War poll

[JVS]

Two options. Please pick one and explain why.

[Minstrel Boy]

1. There's just one option:

End this absurd atrocity now!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

2. it was a lie going in...staying in won't make it a truth...bring'em home

[i_c_a_White_Ghost]

3. Bush at War with Self! The World!

How many more will die for the 'bush war'?

War seems nice in the White house, the hawks are giddy and bush is still looking for WMD under his desk!

[JVS]

4. kick

[sampsonblk]

5. Another Option

Bush broke it. Now we have to fix it. I don't see any honor in this. But we can't leave the place a wreck. The arabs will hate us even more, and our enemies will use Iraq as a rallying cry and a base of ops against us.

[JVS]

7. That falls under peace with honor

Because there are really only two choices, go or stay.

[Zinfandel]

14. That's fucking bullshit... You fall for this BULLSHIT? The same shit Nixon

gave us, as tens of thousands more American soliders were killed for nothing, so the republican Nixon could have his "peace with honor". Nothing but a bullshit excuse to keep American soldiers dying for the weapons makers and corporate imperialist...in this case the oil greedy imperialist.

We ended up with almost sixty thousand Amemican soldiers dead, sixty thousand. And then proceeded to get our asses kicked out of Vietnam. Of course the lies were exposed and the world wasn't threatened as we were told. And we were all taken for a bullshit corporate ride with the lies of "peace with honor"!!!

Peace with honor is bullshit and shove it up the ass...just means more soldiers dying for NOTHING (but corporate, military and polictical interest)!!!!

[JVS]

18. Relax. I am not advocating either side. As poll taker I prefer to be...

neutral in this thread.

I am saying that the "We have a responsibility to clean up the mess we made or we will look bad" argument is equivalent to "peace with honor"

The person to whom I responded said the poll needs another choice. I just told them the category that their proposed choice falls under.

[Zinfandel]

23. That wasn't clarfied was it? To most "peace with honor" means

the same thing as the republicans used it in the last prelong war we were in (Vietnam)...keep fighting until we are able to leave, with us killing more of them, making more money for the corporate interest, and adding more American dead bodies, for what in the end? For a bullshit image of "peace with honor" what a lie, for the idiot American people back in Indiana or Iowa, so they can feel good about being an American and rah rah wave that flag were the greatest and I'm patriotic, love it or leave it dude!

"Leaving things the way they were"? Get fucking real...there wasn't huge US air bases in Iraq a 13 month's ago nor American oil companies drilling, or Halliburton or Bechtel or everything else that they tell us makes it better for the Iraqi people... force it down their throats, "it's better for you", you'll like it, because we like it. While our corporations, (who pay no taxes) are making profit off it, hehehe. Do we make Iraq in our (American) image and that's the way it should be???

[JVS]

26. Please argue with someone who is actually taking a position in this thread

I am just polling.

[goddess40]

8. I agree - but turn our troops over to the UN

we've proven 'we' aren't interested in peace. We train our troops to kill, but not what to do after the enemy and half the innocent civilians are dead.

[Sparkly]

10. Peace with Responsibility to the people we've burdened with this Mess

I agree -- it's not about our "honor." We didn't have that going in, and we won't have it going out. It's about stablizing and rebuilding what we destroyed, and the only way is to get international support by giving up the political control and the oil.

[sampsonblk]

21. I agree

Its not the same as "peace with honor" at all. Honor is about public perception -- not losing face.

Fluck that. I am talking about not leaving a basket case that's going to come and bite us in the ass later. If we leave there now, we will have solidified our place as the al Qaeda's Great Satan. They won't have to bring up the crusades to get recruits. They will have a present-day example. We gotta fix this.

[Minstrel Boy]

11. How about this instead:

Bush broke it, so you have to pay for it. That is, $$$ to repair the infrastructure and compensate the Iraqis, but without the kickback of occupation, privitization and oil. UN forces without any US presence or oversight. Otherwise, Iraq remains war booty. Get the hell out before there's nothing left to break.

[Demonaut]

17. I agree, we need to fix it after we turn control over to the UN

[sampsonblk]

22. Yep

Can't argue that one.

Side point: I have a friend who fumed over the idea of turning US troops over the the control of foreigners...until I mentioned that Wes Clark commanded troops from other countries. It happens all the time. You shoulda seen the distraught freeper look I got in response. "Uhhhh...." I guess Hannity didn't tell them how to respond to that one yet.

[debsianben]

35. Huh?

Did you really say that "the Arabs will hate us more" if we pull the troops out rather than continuing the brutal war of occupation?

Does that mean that you think that Arabs like having their children killed in random bombing of "suspected guerilla positions"?

Or that they like being shot to death for failing to slow down fast enough when they approach roadside checkpoints set up by their conquerors?

Or that they like being humiliated in front of their families in random, house-to-house searches for weapons and guerilla fighters?

Or that they like being ordered around on the streets of their capital by trigger-happy 18-year-old foreigners who don't speak the language or understand the culture?

Or that they like having to worry about whether traditional gunfire in a wedding celebration will be mistaken for a guerilla attack and the wedding party will be massacred?

Or that they like having their newspapers be shut down by military order for daring to report facts that Bremer doesn't like?

Or that they like having elections canceled?

Guess what man: in the real world, American troops staying in Iraq means more deaths on both sides, more humiliating "collective punishment" of the populace for geurrilla attacks, more resentment of the US by Iraqis, more recruitment opportunities for Al Queda. We need to leave NOW. When you realize your driving in the wrong direction, you don't speed up.

We do owe it to the Iraqis to clean it up, but this should happen through reparations, not Haliburton-type "reconstruction." True, its possible that whatever results from the U.S. leaving will fail to be a free and democratic society. The problem is that it is CERTAIN that if the U.S. stays Iraq will not be a free and democratic society. The last thing that Bush, Bremer and Co. want is for the residents of the gas station to take it over.

[sampsonblk]

39. I really said it

'Did you really say that "the Arabs will hate us more" if we pull the troops out rather than continuing the brutal war of occupation?'

Yes. If we pull out now, and leave the place a mess, the arabs will hate us even more than they do now. What will we have to show for this disaster? Brutal invasion. Brutal occupation. Kids without food and services. Rubble. All kinds of strife.

We have to stay long enough to fix the problems we have created, or else the enemies of the USA are going to claim "proof positive" that we just wanna kill arabs and blow up their homes. They are going to have pictures to show it. Its a problem, I agree.

[proud patriot]

6. I'm completely Torn

and can't answer the poll.

I value and agree with both sides of this issue .

It's heart-wrentching and I don't have an answer .

[Mattforclark]

9. Peace with honor

Ah, that'll get 'em riled up :)

Because full scale civil war would be much worse than what we have now. That certainly doesn't mean that Bush/Bremer are running things well, though.

[bloom]

12. I think the only honorable thing is for us to leave...

to relinquish all of our interests in it and to assist the Iraq people in getting whatever support THEY think they require.

[David__77]

13. There is no honor in this occupation.

That's what I have to say!

[Demonaut]

20. true, but we still need to fix the problem we ceated

[Aidoneus]

30. how can that be done? more are created daily

Are these problems fixed by running over little girls, bombing hospitals, digging up cemetaries, shooting up civilian cars and houses, etc..? That's what's been done in the last week alone.

I don't see how the occupation forces could attempt to give a damn about "fixing the problem we created" when they do not even acknowledge the slightest fault in themselves.

There is talk of "rebuilding", but no mention of the reason such is needed--the terror bombings carried out in the criminal invasion and occupation and the genocidal sanctions previously.

[Demonaut]

34. A humanitarian approach by the UN, turn over command to the UN

the only way to have peace is to mediate the issues with non member Arab countries and the UN

[Aidoneus]

40. and why would those running this show elect to do so?

it takes a fair heap of naivety to think that their hands can be anything but forced on this matter.

I wouldn't put much stock in a maintained occupation by that institution anyway.

[Kholst]

15. gotta stay :(

Pulling out too soon leaves Iraq worse than when we got there. Better to have not gone at all, but that option's long gone.

[newyawker99]

36. Hi Kholst!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Az]

16. We cannot create a vacuum. We need the UN in there

We created a horrible situation. We are not going to be able to fix it ourself. The US trying to force their solution on the situation will not work. We need the world to deal with this problem.

[booley]

19. if they really want peace with honour

..then Shrub can get rid of the sham elections that will only keep US friendly officials in power, stop shilling for the saudis to hold the Iraqis accountable for Saddam's debt, Give back al the resources they have been busily sellin goff to Shrub friendly companies, clean up the DU they left behind and then get all the American and British Troops out of Iraq.

Peace is actually quite simple. The only problem for Shrub and his friends is he doesn't get his loot.

[Redleg]

24. Don't we now have an obligation to fix the problem we caused there?

As much as I hate seeing our soldiers subjected to the hardships and risk of death or serious injury, don't we have a moral responsibility to the Iraqi people to see this through? By this I mean we fix what we broke and we get the hell out and forget about our own interests for being there in the first place (e.g, our oil interests, revenge, Middle East domination).

On edit: I see a large role for UN Peacekeeping forces in Iraq and a lesser role for U.S. troops over time. Also, I hate it that Bush, Inc. has created this very difficult dilemma for us. F@ck those sorry bastards!

[Minstrel Boy]

25. That obligation begins with leaving.

So long as Iraq is occupied by American troops serving American interests, Iraq is war booty. Leave, send $$$, let the UN act as impartial brokers.

Civil war is being exacerbated by American presence. Leave. You might be surprised Iraqis are capable of governing themselves.

[Mattforclark]

32. In my view

"Civil war is being exacerbated by American presence. Leave. You might be surprised Iraqis are capable of governing themselves."

We should have, a long time ago, held some basic elections with a basically legitimate and representative government, and then taken quite public ORDERS from that Iraqi government. If they wanted us to stay entirely, then we sould have. If they wanted us to abandon the Sunni triangle and stay in the rest of the country, then we should have. If they want us to leave entirely, then we should have.

And as soon as there is a non-puppet government, we should do that still.

[Redleg]

38. Civil war may happen even without our presence there.

You know as well as I do that neither Bush or Kerry will advocate just packing up and leaving. And I believe most of the US voters don't want to see us bail out of there, either.

[Aidoneus]

29. if I stab some guy and take his wallet, am I expected to play doctor?

or is there a punishment for such a crime?

[Zinfandel]

31. Just like we said were going to "fix " it in Vietnam???

We came, we killed, we took and then we fixed it and we left (or kicked out)...We don't "fix" anything without a profit incentive, is that what good old Halliburton (Brown & Root) and Bechtel is doing...fixing things?

[Redleg]

37. If you read the rest of my post you will see I made a statement

about needing to forget our other interests for being there.

[EV1Ltimm]

27. Gotta have peace with honor... here's my reasoning...

Thanks to * not listening to "focus groups" (aka a couple million or so protestors, including yours truly) we fucked up iraq royally. We have got to fix it. Pulling out immediately without resolving any of our fuck-ups would be irresponsible and even further anti-american sentiment in iraq if not the entire middle east. granted, that sentiment is probably maxed at this point, but it would go way beyond that afterwards.

I'm just concerned about iraq becoming another afghanistan... we promised great things for them but left them high and dry. afterwards, it became a hotbed of lunatic fundamentalism and equally as loony terrorism.

regarding this whole "war", we have to do things diplomatically, not drastically. i want the soldiers right now as much as anyone, but we gotta think about what the long term effects will be if we left another country high and dry..

[Zinfandel]

28. Yeah, like we're going to abandon the huge military bases we've installed

or the oil companies are just going to leave on their own...and what Bechtel and Halliburton is doing is good for the little Iraqi people...they are so backwards... technologies are good for them. And while were at it...let's make sure they have lots of Christian churches too because Allah always seems to cause problems.

[EV1Ltimm]

33. good idea!

lets give them community colleges so they can take classes about sarcasm too!

:eyes:

[Vladimir]

41. The only way to have peace with honour

is to bring them home now, pay war reparations and be ready to provide civilian aid for the forseeable future if asked to.

Of course this will in fact never happen, but I for one would settle for the troops leaving.

V

[LWolf]

42. Bring them home.

I had a special visitor to my classroom the last couple of days; a former student just home from Iraq; was there a year. I didn't know he was there.

I taught him, his brother, and his two sisters. I also ran the three-legged race with him and a gunnysack at a school picnic. I am so grateful that he came back in one piece, and I want the same for them all.