All the outrage about what happened in Fallujah: perspective

[keithyboy]

It was horrible, that's true. But for Americans to become so outraged and to want to just level the place as a 'final solution' is nothing short of barbaric and in-human.

Anyone ever see the pictures of black men and women hanging from trees in Mississippi,Alabama, Oklahoma, Texas and the Carolinas with men and women and children looking a lot like you and me standing in a crowd that was laughing and cheering? That was less than fify years ago. Visit the African American museum or look 'lynchings' up on the Internet. My god, people, the only thing that separates these poor misled fools in Fullajah from us is a few years, lots of money, and a huge military. THINK PEOPLE. You are willing to sell your souls because you can't admit that we were wrong, led by the wrong people, to do the wrong thing? Have you no moral compass?

[ArkDem]

1. You are absolutely right. As usual, the whole thing

is our fault! If we hadn't invaded Iraq illegally these things would not be happening.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

18. Um-yeah

I know you're being facetious as usual, but you managed to hit the nail on the head at the same time.

[BJ]

2. And the "four contractors" weren't hardhats.

Let's get this little "liberal" media euphemism cleared up right now!

The "four contractors" killed in the streets of Fallujah worked for Blackwater Security a private military organization!

In other words, ladies and gentlemen, they are not "contractors." They are MERCENARIES.

[nodictators]

5. If they had been hardhats...

...the media wouldn't have given a damn about them.

[TahitiNut]

3. Iraq and Afghanistan are 'schools' for mercenaries

Let's make no mistake about this. Such war zones are used to 'blood' the military and provide a training ground for those who dedicate their lives to feeding on human conflict and the insanity of war. Career militarists flock to such zones.

It's a repeated lesson that people who 'succeed' under certain conditions tend to perpetuate/create those very same conditions when they attain positions of authority. The longer we're in Iraq and Afghanistan, the more people we'll have trained and elevated who personally thrive under such conditions. One only need look at the backgrounds of Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, Rice, and others in this madminstration to understand this. They are all opportunists who've thrived on geopolitical strife and conflict.

[BJ]

7. And they're all on the government dole!

It's not even ironic anymore that these "free market capitalists" you named in your post are all receiving paychecks from the United States Treasury!

And we, the American taxpayers, are footing the bill for these Blackwater "contractors" to be Jerry Bremer's Praetorian Guards.

[TahitiNut]

8. That's the Republican way.

Republicans love to 'spend' taxpayer money as long as the recipients are capitalist profiteers. Every 'problem' is regarded as a goose that lays golden eggs. Never kill the goose.

[BJ]

10. As long as they don't pay the tax.

And as long as that "goose" is the Defense Department.

[TahitiNut]

11. Not just DoD ... every part of the federal government.

The 'Republican' attitude is that they must get back more than they pay, independent of need and proportional to wealth. Republican states get back more in federal tax dollars than they pay in federal taxes. The Department of Energy is one of the biggest scams. There are very few federal employees in the DoE -- it's about 90% contractors. Radioactive waste at Hanford and other sites has cost the taxpayers over $20 billion in the last 15 years. Almost no waste has been cleaned up yet. Farmers and homeowners in the inland Pacific Northwest use water for irrigation that's provided by an irrigation system almost completely paid for by federal tax dollars and constructed by the Army Corps of Engineers. HUD, DoE, and other areas of government have been infested by profiteers. The latest prescription drug scam in Medicare is nothing but a profit-maker for big pharma.

While the socialist attitude might incorporate "from each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs" ... the corporatist attitude is "from each according to his needs and to each according to his ownership."

[keithyboy]

13. Your profile of Rummy, Perle and Wolfowitz fits most Republicans

They can only thrive when others are suffering.

[maggrwaggr]

4. the irony is Saddam Hussein knew how to rule Iraq: with an iron fist

it may be the only thing that works in Iraq.

DOH!

[outinforce]

9. So. Are You Saying.....???

I think I hear you saying that the people of Iraq are somehow incapable of self-governance.

Would that be because they are:

(a) Asian
(b) Muslim
(c) Arab-speaking
(d) All of the Above
(e) None of the Above

I find it highly unusual that on a website for liberals, someone could actually suggest that denying an entire nation certain basic freedom is something that "works".

[hang a left]

17. Yes. That was an odd comment.

n/t

[Jacobin]

78. How so?

Speaking in strictly practical terms (not the "moral" terms used by Smirk's henchmen)

[hang a left]

113. Well I was actually replying to the poster that thinks Iraq

needs to be ruled with an iron fist. What say you.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

22. That was Lawrence of Arabias take on it....

Back after WWI he said the Turks had to execute 200 or 500 or some hundred people a year just to keep those provinces pacified, & asked if the British where prepared to do the same.

[Jacobin]

77. I don't think you can say that out loud in Amerika right now

I've predicted since the beginning of the war that we would be missing Saddam in a couple of years.

He was a secular saddist who kept the country under control and did not truck with Islamic extremists (which is why we put him in power in the first place).

I'm wondering how the body counts will compare between Bremer, shlock 'n awe and Saddam's repression.

The real world is not a pretty place to be. When the naive morons like wolfowitz, rumfilled, et al get to play war with Smirk's army, and go pretend to try to do "good things", shit hits the fan and we suffer from their stupidity, although, it appears, the Iraqis will suffer more.

[mmonk]

6. Actually

the African Americans hanging from trees and such in photos were from all accross America. To regionalize what was happening back then is a way of dismissing it to a limited number of Americans. Also, what the government did to Native Americans should be mentioned as well. So he have a cruel history of our own.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with pointing out the barbaric acts in Fallujuh. In persective, the US is the conquerer and occupier (no matter the intention) and such brutal backlash is not uncommon.

[keithyboy]

12. Touche...I am merely saying that we can't be so indignant and act like

these people are in a class by themselves and their behavior is no excuse for trying to level the city because of what happened. I hear people on the radio talk shows calling for treating Arabs less than human beings and using the Fallujah incident as proof. And for the record, you can include what happened to Native Americans at the hands of our forfathers. Where will this vicious cycle end?

[Beetwasher]

14. Well, Not Only That. It Was Only A Few Years Ago

That a black man was chained to the back of a truck and dragged for miles. I think it was in TX.

We also paraded around Husseins sons mutilated bodies.

There's not much separating us from the Iraqi's except an ocean.

[outinforce]

15. I Think I am Correct

when I say that the racists who killed and dragged the body of a Black man in Texas were tried and convicted of a terrible crime. They may, for all I know, have been sentenced to death themselves.

I do not recall large-scale dancing in the streets when these men killed and dragged the Black man around.

It is, frankly, an insult to many Americans (including this one) to compare the case in Texas with what happened in Faluja.

[Beetwasher]

16. Too Bad

You're insulted. That's your problem. To think we're oh so much more civilized than the Iraqi's because of this is the height of ethnocentric arrogance.

It's comparable in that OUR citizens are just as capable of mutilating and desecrating people as the Iraqi's are and OUR citizens can be just as barbaric. But you go ahead and believe the propoganda that this terrible act of violence on their part makes them somehow different, somehow barbaric and less human than we are. Unfortunately this sort of behavior is actually ALL TOO HUMAN.

If the US were invaded many Americans would be cheering this sort of behavior if it happened to their occupiers, so get off your high horse.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. Bingo.

[supernova]

25. Great point!

you are so correct, I can't think of a thing to add Beetwasher. :toast:

[outinforce]

38. OUCH!

I did not realize that I would be the obhject of such vituperation merely for suggesting that the incident in Faluja and the incident in Texas were not quite the same thing.

Both were, to be sure, acts of monstrous barbarity, motivated by little more than pure hatred.

But, as I said earlier, I seem to recall that the actions of the bigots in Texas were met without almost universal condemnation by most folks here in the terrible old USA.

And, if news reports are correct, the actions of the people in Faluja were met by people dancing in the streets.

Now, please excuse me.

I have a high horse to dismount.

[Beetwasher]

45. The Condemnation Is an Irrelevant Distinction

The man who was strung up in TX was also completely innocent of doing anything and was picked at random for the "crime" of being black.

Unfortunately US soldiers that are part of an invading and occupying force in Iraq are not randomly picked for violence because some imagined crime. The crimes of the US against Iraq are quite real and unfortunately for the soldiers, they are bearing the brunt of the backlash for those crimes.

Again, if the US were invaded this type of behavior against the occupiers would NOT be universally condemened. I can almost guarantee it.

[hang a left]

19. Don't ever forget that WE illegally invaded their country and we

illegally occupy their country without any intent of ever leaving. To supposedly remove Sadam. IMO the people were better off with Sadam. War is a bloody business.

edit to make some sense

[outinforce]

41. "War is A Bloody Business"

Do I take it, then, that you count yourself to be among those who would exucse atrocities on the part of American soldiers on the basis of war being a bloody business?

[hang a left]

114. I excuse noone. Including the leaders of our country.

These men weren't not soldiers. As I just read in an article 2 were veterans and one was a retired navy seal. Now, what the hell do you think that they were doing there? Betcha a buck they weren't looking at real estate.

I'll be back.


National News from The Associated Press

Army Veterans, Former Navy SEAL Among Four Civilian Contractors Killed, Mutilated in Iraq
By CONNIE MABIN, Associated Press Writer

WILLOUGHBY, Ohio -- Two Army veterans and a former Navy SEAL were among four American contractors killed in Iraq, their bodies mutilated and dragged through the streets.

Family members and a spokeswoman said Thursday that Jerko 'Jerry' Zovko, 32, Michael Teague, 38, and Scott Helvenston, 38, died with another civilian Wednesday after they were hit by rocket-propelled grenades in a rebel ambush. The victims worked for Blackwater Security Consulting, one of five subsidiaries of Blackwater USA based in North Carolina.

Zovko's mother said she and her husband had suspected their son might be among the dead, but their fears were confirmed Thursday morning when the president of Blackwater USA knocked on their door.

http://sandiego.cox.net/cci/portal/_pagr/127/_pa.127/669?view=article&id=D81MFBR80

on edit for story and link

[dpibel]

75. But there was dancing in the streets on another occasion

Reach back into your memory and see if you can recall the man-on-the-street reaction footage to the opening salvos of GulfWarDaddy. There were shots of crowds of proud Americans cheering as those spiffy precision-guided munitions went right in the front door of the evil-doers' buildings (true--they weren't evildoers back then; they were the second coming of Hitler and his minions).

For a slightly more civilized version of the same thing, check out the chest-thumping hoorahs which issued forth from our free press at the announcement of the grand war-fighting strategy of "ShockenAhhhhh."

For that matter, if you had a press so inclined, I suspect you'd have had little trouble finding some yahoos who would have expressed no small measure of glee over that little unpleasantness down Texas way.

Celebrations of bloodshed and gore are hardly limited to the lesser peoples.

[Arpege31]

21. We didn't parade Husseins sons mutilated bodies

They were shown simply to prove to the Iraqi's that these two monsters will never bother them again.

[Beetwasher]

23. Yeah, Right

Keep believing that. US does it, it's ok because, well, we define it differently and we've go a GOOD reason to do it but when the Iraqi's do it, it's barbaric. What utter crap.

[Arpege31]

26. Did we set fire to the bodies of Husseins sons

Did we beat them with shovels, drag them through the streets, hang them up while Iraqi's danced a jig of glee, and did we cut them into pieces only to be fed to the dogs?

No we did not!!!

[Beetwasher]

29. So What?

We bombed them into oblivion and I'm sure they got burned too, that's bigger and worse than a shovel and then paraded their images all over the world via TV and internet and it was sanctioned by OUR GOV'T. The US didn't need to use shovels on SH's sons, they had giant bombs instead. Why is it different? Pathetic...

War sucks and when all you got is a shovel you use it...

[Arpege31]

37. War does suck

I don't dispute that fact at all. The difference between what happend to Saddams sons and what just happened in Fallujah, is that these Americans never even got the chance to surrender or even fight back. Saddams sons did....they didn't surrender, and they fought back and were eventually killed.

If you believe that these two monsters were not as bad as the media was claiming them to be, then how do you account for the celebration of Iraqi's right after they found out that these two evil SOB's were dead?

[supernova]

39. You're missing the point

Not saying Sadaam's sons were boy scouts.

The point is, we aren't either. We are the new Roman Empire. Prepare for the seige of Masada.

[Arpege31]

59. We will never be the new Roman Empire

As long as folks like you and I pay attention to what is going on. I don't know about you, but I can get pretty nasty sometimes when I think our government is doing it wrong. We march in Washington, we are all over the television and I don't see our voices being shut down in the near future. We are what Iran wants to be.

[supernova]

69. Not as long as the bushlet* will be unemployed

in November.

Otherwise, you can be we will have martial law in the name of "fightin' the War on Terra™"

[Beetwasher]

42. You Make NO Sense Whatsoever

What does a chance to surrender have anything to do w/ anything?

Where did I ever claim that SH's sons weren't bad guys??? WTF are you talking about? Stop w/ the strawmen, you're embarrassing yourself.

As far as the Iraqi's are concerned, US soldiers, illegally occupying their country and killing their families and neighbors and stealing their natural resources are just as big monsters as SH's sons. You're making ridiculous convoluted distinctions that are beside the point.

If the US was invaded many Americans would cheer this exact type of behavior if it was done against thier occupiers.

[keithyboy]

116. Beetwasher, you need a radio talk show of your own.

You handle the strawman tactic much better than anyone I've heard on AA.
Or anyother talk show for that matter (radio or TV).
Nice to have you on the side of balance and reality and truth.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. I've heard stories from Vietnam vets as well as vets of Desert Storm I...

...of all kinds of horrific things done to the bodies of dead soldiers. Those things never manage to make their way into a camera.

I think we can skip the "holier-than-thou" argument and just move on.

[supernova]

24. We only blasted the the Hussein boys' bodies

over the planet's airwaves on every media outlet in existance. How is this NOT like draging them through the main square? :eyes:

[Arpege31]

28. How is this NOT like draging them through the main square?

The families of these victims have no bodies to bury. Saddam's sons at least got a burial.

[supernova]

32. Oh Pleae, do try to convince me

that if the situations were reversed and the Iraqi army was invading and occupying the US that some of us WOULD NOT just as gleefully kill and descrate Iraqi soldiers' bodies.

[Arpege31]

40. I can't speak for everybody

but I do know how many times I had seen Americans coming to the rescue of Muslim Americans who were being taunted and even threatened. It must be difficult for you to believe that not all Americans are evil....try working on it though.

[supernova]

43. Don't misrepresent my POV

I didn't say all americans are evil. Rather, I have lived long enough to know that humans will act with barbarity at times, and we americans, as human beings first, are no different.

Do try to work on that. ;-)

[Arpege31]

49. And when human beings act with barbarity at times

shouldn't we as human beings try to stop it. Or at least, not find an excuse for such barbarity?

[supernova]

51. Or, at the very least not try to insist

that we ourselves are so above it all. It's the height of dishonesty.

Not that much separates us from the Iraqis. If you think otherwise, you haven't lived or travelled nearly enough.

[Arpege31]

89. I don't need to travel to see hatred

I've lived in Germany twice and I've traveled this great country on numerous times, but I don't need that experience to tell me what hatred looks like. I saw hatred on the faces of those Iraqi's who murdered four innocent human beings. These folks weren't even military, they were civilians and they were mowed down like dogs. They were treated worse than dogs, and I hope that they died quickly simply because I couldn't bare to know that they lived long enough to experience the physical pain of their deaths.

I don't hate the Iraqi's. I just want them to have what we have. A democracy.

[supernova]

93. They were mercenaries

They were guns for hire, not civilians, not NGO workers. And they knew what they were getting into. I feel bad for their families, but they knew the score going in.

And what about what the Iraqis themselves want? Are you open to hearing what they have to say on the subject? What if they want something different than what we call "democracy?" Are you going to peaceably accept that?

edit: Re: travelling. You don't travel to see the flaws and foibles in others. You come to see them in yourself. It's one of the ways of removing "the mote from one's own eye." Try it sometime.

[Beetwasher]

33. And How Many Iraqi's

Were blown to atoms during shock and awe and therefore THEIR families have no bodies to bury? Your making some very spurious distinctions that make no sense. Barbarity is barbarity whether it comes from a shovel or a bomb dropped from 10,000 feet.

[supernova]

36. That little kid

who had his arms blown off comes to mind.

[Arpege31]

47. That Shredder

Who had been shredded alive simply for laughs....innocent Iraqi's come to mind.

Who had been raped repeatedly.....innocent Iraqi's come to mind.

Who had been shot and killed, only to have the family members pay for the bullets.....innocent Iraqi's come to mind.

[supernova]

53. What the hell?

I don't understand you here. :shrug:

[Arpege31]

44. Oh I see

So it's okay to continue beating up on a dead body? Is that what you are saying?

Nobody likes war, and that includes me. I'm sorry if I can't find a way to justify the actions of those who were involved in beating up on dead bodies. I suppose they learned these ways from that former supreme leader....Saddam Insane!

[Beetwasher]

48. Another Irrelevant Distinction

You're good at that.

Again, if the US were invaded, I'd be willing to bet you'd be cheering this sort of behavior against the occupiers and would probably love to get few whacks in w/ a shovel yourself, so get off your high-horse Chester, you're no different than the Iraqi's. I'm sure you'll say "Nope, not me" and I say whatever. There would be LOT'S of Americans who WOULD cheer and take part in that type of behavior. Unfortunately, it's all too human.

[Arpege31]

52. Well well well

Who died and made you the supreme judge of others? You don't know a thing about me and when you make false accusations about a person, it only proves how very closed minded you are.

I've been through hell and back my friend, and most people wouldn't have been able to continue on in life if they had suffered like I have. Even with all of that, I am a good person who only wants to help others. I don't hurt people, and I don't find enjoyment in hurting other people.

If anyone is on a high-horse...it's you. Step down from your pedestal and quit judging people you don't even know.

[Beetwasher]

54. What's That?

Changing the subject are we?

"There would be LOT'S of Americans who WOULD cheer and take part in that type of behavior. Unfortunately, it's all too human."

Care to address that instead giving me your sob story?

[Arpege31]

56. It's not for me to prove

You have already charged and convicted Americans for something that they haven't even done. I haven't seen any Americans take to the streets cheering the deaths of Iraqi's. If you have....then prove it.

You are a difficult individual to figure out....you have sympathy for the Iraqi's who killed these four Americans, but you have no sympathy for me and my sob story. It's okay though...I look for no sympathy from anyone. I do pity you though.

[Beetwasher]

60. Oh, Really?

Charged and convicted? How hyperbolic of you. How about just understanding and observing human nature.

You weren't paying attention during the beginning of the war? All the people cheering the deaths of thousands of Iraqi's? Breathlessly watching shock and awe on TV from a safe distance. All the pro-war rallies, I guess those never happened. You need to get out more. I'm sure you've been to freerepublic where Americans daily revel in the deaths of Iraqi's and call for the final solution of bombing the entire country to oblivion. Yeah, there's compassion for you. Americans absolutely REVEL in violence. We LOVE a good ass-kicking or haven't you noticed? Puhleeze, get real. Prove it? Only a deluded idiot would believe otherwise, or a disingenous liar.

I have no sympathy for the murderous thugs who mutilated our soldiers and quite frankly, you're full of shit for claiming I do. Prove it by showing where I show them sympathy. I'm merely pointing out that WE'RE NO DIFFERENT. If you think we are, you're deluded. I have no sympathy for your either, because quite frankly, you seem to revel in your ignorance and therefore I'll assume you get everything you deserve.

Yes, pity me, that's a laugh! You give me your sob story obviously looking for pity and then you pity me! That's a good one!

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Beetwasher]

68. You Continue to Make No Sense (and you're busted)

"You are an angry individual who's head is completely up his/her ass."

and then:

"If you want to debate like an adult, then do so, otherwise take your ugly and angry rhetoric and peddle it somewhere else. I know....go over to the AlJazeer website. They'd love you."


Hahahahahahaha! Too funny. Got a point? I didn't think so.

You are so clueless, it's funny! So the pro-war freeper rally's were A-OK in your book, but the anti-war protesters were the bad guys calling for the deaths of American soldiers? Oh, that's rich!!! BUSTED!!

[Arpege31]

86. You really must get out more

I was simply pointing out your hypocracy. Look that word up and then memorize its meaning. The only thing busted around here is your argument and how pityfull it was too.

[Beetwasher]

92. Still waiting for a point

You pointed out nothing except your own ignorance and your own hypocrisy (I should look it up? You can't even spell it! LOL!). You defended the ignorant morons cheering for an illegal war and the death of Americans and Iraqi's that that war meant and you smeared and slandered the anti-war protestors who were trying to stop that war and the death and destruction it has brought. I was at the protests in NY and if people were doing what you were saying, I didn't see it, so, since all I have is your ignorant word, I think you're full of shit.

[U4ikLefty]

115. Nice work Beetwasher!!!

n/t

[0007]

27. So you think its a one way street, 'eh?

Maybe you'd feel the same if someone blew up your house and killed your family and then strutted around your country telling you how to believe?

The freepers want to level Fallujah, hows that for a comparison?

Iraq got crazies and there are plenty of crazies here.

[Arpege31]

30. What the freepers want and what they can do are two different things

A friend of mine served in Fallujah and from what he has told me....it's like the wild west out there.

[Skittles]

35. perhaps you should go see for yourself?

nt

[Skittles]

34. LOL

BY KILLING MONSTERS WE BECOME MONSTERS

[Arpege31]

55. No we are not monsters

I can't believe how many people have forgotten how we left the Iraqi's to defend themselves against Saddam after the first Gulf War. They were encouraged to unite and fight Saddam, and all they got in return was death and destruction. We allowed those people to die. I'd say we owe them and if that means getting rid of Saddam, then so be it. We are only monsters if we continued to allow them to suffer under such an evil regime.

Many countries made huge money off of Saddam and the UN is investigating this now. Things are going to come to light and I suspect those who were against this war from the beginning, are going to find themselves in a position to explain themselves. That includes Americans as well.

[Skittles]

61. just remember who created Saddam

Bush I and Reagan. And remember that Saddam had nothing to do with the events of 9/11. This entire mess is the fault of asshole conservatives who are now thinking that wreaking revenge for those killings is a swell idea. Perhaps you should join in on this fight.

[Arpege31]

71. I'm not convinced that Saddam didn't have anything to do with 9/11

I'm aware of the support Saddam recieved from Bush and Reagan during the Iran and Iraq war. I make no excuses for that what so ever....and because of that mistake, isn't it up to us to try and right that wrong? We at least owe these people a chance to live in a free society where they are not afraid to speak their minds. Where the women can walk the streets without fear of being raped and murdered.

Some of it is guilt on my part and maybe that's wrong, but I don't see any other way to help these folks. There is alot of good going on over there right now and that good is getting lost in the bad that we are seeing and hearing. Soldiers are actually re-enlisting in the military so that they can stay in Iraq to continue helping these people. I am fully supporting our troops and I fully support Iraq as a democratic society.

[Skittles]

74. GEE

I'm totally SHOCKED that you buy into the 9/11 - Iraq garbage. And by the way, WOMEN IN MANY PARTS OF AMERICA don't feel free to "walk the streets" without fear of being raped and murdered. IT IS ALWAYS ON OUR MINDS.

[Arpege31]

81. It's not on mine

I'm a woman and I live about an hour north of New York City. I take walks all of the time and I don't worry about being raped. But if you do, then I really feel bad for you.

[Exultant Democracy]

76. So lets just be clear here

Since you think that Saddam was involved with 9/11 that would mean you think Bush did the right thing.

How did you feel about the tax cuts, the recent Medicare bill, no child left behind, and the clean air act?

[Arpege31]

94. I thought we were talking about the war in Iraq

Your hoping to use my answers to your questions against me aren't you?

Fine with me.

I believe Saddam was involved with 9/11. Data has recently shown up that proves that Al Quaeda had training camps in Iraq. Osama and Saddam didn't like one another, but they did have one thing in common....their hatred for us.

The tax cuts are a mistake....although I was able to use that extra money for my sons tuition.

I'm not up to speed on the clean air act or medicare, but I do support the rights of parents to choose the schools their children attend. As do my neighbors and I live in a very racially mixed neighborhood.

I do support a womans right to choose....and being a Catholic, that plays heavy on my mind. Watch out now....a Christian is on DU.

Any other questions? I'm crossing my fingers that you don't attack me, but I won't hold my breath.

[Exultant Democracy]

97. There is no need to fear being a Christian on DU,

Most members of DU are Christians, the only thing we do have a problem with is the fundies/American Taliban.

[Arpege31]

101. American Taliban?

Ouch...you don't think that's a little harsh? I think this is not the website for me. Nothing against any of you. I think we differ too much in our way of thinking and I'm not here to fight or accuse anyone. I appreciate your understanding though.

[Exultant Democracy]

104. It is a very accurate term for people who don't

believe in the separation of church and state. They do live here in American and try to push a religious agenda into our government, what would you call them?

[Jacobin]

80. So, Rush has his own spies now?

Do tell.

Lemme guess. Saddam did 9/11 with the help of Murkin Librul Traitors.

Thanks for the intel.

[Exultant Democracy]

70. If it was justice that we cared about we would have never

gone in the way we did. The invasion of Iraq by America made it very likely that a bad situation is only going to turn out to be worse for the people of Iraq.

If we had cared then we would have waited for U.N. approval, and then after that made a real plan on the best way to remove Saddam. This plan would have included how it was going to be payed for, and the awarding of contracts to the most competitive bids.

The fact is that what could have been a good thing is now tainted, the only hope is to put the welfare of Iraq into the hands of the U.N. and to remove halburton and the rest of the American blood sucking apparatus.

[Arpege31]

96. We did have UN approval

Bush did go to the UN and everyone agreed that if Saddam didn't turn over his WMD's, force would be used. So many people forget about that fact. At the last minute, France pulled out. How come noone wonders why France did what they did? I suspect we will find out once the UN investigates the illegal activity going on between Saddam and UN members.

I do know one thing though....I will never forget the looks on the faces of the Iraqi's when Saddam's statue came falling down. Call me a softy, but I did cry because I was so happy for these folks.

[Exultant Democracy]

100. No we did not have UN approval

that is a myth of most outrageous proportions.

If we had UN approval then why did Bush say "The United Nations is irrelevant." (doesn't sound like someone getting their way from the UN to me.)

What the UN did agree to was that we have to give the weapons inspectors time to insure Iraqi compliance, our invasion prevented the inspectors from doing their jobs.

You know who else might have wanted to see the statue of Saddam fall? The 13,000 plus Iraqi civilians that have been killed by U.S. forces. We pushed the invasion of Iraq through in a completely irresponsible manner, and the Iraqi people will pay for this for years. (not to mention the U.S. soldiers that we are sacrificing for our oil addiction.)

[Arpege31]

103. The United Nations was irrelevant

Bush made that statement because the UN didn't want to follow through with the agreement. How are we supposed to deal with monsters like Saddam when he didn't even take our threat of force seriously. He honestly thought France would somehow stop this and although they tried. It didn't work.

The UN is a bad organization with alot of greedy politicians. Some major house cleaning needs to be done.

[supernova]

105. The UN is a necessary institution

And here we have it. :7

I'd rather have the UN anyday than our little Napoleon wannabe bushlet.

And the fact that the PNACers want to destroy the UN is precisely why they must be kick out of office in November.

[Arpege31]

107. You want the UN to have more power over Americans?

Not me. I don't want the UN telling me or keeping me from defending this country should it come under attack again.....and most likely, it will.

They are crooked bunch of greedy people, and our best interests is not their concern.

[supernova]

109. You've been listening to Jesse Helms too long

The UN does no such thing. Ever.

But we do agree to work within its framwork for the general welfare of the planet. Bush willfully ignored the rest of the world for the sake of his own overblown ego.

I will not have it. Bush goes down in November. :thumbsdown: He needs to be permantently unemployed and his bank accounts completely emptied out. Let him sit in a food line for once.

And Oh dear God, how I hate his overbloviated sense of "I'm such a wonderful Christian."

[Insider]

46. simple solution: come the hell home

any civilian contractors can do it today. and our officials can bring our troops home beginning today. instead, we now have some sort of moral justification to stay and apprehend and charge and try and incarcerate and rebuild and resurrect and on and on and on.

when is it over? what is junior & dick's exit strategy?

[Arpege31]

57. I believe we do have a moral justification

It bothers me how we left these people to defend themselves from Saddam after the first Gulf War. Imagine if we had stayed only a little longer or even given a little more support....perhaps the dead Iraqi's being dug up around Iraq would be alive today. Perhaps you and I wouldn't even be discussing this topic at all.

[Insider]

66. perhaps if we had stayed home last year

we wouldn't NEED to spend 87 billion?? to halliburton and blackwater and others to protect and rebuild and retrain and rearm and on and on THIS year.

perhaps we should leave the other sovereign nation alone. perhaps we should pick on one our own size that we KNOW has WMD. in fact, there are many brutal dictators in the world. who's next? are we arbitrarily chosing countries to save? are we unilaterally saving the world from their OWN elections, one country at a time?

perhaps if junior hadn't lied, we wouldn't be there.

but really, we each have a different opinion. the whole thing just stinks, and it didn't have to happen.

[Arpege31]

79. I don't look at it as picking on a nation

I look at it as a chance to help people who couldn't help themselves and to defend people who couldn't defend themselves. We are a big country who brag openly about our democracy. We are free to say what we want and do as we please. We believe...well, I believe that the US is the greatest country in the world. I'm proud to be an American and yet I see so many folks who are not. They look down upon me and believe that I too should hate the US. For some strange reason, we are not allowed to be proud of where we come from. We are constantly putting ourselves down, pointing out all of our past bad deeds and yet we forget all of the good we have done.

When is the last time you sat back and remembered any of our good deeds. Please don't say that we don't have any because we do. We as a people have somehow lost that pride and it sickens me to see it continue into such a downward spiral. There's nothing wrong with having pride in one's country....just ask Canada, or France or Germany. There is something wrong when we continue to blame ourselves for all of the ills in this world and there's something wrong when we allow other nations to blame the worlds ills on us. We are constantly bombarded with blame for not helping those who need helping and when we do try to help, we are attacked for sticking our noses into other peoples business.

We are damned if we do and we are damned if we don't. We've got to stop beating ourselves us and we've got to decide how we feel about our country and not worry about how other nations feel about us. This popularity contest has done more harm than good and it's time we stopped playing this silly game.

I know...I am on a soap box right now, but I'm just so tired of seeing such hatred for Americans.

[supernova]

88. Nobody at DU hates the US

In fact, most of us (including quite a large contingent of overseas DUers) are here at DU precisely because we do love the US and want to see it live up to its ideals.

Not engage in unsolicited wars with countries that didn't attack us. And you think Sadaam was somehow involved with 9/11? Where's your proof?

[Arpege31]

99. I recently read an article

about these Al Quaeda camps in Iraq. Alot of information has come from former Iraqi officers who claim that Saddam did allow Al Quaeda to train in Iraq.

Alot of information is going to come out in due time and when it does, will people still hate Bush? Probably.

[supernova]

102. Link?

You got a link for that article?

And anything from Drudge new Newsmax doesn't count.

[Beetwasher]

90. Ignorance is Nothing to Be Proud Of

No one here hates America or Americans. We hate what the assholes in charge now are doing precisely because it so anti-American. Invading a defenseless country to steal their natural resources and repressing their people is NOT the American way that I'm proud of. As Americans we should all hold our heads in shame for allowing it to happen. You're gullible and naive if you believe all the crap about liberating the Iraqi's. They are not free and there will be NO democracy in Iraq as long as Bushco is in charge and if you think otherwise, you are a fool. Motive and intentions matter and Bushco's motives and intentions are highly suspect. They never intended to liberate Iraq and bring Democracy. If that's what they intended, they would not have gone about it the way they did. The facts speak for themselves and you obviously are not listening.

[Arpege31]

106. It's not naive....I'm just glad that we finally did something

It is you who is close minded. Your hatred for this administration drives you to actually believe that we are in Iraq to repress these people. You couldn't be more wrong.

You're right about hanging our heads in shame....we should after what we didn't do after the first Gulf War. We allowed those people to become victims to Saddam's regime.

You should save some of your condmenation for some of the illegal crap that the UN was involved in during Saddam reign of terror.

[Beetwasher]

111. How Pathetically Naive or Disingenuous

What we already did, before the war, worked. No WMD's remember? So sanctions and aggressive inspections worked. If we're there to liberate then where are the elections? Where's the free press? Get back to me when that happens. If that's why we went in, then what was all that crap about an imminent threat and WMD's? You are blinded by ignorance. I guess you believe that bombing the Iraqi's is good for them? Truly pathetic. So, when are we invading every other country ruled by tin pot dictator? That's ok w/ you I guess?

[Jacobin]

82. Oh really?

If we'd only "stayed a little longer"? WTF does that mean.

[Arpege31]

108. You really need me to explain that?

Okay....if we had stayed longer and kicked Saddam's ass out of Iraq for good. Or how about just supporting the very Iraqi's we encouraged to stand up and fight against Saddam and his army. We didn't and why? Because we didn't want to piss off the rest of the Arab world.

Saddam invades Kuwait....murders innocent people, destroys property and releases oil into the sea and you have the nerve to ask me WTF does that mean?

[rumguy]

50. I've been away from the corporate media, are they really calling for

that stuff?

[Jacobin]

83. Yes.

Bremer is spouting off....I think he got Ariel Sharon's speechwriters to do it up for him. They emailed over some canned "gonna getcha back" speeches.

[mhr]

58. Here Is The Solution - A Modest Proposal

To meet the challenges in Iraq, we should begin recruiting drives at all the southern baptist churches.

By sending the Christian Fundies to fight the Iraqis we can solve several problems at one time:

1. we get rid of the Christian Fundies here
2. we give the Muslims a worthy and biblical opponent
3. we get to elect a new Senate and House as Christian politicians resign to fight
4. we get special elections for president as * becomes the new Christian general fighting the heathens
5. we get an improved economy as non-Christians finally get jobs
6. there must be more ....

Think about the benefits. By sending the Fundies to the middle east, the US can return to normal because media giants like Rush will die on the vine as ratings plummet. Terrorism would definitely be contained to the Persian Gulf as waves of Christians constructively avenge their anger. America could once again become a peaceful nation as military budgets are reduced substantially since the Christians would be self financed through tithes. The list of benefits is almost infinite.

Think of it as the new crusades were only Christian Fundies can participate.

This would be a great test for the Fundies version of Christianity. It would also save a lot time for these people because they would not have to read all those left behind books waiting for the rapture. What better way to die than fighting for your faith on the devil's home turf!

Lastly, it would bring new meaning to that old hymnal standard, Onward Christian Soldiers.

[Arpege31]

62. Damn

And I thought the terrorists were evil. Nice to see how you have no tolerance for Christians at all. Did a few of them manage to tick you off at some point in your life.....and yet you are ready to condemn all of them.....is that what you are saying?

[mhr]

63. Only The Fundies And Yes They Have Been A Burr In My Saddle For Years

I can't stand hypocrites.

Fundamental Christians are some of the worst hypocrites in the US.

It also happens that they form a large part of the GOP base.

[Arpege31]

67. Nobody likes hypocrites

But it's not right to condemn all Christians on the actions of only a few Christians.

[mhr]

72. Only The Fundies - Read The Post!

These are the types that support Rush, Hannity, and Sean.

These are the Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell followers.

These are the people supporting the Dominionism movement.

Need one say more.

There must be a few spare couple hundred thousand to go fight in Iraq.

[Arpege31]

91. You don't even see your own hatred

You hate Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and his followers, Rush, Hannity, and Sean....but somehow you have room in your heart for the Iraqi's who murdered four innocent human beings.

You have given the word "Tolerance" a whole new meaning.

[supernova]

95. The point is Pat Robertson et al

would in fact do the same if given half a chance. They deeply terrify me. Moreso than Osama Bin Laden, moreso than Sadaam did with his nonexistent WMDs.

[mhr]

112. Your Comment Makes No Sense - You Are Off The Reservation

with this line of questioning!

Maybe you need to check your meds?

[dpibel]

85. Just depends on whose tar brush, doesn't it?

You're awfully sad if people suggest that, were the situations reversed, Americans would engage in the same behavior. "You've condemned all Americans," you say.

You get all shocked and sad if someone comments about Xtians, "Did some small minority of Christians make you unhappy?" you ask, "Well don't lump them all together. That's not faayyyyer."

Post #26: "Did we beat them with shovels, drag them through the streets, hang them up while Iraqi's danced a jig of glee, and did we cut them into pieces only to be fed to the dogs?" (emphasis added) (Helpful hint: very few words in English--about none--use an apostrophe to make a plural.) You will object that you meant only those Iraqis who were dancing jigs of glee. But you see how you claim for yourself the right to use general terms to mean the specific, while excoriating others for saying "Americans," which, you claim, means a condemnation of every American?

Post #30: "A friend of mine served in Fallujah and from what he has told me....it's like the wild west out there." Meaning exactly what? Oh, they're just a bunch of uncivilized types there in Fallujah. Every single one of them.

Post #67: "But it's not right to condemn all Christians on the actions of only a few Christians." It is, however, just fine to condemn all Iraqis on the actions of only a few Iraqis.

Pot/kettle? Ox gored? Goose sauce, gander sauce?

[Jacobin]

84. We thought you guys liked Armageddon and Holy Wars n stuff

:shrug:

[supernova]

73. Heh.

This makes me smile. And I'm xtian. :D

[NoMoBush]

64. Are you a MODERATE Democrat?

Are you not a far-left Democrat and feel that "Democratic" Underground is intolerant of any views other than "approved" views on issues that David Allen (Skinner) has decided are "litmus test" issues??? Write me at:
[e-mail]

"Democratic" Underground: SILENCING The Voices of JFK Democrats....

[Jacobin]

87. Oh fer cryin out loud

[thebigidea]

117. Are you lonely? Deppppressed? Suicidal? Keep it up.

[keithyboy]

118. Beetwasher for President!!

I'd vote for you.

[ithacan]

98. thank you

for making this point.

AMERICANS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS BEING IN IRAQ!!!

Americans have fucked over Iraq and its people enough already:

Supporting Saddam in the 1980s

Pushing Saddam to fight an 8 year war with Iran killing millions of Iraqis

Gulf War I

Sanctions

Bush's war

And people wonder why they hate Americans? Talk about self-deception...

[keithyboy]

110. Kicking for the night crew.

People really need to start looking themselves in the mirror.