Moveon.org Ad will likely hurt us more than help us!

[doubles]

The ad almost blames Bush for 9/11. Whether true or not, the ad will not appeal to the swing voter. We have to get our message across in a more subtle yet powerful manner. Quoting Richard Clark also makes him seem totally partisan. This type of advertising is not how we win elections.

[maveric]

1. No, we cant be subtle anymore.

We've tried that before and we werent heard. The clueless braindead crowd in this country needs to be woke up somehow.
We need to tell it and show it like it is.

[skooooo]

15. I agree.....playing "nice" doesn't cut it anymore.

[aquart]

2. The truth will hurt us?

You think swing voters are too delicate for reality?

[Windy]

11. Windy

Move On might have asked Richard Clarke's permission before using his statement. He said on Hardball tonight that he didn't know anything about the ad and wasn't happy about it. I don't think it will be running much longer. That fact alone makes me question Move ON's professionlism. This type of irresponsible behavior doesn't help our cause.

[doubles]

32. Swing voters are not us here DUers, they do not think like us, this ad

will turn them off the same way Dean's Ads turned off voters in Iowa!

[sendero]

45. Apparently...

.... they are only too delicate for right wing reality. They dish out the unproven, the fantastic, the fabricated from whole cloth bullshit every day, but the left should maintain civility and balance.

Fuck that, and fuck everyone who still thinks that has a remote chance of working. Wake up and smell the reality. There is more evidence to support the idea of LIHOP than there is for a fraction of what the winger talking points crew spill every single day.

[Dookus]

3. Nonsense

Kerry will be accused of everything and anything before this campaign is over. We're supposed to pull back if we "almost" blame Bush for something?

It's a good ad. It's true. It's powerful. THAT is what will get swing voters.

[doubles]

34. The same way Dean's Ads turned off voters in Iowa, this ad will turn off

swing voters. Put yourself in their shoes. This is our problem, lately we have been acting on instinct!

[leesa]

40. BS. The problem is Dems are spineless wimps.

The media created the Dean debacle out of absolutely nothing and they will do it no matter what we say or do so outing the truth is best. Don't roll over and play dead once again.

[doubles]

42. There are two ways to skin a cat.....nt

[sampsonblk]

47. Their shoes are made in GOP focus groups

The GOP has been brutal against us since at least 1994, and we have been weak in response. Some are advocating even more weakness. I say not.

At this point, swing voters don't mind hearing that Dems are friends of the terrorists, or that we are supported by Saddam, Osama and Kim Jong Il. That is crap. But they don't wanna hear that Bush sucks? Well we are NOT friends of terrorists, and Bush DOES suck. Its time we fought back with truth.

[koopie57]

4. I agree we need to fight back and hit them hard

but I think that Richard Clark deserves our respect for what he has done and that if he doesn't want to be in the ad then the decent thing is remove him from it.

[efhmc]

5. Sorry, but you are wrong. You are certainly allowed your opinion but it is

wrong.

[H2O Man]

6. I think that the commercials are great.

Quoting Clarke does not make him partison. Clarke is telling the truth. The American public has the right to hear the truth. If the democrats tell the truth more often than republicans, so be it.

[kera]

7. why not

people like straight forward language, most of the time

those who don't , just forget about them they are stupid how could you persuade a stupid mind? don't even try and you know why because they never call into question their own judgment if any, trust me.

we need to get out of those sckeme of thought that caused people to sleep for a long time

[ixion]

8. we need to take the fight to them

rather than waiting for them to pummel us with BS. Personally, I think the 'appeal to the center' notion is overrated.

And besides... BUSH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR 911.


It happened on his watch. No ifs ands or buts.

[cureautismnow]

27. Damn Straight. There's Too Much at Stake.

Hit these bastards with everything but the kitchen sink. I demand 24/7 commercials that show EVERY instance of Bush-boy's miserable failures. Case in points:

-He just sat there and listened to the goat story AFTER he knew we were under attack. While the Towers burned and the Pentagon plane took aim, HE DID NOTHING. NO INTERCEPT ORDERS. NO EVACUATION MEASURES. NOTHING. ZILCH. COMPLETE and UTTER FAILURE on 9/11/01. The WORST SECURITY FAILURE IN THE HISTORY OF THE U.S.A. on HIS watch.

-He flew his Bin Laden family business partners out of the country on 9/12/01 when every one else was grounded. What an egregious intelligence FAILURE.

-His misadministration has lost millions of jobs on his watch. He's a 100% MISERABLE FAILURE.

-The Taliban are regrouping. Bin Laden is NOT caught "Dead or Alive." The Iraqi "Mission" is Not Accomplished. Thousands of innocent people's blood was/is shed over an OUTRIGHT LIE when the TRUE reason to go to war in Iraq was to avenge his worthless daddy. COMPLETE AND OUTRAGEOUS FAILURE.

-SH challenged him to a duel. Typically, he wussed out and sent American women to fight for him instead. Then, he prances around the aircraft carrier like he personally went to war. ABSOLUTE FAILURE in being a man.

-Abject FAILURES on balancing the budget, equitable tax cuts, preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution of the U.S., protecting the environment, creating good will amongst countries of the world that we need cooperation in the fight against "evil-doers," "restoring honor and dignity" to the WH, protecting the identity of intelligence operatives, taking responsibility for ANY of his infinite screw-ups, ETC. ETC. ETC.

The man is a living, breathing MISERABLE FAILURE. The sad truth is that he has been a half-assed SLACKER his entire life. He failed in all his business dealings, failed in his military service, failed as a baseball owner (swindling millions from taxpayers and then cutting and running), failed as governor. FAIL, FAIL, FAIL.

This LOSER MUST GO BACK TO CRAWFORD in November - No ifs, ands, or buts. If it takes a zillion dollars to expose this fraud to every American voter, then so be it.

Bring it On for the next 7+ months!
:spank:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

9. Are you asking us to BOHICA?....

...Bend Over Here It Comes Again?

That path will give us four more years that will be FAR worse than the four we've already endured.

Grow a backbone and quit whining.

[ikojo]

10. AMEN!!!! Why are people attracted to Nader?

Because he is not afraid to tell it like it is.

The Republicans do not worry about how they appear to swing voters. It is time Dems take the gloves off and FIGHT.

Politics is not for the weak.

[Gloria]

12. Clarke tried to maintain his credibility by fending off the attacks on him

which tried to portray him as partisan...(shill for Kerry, pro-Clinton) and also tried to show he was a liar.

So, using him like this, esp. after he asks to be removed, undermines him and gives the right more ammunition. The average TV viewer will not be interested in the subtleties....they'll just him up there and equate him as being just anti-Bush.

Remember, he said there's enough blame to go around, so this really twists his message. While very critical of Bush, it's not what his whole book is about.

No donations from me if this is what they want to do.

There are plenty of others who said a lot of what Clarke was sayingand they are politicians. This includes Wesley Clark. And Bob Graham. Joe Wilson, former diplomat, has also been out there on the Niger story.

[Sulldogg]

13. but something

should be done because he was on Hardball and said he didn't like having his voice on that ad, that he hadn't approved it and was not happy they were using it.

[Sterling]

14. Clarke does not "own" his testimony

He can't "ask" for those words not to be used. The more those words are heard by Americans the more they will understand that Bush does not make them safe.

[SOteric]

28. Agreed.

Clarke spoke publicly and for the record. He doesn't 'own' the rights to his words anymore than Nixon owned his "I am not a crook" moment or Clinton owned his "I did not have sex with that woman" assertion. I'm sure that many who've spoken on the public record would love to have their words be protected from news programs, political campaigns and late night comedians.

People who speak publicly and for the record have to accept that their words and images are public in a free society and they've very little input or control over how they will be used. If the statements are not proprietary (and they're not), protected under a secrets act or court order (and they're not), or untrue and slanderous (and we've no reason to believe they're anything of the kind) - then they're public and in the public domain.

Regardless of how I may empathise and sympathise with Clarke, I do not in any way concur that he has a right to more than the public expression of his disappointment. Which he's made.

Courts all over the country have upheld the right of public media to use the statements and film footage of even private citizens based on the public's right to know. This is campaign footage, but is not substantially different. It certainly isn't mudslinging, and I applaud MoveOn for at least keeping it to within the realm of calling attention to fact rather than the dirty pool and outrageous lies not uncommon in politicking.

[Blue_Roses]

35. Clarke may not

"own" his testimony, but there is something called, "tact" and I think the ad undermines his credibility. It makes him look partisan--which isn't the overall tone of his book. He is critical of Clinton too in the book and I sure don't won't that used in an ad.

It may be his testimony and that may be open to the public, but it looks sleezy and underhanded. They will use it against us by slamming Clarke as being partisan.

[Posinegativeman]

33. Clarke said it. Why not use it for gain?

It's not like he isn't on our side. Honesty is always the best approach in politics.

[mazzarro]

16. How is it that when rethuglicans are blunt, direct, false and wrong

no one says or cries about such being hurtful to the conservative and/or rethuglican prospect in an election. However if Democrats or liberals or progressives do the same everyone hews and cries about how inappropriate and damaging to us such an act will be. This, IMHO, is why we end up with timid leadership in the party and in congress because we are always offering tepid responses to rethuglican aggression most of the time! I am sick and tired of us being too subtle all the time! The average block-headed citizen does not get subtlety - It must be DIRECT and OPEN and IN-YOUR-FACE!

[Windy]

21. While we need to be in your face, you have to do it professionally

Otherwise you sink to the level of the other side and given them more ammunition to use. Most people only pay attention to sound bits and ads. I have a friend who isn't voting for bush, but she said that she may be staying home this election because she didn't like Kerry either because he "flip flops". Where do you think she got that idea? I was livid. I told her to READ and not make snap judgments based upon propaganda.

I agree, be bold, be aggressive. Right is on our side, but only use the statements and comments of those who give you permission. I think in the eyes of the sound bite American, this hurts Clarke's credibility and will have an effect on Kerry in the short run.

I hate to say it, but stating the obvious, most Americans are as disengaged as our president. If its not in their immediate back yard, they don't care. Give it to me quick and don't make me think. That's why we are in the fix we are currently in in this country.

[madfloridian]

25. Do Republicans and the media get permission to use sound bites?

I don't think so. Being more and more polite and correct will not get Americans engaged. It will take far more than that.

[hummingbird]

37. Hmmm, not sure I agree, Windy

First of all, I think the only way we are going to win is to "stoop" to their level, but the difference we will have is truth is on our side, which we can USE to slap these folks upside the head.

I also think that one of the reasons that we get into trouble is because of this attitude "Right is on our side". It's a bit too much like a missionary statement.

Sorry, Clarke is being targeted on more than one front, but it IS what he said and people need to be aware of the incompetency, if not outright conspiracy of the Bush admn...

Besides to be honest, I think Clarke has a considerable amount of credibility, and the more the Bush crowd tries to discredit them, quite often the better he looks....

[madfloridian]

17. I believe some want to effectively hush anyone not being cautious.

I am wondering why Richard Clarke is playing it so cautiously, almost appearing to backtrack on Hardball a couple of times. He is a powerful presence with much to say, he is starting to be too careful with his words.

I think he should say that MoveOn should stop the ad, but MoveOn should NOT stop the ad. He said the words, and he should now own them. If he did not mean them, he should not have said them.

I have noticed as well all the pressure on Dean to be politically correct, especially from anyone connected with the Kerry campaign.
This is ridiculous. Dean is not and has never been asked to be surrogate. Why should he have his words vetted by Kerry? He is his own man. He is starting to be too cautious, now.

Why should we not be controversial? The other side is strident and abusive to us. Some act like we should be so careful about speaking up to them.

I do NOT think MoveOn should pull the ads. I really don't see how Clarke thinks this is going to be kept non-partisan. Heck he is now even being kind to Condi. Say the words, mean them, and distance himself from the ad.

Please everyone quit being so apologetically humble to the right wing! I hate this sometimes.

[DianeG5385]

18. Here's the difference, we have a conscience

Considering the deceptive crud that GOP and Bush is throwing at Kerry we are not very good at fighting back on their terms. They never apologize for their ads, why should we apologize for ours? Makes us look weak and sqeamish. If we believe it to be the truth why back down? I realize Clarke is unhappy, but too bad. He gave us the ammunition and it is legal to use it. Stop apologizing for the truth!

[napi21]

19. Doubles, I think you're wrong on this one.

Dems have been TOO polite for TOO long! It's ads like this one that generate doubt. Doubt generates curiosity, at least from those people who still think!

The hard line Bush supporters either won't listen, or they'll call us dirty mean & nasty, but those who are beginning to question why we are in Iraq will increase their curiosity. The next information they listen to just might swing their final decision.

[Ladyhawk]

20. I didn't know that Richard Clarke didn't OK this...

...or I wouldn't have donated to MoveOn for this ad.

Clarke may not "own" his testimony, but I think his wishes should be respected.

[madfloridian]

22. Why should he tell MoveOn what ads to run?

The membership saw and approved the ad copy by donations.

[Sulldogg]

43. It's his voice,

The testimony is fine, but if they are using his voice against his wishes, I am not at all okay with that.

[madfloridian]

46. Is it illegal? Does Kerry want his voice used against him in GOP ads?

That is my point. The GOP will do anything to destroy us.

[Sulldogg]

48. This man helped us a great deal,

SO we thank him with a slap in the face????

[KoKo]

50. Sadly, I agree. It's courtesy to ask, and especially with the pressure he

is under from the Admin and jackals of the RW. It wasn't fair of him not to ask him. I wouldn't want my voice taken and put in an ad without someone asking. I'm surprised they didn't think of that. :shrug:

[thebigidea]

23. poor Bush, he should never accept any blame for anything

[kimchi]

24. The truth cannot hurt us.; although it may hurt to hear it.

Too damn bad. America needs to hear it. Sorry if it hurts their poor brainwashed ears.

[NNN0LHI]

26. Hit em high and hit em low. And when they go down kick their teeth in

Nice doesn't win elections. Nice has never won an election. Never. We may go down, but we will go down like fighting sonuvabitches kicking and scratching all the way. I would rather die in my feet than my knees. Get a grip man. We are not going up against nice people here. Learn that well. And never forget it either.

Don

[madfloridian]

30. I am with you on that 100%.

:hi:

[Posinegativeman]

29. Why lie?

We all agree it was all bush's fault. Why not advertise it?

[shoopnyc123]

31. Clarke was sending us a message...

and we should listen. He's set us up well, and now are about to fuck it up QUICKLY.

[juajen]

36. I totally disagree

Richard Clarke said what Richard Clarke said!!! Moveon.org is a wonderful organization and I think their ad will resonate even if some find it objectionable. I'm glad they refused to pull it. I'm also glad that Clarke objected to it; it makes him seem non-partisan, as I truly believe he is.

[doubles]

38. Look at the BIG picture folks!

[leesa]

41. So sick of whiny dems. This is WAR buddy and you are fighting for the

life of your country. This is a crime syndicate we are fighting against. They eat people like you for breakfast lunch and dinner and laugh all the way to the bank. Do you think the 9-11 comission would even be THIS far if it hadn't been for very angry people taking these people to task in NO UNCERTAIN terms. We are waaaay beyond school lunch programs. These people are actively commiting treason and they need to be thrown out. No nicey-poo!

[leesa]

39. Right. We better just be good little dems. Shut up keep, our heads down

Bring the K-Y if we don't like it too rough. It is NOT the time to be nice anymore. Nice try.

[gemlake]

44. Playing nice will get us nowhere

The ad presents what Clarke has said about Bush*. It is powerful and it tells the truth. Why are some people afraid of fighting back?

[ibegurpard]

49. So what should we talk about?

A prescription drug benefit? That worked SO well in 2002. :eyes:

[question everything]

51. According to ABC News, Clarke wants his comments removed

and moveon.org said it would honor his wishes.