Why does any 'progressive' insist on using demeaning terms?

[cally]

I started life where it was common to call african-americans colored and somentimes negro. Luckily, noone in my life used the worse term. Latinos/as were called a variety of names none of which I feel comfortable repeating.

I went to an 'integrated' school where language mattered. Sometimes intellectually but often if you did not want to start a fight then you learned to speak to folks with respect. It was the same time that feminists spoke out about referring to him instead of him or her...he or she, etc. Many folks think it doesn't matter but it does. As a small child, I thought women couldn't be doctors, principals, or politicians because the language always used he. Back to my main point, I learned to adjust my language to show respect to my friends. It was negro, then black, then African-American. It was mexican, hispanic, latino then latino/a. I just tried to get along. If I heard that words I used insulted a friend, then I just removed them from my vocabularly. I didn't have a concept of pc, just respect.

This is why I'm shocked at progressives arguing their right to call anyone what they want. Of course you have that right, but why do you want it. It's a matter of respect. If you offend someone, then why not show your respect with more appropriate language?

[maggrwaggr]

1. what exactly are you talking about? n/t

[cally]

4. I posted this about the common use of what

I consider sexist terms. More, I just want a discussion of so many consider the PC police. I don't see it that way. I see it as a matter of respect.

on edit...a less snarky response

[mmm]

6. Spell it out; I have no idea what in the hell you are trying to tell me.

[mmm]

10. What?

Just tell us: say it!

[cally]

16. I don't understand your question

I'm trying to describe why I see no problem with using terms of respect. If someone tells me that I'm using an insulting term, I don't use it anymore. Simple as that. :shrug:

[maggrwaggr]

22. well if I called you "vague" would you find that disrespectful?

I still don't know what you're talking about

[cally]

26. LOL

I'm trying to start a discussion about using terms that show respect and not using terms that your fellow progressives find insulting. I'm not trying to list the terms because they change. That's my point.

[maggrwaggr]

29. ah. well people's notions of that differ from person to person

So if a term offends you, I might not have any idea until I realize you're offended. I also might find it unreasonable that you're offended.

And just because, say, you find a term offensive doesn't mean everybody does.

how's that for vague?

[sangha]

36. I'm sure you can think of a few terms people call offensive

Is it really that much of a mystery? Do you really need all the inappropriate ethnic, racist, and sexist slurs listed before you can understand?

And if you don't know if a certain word will offend some specific individual, here's an idea - use a different word! One that you know is considered appropriate in all settings. Use the word you'd use in front of you child (if you have one)

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. Well, not good enough

If someone calls me "nigger" because it doesn't bother them, that doesn't make it right. Same with the C word for women. Some of the lesser words still show disrespect.

[polazarus]

194. I have been reading your posts for a while now

I highly respect your opinion and I was wondering if is offensive to you for some members of the black community to refer each other as "nigger" or "nigga"? I am of the opinion that word should be erased from our vocabulary. Growing up in Montgomery as a child, I would always here that term being used from both sides. (It was very confusing for me back then)

[Muddleoftheroad]

200. It is a hot topic

There are those who use it and claim that they have reclaimed it as their own word.

I am not one of them. It is not a word I allow to be used to refer to me or a word I allow to be used in my presence. It remains offensive. It is a slave word.

I am not so PC that I would call for banning it. It does have its place in literature (like Mark Twain who wrote about that time period.), but I would love to see its use minimized.

[polazarus]

209. Thanks

I am reading this book called "A Knock At Midnight" which is a collection of some of Dr. Kings sermons. My favorite one so far is the one where he Writes a letter to the Church's of America as the apostle Paul. I have also read his essay that he wrote called "A measure of a Man". His writings stimulate the mind and stir the soul.


I see your point and I agree when it comes to time periods and points in history. Once again, Thanks.

[noiretextatique]

225. i never forget richard pryor's take on the "n" word

he used it liberally before his trip to Africa. he said when he was in Africa, he didn't see any "n's," and it changed his consciousness. he swore to never use that word again.
i have an older friend, a black woman, who uses the word liberally...to distinguish herself from "those" black people. i told her not to use the word with me, because i find her use of it offensive and demeaning. it's not a word i use, but i don't think its usage is always meant to be offensive, or perceived to be offensive.
as for me...i agree with richard pryor.

[formernaderite]

97. Sorry, I must have missed the meeting where we reached consensus....

...on which terms are supposed to be used. For example, alot of guys I work with still refer to themselves as black...they do not like the term african american. You cite that as the most recent progression....are you sure? Although the media has decided that this is the "new" term, do you think some people might not agree? Are you stating that the minority opinion in some cases on "what" the current terminology is, should be discounted?

I freely admit to hating PC language. It offers real racists and sexists the opportunity to hide behind the language. Sorry, although some people might be offended, I'd rather hear what people really are saying.

[bearfartinthewoods]

176. so, after you were aware that some of the guys at work

don't like the term AA, do you insist on using it in conversation with them or do you respect their feelings?

[pmbryant]

7. It seemed pretty clear to me

We indeed have the "right" to label people as we see fit, but if we seek not to gratuitously offend people (as one would assume most progressives would not want to needlessly offend people), we should be careful to use terms that are not inherently offensive. Even better, we should use terms that are respectful.

That's my understanding of cally's point, and it is a very good one.

:-)

--Peter

[mmm]

11. Great. Give me some examples.

[pmbryant]

14. I think you can think of your own examples

I'm not sure what term specifically prompted this thread, but there are numerous disrespectful terms for people of all types. I'm sure you are familiar with many of them. I'm not going to bring them up myself.

--Peter

[sangha]

40. That's very disingenous

Is it really that much of a mystery? Do you really need all the inappropriate ethnic, racist, and sexist slurs listed before you can understand?

And if you don't know if a certain word will offend some specific individual, here's an idea - use a different word! One that you know is considered appropriate in all settings. Use the word you'd use in front of you child (if you have one)

[Gman]

2. I come from organized labor

when necessary, we kick ass then ask questions later.

[4morewars]

3. maybe they are not really "progressive" ? n/t

[sendero]

5. Are you equating...

... something like "bitch" with a racial epithet? Because if you are, that is moronic.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

8. I don't think she's equating them except to the degree that both are

demeaning..and that is valid.

[sendero]

13. We've had this argument before...

... so neither of us is likely to change their mind. But I emphatically disagree and claim there is simply little comparison to a racial epithet and a gender-specific one.

Saying you should not use a word because it offends *some* people is tantamount to censoring political expression. If I say "Bush is a moron", that is bound to offend someone. Too bad.

[bloom]

21. It seems to me

that it is about - can you insult your political rivals without insulting other people who might share common traits with the person such as their gender or race.

I think people could very easily if they wanted. Why insult people who you don't intend to insult? Why not target your words? Why is that a problem?

[cally]

23. Exactly

Thanks for making my point better than I did.

[sendero]

28. It is not my intention to ...

... insult anyone. Believe me, if that were my goal I'm quite accomplished at it :)

On the other hand, I believe this slavish oversensitivity to speech has HURT the liberal/progressive cause a lot.

Because a valid complaint the assclowns like Limbaugh have made against us and made stick is this very thing.

The fact is, in a personal setting I would probably not use a word that I knew someone else would find offensive. Regardless of how I sound here, I try to be a thoughtful and considerate person. But I have a particular beef with people who think that any word that can be demeaning to a female is off limits, while any word demeaning to a male is simply descriptive. They are both descriptive, and if you've never met a bitch you should get out more.

[cally]

Then why use the term?

I agree with you about the offensive terms to males. I don't use them because friends told me they were offensive. So why use offensive terms about females.

I do know that women and men are sometimes horrible. I refuse to engage in gender bashing.

[cally]

9. It is a matter of respect

and no not all epithets are the same. They are not all equal but the concept is the same. It is a matter of respect and trying to understand others.

[sendero]

15. Why must...

... "understanding others" always involve not saying words that bother *some* people. I still claim the objection to words like "bitch" are hypocritical because the complainers rarely feel the need to censor the word "bastard". They think "prick" is fine, but "c*nt" is just over the line.

It is 100% pure bullsh*t and I'm not having any of it.

[cally]

18. By my standards,

I don't use prick, cunt, bastard or bitch because folks have told me they were offended. Yes, I complain about the word bitch because I do think it's offensive in most instances.

[TinaTyson]

27. Can't remember the last time I heard someone called a bastard.

Usually it is 'son of a bitch'.

Can't say I recall many "media gigolos" either.

[DemBones DemBones]

142. So true, Tina, so true. nt

[fearnobush]

12. I never saw any racial stuff, if thats what you mean, but I believe

to say fuck and be proud of it is indeed a progressive ideal...It's about free speech. Yes there is a time and a place to say fuck, but to levy 250,000 fines with no representation is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Calling a fellow human a nigger etc. is 1000 times worse that saying fuck. I grow real tired of seeing such good and Godly right wingers damn an entire group of people with such speech as they entire their all white church's and pray to God to clean up TV and Radio from saying fuck.

[Cleita]

17. Language is so deceptive.

There is a main boulevard in Los Angeles that in Chile means prick. Spanish speaking Angelenos see nothing dirty in it. We Chileans always laughed behind our hands and called Pico Boulevard, THE boulevard and never said it out loud.

I have spoken to many Spanish speaking people from many countries and there were always words that were perfectly acceptable in some nations that weren't in others.

Now moving on to English, there are so many dialects in England, and they have their insulting words too. Let's move into America now and between the south, the west and there are so many pockets of ethnicity that there are an abundance of words to insult everyone.

No one can really be politically correct.

[cally]

20. Noone is always politically correct

but if you told me I used an offensive term, I wouldn't use it. I never knew that about Pico Boulevard. How will I ever ask directions there with a straight face..LOL.

[slinkerwink]

19. good post!

:toast:

[slinkerwink]

24. BITCH! FAGGOT! WHORE! SLUT! CUNT! DYKE!

How did you feel hearing those words in my title? Not good, I'd bet. All of those words are meant to put down minorities, and "bitch" is one of those words. It's frightening to see so-called "progressives" here using that word "bitch"...

[maggrwaggr]

31. oh, so is THAT what we're talking about here? Bitch?

thank god somebody said it outloud.

well bitch bitch bitch about the term bitch.

Look at it this way. If I use the term bitch, I INTEND disrespect.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. But by so doing you disrespect ALL women

That's the point.

[Djinn]

51. much like when racist nitwits

use racial slurs - they're not usually saying "I justs lurvs them niggers"

bloody hell when muddleoftheroad and I agree on an issue things are getting weird here in DU

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. LOL

Honestly, most of the time I only chime in when I feel like arguing. So I pass on the "me too" posts. Otherwise I'd just look too freakin' agreeable.

But crap like this amazes me.

So, let me elaborate on your comment. Anyone who insists on using anti-women terms like those discussed here is being less progressive than I ever manage -- even on a bad day.

How's that?

[Djinn]

83. as for me

I often post in the "me too" vein just so I don't come across as a total obstinate cow all the time!

[muriel_volestrangler]

174. Shouldn't that be

"obstinate ox"? Let's keep it gender neutral, please ... ;-)

[Muddleoftheroad]

178. Yeah, but that's no fun

:)

[Skittles]

38. whore is very much a neutral term here

Bush whore, corporate whore, media whore

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Nope, but some seem to think so

It still conjures up an image that is entirely female and derogatory.

[Skittles]

76. huh

I've always thought of it as neutral. Now SLUT - well, that tends to be derogatory towards females although I just called someone's cat a love slut. :D

[Muddleoftheroad]

179. I don't know any women who view "whore" as gender neutral

[Skittles]

195. come on

are you talking about outside the DU? Maybe. But here, whore is very much neutral.

[Muddleoftheroad]

201. Yes, outside DU, where the real world lives

And claiming here it is gender neutral ignores that reality.

[Skittles]

202. well then

I absolutely agree. But the whole subject DOES refer to language in the DU.

[Muddleoftheroad]

205. Not every person on DU is a DU veteran

So if a word or phrase is offensive in the outside world, we should excise it here.

[Skittles]

208. I disagree

they need to get acclimated. Corporate whore, media whore, Bush whore - THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE.

[Skittles]

215. also, look up the word whore in the dictionary

it will refer to the word prositute - look up that one - it is NOT GENDER SPECIFIC. Bitch - that IS technically gender specific.

[formernaderite]

100. What? Bitch refers to minorities?

What planet do you live on? I have to tell you...my wife is proud of being a very smart bitch. SHE refers to herself as one...I on the other hand, find the term distasteful. We happen to be one progressive family. Words that have been used as slurs, can also be great sources of power....lighten up.

[bearfartinthewoods]

180. she gets to refer to herself as a bitch but

if a person passed her on the street and called her bitch, would that be a different story? if a clerk in a store called he that or a server in a restaurant? would she consider it an inappropriate use,
connected to her pride in her intelligence?.

people don't use the term to show respect. we're asking for DUers to respect each other, that's all.

[July]

213. To accept your conclusion, I must accept your premise first.

But if I disagree with your premise, I may make a different choice than you would.

In other words, if I do not view the use of "bitch" as a put-down of all women (your premise), I cannot conclude that I am putting down all women if I say it. In addition, I must have another premise when yours is not one I share. I think that this is a difference that cannot be resolved. It is analogous to the difference between those who believe abortion is murder and conclude that it must therefore be outlawed and those who do not believe abortion is murder and draw different conclusions about what actions, if any, are necessary. (I am talking about the quality of the difference, and I am NOT trying to equate those opposed to "bitch" and those against abortion; there is no causal link between the two groups, even if there is overlap.)

I've never been called a bitch (I'm female), except perhaps by my sister, talking in jest, nor have I directly called someone a bitch, except perhaps my sister, when talking in jest. I have referred to certain women in certain circumstances as bitches when talking ABOUT them. When I use the word, I am talking about a certain type of behavior (discussed very well by another poster) -- not weakness, which is how you have described its meaning, but aggressive nastiness. I wouldn't use it to describe the same behavior in a man; I'd probably call "prick" its equivalent for males. I do use it for women rather than men, as I use "prick" for men rather than women, but neither applies to all members of the sex I'm referring to.

As a woman who describes herself as a liberal and a feminist, I certainly don't view all women as aggressively nasty, nor do I think that only men are "allowed" to be aggressive OR nasty. If I use the word "bitch" to describe someone, I'm criticizing her for an inappropriate, over-the-top, unpleasant behavior. The same woman, being aggressive for a good reason, or even nasty (a behavior I usually abhor in all people), would not be a bitch in my book.

But if I said "bitch" in your presence, you, with different premises from mine, might feel offended. You might even tell me that you are offended. What should my response be? I don't want to offend you or anyone else. Nonetheless, I don't feel I am casting aspersions on myself and other women if I say "bitch." Nor am I saying it in ignorance of the issues you raise. But I do disagree with your point of view. And I am a member of the group that you tell me is being put down by the use of that word. Aren't both of our conclusions legitimate for us as individuals?

Again, I view this as an issue that cannot be resolved readily. It has brought to mind a disagreement I had with my mother several years ago. I visited my Catholic mother during Lent, and one day, when she was out of the house, had lunch with her husband, my husband, and my children. We had hamburgers. It was Good Friday (none of us, including my stepfather, realized what day it was, but that is beside the point). My mother became incensed to learn that we had eaten meat in HER house, on GOOD FRIDAY. None of us who had hamburgers shared my mother's religious views, nor did we feel we were doing anything wrong. Yet my mother wanted us to direct our behavior according to her premises. That is unacceptable to me. I would have happily eaten fish or anything else that my mother set before me when I visited her, but my eating hamburgers was not an offense against her. Even if I had realized it was Good Friday, it would not have been an offense against her, since I don't share her beliefs on the issue and was not trying to do some in-your-face meat-eating to make a point about her beliefs. It simply was not wrong to me, and I feel the same way about use of the word bitch. Words, including "bitch," may be offensive to me sometimes, but I simply cannot agree that this word is always and everywhere a generalizing put-down of women as a group; IF I agreed with that view, I would never say it.

[JAbuchan08]

239. I and other posters have been making this same point for a long time

thank you so much.

[DemLikr]

227. It turns me on when you talk like that. Please continue. n/t

[democracyindanger]

25. Okay, so

if we stop using slang terms that are synonymous with female genitalia, then that makes slang concerning male genitalia off limits as well? No 'dick,' 'dickhead,' 'he/she has balls,' etc?

Awesome. I've been waiting to increase my use of 'doody head.' Please ask the admins to provide a list of acceptable epithets.

[slinkerwink]

30. we can use gender-neutral insults like asshole

or colon bag. I'm sure that you can think of others that doesn't involve gender.

[maggrwaggr]

32. sorry, but a woman can be a bitch and a man can be an asshole

what's so offensive about that?

I've known plenty of both.

Hell, I can be an asshole when my blood sugar drops. I'll freely admit it.

[slinkerwink]

33. the word "bitch" is directed at the female gender, and meant to put down

women. and "asshole" is a gender-neutral term, and therefore is not the language of oppression.

[sendero]

34. Wrong...

.. it is meant to put down a specific woman. The fact you interpret it to be a general insult to all women says more about you than it does the term.

[cally]

35. I disagree

Using the term bitch is putdown to us all. That's the way I see it. You may not intend it that way but please acknowledge that several of us on this thread see it as an insult to women. I would guess that many more women see it the way I do.

[sendero]

45. Well......

.... I don't take the terms "bastard" or "prick" as a personal attack. I really, when using the term "bitch", am probably not talking about you. I really would not want you to feel that I am. You are not the entire female population, you are just you.

I feel strongly about this issue and I have tried to be civil, but please accept my apologies if I have failed at that - I've said what I wanted to say now and so I'm shutting up on this thread :)

[cally]

53. I appreciate your input

I wanted a discussion about this and you helped. ;-) :hug:

[pnb]

193. Doesn't much matter though

A term is considered insulting, in my opinion, based on the intention of the user, not the interpretation of the listener. A person can't dismiss what another really means just based on what that first person thinks they might mean.

Using the term "bitch" as an example, if I use it, it will be to describe the specific person I'm referring to (and the term is also often used about men). I won't refer to women in general as bitches because that is a totally different usage and meaning.

Just because you choose to interpret that differently does not change my meanings one iota.

[slinkerwink]

37. no----it is a gender-specific insult

like the word "faggot" which is for gays, "nigger" for african-americans, and "chinks" for chinese-americans, "wetbacks" for mexican-americans.

[rumguy]

41. no it isn't - it can be used in many contexts

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Words

Words that hurt others hurt them whether you want to admit it or not. The question is, once you realize that, do you alter your behavior or do you continue it?

[rumguy]

52. You post is bitchin' man

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Despite the attempt at humor

This is a serious issue. Perhaps for those of us who are constantly on the receiving end of hate words in our culture, it is easier to understand.

[cally]

56. Yep

If someone tells you that your words offend them, then why continue?

[truthspeaker]

177. depends if the offense is justified or not

[DrWeird]

47. But "asshole" is used specifically for men.

When have you ever heard a woman called an asshole?

Or dickhead?

[slinkerwink]

49. dickhead is a gender-specific insult, and asshole is not

I have called women and men "assholes" on a few occasions.

[DrWeird]

59. I've never heard a woman called an "asshole"

Or a "jerk" for that matter. I have no problem with the word "dickhead" etc. While "dickhead" and "bitch" are gender specific, I fail to see how that makes them automatically sexist.

[slinkerwink]

60. because those terms are meant to put down people due to their gender

and it reinforces the male attitude towards women.

[DrWeird]

62. Mmm, no..

it's meant to put them down because of their attitude. When you call somebody a jerk you're not doing so to put down men.

[slinkerwink]

66. no.....bitch is meant for women when they're being assertive or

say something that men don't want to hear. What about african-americans, when they talk back, are you going to say "what an uppity n*gger?" That's precisely what I mean. Those words like "chink" "whore" "slut" "faggot" "wetback" "spic" "spade" are meant to put down minorities.

[DrWeird]

67. Sometimes.

I use it when a woman is acting like a female jerk.

[slinkerwink]

69. think harder and just use "jerk" instead

use non-gender-specific words, and there are plenty of colorful words to use that.

[DrWeird]

72. "Jerk" is gender specific.

It's kind of like "bimbo." It's only used for one gender specifically.

[slinkerwink]

73. no, it's not.

Main Entry: 1jerk
Pronunciation: 'j&rk
Function: noun
Etymology: probably alteration of yerk
1 : a single quick motion of short duration
2 a : jolting, bouncing, or thrusting motions b : a tendency to produce spasmodic motions
3 a : an involuntary spasmodic muscular movement due to reflex action b plural : involuntary twitchings due to nervous excitement
4 : an annoyingly stupid or foolish person
5 : the pushing of a weight from shoulder height to a position overhead in weight lifting

[DrWeird]

80. 6: male masturbation.

Irregardless it's used specifically for men. "Bitch" is used more for males that "jerk" is for females.

[slinkerwink]

82. there's no 6, and male masturbation is called "jerking off"

not "jerk."

[4morewars]

113. regardless

the word is regardless !!!!

[Guaranteed]

155. And I believe a man that does that is called an "asshole"...

Why aren't men particularly offended by that term?

[slinkerwink]

156. because "asshole" is a gender-neutral term because we all have one

[Guaranteed]

164. Men get called bitches, too.

On edit: And I've never heard a woman get called an asshole.

[slinkerwink]

168. it's not okay to call men bitches or faggots

just because they're perceived to be sensitive (which is a weak feminine trait viewed by conservatives and macho men)

[Guaranteed]

173. Again, you don't have a problem with the words,

you have a problem with the association of weakness with women. And, again, that's a separate issue. FURTHER, again, by your logic it wouldn't even be alright to call anyone weak, simply because it's associated with women.

[slinkerwink]

175. no, I have a problem with gender-specific insults like "bitch" or "cunt"

[Guaranteed]

236. Well, that's what your problem is.

You have problems with insults that refer to a specific gender (and bitch doesn't). WHY?

What about "dickhead" and "prick?" Do you have a problem with those, too, just because they refer to the male appendage? Who cares?

AGAIN, what you SHOULD BE having a problem with are words that put people down SPECIFICALLY FOR BEING A MEMBER OF A DEMOGRAPHIC such as black people or homosexuals, or WOMEN. Here's a hint: try thinking of words that put women down JUST for being women- then you'll find your culprit.

[pnb]

198. How is it that you know this?

How is that you know exactly what a person means in these situations? You are claiming that whatever usage a person intends, they are really saying something different...and you base this on your interpretation without taking into consideration the interpretion of the person actually using the word.

All sorts of wrong.

[slinkerwink]

203. here...

Even when a male is referred to as a "bastard" or "sonofabitch," the insult does not wound as deeply when a female is called a "bitch." For a male, the insult is an indirect attack on his mother, rather than a direct attack on his masculinity, and for a female, the implication is that she is somehow less than female---that she has unladylike qualities.

For instance, to refer to a man as a "bitch" is to emasculate him, in the sense he has allowed another person to dominate him. To say that "life is a bitch" or that "traffic is a bitch" means that it is unpleasant and probably beyond one's control, like an uncontrollable woman. When one "bitches," one is whining or nagging, which are characteristics of the female who is called a "bitch."

[Ladyhawk]

48. One of the few times I was called a bitch, I was glad.

I was stopping child abuse in progress and the abusive mother called me a bitch. Big whoop. It was a compliment.

[cally]

61. I once said that

in a very similar circumstance. I now realize that by accepting the bitch word in some venues than I allow it in others. We can't have it all ways. It's insulting.

[bearfartinthewoods]

184. wouldn't it be ironic if th manner in which she was abusing her

child was by calling her a bitch?

[sangha]

50. Can't you be a little creative

If your goal is to demonstrate your disrespect, maybe you should consider finding a more creative and original way to do so. Bitch is taking the easy way out. Find something witty and intelligent, instead of the high-schoolers version of "Doo-doo head"

[bearfartinthewoods]

181. how did it get to be an insult?

because it comes from the time when a man owned a woman like he owned his dogs. the females of both were bitches...breeders.

so a term that insults a woman because she's female and valued primarily for her breeding capacity is not a general insult to women?

[LandOLincoln]

65. Sorry. I'm a bitch and damned proud of it. And count me as one of those

who's fed up to HERE with some of the idiocies of the humorless PC police.

African-American? As someone recently pointed out, Theresa Heinz Kerry is African-American because she was born in Mozambique--just as anyone who was born in the USA is a native American.

& I've not spoken to any of my American Indian co-workers about it, but I understand there's a movement afoot to take back that term and dump "Native American" for the precise reason stated above.

On edit: Oh yeah--I'm a proud Liberal as well, and regard to term "Progressive" as a caving in to the Right's derogation of the L word. So there.



"Sometimes being a bitch is all a woman has to hold on to."
--Dolores Claiborne

[slinkerwink]

68. it's okay for minorities to "own" the words of hate because it

helps lessen the hurt and damage of those words against them. That's why African-Americans call themselves "niggas," and why Chinese-Americans joke about being "chinks" and Mexican-Americans about being "dirty rice" or "spics" or "wetbacks." It's okay for the disempowered to own those "words" so I have nothing against women or minorities who "own" those words.

[cally]

74. Umm, yes

Using bitch as a term of empowerment is common. But when you look at it, it's used to justify all those who have called us bitches because we are assertive. Take power in your assertiveness but not in the demeaning term.

[slinkerwink]

78. exactly....

[LandOLincoln]

77. Ah. Thank you SO much for explaining that to me.

oh yeah--/sarcasm

[bearfartinthewoods]

182. if you have a daughter...

how would you feel if her date said, "get a move on bitch, we're gonna be late"?

do you think that would make her feel "proud".

[RetroLounge]

221. Thank you thank you thank you

prepare to be flamed by the PC Police.

You know, the ones who know that EVERY WOMAN ON THE PLANET JUST FELT INSULTED because someone said the word "bitch."

RL

[DemLikr]

228. Words evolve and change over time. Bitch used to refer to female dogs

Your incessant preaching on this topic is also one form of the language of oppression.

[democracyindanger]

55. Gloria Steinem

is not a pussy. Condoleeza Rice, on the other hand, is. Karen Hughes? Not a pussy. But a bitch. Margaret Cho a bitch? Yes, absolutely. And I love her for it.

It's all context.

As Lenny Bruce so wisely said, "Take away the right to say 'fuck' and you take away the right to say 'fuck the government.'"

Will I try to be more aware of the sensitivity you and others have about the use of certain words? Sure--although I usually am, by nature. But prohibit the use of them? I can't be in favor of that.

I'm betting that the admins will crack down on this, which is disappointing because it falls into the out-of-control-PC slander that the left is so often hit with. But if there are those who are so sensitive that they cannot discern when they should take something personally and when they shouldn't, then I guess we have to accomodate them.

[rumguy]

71. amen, very insightful, everyone should read this post!

[bearfartinthewoods]

183. then petition ADMIN to do away with the prohibition against nigger.

the word nigger used to be used much more freely among white people than it is now. no law was passed. people, both white and black began speaking out against it's use. we know the word bitch is commonly used now. i'm working toward a time when it's use will be as rare as other insensitive words are now.

[democracyindanger]

223. nonsensical comparison

And you used the word twice, but your post hasn't been deleted.

C-O-N-T-E-X-T.

[bearfartinthewoods]

238. context ......exactly...

i used it to discuss it's use, not to insult or demean people the way bitch is used her so frequently. if my post read simply, Colin Powell is a nigger, i doubt it would last long.

[Guaranteed]

235. NOT THE SAME THING. nt

[troublemaker]

44. We're poised on the brink of fascism

...in this country yet some of us seem to have learned nothing in the 1990s.

Political correctness is violence.

Hasn't 3+ years of GWB taught everyone how deeply OFFENSIVE it is to be told what to think or what to say? I don't know if I'm a progressive, but if it involves reshaping humanity through pressure on the language count me out. (The appendix to 1984 is instructive on this topic.)

I understand that calling everyone a bitch is somewhat derogatory to women in general but without "bitch" the Dave Chapelle Show would only be five minutes long, and I love that show.

Calling Bush is a cowboy is derogatory to men in general. Doesn't that term impugn masculinity as violent and thoughtless? I'm obviously not complaining about "cowboy" or "fratboy" or "macho," just noting that the sexes are different and men and women have their own ways to be horrible. Hughes' red-faced reflexive hostile lying and contempt for people aren't traits common to most women, but Hughes is indeed a bitch. ("big-time").

And without "bitch" what the hell do we call Barbara Bush? her picture is in the dictionary under BITCH ("rhymes with witch").

Condi Rice, on the other hand, is not a bitch. She's a bulimic race traitor as brittle as Katherine Hepburn in SUDDENLY LAST SUMMER and shouldn't be working within ten miles of national security, but she's too tremulously self-hating to be a proper bitch. Rumsfeld is the horrible old man who poisons neighborhood cats. Dick Cheny is a Nazi. Laura Bush is a vicious simp. Wolfowitz has sold out his country to Israel--is that anti-Semitic? Maybe, but he has. I'm sorry if Wolfie's behavior casts aspersions on Jewish people in general, but the dude really has sold us out every way he can think of. Colin Powell is different; he's a self-promoting coward but doesn't strike me a race-traitor, so I feel no need to get racial in describing him.

Karen Hughes' hideous scene is feminine--she's like a lioness. Her amoral loyalty is maternal. So she gets the tag.

Politics ain't bean-bag.

[Djinn]

54. who's "telling you what to say"

we're trying to explain why people find it unneccesary, sexist and offensive.

Say whatever you like, no-one's actually going to come and sew your lips together...the people here complaining about PC or the language police are using the EXACT same arguments you'll get from a freeper when he wants to call all gay people fags or all Mexicans wetbacks...no-one's ever going to physically stiop him/her from saying that but they may just point out that by doing so you come across as boorish, ignorant, bigoted and seriously uncreative.

[cally]

58. Thanks..nt

.

[troublemaker]

70. I don't recognize the distinction

Nobody has ever beaten me to the ground for criticizing the Iraq War but I think it's nonetheless fair to say we were all "told" what to say or not say.

Since 9/11 I have watched what I said in public as have many of us here. Partly I didn't want to hurt people's feeling who had strong neurotic reactions to 9/11. Their pain is real even if stupid. Mostly, though, I didn't want to get into shit with people, didn't want my food spit in by servers, etc.

That's intimidation, but I admit that nobody sewed my lips shut.

Politely pointing out that something offends a person is a passive-aggressive gesture, little different from walking over to your neighbor's house and explaining to him (politely) that you would prefer that he recycle. And perhaps some people are comfortable doing things like that that, which disturbs me.

[Djinn]

75. so you can be offended

that someone would be "passive aggresive" but it's PC for people to be offended by "bitch"

Personally I did get in argument with people after 9/11 (especially in Australia it was kind of disturbing for people to act like this was the first act of terrorism EVER perpetrated and that an attack on the US was somehow also an attack on ALL of us??) like I said before you can say whatever you want but there are times people might take you to task about it...I find reasoned discussion works best - sometimes you have to give up, agreeing to disagree and occasionally you may depending on your personality smack them in the mouth (joking!) but whatever YOU have a right to say someone else has the right to call you on it.

I just find it really weird some people find OBJECTING to the word bitch MORE offensive and uncomfortable than people actually using it

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

91. I used to put my whole heart and soul into these threads..now

I look for posts like yours and just feel a little better about society in general.

The same people who don't want to BOTHER looking at IF AND WHY language matters should then NOT question how it is that Bush can claim they have WMD's, go to war and then ever so slightly tweak it to WMD PROGRAMS and still pass muster with so much of society.

People just don't want to consider that words really DO CREATE the world they live into......

if in one's language...there are bitches, cunts, faggots and niggers..then when one looks out in life...one will see bitches, cunts, faggots and niggers..

If in one's language, one has eliminated those terms..when one looks out in life they will see something quite distinct from the above.

[slinkerwink]

101. good post! bravo!

:toast:

[G_j]

110. so true

words have power. Certain words have accumulated negative 'baggage' because they have been used to hurt people. It is not limiting 'free speech' to make an effort to understand why a word may offend another. It is not asking too much to ask people to consider these things and make an attempt to treat others with kindness and respect. It's not about an abtract argument about what is PC or not. It's about listening to others and being aware of how they are effected by the language we use. Nobody is giving up their right to free speech by making an attempt to be considerate to a fellow human being.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

114. It's basically asking people to think

and in response one gets a knee jerk reaction which is tantamount to saying, "I don't wanna and you can't make me." Sooooo...no need to wonder how we got to where we are today...resist thinking about the consequences of your actions long enough and you will be surrounded by all sorts of thoughtlessness..not just your own favorite brand.

No.Mystery.There.

[G_j]

120. sometimes I think

the human race is 'devolving' Is it just America?
Perhaps I'm just naive.
a line from a favorite song comes to mind,
"oh oh, what I want to know, is are you kind?"

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. We're always either expanding or contracting

Evolving or devolving..funny...I was going through some old books in the garage this weekend and came across my tattered copy of the Hundredth Monkey...

Time to go wash some sweet potatos.

[G_j]

132. I love that story

I often bring it to mind when I'm feeling the human race is hopeless.
Thanks for the reminder! :-)

[bearfartinthewoods]

185. .......

:toast:

[RetroLounge]

224. Crappola on a stick

If one uses those words in every other sentence, then yes, that may be correct.

But if one very rarely uses the word, and then sees Karen Hughes on TV and says "What a bitch", then when one looks out in life, they see Karen Hughes, a bitch. And the entire world of women is no worse off for it. Except the ones who have other issues that have nothing to do with language but manifest themselves with PC Whinning.

any other terms you wish to eliminate?

RL

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

229. I said nothing of the sort. I asked people to think. I guess that's

offensive too.

Karen Hughes is a liar and that more accurately describes her exact offense. I find it humorous that the same people who BITCH (note the NON CONTEXTUALLY DEMEANING USAGE OF THE WORD)about accuracy in media don't want to provide any when they editorialize.

[bearfartinthewoods]

241. just had to kick this post again

[troublemaker]

104. It's the coercive mindset I object to

re: I just find it really weird some people find OBJECTING to the word bitch MORE offensive and uncomfortable than people actually using it

I find people objecting to abortion more offensive than people actually having abortions.

[Djinn]

242. not really the same thing

"I find people objecting to abortion more offensive than people actually having abortions."

if people manage to outlaw abortion then women will DIE - IF saying bitch was outlawed (and I hasten to add AGAIN that nobody has actually even suggested this) then you'd just have to find another word. See not the same argument at all.

Besides I have no problem at all to people who object to abortions that's their right - they only piss me off when they picket clinics, scream "slut/whore or BITCH" at women for going NEAR a clinic or shoot doctors - and again NO-ONE is doing that here - no-one will EVER come to you house and picket your use of the word Bitch - two totally and completely seperate arguments...nice try though

[rumguy]

57. that is a bitchin' post brother - seriously you hit it right on the head

[Selwynn]

144. See post #143.

[rumguy]

148. I'm sorry, I don't have the strength to discuss this right now

This whole topic has burned me out....

[thexanman]

79. Word

This becomes a really slippery slope. Doesn't calling someone a "dick" degrade men? Everyone has an asshole, so no one really gets upset over that term. Bottom line is that we're all slightly immature and like to call people euphemisms for private parts - just like we did back in 3rd grade.

Honestly, I think the whole PC movement is what damaged liberalism for the past few years. In order to be a liberal you have to make sure you won't offend ANYONE! EVER!

That all being said, it really bothers me when people use "retarded" as a derogatory term, and I think that just proves that people have to define for themselves what is or isn't offensive. And also recognize people's intent in the language they use.

[Sparkly]

86. Yeah

We'll know we've really evolved when words for body parts are no longer considered insults! (That'll be when "filth" refers to violence, not women's bodies.) I also agree that it's about the perceived intent.

[Ysabel]

88. what i think damaged libralism...

is that a lot of so called liberals sold the rest of us out and are letting the right define everything - even adopting their words and their attitudes - for instance - like using demeaming terms for other people...

[Ysabel]

92. well hell...

weird bugginess won't let me correct my typo...

[thexanman]

95. I'm sorry but not all liberals are

all about flowerpower and holding hands and getting along with everyone. It'd be great, but it's just not reality. Sometimes, an asshole's an asshole's an asshole and I call 'em like I see 'em. What am I supposed to call someone like Bush when I get fed up? A "stupid head"? Come on! This PC crap is why we're all perceived as simpering, incapable, and whiney.

Do you ever say "Jesus!" or "Goddamnit" or even "Oh my God"? Because that could easily be construed as offensive to a Christian.

What about calling people "dumb"? That word refers to someone who cannot speak (a disability!), so technically that might be offensive to someone with a disability.

What about "dork"? Dork=penis and penis=male genitals and we don't want to offend males by using their genitals in a derogatory fashion.

And the list goes on...

[Ysabel]

i think it would be great...

if everyone got along - but i don't really believe that you do - even though you said that - i mean - you kind of brushed the very idea right off again - didn't you...?

[thexanman]

107. Oh of course it would

A lot of things would be good. Universal health care would be good. Not gonna happen though. Not right now at least. Nothing wrong with being a realist.

[Selwynn]

147. These are not complicated questions...

...when you stop looking for absolute answers.

"Do you ever say "Jesus!" or "Goddamnit" or even "Oh my God"? Because that could easily be construed as offensive to a Christian."

It depends on the context. When I'm hagning with my friends I say a lot of things, some of which I'm sure would offend even people here, because I know it doesn't offend anyone I'm speaking with.

If however I knew for a fact that I was actively hurting the person I was speaking with and just continue to do so maliciously becuase I care more about my "right" to act like a fucking asshole than I do the happiness of the person I'm talking to, that's pretty sad.

"What about calling people "dumb"? That word refers to someone who cannot speak (a disability!), so technically that might be offensive to someone with a disability."

That's why these are not absolute questions. There are certainly many (if not most) times when saying something is "dumb" would not be a problem. But if I was standing face to face with someone and could see that any word I was saying was really causing emotional distress, I would certainly try to find away to avoid that if possible. Now, its not always possible, but the question is really one of attitude. Are you continuing to say something that deeply hurts a person you are speaking with becuase you just don't give a fuck or actively want to cause them pain? Well, then you're a dick.

"What about "dork"? Dork=penis and penis=male genitals and we don't want to offend males by using their genitals in a derogatory fashion."

I think you get the picture here - its all about context. There is no absolutely wrong word or words. There is nothing inherently wrong about "words." What makes words wrong is the intent and the context. And you can go on blah blah all you want about how unrealistic it is to advocate a world where good progressive minded folk actually show concern for the feelings of others and for healthy relationships between people. But the bottom line is that those hopes are at the absolute heart of liberal/progressive ideals. If you're not embracing a hunger and a desire to work toward those dreams, you're not embarcing much of antyhing worthwhile.

It's not too difficult to speak responsibily. And its not curtailing of my "freedom" when I personally choose not to say certain things out of kindness and concern for others.

[Djinn]

243. It's THIS simple really

"If however I knew for a fact that I was actively hurting the person I was speaking with and just continue to do so maliciously becuase I care more about my "right" to act like a fucking asshole than I do the happiness of the person I'm talking to, that's pretty sad."

Yeah Selwynn!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. AMEN!!!

I've very much appreciated your posts on this subject.

[Selwynn]

145. DING DING DING! WINNER.

[bearfartinthewoods]

190. when we lose the desire to respect people

we lose the soul of liberalism.

[troublemaker]

98. Right On

I use retard all the time but I've never referred to a woman as a cunt. Everyone has their own scene.

Besides, it's all in how you say it. I heard someone on C-SPAN call Kofi Annan a "Black Coward" once and it seemed so venomous I was shocked they didn't bleep it. Then I realized the caller hadn't said any forbidden word. She was, however, using "black" as an all purpose pejorative prefix for anything about a black person and as used it was no different from "nigger."

I often use "bitch" and "bitchy" to describe cattiness from either sex. (How could one describe KIDS IN THE HALL without the word?)

I don't mind using faggy or queer sometimes describing things so gay that "gay" just doesn't express it, but would never denigrate a straight person as queer or gay because that would imply there's something wrong with being gay.

I wouldn't use "retard" to describe retarded people (who would want to slur retarded people?) but I use it to refer to non-retarded people and policies that show below average cognitive activity. I guess what I'm saying is that there really is something negative (not evil, just negative) about mental retardation in that we wouldn't want a person with Down's syndrome to be president even if he was a great guy otherwise. It's like calling an umpire "blind," which wouldn't be at all amusing if the guy was actually blind. (I'm not blind, but if I was I hope I wouldn't feel qualified to be an umpire.)

God knows this stuff is tricky. I describe the general Republican mindset as "childish" but I don't mean children any ill will--that's funny to think about... are children offended when adults describe each other as childish? That said, children have certain deficiencies that make them unfit for high office or running their own cable news network.

Summation: I don't mean anyone here harm, but the Internet isn't like face-to-face. It's publishing. I wouldn't call almost any woman a bitch to her face any more than I would slap her. But words directed (potentially) to the entire world should not be as constrained as conversation--with the whole world to worry about someone out there will be legitimately offended or hurt by almost anything and most publishing would have to cease.

[G_j]

115. if any term is offensive to someone

they should feel free to say so. If the term "dick" bothers someone then lets talk about it. We don't need censorship we need people to discuss these things like adults and make an effort to understand each other. Lanquage has so much power in our world. Just by unthinkly repeating certain words that we have become accustomed to such as "retarded" we are often dragging ignorance from the past into the present even if we really "don't mean it"
Language is a major part of our evolution.

[troublemaker]

131. Dragging ignorance from the past?

How does "retarded" drag ignorance from the past into the present? Retarded people really are retarded! They are not just oppressed, but actually handicapped and are no less retarded if we call them mentally challenged or learning disabled.

"My son is learning disabled." Okay... is he dyslexic or autistic or hyperactive or retarded or what?

I've encountered people who object to "blind" and prefer "visually impaired." Why? Don't blind people know they are BLIND? Why imply that they are merely "impaired" as if they simply had bad night vision or something? Hell, I'm visually impaired.

This language nonsense hit a new low two weeks ago when Scarborough Country had two men debating whether or not Jesus was "African-American." I'm not making this up!

[G_j]

134. I'm referring to the way it is used in OTHER

contexts, such as "the Republicans are a bunch of retards"

Am I right to assume you have a problem with the term "African-American"? That happens to be how some people refer to themselves.

[troublemaker]

138. James Brown taught me to say Black!

Jesus was, whatever his skin color or heritage, not African American.

I don't use African American myself. I say Black. That's what black people asked to be called when I was growing up; a positive word, not a word like "nigger" that white people hung on black people. I'm from the Black Power generation. In fact, if I had called a black Friend African American in 1980 he would have taken it as snide or mocking.

If folks today want to say AfAm that's cool, but in practice even black leaders say "black" more often than "African American" because it's crisper.

Language shouldn't be a form of hazing.

If a word isn't an outright slur, why change it? I'm glad the NAACP has retained it's perfectly noble name, instead of becoming the NAAAAP.

[G_j]

140. I have no problem

with either term I was just trying to understand why you thought it was a PC problem. I take it you were saying that Jesus was not from Africa. understood..

[troublemaker]

196. No, No

I don't know if Jesus was African but I am SURE he wasn't an "American"

[DemBones DemBones]

166. The subset of people we classify as "mentally ratarded"

(and that phrase is no longer used by psychologists or educators) is completely different from the subset we call "learning disabled." It's possible to be both learning disabled and hyperactive, but one condition doesn't imply the other. ("My son is learning disabled" means just that. If you want to know more about this fictitious kid's disability ask his fictitious parent what type of difficulties he has, just as you would in real life.)

And there are many people who are "legally blind" but can see -- they have a significant "vision impairment." How much can the legally blind see? Not much, but it varies; you'd have to ask them individually.

In other words, you're confused about a lot of the terminology you're using.

Older terms such as retarded, crippled, blind, have unfortunately been used in insulting ways. That's why there's been a trend to use more clinical terms, not to disguise or deny disabilities.

[bearfartinthewoods]

191. the new terms are more descriptive and therefore more acurate

AND used to differentiate repectful discussion from third graders yelling re-tard or crip.

it's all about respect, imho.

[troublemaker]

199. blind is blind

re: "Older terms such as retarded, crippled, blind, have unfortunately been used in insulting ways"

And today's PC terms will come to be used in the same ways and then we'll have to change those, and so on. If someone says Bush is "challenged" or "special" it's just as mean as "retarded."

It's ironic that this better living through redefinition of common words stuff is popular here because we have all been victims of a really bad case of it---LIBERAL

"Liberal" is practically a curse word now in our culture and is used in insulting ways. Do we have to change it?

[Djinn]

244. just to be pedant

"Okay... is he dyslexic or autistic or hyperactive or retarded or what?"

if he has dyslexia then he has dyslexia, if he has autism he has autism - fistly people are not DEFINED by the disabilities they have or havn't so the PERSON comes first the disease second.

Secondly retardation is NOT an all purpose word to encompass all mental/intellectual/emotional or developmental impairment.

[Selwynn]

143. It's not ok to be told what to say, but its also not okay to hate.

It's not ok to be told what to do, but its also not ok to be so fucking maliciously self-centered that you have zero concern for how what you say or do effects those around you.

If I'm with my best mates in the privacy of my own home, and I ask a girl to hand me something and she jokingly tosses it at me, and I say "what a bitch" and laugh. Have I necessarily committed an unpardonable sin? No. It depends on the context. It depends on whether or not my intent was malicious, it depends on how the comments are received, etc. I may know my audience and know that the remark is understood and not considered hurtful or uncomfortable for anyone.

If I'm screaming at my six year old daughter repeatedly calling her a bitch that's a bit of a different context now isn't it? If I'm willfully deliberately calling someone a bitch because I know it hurts them, that's a bit different isn't it? If I'm causing someone distress and hurting them with my words, but I just don't give a fuck, that's a little different isn't it?

The truth is, words are just words. However, how YOU CHOOSE TO USE them is what should be scrutinized and there SHOULD be accountability from peers. I don't talk the same way around my very square mother that I talk around my very un-square friends. Why? Am I hiding from her? Not at all! She is under no illusion that I don't talk differently in different contexts. But I don't with her because I know that it makes her feel bad, she doesn't like it, it hurts her feelings and I love my Mom. There's no reason for me to cause her unneeded pain. Blah blah blah its my right this and that. Yes, ok, yes. It IS indeed your fucking right to act like a fucking JACKASS ASSHOLE. That's your right. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't identify a person acting like a fucking jackass asshole for exactly what they are.

So, the "PC" crowd is dead wrong when they try to come up with a list of words that should never be used in any context period. Of course, no one is really trying to do that, but that's what conservatives like to say. At the same time however, the "anti-PC" crowd is also dead wrong with they equate defending freedom of speech to mean that actlike like a fucking dick is cool. You do have freedom of speech as citizen. But as a decent human being, you have an obligation to wield that freedom with RESPONSIBILITY - responsibility includes care and concern for the well being of fellow human beings as well as yourself, and our goals should not be to hurt other people just because we aren't offended by the same things that offend them.

[G_j]

146. yes, and that is what I believe the original post was saying

Also, I'm unimpressed when I hear the RW PC spin repeated here. I don't buy it.
:argh:

[Selwynn]

149. What are you talking about?

"Also, I'm unimpressed when I hear the RW PC spin repeated here. I don't buy it."

I don't know what you're talking about? Maybe I need to read up the thread through your posts.

[G_j]

151. actually I was agreeing with you

you made a good point about how the RW portrays PC.
sorry If I wasn't clear. good post!

[Selwynn]

153. Ah ok - I just wanted to make sure I had you in context. :)

Cheers!

[troublemaker]

207. I'm not knocking 90% of your measured message, but...

"So, the "PC" crowd is dead wrong when they try to come up with a list of words that should never be used in any context period. Of course, no one is really trying to do that, but that's what conservatives like to say."

No. It's not just RW spin. This post says that "bitch" should never be used in any context period, at least not if one considers himself a progressive. If we shouldn't use "bitch" to describe Karen Hughes who the heck are we saving the word for?


"At the same time however, the "anti-PC" crowd is also dead wrong with they equate defending freedom of speech to mean that actlike like a fucking dick is cool."

Acting like a dick is not cool at all but it pales in uncoolness when compared to speech-codes and consensus-mongering.

Does "fucking dick" imply that anti-PC types are all men? (Kidding on the square)

[Selwynn]

210. Yes, it is just right wing spin.

There is no PC conspiracy. And the majority of people on the left who raised concerned questions about where, when and how it is approriate to use what kinds of language usually get shouting down by people calling them the language policy.

Also, I perhaps I didn't read the first half of the thread closely enough, so I'll like a clarification: to the orginal poster: ARE you saying that the word "bitch" can never be used in any situation and any context period? What about when me and my two female friends are sitting in my house joking around and one jokingly calls the other bitch knowing it will not offend or hurt her, and the other laughs about it and jokes back?

Context is everything. Context is everything. Context is everything. And 99% of the time, that is EXACLTY what the "PC" crowd is saying - think about how what you say might affect others. Then there is 1% of people who are saying that we should "ban" words or saying that words, and not the people and context behind them, are the problem. But the RW tries to make people believe that the 1% are actually 100% of the "PC" crowd and that the other 99% don't excist.

That is what I call conservative spin.

[RetroLounge]

222. "Politics ain't bean-bag."

Damn right!

and while the PC police are whinning about words, the Right Wing is getting away with actions...

RL

[Guaranteed]

81. Should we remove every term with any kind of negative connotation

from our vocabularies? Is that the issue here?

Are we just never allowed to say anything bad about anyone at all?

Can someone explain the difference between calling a woman a bitch, and calling the same woman "an extremely irritating, self-righteous loudmouth that I don't like being around"? Is that latter option "not alright" either?

[slinkerwink]

84. the latter is fine with me

If you think "bitch" is fine since it puts down women as a minority, then you should use "nigger" "faggot" "dyke" "cunt" "whore" and so forth, since they are used to put down minorities.

[rumguy]

85. the language police

if words are out and outright banned I will probably leave DU...

[cally]

93. Look at my original post

It's about respect. You don't have to get it or agree. I don't understand if someone tells you they are offended, then why use the term?

[rumguy]

96. I would never call someone a "bitch" on DU

However, to totally BAN IT is going way, way to far - that is what some are advocating, and it's crazy. At least that's how I see it. I guess I may not be a member of DU much longer. I went to college in the 90s at the height of PCness, I grew to dislike it, it's not an honest way of dealing with the world.

Here today we have someone screaming DYKE, BITCH, COCKSUCKER at those of us who don't want the word banned. That is exactly the kind of extremist crap that I won't tolerate. As a HUMAN BEING, I find that to be insulting.

I never called anyone a bitch, I just don't want it banned.

It's a matter of principle.

[cally]

112. K, can we agree that we will not use terms

that are offensive. I have no power to ban anything. I'm just asking my fellow DUers to show respect by not using terms that I find, and at least several others, offensive.

[Guaranteed]

102. It's also disrespectful to call someone a

"moron," a "jerk," an "asshole," a "piece of shit," a "fucker," or a "filthy animal." And you're right about all that- common decency and respect says that you don't go around calling people those names, or any names, for that matter. And here on DU we aren't allowed to call each OTHER those names- however, we are most certainly allowed to call Bush a MORON. Because that's what he is. :)

But I don't think that that's what PC people are trying to censor- the issue isn't respect, here. There's something more than that to words like "nigger" and "faggot"- some would say that in using those words you're offending a whole group of people.

I don't see that with the word "bitch"- or "moron," "jerk," "asshole," etc.

[G_j]

127. I guess it's just too simple

we aren't talking about a constitutional crisis here, but the everyday act of caring to understand why something may feel hurtful to another.

[Guaranteed]

133. That's entirely different.

Are you talking about name-calling, or are you talking about using terms that are deliberately derogatory to entire groups of people?

People are confusing two entirely different things here.

[G_j]

139. I was referring to

language that is derogatory to an entire group of people, although not everyone in that group may take offense. It becomes more personal when an idividual in that group raises objections and attempts to discuss their feelings about it with another individual.

[Guaranteed]

150. So you're saying that "bitch" fits into the same category

with "nigger" and "faggot"- deliberately derogatory terms offensive to an entire group of people (even though it's used in many different ways, in reference to many different types of people).

Alright, then, but you've opened the floodgates.

"Idiot" would then fit into that category, because it could be offensive to stupid people (and, yes, some people know that they're stupid), or people with low IQs (which I believe is the definition of the term "idiot") and therefore should never be used, in any sense. Also "dumbass," "moron," "stupid" itself (as in "Stupid nail!"), etc.

"Motherfucker," could, of course, be offensive to mothers and those who have sex with their mothers. Scratch that one too for all usage.

"Bastard" is offensive to those without fathers. "Loser" is offensive to anybody who lost any kind of game or job, ever. "Greedy-ass old miser" is offensive to rich people and the elderly, "traitor" is offensive to those lacking in loyalty, and "chickenhawk" is offensive to those against the Iraq war. Cut them all out of your vocabulary.

Going back to my first post, it does seem that the concept here is that negative connotations are not allowed in *descriptive* words (which sets these insults apart from words such as "nigger" and "faggot," which are simply derogatory to an entire demographic of people, stimulus aside) as long as there is anyone in that group of people that wouldn't want to be called that. That only leaves us with us such useful phrases as "You're bad," or "I don't like you"- phrases which refer to no group of people at all.

But George W. Bush isn't just "bad." He's an idiotic, greedy-ass, old miserly chickenhawk motherfucker.

To anyone who's offended by that, I'm just not referring to you.

[slinkerwink]

154. so it's okay for "bitch" (a sexist term) to stand instead of racist terms

[Guaranteed]

160. It is not a sexist term any more

than "asshole" is a sexist term when used to describe a man who is bossy- and acting like an asshole.

It's referring to a woman's behavior. It's a descriptive term that is used to express displeasure with and insults a woman's BEHAVIOR (just like "asshole" is used to express displeasure with a MAN'S bossy behavior, which PEOPLE DON'T LIKE EITHER), ***NOT with the fact that she's a WOMAN.*** A bitch is a bossy person who happens to be a woman, and an asshole is a bossy person that happens to be a man.

"Nigger" is derogatory to black people because it insults them for BEING BLACK. "Faggot" and "dyke" are derogatory toward homosexuals because it insults them for BEING HOMOSEXUAL. "Bitch" does NOT fit into the same category as those terms. It is NOT the same thing.

[slinkerwink]

167. "bitch" is derogatory to women because it insults them for being a woman

it is th same thing. "Asshole" is a gender-neutral term, not "bitch"

[Guaranteed]

169. Nope. It insults their behavior.

Calling someone a "bitch" is saying "I don't like the way you're acting because you're being self-righteous and haughty and bossy and who the hell do you think you are, anyway?" It's insulting someone who IS a woman, not for BEING a woman.

"Wench" is much closer to what you're looking for than "bitch" is.

And, like I said before, I've never heard a woman be called an asshole- it doesn't seem gender-neutral, to me. At the very least, men are called bitches much more often then women are called assholes, so at the very least "bitch" is more gender-neutral than "asshole."

[slinkerwink]

170. it is for being a woman.....

and "asshole" is gender-neutral, and I've been called an asshole. "bitch" is NOT gender-neutral because it means a weak woman, so a man being called like that would be like being called a "faggot."

[Guaranteed]

171. It's a weak woman, now?

I thought it was a bossy woman.

Not to REPEAT myself or anything, but the point that you're missing is that it's the behavior itself (the weakness, or bossiness, whichever you'd like to choose) that's being criticized, not the gender. Bossiness and weakness are undesirable characteristics for both sexes.

On edit: Your issue seems to be with femininity being associated with weakness. That's a separate issue- the association of the words come after the fact, and any word (like "weak") meaning the same thing will be associated with women. Is it not alright to call a man weak, then?

[slinkerwink]

186. it's not the behavior---it is a GENDER-specific insult!

[Guaranteed]

232. NOOOOOO it's NOOOOOOT....

MENNNNNN get called biiiiitches toooooo!!! THEREFORE, it's not gender specific....seeeeee?

[slinkerwink]

234. it IS because the word "bitch" means a weak woman or woman

and having men being called that is an attack on their masculinity.

[bearfartinthewoods]

187. if you listen to some of the women in the shelter

it's "shut the fuck up bitch before i give you something to cry about".

doesn't sound like a salutation for a strong powerful woman does it?

i'll bet that among the women reading this thread some of them have lived the scene i described above. the words bitch and whore are precursors.. words that usually precede a slap "bitch-slap"...warning words that mean violence is coming to waaay too many women.

the idea that DUers are so determined to use it here, when they know it upsets people is astounding to me.

[slinkerwink]

204. that's something I definitely agree with you on

[Djinn]

245. have you EVER had a problem with a man for being

"haughty" and "bossy"

they'd more ,ikely be considered "tough" and "uncompromising"

[G_j]

157. I don't know what is so complicated

about this. "Bitch" (aside from it's original meaning) has been traditionally used as a derogatory term towards women. Ok, maybe not all women, but certain women. It is clear that some women are offended by it because of the context of which it has been used in the past.

[rumguy]

158. snort gurgle

moan

[G_j]

163. may I quote you on that? n/t

[Guaranteed]

87. I disagree with you on exactly that point.

I don't believe you can lump in "bitch" with "nigger," "faggot," "dyke" etc. It has a very broad definition, and usage- it's not aimed at minorities, like you said. It's relied on much more heavily as a term descriptive of behavior, as in "She's acting like a bitch," (or HE...it gets used in describing men ALL the time) which is similar to "He's acting like a jerk" or "He's acting like an asshole." That's MUCH different than "He's acting like a nigger" or "He's acting like a faggot"- those don't make sense.

It's a put-down, but it's not derogatory in the same sense as nigger and faggot.

In other words, if you call a woman, or a man, a "bitch," you're NOT disrespecting ALL women because it's not used derogatorily in the same way as "nigger" is.

[rumguy]

89. it's also a verb too

[Sparkly]

90. Actually, women aren't a minority

we are the majority. That's beside the point, I know -- it's about empowerment. Still thought I'd mention it.

[Exultant Democracy]

103. So no double-plus un-good words

What about when the word is used to refer to non-humans. Dog come to mind at first (for obvious reasons) but what about the nail that is sticking out of the floor board that you cut your foot on. Can the nail be called a bitch?

[Guaranteed]

105. Well, I don't think that you can call it a

"nigger" or a "faggot"...that would be uncalled for.

But, yes, you can call it a "bitch." That's entirely appropriate. Sounds like a fucking bitch to me. LOL

Good point.

[Exultant Democracy]

108. I just wanted to say I'm glad you weighed in on this thread

It was in dire need of a more adult point of view.

[cally]

116. Seriously, why would you want to call someone

a fuckin bitch on this thread? I don't see the humor. I see the disrespect for those of us who find it offensive.

[Guaranteed]

119. We called a nail a fucking bitch.

And it WAS funny.

[cally]

122. To some

It was funny to you and whoever you were hanging with. Just remember that others find it abhorrent and if you want to build a progressive movement then maybe you shouldn't offend others. That's my idea but it seems it's not yours. Whatever.

[Guaranteed]

129. If we want to build a progressive movement, and I'm really

serious about this, then some shouldn't be so easily offended. This crap is tearing our own party apart. We're creating more problems than we're solving.

I honestly don't see anything offensive about calling a nail one has just stepped on a "fucking bitch." It seems entirely appropriate to me. When I step on a nail, it's a fucking bitch, and I'm not going to apologize for it.

It's not the same thing as calling someone a nigger or a faggot. They're very different words.

[bearfartinthewoods]

192. what other words do you use that people might find offenive?

list them or is it just bitch that you are defending?

[Guaranteed]

233. I don't know...why don't you go over all of the posts I've ever made

and tell me which words are okay for me to use and which aren't.

[Selwynn]

94. Without specific examples, and context, it's pointless to respond..

On principle I agree that in the most vague and broadest general terms, we shouldn't use derrogatory and demeaning language about other people.

But without any detail, I'm completely clueless as to what you refer. Therefore, I'm calling you out. I challenge your claim that "any" quote "progressive" inists on anything. Am I taking your subject line correctly by assming you are making the blanket generalization "why do ALL progressives" insist on x? If so, I'll dismiss the agrument right now, becuase not ALL "progressives" do any one thing. If you are not, and you are refering to specific individuals calling themselves progressives, then I'd need specific examples to respond.

But since you keep giving none, I counter-argue that there is no epidemic of demeaning/derrogatory language amoung most progressives. And so far, without any examples or evidence, my case is just as strong as yours.

[Guaranteed]

109. She's referring to this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1327090&mesg_id=1327090

[cally]

117. Most got it

I'm sorry you didn't.

[Selwynn]

141. Well, I don't get to read the boards 24/7

And after your first multiple responses were totally evasive, I got tired of trying to play "guess the problem." A simple link would have been called for.

That said, that thread disgusts me. And just reminds me that there are plenty of people here every bit as big of assholes as there are at free republic.

Have a nice day.

[Kenneth ken]

99. I agree with you

though, if your post is in regard to some specific postings around here today, I probably, thankfully missed them.

When I post here, I try to remember that the people who will read what I've written are (probably) comrades, if not true life friends, and my words ought to be considerate, respectful, and accomodating of a wide range of tastes, and sensibilities.

[troublemaker]

111. Libertarian vs. Authoritarian

It's interesting to see how these battle lines draw themselves. Both Democrats and Republicans find their paths to power impeded by the anti-authoritarian elements within each group--people who distrust the application of power, no matter how "good" the objective.

It's not enough to support Nazi rights because one fears a slippery slope. One must love human expression categorically--even Nazi expression. Not agree with, but love.

I don't like it when people call all powerful women bitches but I love it that they're obviously using what words they want to use.

I cannot count the number of times I've heard people defend pornography because banning it puts one on the slippery slope. Defending pornography that way is like objecting to lynching black people because it may spread to lynching white people. No matter how much one may dislike pornography I think they should love it...

[Ysabel]

125. power over...

any other is not something that i trust - nor do i want such power - i also do not want any other to have any such power over me - i would not ask for banning of any words - however - i do want others to know - that the use of demeaning words to describe people - bothers me...

edit - typo - and more better (heh) clarification...

[troublemaker]

136. Truce

I agree with you. What set me off in this original message was "why would any 'progressive'..." as if to be "progressive" one has to use a certain vocabulary.

That's the sort of thing conservatives do that drives me crazy, like FOX trying to change "suicide bombing" to "homicide bombing." I waited with interest for the next incident where only the bomber died. They didn't know what to say! "attempted homicide bombing?"

[rumguy]

118. Defintion of the word "bitch" - proof of different contextual meanings

I pulled this from an online dictionary...

bitch
n.

1. A female canine animal, especially a dog.
2. Offensive.
1. A woman considered to be spiteful or overbearing.
2. A lewd woman.
3. A man considered to be weak or contemptible.
3. Slang. A complaint.
4. Slang. Something very unpleasant or difficult.


v. Slang bitched, bitch·ing, bitch·es
v. intr.

To complain; grumble.

v. tr.

To botch; bungle. Often used with up.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bitch

[slinkerwink]

123. and "bitch" thrown at a man in the weak context because

no man wants to be seen as a weak woman.

[rumguy]

126. and if I said another male DUer were my "bitch" as a personal attacki

my post would get deleted...right?

that's not the issue...at least not as I see it - you want the word wiped from the website, right?

Or am I misunderstanding you? VelmaD in ATA seemed to imply that the word should never be used, perhaps that was in the heat of the moment, and she didn't really mean it quite that way...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

121. I read this entire thread, and I've...

...lost those five minutes forever.

[cally]

128. Your point is???

Language matters. Enter the debate instead of making snarky posts.

[mouse7]

130. Why don't we all just stop using language and moan and gurgle a lot

Every single word in every single language is offensive and demeaning to someone for some reason. Some poor bastard somewhere was beaten as a child while their parent doing the beating was screaming "THE THE THE THE THE THE" and they freak out when they hear it now.

[slinkerwink]

135. BITCH! FAGGOT! SLUT! WHORE! DYKE!

like hearing that, do you? When I scream those words, it doesn't make you feel good, right? That's because those words have the power to cause hate and harm against others. Those words are used to put down minorities, and women. That's why the word "bitch" is comparable to a racial epithet.

[mouse7]

137. *moan**gurgle**gurgle**moan**gurgle* n/t

[thexanman]

206. Bitch is NOT comparable to a racial slur

There's no way you're ever going to sell me (or most people) that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

188. do you use the word retard?

near she-bear's parents, there is a convenience store next to a center for developmentally challenged kids. some people call it "the 'tardmart'. IS THAT ok?

do you use the phrase 'jew him down' when you are talking about negotiating a better price on a deal.

do you use the term nigger toes for brazil nuts?

if not, why not since you seem to value your right to use all words?

[U4ikLefty]

152. Actions speak louder than words

The "progressive movement" needs all of you loud-mouths & tight-asses.

[Kanary]

159. Everything you've said is sooo on target

Unfortunately, I gave up a long time ago thinking that this was the place for "respect", or even common courtesy.

What you are talking about is just the common-sense way to make peace.

You're right, so keep true to your spirit!

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

161. Of course, but the issue is being confused

with racism and sexism, unfortunately.

[rumguy]

162. What about anal sex?

[Rex]

165. For some reason I don't really believe that you are 'shocked'

when a progressive (whatever you believe that to mean) uses derogatory language towards another person. Call it a gut feeling.

[Dr Fate]

172. Poopy Heads! You are ALL Poopy Heads!!

How is THAT for demeaning???

[EV1Ltimm]

189. well, why does a progressive not see that...

a word, in and of itself, is not offensive?

don't get me wrong, derogatory terms and racial epithets are so 1951, but i think most people aren't offended by the language, but more by the fact that someone is purposefully trying to insult them.

[Buns_of_Fire]

197. *sigh* America. A country divided by a common language.

[adriennel]

211. why must you generalize

and stereotype ALL progessives? jeez...

[slinkerwink]

212. have you read this thread for a better explanation?

[adriennel]

214. I didn't read all 200, no

your point is....???

[slinkerwink]

216. that your outrage is....fake.

[adriennel]

217. why?

[slinkerwink]

218. you complained about generalization without reading the entire

thread, to see what the original poster had to say.

[adriennel]

219. enlighten me

wouldn't want to be FAKE, considering the original poster used the term "all progressives" in the subject line. I was especially impressed with the "Poopyhead" post. I'll never post at DU again without reading every single item in the thread. my apologies for overlooking your insightful no text posts.

[slinkerwink]

220. just read the thread for yourself

:shrug:

[Ripley]

237. Just a quick correction...

It says "any" not "all" progressives.

[noiretextatique]

226. it's all about 'home training'

of the lack thereof. it should not be an imposition to be respectful with language, anymore than it is to be respectful with behavior. the problem is: some people feel entitled to be jerks. i see this everyday...when driving. when i used to commute to SF, there were predictable tie-ups at certain points every, single day. the problem...people refused to wait for their turn to merge, or people refused to let other people merge. the result of everyone feeling entitled to be a jerk...no one gets anywhere.
i see it in discussion here at the time...and it's not just using slurs and insults, it's being dismissive and insulting everytime certain topics arise.
it's tiresome, juvenile and boorish, and it reflects poorly on those who insist on proving that they lack home training.
reminds me of the 'pimp and whore' dance the sons and daughters of some of the wealthiest people in this country insisted on having at the college i attended. they couldn't understand why some people (mostly black and/or female) found that event (and everything that happened with it) offensive. why should they give a damn...the world, they had been told since they were born, belonged to them.
they were "entitled" to be boorish jerks.

[MadHound]

230. Its all about the context people

All about the context.

Black people use the term nigger amongst themselves, and occaisonaly among trusted, friendly mixed raced company. Is that wrong?

My wife belongs to an all female pool league team called the Bitches, with nicknames like Mean Bitch, Barbie Bitch, etc. Is that wrong?

There is a female real estate agent also here in town with the vanity plate of "BBIC", and it is well known to stand for Biggest Bitch In Columbia. Is that wrong?

There is the common slang, bitchin'. Quite complimentary in meaning, is it wrong?

Myself and others on this board use the term corporate whore frequently. We all know what is being referred to, and that the person is not neccesarily a woman, in fact, since politics is still unfortunately dominated by the male half of the species, it is usually being directed towards a guy. Is that wrong?

This list could go on and on, but the point that I'm trying to make here is that with this language, as with all language, it is all about the context. And while I believe that the PC cleansing of our language has helped in some ways, I also feel that it can be carried too far. The context of this language, as with all language has to be considered, always.

And if you wish to think of me being less of progressive because of my opinion, so be it. It won't be the worst thing I've ever been called.

[noiretextatique]

231. i think your opinion is very progressive, actually

i think you're right on about context. and i believe cally's point is about context as well. in a group where there is agreement, as in the cases you cited...no one will take offense. however there clearly isn't agreement here, because this issue keeps rearing its head every few weeks in one form or another, as has been the case since i signed on shortly after the coup.
the cure: self-regulation, from everyone.

[Nikia]

240. I agree

We should not use words on public boards, which encompasses a wide variety of people, that offend people, especially on the basis of group membership.
To me, "bitch" is offensive. I grew up in rural Ohio which was not exactly the most progressive area as far as gender equality and neither is rural Wisconsin where I live now. "Bitch" was and is used against me and other women that "didn't know their place." Maybe, in more enlightened areas, it is not used this way, but that was and is what it meant to me.
Just because a person may say they might not call all women "bitches" doesn't mean it isn't offensive. Perhaps blacks would not be offended if you called Condi Rice a "nigger" if you say that you don't hate blacks or call most blacks that only ones that exhibit certain traits. I use this only as an example. It is obviously wrong and offensive and that is my point.
What you say amongst people who you know would not be offended by your words is your own business. If you did use a word though that a friend said was offensive to him or her, wouldn't you refrain from using it around him or her? It's the respectful thing to do, one that won't alienate people.