Was the death scene in Fallujah any different from the death scene

[CatWoman]

when our military killed Saddam's sons, along with a small boy, and put thier bodies on display?

Or are they equally horriffic?

What do you think?

[Stuckinthebush]

1. No - equally horrific

We forget that war is hell.

[daveskilt]

2. there is the matter of culture difference

it is less offensive and even tradition in some middle eastern tribal cultures to display the bodies (on either side) in order to prove they are dead (esp with leaders). While horrific to western sensibilities it is not without cultural contextual precedent.

Now the fact that we were infidels desecrating the bodies as opposed to giving them proper muslim rites and respect when displaying them is another matter.

on edit : its all pretty nasty though.

[mikey_1962]

3. Those scenes really got my friends worked up... I didn't see 'em

[maggrwaggr]

4. good point. How soon we forget

also, when I had my five minutes yesterday where I could actually listen to the news, I remember them saying how we killed a TON of people in Fallujah, I think it was 8 people in a demonstration that we shot, then 6 Iraqi policemen that we shot "by mistake" and I believe there were others.

They're pretty pissed off in Fallujah and they've got good reason to be.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Shit like this should be expected given the situation that WE CREATED THERE.

[glarius]

5. To the Iraqi people they are probably the same.... to average Americans

they are not,...People tend to think their pain is worse than the other guy's...IMO

[Mistress Quickly]

6. While I see your point

the US didn't drag Uday and Qusay's charred bodies through the streets, kicking them and stomping on them, then chop the bodies up with a shovel and hang parts of them over the river and feed some of them to the dogs.

[Insider]

9. if they had been killed in the u.s.?

perhaps?

[Mistress Quickly]

11. But that didn't happen,

so that point is moot.

Nope, sorry, no pity for Uday and Qusay. And the US had to show the bodies, or else no one would believe it.

Now, if you want to compare it to civilians killed in this war, that would be closer to the same. But the US isn't dragging those bodies around the cities either.

But Uday and Qusay and the display of their bodies? Nope. Not even close.

[CatWoman]

13. I'm not taking up for Uday and Qusay

but I am taking up for the young boy.

From what I understand, just the embalming of and plastic surgery performed on the bodies enraged a lot of Muslims.

[Mistress Quickly]

15. Like I said

the civilians are one thing, Uday and Qusay are another.

But I still don't think its as horrific as what was done yesterday. Watching the blackened bodies being kicked around like a soccerball was pretty stomach turning.

You asked, and I opined.

[HFishbine]

46. Was the young boy

shown on TV?

[Insider]

17. your comparison is also moot then

these deaths happened on iraqi soil. can't compare how iraqis are responding in their country to how invading forces would treat sons of the sovereign leader (oh, former leader?)

[CatWoman]

19. great point, E

:thumbsup:

[Insider]

24. damn, that's it for april!

my one cogent point per month. oh well, it was for a good cause.

[Mistress Quickly]

22. Then you're right

there is no difference

( /sarcasm)

That's just how I feel.

[Insider]

28. seriously

u.s. civilians have an immediate solution: come home.

iraqi's have no such solution.

[Mistress Quickly]

30. I understand

but then use the prisoners in Camp X-Ray and Delta who had their pictures splashed on TV and the internet, other victims, but not Uday and Qusay, to compare it to.

And besides, it was very horrific, and none of our military would do anything like that, and it belittles the guys over there doing the job they have been handed!

For god's sake, they chopped the burnt people up with shovels and hung parts of them up, and then fed parts of them to dogs.

While it may have been not so right in showing Uday and Qusay on TV, that is absolutely not in the same league.

[DrWeird]

34. "none of our military would do anything like that"

So making necklaces out of dead people's ears is different?

[Mistress Quickly]

39. huh?

link?

[CatWoman]

48. link, or

*blink*?

[shekina]

27. I agree

Uday and Qusay got exactly what was coming to them and I hope they're enjoying frying in hell right now.

I feel enormous sympathy for the Iraqis and the Americans over there, but absolutely none for Uday, Qusay, or Saddam.

[mhr]

12. So Indiscriminate Cluster Bombs Killing Children Don't Count?

Your Hypocrisy Is Killing Your Argument!

[Mistress Quickly]

14. Please see my above post about civilians

but that wasn't the question.

[mhr]

16. The Cluster Bombs Are Worse Because The Killers Go Unseen

Your Argument Is Still Very Weak.

[Must_B_Free]

52. No - in the US we do that to live people

like that black guy in Texas that they chained to a truck and dragged to his death...

[Minstrel Boy]

7. Something else those pictures reminded me of:

The beaten and mutilated bodies of Mussolini and his mistress, hanging by their heels in a Milan square at the end of the war.

Brutal? Yes. But they were "our" partisans, right?

[hexola]

21. Don't forget Nikolai Chauchesku - Romania 1989

Who strung him up?

[Insider]

8. equally horrific, yes

and someone posted those picks yesterday i believe. i had never seen them until yesterday...i know someone posted them.

all life is sacred. period.

[Mattforclark]

10. Pretty horific

chopping up bodies and hanging them from bridges.

But that's exactly the kind of thing we should expect in shitholes like Fallujah or Mogadishu.

[dpibel]

32. On quite a number of levels

This post is reprehensible, absurd, pathetic, revolting and a number of other similar things.

But that's exactly what we should expect from shitheads like...

(and if the original post was intended to be ironic: bad job)

[Mattforclark]

33. That's what happens in war.

War is all about death, violent death, mutilation, pain, and suffering. Denying it does not make it go away. We should acknowledge fully the death, injury, and immense pain that goes hand in hand in war. All of this sort of thing is the VERY predictable result of war, and we should frankly understand it.

That's what I am trying to say.

"reprehensible, absurd, pathetic, revolting"

Yep, that's war for you!

[dpibel]

37. The problem with non-specificity

Or is it backing and filling?

Please direct me to the part of your post #10 that indicates it's a commentary on war and your attempt to wake the slumbering to the, as you put it, "horific" consequences.

See, when you want to communicate an idea in English, you pretty much have to put in a few words that embody that idea, or express it even obliquely.

You might consider whether, "But that's exactly the kind of thing we should expect in shitholes like Fallujah or Mogadishu." (Post #10) communicates in any way, "Yep, that's war for you." (Post #33)

See how that works? In post #10, the source of the problem is "shitholes." Suddenly, in #33, it's a noble statement on war.

Did you err in your first post, and forget to include your essential message? Or are you shucking? Or jiving? Or ducking? Or dodging?

[Mattforclark]

40. Sure thing

"Please direct me to the part of your post #10 that indicates it's a commentary on war and your attempt to wake the slumbering to the, as you put it, "horific" consequences."

:

But that's exactly the kind of thing we should expect in shitholes like Fallujah or Mogadishu.

"See, when you want to communicate an idea in English, you pretty much have to put in a few words that embody that idea, or express it even obliquely."

Of course, language is a very interesting thing. In Falluja = War. In Mogadishu = War. But you are correct though, I could have also included Hue, and lots of other examples. Those places were, and for the most part, still are, also shitholes.

"You might consider whether, "But that's exactly the kind of thing we should expect in shitholes like Fallujah or Mogadishu." (Post #10) communicates in any way, "Yep, that's war for you." (Post #33)"

It's not really the fault of the people in most of the third world that they live in shitholes, and live on tiny amounts of money per day, and are ravaged by AIDS, and so on. When you add war on top of all of that, you have a very un-nice place to live, which deserves the title "shithole" if anything does.

"See how that works? In post #10, the source of the problem is "shitholes." Suddenly, in #33, it's a noble statement on war."

I don't doubt for a moment that if some sort of Arab army invaded some city in the US that the same thing would happen. The source of the problem isn't so much shitholes, shitholes are much more a symptom of the problem. The problem is human nature. In every human being lies a latent killer. And I don't think that there is any such thing as a noble statement on war. Nobility has nothing to do with it. Frankness does. War is hell, and when you go to war you should expect hell.

"Did you err in your first post, and forget to include your essential message? Or are you shucking? Or jiving? Or ducking? Or dodging?"

I don't think so. War is shitty and takes place in shitholes. That's my view. Falluja and Mogadishu are shitholes. Do you honestly not think they are not shitholes??????

[dpibel]

42. Well, by golly, why should they hate us for our freedoms

when we can supply them with jingoism?

This is so over the top, Matt, that I have come to the conclusion you're just trying to yank my chain.

Good fun, sonny.

If you're actually serious your presentation is shitty, and your logic is absent. Other than that: great points!

And I'm not going to continue this so you can continue to reiterate your singular expression of the spirit and flesh of the Ugly American.

[Mattforclark]

43. I don't see what's the least jingoistic.

about stating quite explicitly that Americans are fully as capable as Iraqis of hanging charred bodies off of bridges. There's all sorts of places in America that are also shitholes, if that makes you feel better. I certainly don't like shitholes, which is why I support liberal policies.

"jin·go·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jngg-zm)
n.
Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; chauvinistic patriotism."

[leftofthedial]

18. That was THEM

Saddam's sons was US

Totally different.

[CatWoman]

20. i don't get it

:shrug:

[leftofthedial]

26. me either

it's all barbarism.

It will only get worse before it gets better with all the fundies in control of everything.

[DemLikr]

23. We dressed up and put makeup on the Hussein boys before desecrating their

bodies.

SHOULDN'T THAT COUNT FOR SOMETHING?! :eyes:

[KoKo]

25. Bush is a vengeful President. An "eye for an eye" type of guy. He has

reduced everything to killing the "evil ones." If some others see us as evil, he won't understand that in his pea brain. He started this by displaying whatever he could of our "dismantling of Saddam's regime in Iraq." Our soldiers tore down a statue that should have been the Iraqi's job to do, our photographs of Saddam's sons were shown all over our airwaves, and how many times have we seen the picture of Saddam a dazed helpless, dirty flea infested old man having his mouth scraped.

Bush brought this on. It was only a matter of time. Violence begets violence and Bush/Cheney PNAC/RW "get off" on it.

[CatWoman]

31. Excellent points, Koko

excellent all.

It seems when we do it, it is justice.

When they do it, it's about them being evildoers incarnate.

[maddezmom]

29. to me equally horriffic

But it's a matter of perspective, I suppose. But I feel we need to see it, for reality to set in.

[sandnsea]

35. We hung them on bridges????

Funny, I don't recall that. Tied one of them behind a car and drug it through the streets? Don't recall that either.

This kind of thread is pure shit. WTF is wrong with you people? The two aren't remotely the same.

[DrWeird]

36. Sure they are.

They had a street party, we had jokes on late night talk shows.

[CatWoman]

41. and what are you full of, my friend?

[Jacobin]

45. Um, do you remember shock and awe?

There were pictures of people in bars in this country yukking it up, high fiving each other and fucking celebrating the carnage we were creating with hundreds of thousands of bombs and missiles when it started. They were LAUGHING and CELEBRATING.

Maybe I'm a bit distorted. I think these sick fucks were way worse than the Iraqis, using their own hands and weapons, fighting to evict the invaders from their country.

But, that's just me.

[sandnsea]

47. That's not THIS thread

The original post was comparing two specific events which aren't remotely similar.

Just as when Scarborough said the people who did this were subhuman and that's why Americans were better, he's a hypocrite too. What about James Byrd? What about Matthew Shepherd? What about Abner Louima?

It's disgusting when this kind of narrow-minded shit comes out from either side. We're not worse than them and they're not worse than us. It just makes me sick when people exploit tragic events for political purposes on either side.

[Jacobin]

49. Oh, so now you're the thread monitor

Fine.

I'm comparing two fucking specific instances.

I saw, in one specific instance, people high fiving each other in this country as we were blasting thousands of human beings to death.

In the other specific instance, I saw a few dozen iraqis celebrating the killing of four mercenaries who had invaded their country, stolen their resources, and otherwise fucked up their country. They were happy too. Also, they had the GUTS to do it themselves and burned and mutilated those who were repressing them.

The guys in the bar hired a bunch of out of work teenagers to do their little blood lust high.

[sandnsea]

51. We're saying the same thing

Let's put it this way. The original post compared actions of the military (putting pictures on TV), with actions of civilians (hanging soldiers from a bridge). The actions aren't similar at all and the groups involved aren't similar. If there were a similar act by soldiers, then the comparison could be made. Even handcuffing children with plastic, as much as I hate that, isn't nearly the same as burning people to a crisp, dragging them in the streets and hanging them on a bridge. To say our soldiers have acted just as badly as those involved in this situation is just flat wrong and only being made to shit on soldiers. A fairer comparison would be between the behavior of our worst civilians here at home and some civilians in Iraq. There is an argument to be made there and I haven't denied it.

[KG]

38. remember: atrocities only happen to USians

charred iraq kids are only 'collateral damage'

[keithyboy]

44. CatWoman, you always know what to say.

I admire your thinking!

[theHandpuppet]

50. Or how about something closer to home...

Like the Rev Fred Phelps' celebration of the death of Matthew Shepherd, which included picketing his funeral with little children holding up signs like "God Hates Fags" and "Matthew Shepherd Burn In Hell".

Gee, where was the national outrage then? Where were the calls for retribution against this homegrown barbarism? How the hell so you think we feel when hatemongers like this show up to celebrate the deaths of gays who have been beaten and murdered?

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." -- Jesus Christ

[Doomsayer13]

53. we killed them in a firefight

the death of the young boy was a horrific incident, but Saddams Sons were killed in a firefight, and they were not lit on fire, dismembered, and strung up on the nearest bridge, actions which the Hussein brothers never hesitated to inflict on the citizens of Iraq.