the coveting of an insane, less than intelligent, costumed, bad play actor on someone else's stage, then I will divest myself of everything that was ever this country and declare myself divorced from it.

If it is something stronger than that, I will join the movement and take to the streets or resist in any way that I can.

At that point, the "fight" will have to become more than passive type, mealy mouthed, vaguely referred to resistance and controlled rallies on the mall.And it will take focus and concentration on the tyranny of Bush, the neo-cons and the religious extremeists--not on the Palestinian cause, or the causes of any other socialist groups. I feel sorry that Haiti is once again under siege, but it will have no place in resisting a Bush if he gets elected again. We would need pointed and sincere aim at George Bush only, by the most people we could muster up.


It will take far more than what we have seen up to now. In order to do that, of course, there will have to be a will of the people to rise up against tyranny of George Bush, which will certainly be forthcoming--do we have it? I see little evidence of it now and to tell the truth have lost faith in my fellow Americans. We are so polite and behaved and patient as to almost enable the lies and Potemkin scenarios of the cowardly fascist, George Bush. Why is that?

[LandOLincoln]

82. I thought the same thing, that I'd flee to Canada and watch my country

go off the cliff from a relatively safe distance.

However, my family's here (in Illinois), and unlike nomad me they have deep roots there. I doubt they'd be persuaded to leave no matter what happens.

Then Wes Clark came along and actually gave me hope again, so I've decided to stay and fight, to go down fighting if necessary--and I mean that quite literally.

[davsand]

83. I am scared. For the first time in my life I am afraid.

I lived thru the bulk of the Viet Nam era, and Watergate and Iran Contra and I never felt terribly afraid of my country. I always repeated the mantra: I am an American, and by gawd, we have RIGHTS! Sickeningly, that is not the reality any more.

I have always said I'd stay and defend what I know to be right--the values that our forefathers brought to fruition in this nation. I have always felt that to do anything less than to stand up was a betrayal of every man who died in service to this nation and of every woman who ever tried to help heal the wounds after the battles were over.

I have voted, I have participated in the political process, and I have worked as hard as I can to advance the causes I felt strongly about. I felt it was my duty--that I could do no less and stay true to those who came before. It was my duty as someone who loved this country to be involved and to make it work.

With the issue of black box voting, and the erosion of civil rights, I've started to question what I owe this nation. With the media's abdication of their job, I've begun to wonder who really IS watching over this ship of fools. I've started to doubt that anyone is, and that those of us who DO see the problems will have any ability to change what is most surely coming.

I've talked to my husband about leaving. His initial reaction was that I am just paranoid--that it will never get "that bad". He feels the people will never stand for the kind of failures that I expect are headed our way. I wish I could take comfort from his optimism, but I can't anymore.

I have a six year old child. I am a "semi" public figure associated with progressive causes, as is my husband. We are KNOWN. We are on the radar, and we are gonna be targets. All the attorneys I know, all the organized labor ties we have, all the family support in the world will not make one whit of difference if they kick our door in some night and haul us all away to a camp.

The net result will be that our child will be in the custody of the government and our family will be torn apart because we dared to speak our minds. I can't accept that.

When it was just my husband and I, it was a matter of personal integrity to stay here if it got bad. I feel my blood is no more precious than anyone else who has ever died in support of this nation, but I refuse to let my child be put in danger from something that can be avoided. I'd never let her play with gas and matches--it'd be foolish to ignore this political potential as well.

I've made arrangements to get us out if it gets that bad. Yep--I've actually talked to people about getting out of this country--the one I have called my home for almost 44 years. If it gets down to it--I will keep my kid safe above all.

In the meantime, I'm seriously considering moving to someplace within about an hour of the border.

Laura

[Melinda]

93. Powerful post - a virtual hug to you.

I completely understand and empathize; thanks for sharing your situation and perspective. Let's all hope none of our worse fears come to pass.

[mdmc]

86. stay

I aint goin nowhere

[rfkrocks]

87. Great thought provoking post

I think bad times will be tough but I love my country. We are the spiritual descendants of Jefferson, FDR, jfk and of course RFK! What type of world would it be without those good people? I would like to reclaim 9/11 for what it really stood for. How brave and compassionate those people were that day. Think of the man who would not leave his wheelchair bound co-worker in the towers. They perished together-Christian and Jew, Hindu and Protestant and Muslim. The best of America went into the flaming buildings. It was diversity I saw in New York and all over the country. We were strong that day and compassionate-that is the America the world wept for that day and now sleeps- but it will awake!no right-wing, greedy, shallow moronic power grab will ever stop us from voicing our opinion-The Du is an example that there are many of us. Abandon our DU friends to like of who is in office now-I am not Mel Gibson's Pilate sympathetically washing my hands-if African Americans can overcome slavery I can fight on for freedom. But if we vote Bush won't win!

[NoPasaran]

88. No Pasaran! They Shall Not Pass!

I'm not going anywhere.

And I'm not letting them haul me off to any camp either. I hope to take of them with me to hell if it comes to that.

[symbolman]

89. We moved to Hawaii

it's one boat ride away from Tahaiti where I think I could probably (based on the "noise" I've made fighting against Bush and CO) apply for Political Asylum..

The Islands don't seem like they'd be much of a target, lots of rich folks here, and if some bio disease got loose we could shut down travel and contain ourselves here.. smaller, friendlier, more of a sense of community here as well..

If the world goes screwy we can eat bananas and re-invent the wheel just fine right here..

in any case, I've statistically got about 20 years left or so (actually people regularly live to 80 here so it may be closer to 30 years) and I want to be in a simple society where people laugh a lot (and they do here), you can't avoid the smell of earth and flowers, people eat well and swim in Tide E Bowl colored water..

it's not as expensive as you think either, and there's a BIG Internet trunk running through here..

So I'm safe enough, happy, and have a back door to run through if needed..

(actually saw a whale breach from my kitchen window last week..)

Canada? Too Cold.. Mexico? too poor.. most of my family is more than Happy to visit me here as well :)

Time for a swim..

[kayell]

92. Run and fight from a safe location

Seriously, I just discovered that I now have enough points to immigrate to Canada. But in 3 years, my points will start dropping. I think that the odds of things going really seriously wrong if * is reselected are too high to take the risk. I'll do anything I can to help with the fight to save the US, but I'm going to do it from a sane and hopefully safe place. I have too many family and friends here to ever totally blow the US off, but I also want to make sure that my DD and DGD have a safe place to run to if need be.

In any case, there is a lot more in US culture that I am seriously at odds with than just the repugs, esp. the heavy consumerist culture. This country really doesn't feel all that "mine" any more.

[struggle4progress]

95. OK it's bad

and could become much worse. But

(1) I think most people really agree with liberals on lots of issues (environment, health care, etc): they just don't know that it's the liberals they agree with. Look how hard Gingrich and his thugs worked to derail health care: they were terrified of its political consequences for them. Look at the republicans falling over on gay marriage. Our policies can win: we have a perception problem.

(2) It looks like the honorable Republicans are in somewhat scarcer supply nowadays than the have sometimes been; of course, the right-wing has always hated them. But as the current wackos continue to drive the country over the cliff, I'd expect to see major rifts develop. The majority of people are not ideology-driven and do not like ideology.

(3) Yeah, some ugly times may be ahead. But Gandhi won against British colonial brutality, and the South Africans won against a vicious police state copied from the Nazis, in both cases by intelligent nonviolent community organizing: if you can get people to do something, you're on your way. Mass media may not always be sympathetic, but it's not the only way to reach out.

(4) The extremists can be cunning, but there is an obvious problem with dictatorships: nobody is that smart. Sure, the SOBs take you by surprise from time to time, but if you watch them carefully, you can often figure out what they're up to. And they wilt in the sunshine.

[goclark]

98. Take To The Streets

If the Repubs "win" in November, we would know for sure that it is another stolen election and we can not let that happen. I believe that instead of rolling over in shock like before, people witl take to the streets ala Vietnam and Civil Rights days.

[allalone]

100. no way

I'm a 65 year old grandma and I am NOT going down without a fight.

[struggle4progress]

101. If the history books ...

were more accurate, they'd show that grandmothers have saved this country more than once.

[Skittles]

102. THE LIKES OF BUSH INC. WILL *NOT* RUN ME OUT OF MY COUNTRY

NOT NOW, NOT EVER

[9215]

107. I don't know

I've said I would leave if I had the means. But I don't know if Bush can withstand the kind of shit coming down on him. Remember Nixon won his second term but then went down in flames. Bush has really created some problems for himself with Wilson/Plame. The other scandals may be more easily weathered. Iraq could go on for years with Bush Co. raking in the profits. Wilson/Plame is really going to be serious if the truth comes out about his involvement.

If I thought Bush would just stay in power and set about to destroy the country then yea, I would put an extra effort out to get out of here. IMO he is determined to destroy the government by bankrupting it; if he gets another term he may just do it.

[Piperay]

108. I've already decided

that whether the Democrats win or lose I am leaving, my goal is to be out of here realistically no sooner than five years and no longer than ten years from now. I think that this country is to far gone and even with a Democrat in it's to late to bring it back. :-(

[DebJ]

111. Amen liberal historian! You also know that Revolutions take time. It will

take a lot of time to take our country back. How will we do this without the media though???

[liberalhistorian]

115. Good question!

That's what DU and all the other liberal/progessive and indie media outlets are for. And the Internet media and web sites like this one aren't nearly as easily controlled and turned into the corporate media whores like the mainstream media.

[robertpaulsen]

118. Another Democrat willing to FIGHT!

Reading this post and the responses made me scared. Not because there was anything said about Bush that I didn't already know. What was scary was hearing from so many who feel, like I do, that as bad as things have been, they will only get worse.

I wrote a screenplay called American Odyssey in 2002 around the time Bush was planning to drum up support for attacking Iraq. I felt the country being polarized so I envisioned America in 2067 in the middle of a civil war because of our tremendous loss of civil liberties at the hands of a repressive authoritarian government. My fear is that my prediction was off by 60 years. So many people here seem to feel the same way and are so incensed over it, how could we not fight? WE ARE THE REAL PATROITS. LET'S TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK!!!

[liberalhistorian]

119. I agree, RP, and I think

most everyone else here would too. When it comes right down to it, I think most of us would stay and fight. Although the temptation to flee would be mighty strong should he "win."

I think we're going to see a real civil war if that happens, I really do. I've never seen the country this divided and polarized before along so many lines, cultural, religious, political, etc. This is the way it was just before the Civil War. The question is, are we ready for the terror and the tremendous sacrifices that will be necessary?

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

122. where in the hell am I going to go?

huh?

Alot of folks dont have the luxury of having some in-demand proffesional qualification that would permit us to emigrate.

anyway, too much paranoia in your post for it to be taken seriously. If we are going anywhere its going to me more like the 1950s, or 1920s. Not some sort of civil war or anything like that.

If you dont like the direction the US is going in by all means leave. It just sounds like crazy talk to me.

[liberalhistorian]

127. No, I'm afraid you're wrong

there. We've never had a prez with this much control, resources, and power, who's done the damage he's done in just three short years. Give me the 1950's or the 1920's any day at all over what's going to happen. And a few years before the Civil War happened, people were saying the same thing, that nothing would happen, that it was all just a bunch of alarmist bullshit, etc.

I see the same conditions happening now that existed right before the Civil War, including the same intense cultural, religious, and political divisions and polarizations, even among families and friends.

[Dob Bole]

124. What's up with you bunch of Alan Colmes'? I'll stay and fight!!!

If he stole another election, there would be even more backlash. Can't believe that there are people here who would honestly give up. Then again, I live in Georgia, which is bearable and Republicans have no leeway in state politics. But still--onward DU soldiers!!!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

130. My family has been here since before this place was a country

hell, we've been in TEXAS since the 1700s, before it was a state.

Time outta mind.

And I'll be DAMNED if some dipshit carpetbagger walking sac of pus and his idiot, lying, immoral buddies are going to cause me to leave my home.

Nope. Staying and fighting. To the BITTER fucking end, if need be.

(Hee hee, my name doesn't quite fit my persona, does it? I just thought about that.)

[Lindsey]

137. One of my best friends (who has money)

is building a house now in Costa Rica. I've thought about going there or maybe Van Couver but I don't know if it's financially feasible for me. I, also, would be perfectly willing to move to another part of the country if we could divide the country in half (as much as I love it here in California), I'd move to the east if it was split east and west (but there are a lot of lefties here in the West). I know it sounds absolutely crazy but a friend and I were having a REAL serious convesation about this and how logistically everything could happen. I'm thinking more North and South with the liberals going North and the conservatives going south. States could split and I could live in San Francisco instead of L.A.!! Hey, I can think of worse things.

[amazona]

138. leaving is not going to be an option for most

The dollar is already in the toilet. You are unlikely to be able to be approved to work legally in Europe, so I hope you can fund a lifetime's retirement if you plan to live there. If you've got your savings in U.S. dollars, well, lots of luck -- the administration has destroyed the value of your money overseas. Don't know the situation in Canada -- they do have a skilled worker program -- so maybe you can try that. Most Americans would not be allowed to work in another nation, so leaving is not a serious option for most of us unless we wanted to take up a life of crime or working under the table for a dollar a day or something.

[goclark]

140. What we Can Do NOW!

My heart was in pain after reading the frustration that we all have about the current administration.
We need to STAY POSITIVE and GET in gear.

Bottom line, We are all too strong to let a band of thugs run us out of OUR country!

What We Can Do NOW!!

Examples:

* Attend the Kerry Meet Up's in our cities ( I was a loyal Clark supporter but I am now ready to face reality and wholeheartedly support Kerry)
* Put a Kerry/Democrats Bumper Sticker on Our Cars

* Vow to visit the DU website daily to see how we can make a difference by sending letters to the editors,emails that will make a meaningful difference

* Send emails/notes of appreciation to all media people that understand our point of view, blast away at Novak and Co.

* Donate to the campaign

I could go on and on
but I'll start another thread
and hope that all of you will add to it.



:yourock:

[liberalhistorian]

141. You're right, I know you are.

Staying and fighting is the best thing we can do for our country. Yes, OUR country, goddamnit, not just that of the wingnut neocons who are now so gleefully destroying it. And we owe it to all who've come before us and who've fought before us.

At the same time, I've never been this scared or this discouraged and frightened over our very future. My knowledge of American history tells me that we've never faced this danger before, and never had a worse, more dangerous administration ever. And if this is what they're capable of within just a few short years, imagine what another four will do. Especially since they won't be restrained by having to run for re-election.

And I don't think they're going to go away quietly, either, or give up power easily, either. We're in for a helluva time, people. God help us all, 'cause we're gonna need it.

And if we do end up in the camps, maybe we can have a "DU" area where we can at least all suffer together!

[YNGW]

143. Why would I leave?

>I have never seen the country this polarized and this divided, including among my own family and friends and even in my church, and it's beyond heartbreaking. I'm seeing things happen that I never in one hundred million years thought would EVER EVER happen in this country.

I hope you aren't under the illusion that a Kerry presidency would change that. He won't unite anyone. We only THOUGHT they gave Clinton hell.

Besides, I control my life. The person in the White House doesn't.

During my lifetime, there will be D presidents and R presidents, some good and some bad. So what. I go with the flow. It's just a matter of knowing the system and how to make it work for you no matter who's in charge.

I'm not going anywhere.

[yellowdawgdem]

144. another post on what to do

I've been giving this some thought, have been for a long time. I like the idea of taking a summer to travel around to some of these places that have been mentioned, such as Canada, Beliz, Costa Rica. The European countries seem even safer, but that would take more money and time than I have at the moment. What I've noticed from travelling is that I often don't like the places that are highly touted, and find really interesting places on my own that are not well advertised. But aside from this idea of doing some travelling, I really am not planning on moving anywhere as of yet. I have given some thought to moving to a border state- Seattle, Minneapolis, San Diego, are places I've considered. This would be to make it easier to get away quickly if that became necessary. I don't like to think negatively, yet at the same time I don't think it's a good idea to be in denial. I see that most people I know are just stuffing it all under the rug, and don't want to look at this possibility. I think if I had children, I'd be a nervous wreck, and as it is, I worry about my cats, and the family I have here. In a way, it is nice to have this time to decide what to do. We are not sure if it will be more like Nazi Germany, or more like Russia under Stalin. Probably it will be more like a weird sci fi novel, but again hopefully we can correct things with a democratic president, etc.
I am glad that this thread got started, because it opens up a possibility of honest dialog on a subject that it takes great courage to discuss.

[scottxyz]

145. Leaving IS fighting in a way

Imagine what would happen to the US if there was big brain drain of all the smart, internet-informed people leaving - so all that was left was the idiots who believed in Bush because they got suckered by dopey TV ads.

Wouldn't be all that good for the economy, real estate values, etc.

Sometimes turning your back can be a very effective tactic.

[liberalhistorian]

151. That is certainly a

different and very interesting perspective. However, what about the people who do NOT agree with the Bushistas but who don't have the money, resources, or professional qualifications to leave? That would really put them in hell.

[yellowdawgdem]

146. leaving a way of fighting

I suppose there is no one way of doing things. Certainly if enough valuable people left, it would have an effect. However, that more reminds me of what happened in Russia when things were very bad. So many of their most talented people got out of there, and it did have an effect- but took a really long time. The biggest thing that helped was when Stalin finally croaked. I think that I agree with the person who said if we were going to really fight, ok, but didn't want to stay just to watch dems knuckle under.

[Jose Diablo]

147. This is my home, there is no place to go

I will make my stand here. The form of 'fighting back' cannot be determined at this time, but yes, some things are worth fighting and/or dying for.

[cap]

149. overseas is not an option

The Bush administration has a global impact. I've heard Europeans and South Americans say that they wish that they could vote in our elections because our country has such a huge impact on their daily lives.

You can run but you can't hide. You can gain a temporary respite for a while at best. Do you think the Bush administration will let draft dodgers hop the border to Canada? No. They will pressure the Canadian government to return people.

The global economy will render socialist solutions non competitive. That's what this is all about. A global stripping of workers rights. A reordering of the Middle East is really the privatization of socialist regimes for the benefit of American multinationals. Don't think that Europe will not be affected by this.

Do you think that the sixties were a picnic? No. The sixties ruined people's lives. There were scads of people who were physically and mentally harmed who never recovered or took a long time to recover. People were burnt out of their homes and it took a long time to get back to where they were before financially. People had their careers ruined and lost their jobs over the Vietnam war and civil rights. People died for the right to vote.

Was it worth it? Yes. It was a life worth living. People understood the courage of their convictions. When you hear the old timers talk, there is a lot of pain in their voices but also a lot of pride. There is a price to be paid for anything worth having.

[Hotler]

152. The reason I have a gun permit...

and a gun is to protect myself from the Neo-cans if the worst happens. I'm going to stay and fight. We should be marching in the streets now.

[liberalhistorian]

153. I think it won't be long before

we will be once people start waking the hell up.

[cdfoy]

154. I cant beleive Kerry said this

John Kerry: “ without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real.” (Sen. John Kerry, Remarks At
Georgetown University, Washington, DC, 1/23/03)

[noonwitch]

155. I live near the border, so quick escape is possible

I'll stay and fight.

[cdfoy]

156. and KERRY said this also

ohn Kerry: “When I vote to give the president of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security….” (Sen. John Kerry, Congressional Record, 10/9/02, p. S10174)

but how was he lied to when he served as

John Kerry 1984 Lieutenant Governor, United States Senate, Sen. 1982-current, Sub-Committee on Communications, Sub-Committee on East Asian and Pacific Affairs Ranking Member, Sub-Committee on European Affairs

[Lydia Leftcoast]

157. I go back and forth on this

I'm already rather alienated from mainstream America culturally, in that I don't particularly like cars, big houses, team sports, TV, suburbs, or patriotic displays, so it wouldn't take much to push me over the edge.

On the other hand, my mother and stepfather are 82 years old.

Yet things could get really bad if Bush actually won the election or stole a second term, and I have excellent contacts in Japan and know that I can live there comfortably.

Yet I suppose I should stay and fight.

Yet going to Japan in 2002 and being away from all the politics felt so GOOD, and what's the point of fighting for people who don't want to be fought for and are happy in their little Republican dreamworld? The Japanese government is monumentally corrupt, but it's not mean-spirited, and it's actually thinking seriously about the future--environmental problems, the graying of its society, jobs for youth, etc.

Yet I just made a major move and am beginning to establish some real ties.

Yet is there a risk in being too comfortable and getting stuck in a potentially dangerous place.

SIGH!

[yellowdawgdem]

158. Yeah if only we knew more

-like what to expect, and how or what to prepare for. Maybe, for you, just having the contacts in Japan is what's impt. Then having the money for getting there, etc. if that turns out to be what you decide. I flip flop constantly on this whole thing, too, partly because I essentially feel that the U.S. is already ruined in essential ways. I mean, even if Kerry wins,he will be somewhat a puppet. A much better puppet, certainly. But he will have a hostile senate and house, with some serious enemies. At least, though, there would be a better feeling, and a sense of optimism- if that happened.

[Undemcided]

159. I'll have a pint

But then again I always have a pint. :evilgrin: