CBS covering contractors killed in Fallujah

[IkeWarnedUs]

The preview included that they are "specially trained" and showed clip of "contractors" with machine guns.

[JohnLocke]

1. "They deserved it" in 5...4....3...2...1...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

2. They deserve it. Profitting form war earns you what you get

This is the danger of privatized militias..no war..no profit. They are anathema to democracy..feel free to discredit it all you want..it doesn't alter the fact.

[JohnLocke]

9. Bullshit. They were security guards working to deliver food.

"Intelligence sources in Washington said the four were not working for the CIA. They worked for Blackwater Security Consulting, of Haycock, N.N., providing security for food delivery in the Fallujah area..." (Washington Post)

This "they deserved it" stuff is crap. They were security guards.

[Jacobin]

11. Apparently, they were not well received nonetheless

Maybe its the company they kept (American)

Any clues in here?

[JohnLocke]

12. Lynch mob: Hey, let's kill a random American!

[Jacobin]

16. Can you please answer this for me?

If China invaded this country to get rid of our WMD, do a regime change to oust Smirk (used WMDs in the past in Japan, aggressively invading other countries), and then they occupied us and knocked down doors of homes at night, felt up your wife and daughter, arrested your sons and jailed them (one of their enemies fingered them for spite), and unemployment was 70%, they refused to leave your country, and then decided that you should have a Chinese form of government (undisputable the best doncha know), and rained melting exploding metal from the sky.......let's say you had been through this for a year and the sunsabitches decided they were gonna STAy.....Please tell me that you would be glad and rejoice, were you able to strike a blow at an occupying enabler in an attempt to expel the invaders.

I would.

If you wouldn't our value systems are so utterly different, that there is no further benefit to either of us in further discussion.

[ConcernedCanuk]

41. You got it -

.
.
.

Don't think the Iraqis see this as "freedom" from a dictator - just a "change"

Not only that, the "new" diktators are trying to change their religion - hmmm bad idea, messing with a person's religion let alone a whole COUNTRY!

And some say that the 10,000+ innocent Iraqis killed by the invasion is less than Saddam would have done in the same time period -

yeah - I know sick that analysis is, but I've seen it around -

Point is; to alot of these Iraqis, these PARTICULAR citizens would not have been bothered by Saddam, because alot of the people were wise enough, stay out of Saddam's face, no problem.

Them "smart" bombs of the US's weren't so smart . .

And them "geniuses" in the WH don't seem to realize there is no "mastermind" to these killings - THOUSANDS of families have lost their loved ones to the USA's "shock 'n awe" and the killing of Americans or their supporters will not stop until they are out of Iraq -

Remember, those 4,5, 8, 9 year -olds that saw their brother, mother, father, friend etc., blown to pieces with American bombs - and see their friends die playing with cluster bombs, the diseases that will increase from the DU (depleted Uranium)

They'll grow up!

Generations to come will hate this invasion

Only by the US leaving the country can the healing process begin . . .

(sigh)

[tishaLA]

14. I thought it was widely reported that they also

"protected" administrators in Iraq, including Bremer. Is this untrue? If it is, why were so many of them Special Forces? With 130K troops in Iraq, why do we need additional private security forces?

[JohnLocke]

18. Answer

They perform paramilitary-type jobs -- jobs that would be for civilians in less dangerous locales. This is a statement from their website:

Blackwater Training Center was founded in 1996 to fulfill the anticipated demand for government outsourcing of firearms and related security training.

So basically, Blackwater is a government contractor. In the hands of a psychotic Republican, like Bush, they could be dangerous; in the hands of a sane Democrat, they can help keep the peace.

[tishaLA]

30. So their website, which would never be self serving

says they put them in safe areas. Like Fallujah? Where there have been innumerable acts of violent civil disobedience?

Yes, I'm glad those former Special Forces folks are only working in safe areas and only doing it to "keep the peace." There'd be nothing provocative about that in an occupied country, would there?

[Jose Diablo]

45. Ya better get ready because

when these mercs finish in Iraq they will be over here "to keep the peace".

You can then shower them with flowers in person.

[theHandpuppet]

15. At least one of these "security guards"...

... was carrying a DoD ID.

[leanings]

22. When you retire from the military.

You get a DoD ID card.

[JohnLocke]

24. So? Almost all contractors in Iraq carry an ID from the DoD.

Witnesses in Fallujah said several of the men had Defense Department badges, though such identification is common for contractor working for the occupation authorities." (emphasis mine)
-- Washington Post

By the way, not everyone who works for the DoD is an evil psycho. The troops and defense contractors are a tool of the U.S government, whether responsible or irresponsible.

Edit: punctuation.

[leanings]

29. Dude, you might as well just give it up.

I tried this last night. DU Official Zeitgeist states that contract security personnel are mercenaries, butchers and hired killers, deserving of a horrible death. There's nothing you can do to challenge that ruling, altho it's adherents can't provide you with any examples of US contractors actually killing anyone or come up with an alternative solution to the problem of protecting non-military organizations in war zones.

[JohnLocke]

36. Excellent post! You, my friend, are an excellent satirist.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[leanings]

42. Thanks.

Altho I'm serious as a heart attack.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

46. They weren't desk jockeys: major news stations calling them MERCENARIES

What happened to them was horrible. You and JohnLocke shouldn't dismiss them as non-CIA, though. A lot of these companies-and many NGOs-are fronts for the CIA.

No one deserves a death like that. The blame lays firmly on the Bush administration.

[leanings]

49. No one deserves a death like that. The blame lays firmly on the Bush admin

Altho I disagree with you for reasons that I've gone into at length elsewhere, I thank you for that acknowledgement. There are many here that think those guys had it coming.

[Jose Diablo]

56. Didn't the founding fathers of this country have an intense hatred

for the German mercenaries the British hired? I wonder why.

You may notice that one of the few ways to lose US citizenship is fighting in a foreign army as a mercenary.

There are good reasons why a "professional" standing army is a threat to democracy. Eventually, even Ceasar crossed the Rubicon. And Ceasar was a patriot too. Been my experience, warriors dislike citizens more than the enemy, notwithstanding all the platitudes we hear from military types. At least ya have to respect the enemy, they can kill you, but a citizen, well they are nothing but a bunch of weak freeloaders.

Does anybody here seriously doubt that much of our current difficulties has at its source, funding a standing army for 60 years. All in the name of being a "superpower". Of course, its 'our' responsibility as the leader of the free world to be all powerful, right?

Or is this army really to protect our corporations (uh wealthy investors investments), help me out here.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

20. Yeah right..of course they are going to admit they are CIA

For the record this sort of shit is exactly why the inspections were undermined...CIA going in under the cover of inspectors...Falulah is a mess and even charities are staying away because of it.

All this demonstrates is your willingness to be gullible in the matter.

[JohnLocke]

28. If they wanted to deny they're CIA, why use an anonymous source?

If they wanted to deny they were CIA operatives, why did the Washington Post quote an "intelligence official" instead of "spokesman so-and-so"?

[northzax]

55. The CIA never officially comments on anyone

Frankly, I doubt these guys were Company, too rank amateurish. I think they were just what they were described as, private soldiers working security. And in a war zone, security means a lot of things. (Pinkerton is a security company, their men used to beat striking workers.) Blackwater is staffed by a remarkably high number of ex-special forces guys. Somehow, I doubt a lot of SEALS leave the service to become every day rent-a-cops, working a desk at the front of an anonymous office building.

This incident was horrendus, but it is incredibly unrealistic to send contract security guys into a place that Marines will not go. But why send them? so the military doesn't have to go help them if they get into trouble. THe local Marine commander said he refused to send in a tank to 'get a few dead bodies' think he'd have said that if they were Marines?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbieinok]

23. see Mother Jones article on this company and others

[JohnLocke]

25. Link?

[maddezmom]

35. here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1327813

[JohnLocke]

38. Thanks. Much obliged (nt).

[IkeWarnedUs]

51. Not your typical "security guards"

Whether they are called security guards or delivery boys, to the people of Fallujah they are Americans with guns. Big guns. Illegal guns in some cases.

It doesn't make it right. But the way the people of Fallujah handled this - not just killing, but annihilating them and displaying their bodies and dancing in the streets - shows it was a crime of passion and rage.

They didn't attack the AP cameraman who filmed it all.

I am NOT saying they deserved it. But neither were they innocent, altruistic civilians.

Try the red pill.

And it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

Learn what Blackwater Security is all about. From their website:

Blackwater Security Consulting is a strategic division of Blackwater USA. Blackwater USA has historically provided a spectrum of support to military, government agencies, law enforcement and civilian entities in training, targets and range operations as a solution provider. Blackwater Security Consulting has it roots in the Special Operations community and continues to sustain the skills that have been acquired over the years as effective tools that will support both national and commercial objectives. Our staff has a wealth of exceptional experience worldwide and is renowned for dealing with high-risk situations and complex operations. Our mission is to provide the client with veteran military, intelligence and law enforcement professionals with demonstrated field operations performance tempered with mature experience in both foreign and domestic requirements. We employ only the most highly motivated and professional operators, all drawn from various U.S. and international Special Operations Forces, Intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations. We focus on physical and personal security, personal security/risk and assessments, and training.

link: http://www.blackwatersecurity.com/

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JaySherman]

52. Can we stop calling them 'contractors?'

And start calling them what they really are: mercenaries. I hate this soft euphemistic language.

[nostamj]

3. really? well CNN called them MERCENARIES

and said that after the US and Britain, they are responsible for the largest military (para-military?) contingent in Iraq.

Coalition of the Contracted

=================

take a toon break!
CARTOONS! The "You Da Prez!" Edition

[maddezmom]

4. and CNNI also reported that the US will "retaliate"

for the killings in Fallujah. This is a cycle that has no end.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. I'll wager on that one

I vote for no end.

[IkeWarnedUs]

8. Hey, that strategy is working so well in Israel

Get someone under your thumb, slap them around and then beat the shit out of them when they strike back.

Richard Clarke isn't in the loop. Ariel Sharon is.

The killings in Fallujah were a crime of passion and rage. People that enraged don't respond well to being shocked and awed.

[IkeWarnedUs]

6. called them "special" citizens

I am glad to hear at least some media outlets are talking about the real nature of the Blackwater contractors.

I've been listening to Air America and didn't know CNN called them mercenaries.

Fallujah is a sacred place to the Iraqi's. I don't know if they worry much about who signs the paychecks of the Americans with the machine guns. And there are reports of these hired guns pulling stuff our soldiers wouldn't dare.

[htuttle]

7. One of the 'special' things about them is that they have no oversight

In fact, it's not even clear who would have jurisdiction over them. The 'host' country? Certainly not the US military.

[JohnLocke]

10. The oversight is by the Coalition Provisional Authority (nt).

[dweller]

13. Pentagon has 'no idea' how many there are

according to CBS.

Estimates range 15,000 or over twice as many of the largest number of troops from UK, #1 in the 'coalition of the willing'.

dp

[teryang]

17. There is a jurisdictional vacuum

...over American contractors. Certainly, the US has no jurisdiction. The only oversight the CPA would have is to have them deported for misconduct. If they found a killing that they didn't feel was justified.

[theHandpuppet]

19. My hat's off to NBC4 in Washington, DC...

... whose morning anchor, Barbara Harrison, was the first to report -- yesterday morning -- that one of those "civilians" killed was in fact carrying a DoD ID.

[JohnLocke]

26. So?

Witnesses in Fallujah said several of the men had Defense Department badges, though such identification is common for contractor working for the occupation authorities." (emphasis mine)
-- Washington Post

By the way, not everyone who works for the DoD is an evil psycho. The troops and defense contractors are a tool of the U.S government, whether responsible or irresponsible.

[theHandpuppet]

33. That's the second time you've gotten snarky with me...

... and repeated yourself for no damned reason at all, but I ignored it the first time. I hadn't made judgments or commentaries in either post here, and most certainly not anything like the "evil psycho" bit. If you want to get nasty with people go somewhere else and aim at your intended target. I won't take crap from you for nothing at all.

I still salute NBC4 for the DoD ID mention because their reporting was much more SPECIFIC and ACCURATE than what I had been hearing on the major news networks. If you don't like that, TOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JohnLocke]

39. A typical non-response.

[theHandpuppet]

44. And what was YOUR response...

... to two totally informative posts sans commentaries? To get snarky with me? What the furk is the problem here -- I'll tell you one thing, I won't be bullied here, so don't pull that on me. Go push someone else around.

[Insider]

37. DoD contractors carry DoD contractor IDs

black & white with "DoD Contractor" on it, at least i did.

[oneighty]

21. Soldiers Of Fortune

Some days have good fortune some days have bad fortune. Life sucks when Karma kicks in.

180

[JohnLocke]

27. "Life sucks when Karma kicks in"? WTF? Tell me you're joking, please.

These four dead Americans are not Bush, Bremer, Rumsfeld, and Cheney. They were working to provide security for food delivery in Fallujah. I understand your anger about this immoral war sold to the American people by this administration. I feel it too, and that's the truth. But saying the killing and mutilation of security guards is "karma" is at once disgusting and misguided.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

31. perhaps the hangup is more w. the company and the concept..

...or privatized paramilitary security.

But, yeah, i do sort of agree with you here on this. I dont see this as something to "cheer" about or make "payback is a bitch" type or comments about what happened.

[tishaLA]

34. I don't think anyone thinks it's something to cheer

but to pretend they are there for food distribution only stretches the limits of credulity.

[leanings]

40. Perhaps very little actual cheering.

Altho there are examples. But plenty of satisfaction, disgusting as that may be.

Do you have any evidence that they weren't there for food distribution? When the DynCorp guys were killed in Gaza escorting State Department personnel to interview Pali students for US scholarships to study in the States, there was a lot of "yeah, surrre they were" around here. Nobody's come up with any glimmer of information contradicting that story, tho. That's the kind of work these contractors do on a regular basis.

[tishaLA]

48. Have YOU read the article linked above?

I don't doubt that some--many--help with food distribution; I cannot make an assertion with any degree of certainty about these four. Can you?

I will not get into the Palestinian/Israeli situation because I will just offend both sides and it is immaterial here. But I will say that these people who are operating without governement oversight are de facto agents of our government, whether you, I, or they see them that way or not. They are a disruptive force in a destablized region of a destablized nation.

[rfkrocks]

43. I agree with you

blaming guys going for food to that death?-I strongly disagree with the moron who is president-all the points about the privatization of the military are well taken-but these guys were humans and like the policy or not fellow citizens- What I find interesting is that the real story is our guys shot up the town the week before and enraged the population-this is getting little coverage in the "liberal media"-maybe the new troops who are rotating in don't have the appropriate response down-but this worst foreign policy error will continue until we get the f out of there-and we need to ask the coward in chief what the hell are we doing there-so sad

[oneighty]

53. When one enters

the lions den to kill and is himself killed. It is karma.

Nobody forced them to go there. It is by choice only. They are Soldiers Of Fortune. I am Ex-EOD. Every issue of our association quarterly advertises for Ex EODs for unexploded ordnance clearance. Only a fool would take that job.

180

[BabsSong]

32. CBS also said that we pay approximately 100 billion a year from

the Pentagon for these troops. And as you said they called them mercenaries and said the Pentagon has no idea how many of them have been killed. Privatized numbers, I guess........

[ROC]

57. These people are contractors

The official policy of the U.S. Government, since 1955 (Ike), is to contract out "inherently non-governmental functions". Go to the OMB site aand see OMC Circular A-76 - first issued in 1966 - and you can work your way to an amazing list of jobs that are to be contracted out. Security guards are on the list. There are thousands of contractors doing all sorts of mundane things in Iraq. Most of them carry DoD id cards.