Savage last night: a woman was 1 of 4 Americans killed yesterday

[bobbieinok]

anyone else reporting this???

or is this another point to further enrage his listeners??

[BJ]

1. Here's what you tell that scum-suckin' punk.

So what if one of the four "contractors" killed in Fallujah was a woman.

They all worked for Blackwater Securitya private military organization.

They were not some poor dumb hardhats who took the wrong turn on the freeway and ended up in a bad neighborhood.

They are professional killers, hired guns. In short MERCENARIES!

[John BigBootay]

12. They were hired to protect food shipments into Fallujah--

I've got the solution: No more food for Fallujah.

[rumguy]

14. Why weren't soldiers doing it?

Why are we using private armies?

[KurtNilsen]

17. self deleted

[rumguy]

20. Why not?

[KurtNilsen]

29. I deleted my post, because I don't really know what I am talking

about. There are enough people on the net spouting undocumented hot air, without the need for me to contribute.

That said, I suspect there are too few troops. Or perhaps they thought private contractors would be safer... I really don't know,

[John BigBootay]

19. Good question--

We'll have to wait and see how the story unfolds.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

21. Gee, lets blame a whole region for the actions of a few

I would not want to be judged by my current government. Maybe YOU would, but that's your choice. But lets make the people whose country we destroyed suffer without adequate food. That's the way to win hearts and minds! :eyes:

[Hell Hath No Fury]

23. And if you think that's ALL...

they were hired for, you're not paying attention....

[John BigBootay]

30. Let's hear it-- what were they REALLY hired for? n/t

[Kathy in Cambridge]

34. They were probably CIA

Many CIA agents work for 'front' companies that allow them to gather intelligence while protecting their identities. Nothing new here-it's been done for decades.

[John BigBootay]

41. And your proof of this is....???

on edit:

Does being CIA make it "OK" to perpetrate acts of barbarism?

[KurtNilsen]

16. Getting profficient with the Cut and pasting?

They worked security for food deliveries.

[rumguy]

32. I bet they also work for Halliburton

I wonder who owns this Blackwater army?

[lapislzi]

2. What of it?

If it's true, that is.

Is it somehow more egregious to kill women? How could this atrocity possibly be any worse? The gender of the victims should be irrelevant.

[StClone]

3. You think that was Savage Wiener's angle?

"These brown skinned evil doers kill women!"

What a maroon.

[lapislzi]

4. Wouldn't know...never watch the guy

I can understand the spin and who it's designed to inflame. I was only deconstructing it.

For my money, it's all of a piece. It's awful. I don't care if they were paid mercenaries or what...it's still awful, and I am sorry for their families.

[KoKo]

6. Why were these four so hated, though? That's what we don't know.

I still keep thinking that they did something to provoke the ire of these folks. American Soldiers (the regular ones) haven't been selected for such brutal treatment. :shrug:

[lapislzi]

9. Provoke?

What could a person possibly do to provoke people to dismember his or her dead body? How can that be justified? I can't get my mind around brutality of that degree.

But I can think of few instances where violence is ever justified.

[outinforce]

13. Are You Suggesting....

Are you suggesting that hatred is ever deserved? Or that these victims of hatred are somehow to blame for their fate because they might have "provoked" such outrageous hatred against them?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

Any more than I buy the argument that Matt Shepherd somehow "deserved" the hatred that caused his terrible death. Or that Matt somehow "provoked" the hatred that caused his killers to murder him.

These four people are the victims of hatred.

That's all I need to know.

[KoKo]

36. See my reply #27 down the thread here.

[outinforce]

40. I Read Post #27

and it appears to me (although I could be wrong) that you are saying that since "this is war" and since "we really do not know everything that might have motivated the actions against the four Americans", we really cannot judge the actions against the 4 Americans in any way.

If that is indeed what you are saying, then please permit me to ask you this:

Would you use the same justification (it's war and we really cannot know what motivated terrible acts of brutality) to excuse or justify American soldiers brutally killing 4 Iraqis and then desecrating their bodies?

I would never want toexcuse American soldiers for any such action -- even if it was in a time of war and even if I did not know all the circumstances that may have given rise to such an act of barbarity.

[KoKo]

45. It's not excusing it....it's waiting to find out the facts before we use

it as an excuse to bomb the town (which is being suggested already and MSNBC or CNN had a poll up today about whether "action" is justified in Faluja.

And, I would say the same about soldiers doing this to Falujans. I would want to know why they did it. Using brutality as an excuse for more brutality doesn't solve anything.

[outinforce]

47. Are You Now Suggesting that

Are you now suggesting that there are some circumstances under which it would be acceptable for the US to bomb the town of Faluja?

If the facts show that the motivation for the murder and desecration of 4 Americans was motivated by nothing but pure hatred, are you suggesting that that would be sufficient reason for the US to bomb innocent people in Faluja?

It is my own view that it is possible to condemn the actions of the people who killed, mutilated, and descrecrated the bodies of four Americans without knowing their motives.

And, should the US decide to bomb Faluja, it seems to me that there is no reason why we should allow our government to get away with saying that it is doing so because "the facts" demonstrate that bombing the Falujans is somehow justified.

[KoKo]

50. I have to honestly believe you aren't reading my posts that you would

suggest that I'm saying we should "bomb Falluja" when in fact I said just the opposite. So, I've got to assume you are just baiting me for your own purposes, so I won't answer any more of your posts. I thought you wanted a discussion of differing viewpoints, but instead you are misinterpreting my words.

C-Ya

[Hell Hath No Fury]

33. Good question...

A poster on another thread on this topic asked why we would need to hire security forces. This was part of my reply:

....Two, there are certain jobs these "civilians" can do that the armed forces can't. Stuff "outside" of the law, if you get my drift.

As for January, we had over 10,000 mercenaries over there, with more on the way.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html

US hires mercenaries for Iraq role
By Jonathan Franklin
Santiago
March 6, 2004

The US is hiring mercenaries in Chile to replace its soldiers on security duty in Iraq. A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

snip...

The privatisation of security in Iraq is growing as the US seeks to reduce its commitment of troops. At the end of last year there were 10,000 hired security personnel in Iraq.


There was an article awhile back about a new type of ammo being used over there by the "civilans". It's so lethal, it is illegal for the Army to use, but these "civilians" love it. One shot just about blows a person in half.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

1-shot killer
This 5.56mm round has all the stopping power you need — but you can’t use it. Here’s why:

By John G. Roos
Special to the Times


Ben Thomas and three colleagues were driving north out of Baghdad in an SUV on a clear mid-September morning, headed down a dirt road into a rural village, when gunmen in several surrounding buildings opened fire on them. In a brief but intense firefight, Thomas hit one of the attackers with a single shot from his M4 carbine at a distance he estimates was 100 to 110 yards.

He hit the man in the buttocks, a wound that typically is not fatal. But this round appeared to kill the assailant instantly.

“It entered his butt and completely destroyed everything in the lower left section of his stomach ... everything was torn apart,” Thomas said.

Thomas, a security consultant with a private company contracted by the government, recorded the first known enemy kill using a new — and controversial — bullet.

The bullet is so controversial that if Thomas, a former SEAL, had been on active duty, he would have been court-martialed for using it. The ammunition is “nonstandard” and hasn’t passed the military’s approval process.



When you are hiring ex-special formces, ex-CIA, ex-Pinichet folks, you can BET they are not just "guarding" things.

I suspect the reason "civilians" are being attacked is because they are doing some of the very dirty work work there, and the locals don't like it.

[maggrwaggr]

7. you go there voluntarily, you take your chances

that's the bottom line.

These people all knew what they were getting into.

[lapislzi]

15. If your choice is to risk your life in exchange for a paycheck

What does that say about your options? The use of private "security" personnel is just another aspect of the de facto economic draft in this country.

In any case, the fact that those people were there "voluntarily" doesn't excuse brutality, and it never will.

[maggrwaggr]

25. I'm sure these people didn't "have" to join a private security firm

they were ex military who chose to.

They were practicing their chosen profession.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And of course that doesn't excuse the brutality.

[lapislzi]

31. I'll take your word for it, because I don't know

I don't hold mercenaries in very high regard, but nobody deserves to die that way.

This incident bodes ill all around. It will do nothing but harm to the residents of Fallujah, who will likely be brutalized in their turn. Just what we need. Another spiral of violence in the middle east.

[maggrwaggr]

38. they were quite dead before they were pulled from the car

so what difference does it make?

[lapislzi]

39. You miss my point

They were still murdered. It was still brutality. It is still inexcusable, as are any incidences of brutality by American or other "coalition" troops on Iraqis.

Ask their mothers if it was OK to burn and dismember them because they were already dead. Ask Mrs. Saddam Hussein the same question about her two sons.

Brutality breeds brutality.

I feel like some kind of cross between Diogenes and Kurtz...stumbling around in the dark, mumbling, "the horror, the horror."

[maggrwaggr]

55. here's my point

The issue is hypocrisy.

It's hypocritical to get up on a moral high horse and act all outraged that a group of people who were invaded, brutalized, blown to pieces, maimed, and who are now being occupied BY US wouldn't be expected to explode in anger AT US.

The people who act all surprised by this are hypocrites.

And they have a really bad double standard.

Like "it's okay for us to blow your women and children to pieces, we were doing you a favor, don't you get it?"

Your average Iraqi probably has NO IDEA why their country was invaded. You think they were watching CNN and watching Colin Powell at the UN before they were invaded? Of course not. They were watching state-run television (if they ahd televisions, which is doubtful) and next thing they knew, they were being bombed by a bunch of white people who then took over their cities and started shooting at their civilians.

It is naive to expect these people to NOT want to butcher us.

[outinforce]

57. So Are You Saying Then

So are you saying then that the real victims in the incident in Fallujah were not the four Americans who were killed and had their bodies mutilated and hung from bridges?

Are you saying, rather, that the real victims were the people who carried out this act of hate-filled murder and mutilation?

And, if the Iraqis were somehow justified in doing what they did -- because they were outrasged over what had happened to their women and children, would the US now be justified in going in and murdering some more Iraqis because of our sense of outrage over what they did to us?

[maggrwaggr]

5. this just in: little girl was one of 10,000 Iraqis murdered by America:

[KurtNilsen]

22. You are missing the point!!!!!!!!!!!!

The whole thing would (unfortunately) have been a non-story if it hadn't been for the gruesome post-morten celebrations.

[KoKo]

37. How was it that this was all filmed on camera? I heard CNN guy saying

Falluja was not safe for reporters or anyone. So, how come this all got on video? Another question I don't know the answer to, which is why I wonder what the true background of all this is? :shrug:

[oasis]

42. Al Jazeera and another Arab speaking news crew shot the footage.

[KoKo]

53. Thanks for the info on this that it was Al Jazeera. But how did they know

to be there??? :shrug:

[mikey_1962]

8. I don't believe anything Savage has to say

[MidwestTransplant]

10. If he found out she had AIDS

would he say she deserved it?

[KoKo]

27. My point was that we don't know the circumstances. I don't want to judge

why these four were singled out for such brutal treatment until I know the background. They were hired security forces. What was the experience of the Fallujans with "hired security forces," or with these four people? This is a war zone. This is different from someone getting aids or an innocent woman getting raped because someone says whe was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or any other kind of horrible brutality like Matthew Shepard.

This is a war. Why were these folks treated more brutally than any of our soldiers or other "hired security" in Iraq in the last year.

Maybe it means the violence is escalating, and tempers are out of control with the Fallujans, maybe these four were responsible or implicated by the Fallujans in something we don't know about, or the four were seen as vulnerable. But we don't know.

Since we don't know we can condemn the brutality but knowing the circumstances is important, also. I don't see how we can bomb the whole town when we don't know. They didn't ask us to invade their country, but we should find out why these folks were treated this way before we go mow the whole place down.

[DemLikr]

11. and of course, it is more morally repugnant to kill women than men

:eyes:

[arcos]

18. Thank you...

that's what I was thinking, glad someone said it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Me2 (nt)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

28. Me 3

[Pattib]

43. I've never understood that. Could you explain why you feel that way?

I'm a woman and I can certainly see why people are repulsed by the killing of children, absolutely. However, I have never understood the phrase "innocent women and children".

I have a son and a daughter and their lives are of equal value to me. As a woman who formerly served in the military I never thought my life had/has more value than any other adult person.

[arcos]

44. (s)he was being sarcastic.. n/t

[DemLikr]

49. Sorry, Patib. I assumed my sarcasm was evident. OK, sarcasm off again

[Pattib]

51. Oh, O.K...guess I should have followed the thread all the way through.NT

[IronLionZion]

26. don't listen to Savage

he makes Rush Limbaugh sound like a moderate.

[Robin Hood]

35. They're using private contractors to avoid the inevitable draft.

nt.

[Mari333]

46. right. and people will savagely turn on Savage once the Draft

is enacted upon their daughters and their sons.
PS... sons are just as important to parents as daughters are and just as valuable.
www.bushdraft.com

[Calico Jack Rackham]

48. I'm Curious

If these guys were security for food shipments to Fallujah, then where was the rest of the food convoy? Even if this group was doing a route reconnaissance for a future shipment, they surly would have been smarter to go out with a much larger force or at the very least notify CPA forces of their routes and mission plan.

Honestly this whole situation reeks of something else. While I do not defend the brutality that these guys were shown, I can only say that they knew what they were getting into and made the choice to go in on their own; furthermore, the rage shown by the Fallujans is indicative of their hatred towards the occupiers.

If you all remember, Fallujah was relatively quite until April 28, 2003 when US troops opened fire on a group of protestors demanding work, which killed 15 civilians. About 90% of the violence coming from Fallujah could be pinpointed to this event. Before this date either Fallujah was relatively quite or the media was not reporting too many attacks out of this city.

[opihimoimoi]

52. It was an attack that seems to be part of the Larger Picture. That of

driving occupiers/"US" out of the region.

They saw what happened in Beirut, that we pulled out soon after the Marines took a major hit.
Same with the Koreans who took our Navy ship USS Pueblo, and the Iran Hostage thing, etc etc, the Point is: We run when the blood is flowing, or we can't get OUR way.

Its deeper than we realize.

We want to control. Now we are finding out we cannot. The Iraqi Resistance will nickle and dime us to death. They got Passion, they got Heart, they got a thing called Emotion.

That said, they will dictate this war with their Control, we can only respond with Reaction. They decide if and when to hit us, that is their CONTROL. Our Armies want to win the old fashion way, by suppression and Domination. The longer we wait for a better solution, more of our troops will bite it. But our Mil People and their Masters(Rummy and Staff) are stuck with fighting ghosts....the
invisible. For everyone we get, 4 steps in.

For the Terror guys, Bush is an enigma. dammed if you do and damned you dont.

And so, back to the woman killed. I am sorry... for her and all the others on both sides. Its the result of a mind battle between the Al Qaida guys and America. The Resistence will do what it takes for us to get out in ways skirting the Military domination enjoyed by the Coalition.

[Calico Jack Rackham]

54. As far as Nickle and Diming us in Iraq

I believe it was Ho Chi Mihn who stated during the Vietnam war " You will kill ten of ours and we will kill one of yours, in the end it is you who will tire of it."

[opihimoimoi]

56. It appears to be happening this very moment, Just look at the TV

newscasts..... and headlines.

We are such fools to let a leader in our White House who seems to know nothing of History. Worse, he does not seriously read/ The neurons in his brain(Bush) appears LIMITED... thus very few good ideas and notions.