BBV researchers...what do you make of this? Bev where are you?

[Andy_Stephenson]

Start off here : http://www.govtech.net/govcenter/solcenter/pdfs/GT_Microsoft5_03.pdf You can get to the link by typing “e-vote and microsoft” into google. It will be around the 5th result returned.




There is a list of partners of Microsoft on the page. Most of them are familiar. One company on the list I hadn't heard of was “Toolsmith Consulting”.




Go to the URL that Toolsmith Consulting provides: http://www.tool-smith.com/ToolsmithWeb/?t=products/liberty




You will see a page that talks about a product that Toolsmith has called “Liberty Election Suite”Liberty Election Suite”. Notice that there is a part of the system called “Ballot Assistant” that is a visual editor for ballots.




If you poke around on the site some you will see the following page: http://www.tool-smith.com/ToolsmithWeb/?t=services/success




Under the section “Election Systems and Government” you will see that Toolsmith has developed software for the second largest election system vendor. The actual name of the election vendor is not given.




Now let's look at the older versions of the website to see what other pieces of information we can get. Go to the website www.archive.org and type in the address http://www.tool-smith.com into the box next to the words “Wayback Machine”. The Wayback Machine is a site that keeps old copies of websites so a person can look back and see what a current web site used to look like. You can also get the links for the archived Toolsmith pages by clicking here: http://web.archive.org/web/*/tool-smith.com/*




Look thought all the results given. Pay special attention to the following results:




These two pages mention WinEDS. The second link mentions that Toolsmith wrote the ballot generation system and voting tabulation system for Sequoia Pacific. Sequoia Pacific is now known as Sequoia Voting Systems.




http://web.archive.org/web/20000226085058/http://tool-smith.com/




http://web.archive.org/web/20010305194441/www.tool-smith.com/ProductsandServices.htm




The following slides are from a conference that Sahar Thamry ([e-mail] )

attended in 1999. Pay attention to the slide titled “Part I - System Design” it details the development tools and technologies that Toolsmith uses. The items listed include Visio and Visual Basic.




http://web.archive.org/web/20010306081747/www.tool-smith.com/conference/index.htm




http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld001.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld002.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld003.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld004.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld005.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld006.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/20010309184556/http://www.tool-smith.com/conference/tsld007.htm








Now it's time for a little more research with google. Open up google and then click on the link that says “groups”. You can also click here: http://www.google.com/grphp Google Groups is a specialized search engine that searches posting on Internet Usenet discussion forum. Type in the phrase “@tool-smith.com” and press enter. This will return a list of Usenet posting made by employees of Toolsmith consulting. Take a look at all of them. You can see the names of the employees listed in the postings. You can also see that toolsmith was using Visio 2002 with VBA. Do a quick google search on “visio 2002 security exploits” and take a look at the results.




Here is a list of names of Toolsmith employees that was retrieved from posting on the web.







Bali Perhar ............................................................ [e-mail]
Svetlana Mikhalevskaya ....................................... [e-mail]
Aaron Karpel ...................................................... [e-mail]
Shahar Tamari ..................................................... [e-mail]

I noticed that Svetlana Mikhalevskaya worked with Visio.
This entry caught my eye. It contains an entry from a Diebold employee and a Toolsmith employee.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=35e1cafb.0%40news.GAIN-NY.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2540tool-smith.com%2B%252Bdiebold%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D35e1cafb.0%2540news.GAIN-NY.com%26rnum%3D1

Questions for Sequoia Voting Systems.
When did you inform the public that you do not write all of your own software? Please give details for each county that you have sold your software to.
What kind of security and background checks did you give to the employees of Toolsmith consulting that worked on your product? List details and results of the security background checks.
How many other private consultants or consulting companies have you hired?
What pieces of software have you had worked on by consultants? Please provide security and background clearances for all consultants.

I noticed that Sequoia uses a FTP component called CsCxFTP.ocx Anyone can download it here: http://www.vb-fun.de/cgi-bin/loadframe.pl?ID=vb/komponenten/komponente0032.shtml
It is written by a company called coyote corporation www.coyotecorp.com

When did Sequoia Voting Systems inform the public that they use Freeware in their application?
Did Sequoia Voting Systems list CsCxFTP.ocx as COTS? If not, how did they disclose it? When did CsCxFTP.ocx receive a security review.

[ParanoidPat]

1. Nice catch Andy!

:wow: :evilgrin: :toast: Someone has some serious 'splainin to do! :)

"The Internet is more dangerous than guns" G.W. Bush*

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

2. related questions for andy

1. When did it become a requirement for any company to write all its own software, without the use of consultants, and when did it become a requirement for any company to answer to a sandwich artist?

2. What is the relevance of a newsgroup posting containing an innocuous question about how to find the windows temp directory, with posts from a toolsmith employee and a Diebold employee, four years before Diebold even became involved in the election business?


Ahh never mind, just wait for the black helicopters. They should be along shortly. :eyes:

JC

P.S. You forgot to list the home addresses and phone numbers of these tool-smith employees to go along with their names and e-mail addresses... that's standard operating procedure, isn't it? ;)

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

3. uh oh

OMG OMG... there's a reply on that newsgroup thread from a guy who works for Disney... this thing clearly goes a lot further than we first thought! :scared:

JC

[Andy_Stephenson]

4. TinFoil!

Hi...thanks for the kick...nice to see your up and protecting Sequoia so early in the morning.

[Andy_Stephenson]

6. Tinfoil....BTW

God you're slow on the uptake...I don't own the Subway anymore.

Or haven't you been keeping up? :eyes:

[ParanoidPat]

7. You know you've hit a nerve when.....

.....:evilgrin: :thumbsup:

Sparks flying like tinfoil in a microwave! :)

[Andy_Stephenson]

8. Funny thing isn't it...

On another note...Mischelle Townsend has been in meetings the last 2 days. I wonder why?

[ParanoidPat]

9. Do you really?

:shrug: :evilgrin:

If she's smart she's trying to get their story straight for the Grand Jury that's sure to come calling any day now. :)

[Andy_Stephenson]

10. She won't even answer questions

from the press. Wazzup with that?


RE. The Grand Jury...your right of course.

I wonder if she has soiled herself yet?

[ParanoidPat]

11. My favorite part in all of this is......

......summed up nicely by a comment posted by a fellow DUer a couple of days ago. :evilgrin:

"Desperate people do desperate things and stupid people do stupid things, we're in for a desperately stupid summer"

Does anyone's actions here fit this description in your mind? :shrug: :)

Almost as dumb as the Letterman / CNN / Whitehouse thing IMHO.

[RedEagle]

12. Relevant Requirements

1. When did it become a requirement for any company to write all its own software, without the use of consultants, and when did it become a requirement for any company to answer to a sandwich artist?

>>Well, when said company is controlling the vote registering and counting process, pinpointing as their own handiwork that which belongs to someone else, it's important. It's not a requirement, obviously, to write all of your own software. Disclosure though, of such use, is.

>>Voting vendors should answer to the people they purport to work for, after all, we do pay the bill. It's also a little matter of an issue critical for democracy, voting. If the companies that produce the voting machines don't answer to the people, just who do they answer to? The vendor supported Election Center? (Discovered due to another, "ooops," IRS filing oversight)

2. What is the relevance of a newsgroup posting containing an innocuous question about how to find the windows temp directory, with posts from a toolsmith employee and a Diebold employee, four years before Diebold even became involved in the election business?

>See answers to #1 above. If the vendors are not forthcoming, the FEC and others sadly lacking in research and enforcement, gee, I guess citizens carry the burden of finding the facts. A link to a link to a link has uncovered many previously unknown details. I think Andy asked for more help with this, so the conclusion of relevance is still in question. But questions do need to be asked.

>Since the Diebold files contain code from before they were Diebold, and some systems may still run on older programs, yeh, it's relevant what was going on four years ago. It's never been presented as just a Diebold problem, witness the research into its former incarnation, Global.


THP, just what do you propose citizens do to protect their vote? Sit back and believe the vendors? Take The Election Center at its word? Believe the NASED voting systems board, which curiously has a fair number of current and former members who just happen to work in states that have gone to statewide group buys, especially of Diebold? Why would these issues NOT generate interest?

Please describe your idea of a fair, honest, accountable voting system. Please elaborate on the participation, if it should be allowed at all, of private corporations controlling the vote counting. (Please, let's not hash over the security local election officials are supposed to provide. Most are woefully computer illiterate)

I would really like to see some positive input from you, because you appear to have a wealth of knowledge. Instead of berating those who are trying to clean up the system, why don't you roll up your sleeves and help out? I'm sure you have some ideas. Monday morning quarterbacks always call the right plays from their armchairs. Dare to get out of yours and play on the field with the team, in real time.

[greatauntoftriplets]

17. Sandwich artist?

Candidate for Washington Secretary of State is more like it. Get with the program.

:eyes:

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

18. I think sandwich artist pays more

What's a fringe candidate for secretary of state make these days? Maybe I'll run too!

JC

[ParanoidPat]

20. I guess if you think the Democratic party is "fringe"......

.....you must qualify as a programmer! :evilgrin:

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

22. it's sad but unsurprising that I have to explain this to you

When did the Democratic party endorse our unemployed sandwich artist friend? I was under the impression that the real democratic candidate was Laura Ruderman. "Fringe" in this case refers to Andy, not the Democratic party.

Google is your friend! ;)

JC

[greatauntoftriplets]

21. Perhaps you would care to make a campaign donation?

Here is the website.

www.andystephenson.com

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

23. lol

No, I don't think so... I'd prefer it if he went out and got a job.

On the other hand a campaign donation does sound like a good idea -- I think Laura Ruderman has more experience and a much better grasp of the issues; she deserves all our support. :thumbsup:

JC

[greatauntoftriplets]

27. My support?

My SOS is named Jesse White.

[ParanoidPat]

31. "our support" LOL!

Yeah, you and the mouse in your pocket! :evilgrin:

[Andy_Stephenson]

37. "Laura Ruderman has ...a much better grasp of the issues"

Really? From my experience with her...she is clueless.

With the new Montana Primary we have now in the state. I have a great shot at winning. As for the attempted slam about being a "sandwich artist", do you have a problem with that, or are you just an elitist?

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

43. clarification for andy

"Sandwich artist" isn't a slam or an insult, it's merely an observation. I bet you were an awesome sandwich artist. Seriously.

You have no chance at winning. You don't even have a chance at pulling a Nader and splitting the democratic vote. "Montana Primary" or not, if you get more than a hundred ballots cast in your favor I'll eat my tinfoil hat. Laura Ruderman may be "clueless" in your experience, but at least she's not campaigning against touch screen voting machines that her state doesn't even have. I hope she wins: she has an excellent profile, proven experience serving in public office, and a solid track record of beating republicans in tough races.

You, on the other hand, are good with condiments. :thumbsup:

JC

[Andy_Stephenson]

46. Lets see.

Washington State does have Touch Screens. Snohomish County as a matter of fact. Yakima and Franklin Counties are getting them. King, Island, Klikitat and Chelan are using the GEMS program which has already been proven to be crap. In Washington we are talking about more than the Touch Screens, so, your observation there is way off the mark.

"solid track record of beating republicans in tough races." Ms Ruderman is not playing well I'm afraid. She gets a bad rating from the Washington Education Association for her stance on charter schools and comments from her such as this "If poor children can't afford to be in school...then perhaps they should not be in school" will not play well in the eastern part of the state. Especially Yakima with it's large poor Hispanic population. Yakima, where they will get Sequoia Voting machines spanish ballot presentation Which By the way is a Sequoia weak point). Se habla Espanol.

As for "pulling a Nader" and "splitting the Democratic vote". Well the Democratic vote is already split. I am building coalitions do I hear Republican's? See, the Republican party is not too happy with Mr Reed either. But the Republicans are not the only other groups I have. You better start eating your tinfoilhat now. Just among family and friends I count at least 300 votes.

And yes I am good with condiments.

[Junkdrawer]

19. The appearance of Tinfoil is a sure sign you're on the something Andy...

:evilgrin:

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

24. that's very astute...

He's on the something alright. ;)

JC

[ParanoidPat]

32. There are two people who've asked you direct questions THP......

......and you've answered NONE! Why is that? :shrug: :evilgrin:

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

33. let me put it in terms you can understand, pat

O8) :evilgrin: :party: :bounce:
:toast: :toast: :toast:
:crazy: :hippie: :freak:
:wow:
:spank: :beer: :scared:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :tinfoilhat: JC :tinfoilhat: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[ParanoidPat]

36. Pretty much what I'd expect from someone who knows nothing.....

.....about the programming in a DRE voting system! :evilfrown:

Thanks for playing TFHP! :evilgrin:

You want to tell us how safe VBS is again? :shrug: :)

(For those who don't feel like clicking on the link above, it's to a Google search showing the 23,200 hits for a search of 'VBS, exploit'! ;-) )

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

44. poor, poor pat

I suspect that I know more about programming DREs than anyone else here. O8)

You on the other hand, know nothing about programming anything at all. You'd best just stick to the smiley icons, junior. :spank:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:tinfoilhat:JC :tinfoilhat:

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[kiahzero]

30. Questions for "Tinfoil Hat Programmer"

1) Does taking a part-time job somehow scar someone for life, a la Jean Valjean?

2) Are you familiar with ActiveX controls at all?
2a) If you are, are you familiar with the security threat they can pose?
2b) Have you worked with ActiveX controls in the past? If so, are you aware of the average level of quality in a 'freeware' ActiveX control?

3) Do you agree that voting machines should be certified?
3a) If you agree, why should computerized voting machines be exempt?
3b) If you do not agree, how do you ensure that the voting machines work correctly?

4) Please give a formal logical proof demonstrating:
Asking a voting machine company questions about their outsourced work -> No software company may outsource work.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

34. answers for "kiahzero"

1) no, but irrelevant
2) yes
2a) yes
2b) yes and yes
3) certainly
3a) your question makes no sense whatsoever -- please refer to (3)
3b) not applicable
4) pointless

It doesn't matter who wrote the source code to the product -- Sequoia employees, contractors employed by Sequoia, or a combination of the two. Of course in the BBV world everyone with a foreign-sounding name is not to be trusted, but I'm a little less xenophobic than your typical attention-seeking conspiracy theorist.

JC

[kiahzero]

35. Well then

1) If previously having a part time job is irrelevant, why use the insult "sandwich artist?"

2) If you understand the threat posed by 'freeware' ActiveX controls, why does the presence of one within voting software not at least raise a question or two?

3) If you agree with the concept of certifing voting machine software, why is asking questions relevant to that certification so unreasonable as to be a "conspiracy theory?

4) No, it is not pointless, unless you admit that the following was a strawman argument:
1. When did it become a requirement for any company to write all its own software, without the use of consultants, and when did it become a requirement for any company to answer to a sandwich artist?

If you cannot create a proof to demonstrate the link, then this question is merely a strawman.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

45. once more, for the clueless

I'm sad that you characterize "sandwich artist" as an insult. Give Andy a little credit for God's sake.

Your implication that all 'freeware' ActiveX controls are bad is silly. Feel free to post a formal proof of your thesis that 'ActiveX controls are bad, therefore electronic voting is suspect'.

I'll reiterate my earlier point because you clearly don't get it. It doesn't matter whether the software was written by Sequoia employees, or contractors they engaged, or a combination of both. Seriously. It all gets submitted to the ITAs for examination regardless, and Andy's usual implication that people with foreign-sounding names shouldn't be trusted is offensive to me (as it should be to you).

JC

[Andy_Stephenson]

47. Where is the implication?

"Andy's usual implication that people with foreign-sounding names shouldn't be trusted"

I merely posted research.

[ArkDem]

5. This is obiviously part of a plot to take over the world.

.

[hunter]

15. Almost...

The true horror of this thing is that many election officials don't care if their election procedures are clean or not, they only care that their procedures appear to be clean.

Electronic voting without paper ballots cleans up a lot of messes -- messes resulting from incompetence, and messes resulting from outright fraud.

The American people have been lied to -- "pregnant" chads and all the other messes that result from the use of paper ballots are a GOOD THING and very good evidence that some sort of oversight is taking place in our voting system.

If a box full of ballots is found floating in the bay, people are rightfully concerned about the integrity of their elections, and they are more likely to fix any problems.

If some electronic bits evaporate in an electronic voting machine the public never knows...

Crap, I am ANGRY today!

I have done quite a bit of work on the BBV issue, but more and more, it seems the bigger problem is LAZY ASS election officials who are paying private contractors to do their jobs.

Many of these private contractors are corrupt.

Get Angry. Take back your government. These officials are supposed to be working for you!

(edited to fix html problem)

[donsu]

13. kick

nt

[Andy_Stephenson]

14. Kick

:kick:

[harmonyguy]

16. Great Work Andy !

I like your style of researching. !! Allow me to condense it....

Step 1 - find known dots
Step 2 - review known dots
Step 3 - turn over known dots
Step 4 - check each worm that crawls out from under each dot
Step 5 - observe as worms turn into new dots
Step 5 - prepare big marker for step 6
Step 6 - connect the dots
Step 7 - goto step 1

Now if only we could get more folks to dig like this, we'd catch more of the worms.

HG
;)

[fishnfla]

25. Um, in response to your "where's Bev?" question

I may be out of line here because I really dont know the ins and outs, but Bev and her co-author had a big disagreement here last night (check the Robgeorgia thread from yest, now locked). Bev went so far as to try and "tombstone herself" from DU (?) It wasnt pretty, and sad to see the BBV deal breaking down to a squabble over money. But like i say i dont know the whole story so if i'm out of line i apologize, it seemed like a bad fracas to me though.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

28. I rest my case

I have pointed out time and time again that Bev Harris is interested in two things, and two things only: publicity and profit. Now I may have had the order wrong, but last night she proved again what I've been saying all along.

"Tombstoning herself" refers to her apparent assumption that last night's posts would get her banned from DU again, just like the last time she publicly turned on a former ally and attacked her here.

JC


edit for grammar

[burrowowl]

39. If you look at her

profile, she did tombstone herself.

[RedEagle]

48. First of All

David Allen is not a co-author, he contributed. He wrote one chapter and did the ITAA phone call because Bev obviously couldn't. Did an OK job.

As for publicity, well, gee, isn't that what most people do to sell books?

Money? You must be kidding. The problems getting the book placed so it can be sold negate that. If Bev were making the money you suggest, I would surmise that the work she's doing now would not need support.

And there have been legitimate issues. I have a copy with no contents page, no appendix, and no index. A friend recently ordered 11 copies and they have no index. If you order from Talion, you get a complete book.

It wouldn't be the first disagreement in the world between writer/researcher/investigator and publisher. It happens.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

50. er...

I never called David Allen a co-author... that was the previous poster (and Bev, actually, on several occasions).

Since you bring it up however, let me quote from your post:

He wrote one chapter and...

Sounds like a co-author to me. :thumbsup:

I'm sad that your copy has no contents page or appendix or index. But hey, you're way ahead of me... I've been promised a copy (signed, and delivered in person no less) for over 6 months and I haven't received jack squat. :(

I'm not actually interested in the petty financial squabbles between Ms. Harris and her publisher. A normal person does not resolve their business issues by smearing someone in public on a political message board. What amuses me is the fact that her latest public meltdown proves what I've been saying all along, and makes all the people who so vociferously denied her publicity-seeking financial motivation look downright silly. After all, the last big Bev Harris DU meltdown was primarily about money too, as I recall.

"Just understand that every book you buy from Plan Nine does not benefit me a whit." -- Bev Harris

I thought it was all about getting the word out to as many people as possible and saving democracy. What happened to that?

"Apparently this guy thought I gave up a year and a half of my life to write a book for free." -- Bev Harris

Oh... never mind.

JC :tinfoilhat:

[RedEagle]

51. Oh.....never mind

Then why comment on it? If it's "Oh, never mind," to you, then why bother? Is verbal jousting the game? If so, why don't you joust on posts dealing with other subjects?

What is your attraction to this one issue on DU?

As for your copy of the book, if you'll pm me your address, I'll send you one.

Still get a free book THP.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

54. that's gracious of you

Thanks for the offer of the book, but it just wouldn't be the same unless Bev Harris shows up on my doorstep as promised. ;)

My attraction to this one issue on DU is simple: I'm a programmer and much has been made (mostly inaccurately) about a bunch of programming issues, for the most part by a bunch of computer illiterates. I'm offended by many of the crazy claims made here on the topic of voting machines. Moreover, hypocrisy simply bugs me and it abounds here in spades, as I've pointed out many times over.

JC

[RedEagle]

57. Extrapolate for a minute

The book offer stands. PM me when you decide you want one.

"...bunch of computer illiterates."

The debate about the programming led to discovery of a program which led to review, about four different ones at last count, that pretty much slammed the programming. So while the less computer educated began the questioning, the Rubin's along with the Ohio study and then the RABA group pretty much nailed down the programming issue.

However, if you don't rely totally on programming to protect the vote, i.e., the voter verified paper ballot, then programming doesn't have to be the final election judge. And you've admitted that we agree on paper.

But this debate began the process to that voter verified paper ballot. And this movement beginning to curtail the vendor control over the situation- which is the only way to get paper on the machines. Vendor control via entities like The Election Center, which in turn helps "educate" election officials, you know how the game is played.

It's not about whether you and I agree about the paper, because apparently, we do. It's getting the paper on the machines that is at issue. Reluctant vendors and brainwashed election officials are a deadly combination. Without the work Bev and others have done, we wouldn't be on the road to setting things right.

Those "computer illiterates" got the ball rolling.

When are you going to help?

[RedEagle]

53. OK THP, I was Wrong- Allen did not author a chapter

Here's your chance to heap on the verbal abuse, I'm fair game.

David Allen did not write a chapter in Bev's book.

Allen dropped in on the ITAA meeting and took notes, posted his opinions on several websites, but did not author the chapter.

So, I'm fair game for a verbal roast.

I WAS WRONG.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

56. how about a truce

I don't actually know or care how much of the book was written by David Allen... so no roasting necessary. :)

On the other hand, it was I who pointed out many of the spelling, grammatical and factual errors in the book when it was first being "published" online. I think Bev should send me a check for proofreading and editing, but based on the sales to date I think the cost of phoning my lawyer would be more than my cut of the profits. ;)

JC

[RedEagle]

59. One of the downsides of a book written in public view

Many of us helped proof that online version. I think that was one of the reasons for getting it up on line, besides getting out the information.

And thanks for the help.

I have no intention of asking for anything for any proofreading or research that I might have had a hand in. The goal is more important to me. It's important to everyone who ever emailed Bev and said, "Hey, take a look at this!"

Like it or not, we all got INVOLVED. INVESTED. No small thing, that.

Most books never see the light of day until they're on the bookshelves at the local bookstore.

Witnessing the pangs of creation is not usually a process thrown open to the world, or to criticism.

The message- and the need, is bigger than any of us. "We," however, are the solution to the need.

I ask again, what are your solutions? If you are programmer, what would you do to clean up the certification process, restructure the way the machines are sold, would you take voting systems out of the realm of private companies, what do you see as the means for cleaning up the current mess? The attention has been generated, whether you like the way it's come about or not. The opportunity is before us. How would you go about restructuring?

[FlaGranny]

49. I don't care WHAT Bev Harris wants or what her motives are.

The votes on voting machines cannot be verified. We all know what things can go wrong. We have absolutely no method of verifying that things are working as promised. Anyone who understands programming and hardware, as you claim to, must know that. Are you suggesting that nothing can ever go wrong, there are no people in this world with ulterior motives, and we are living in Pleasantville? It seems so, and if that's the case, it makes one wonder what your motives might be.

[TinfoilHatProgrammer]

52. well I DO care what her motives are

Hook up a printer, print those ballots out, and let the voter verify them. I've said it a hundred times, and I have no motive more complicated than that. Call up your secretary of state and demand it -- every major vendor has committed to providing that feature to any client that wants it, despite what you've been led to believe.

Of course printing out the ballots isn't going to solve anything. It's actually all about the certification. Of course certification doesn't actually matter because the ITAs can't be trusted. And even if the ITA gets cleaned up and the software's certified it can't be trusted because it's insecure. And even if it's enhanced to make it secure it doesn't matter because the independent reviewers are in the vendors' pockets. And even if you can find an honest reviewer it doesn't matter, because the software's written by the evil pot-smoking, tree-hugging, gay-marrying, music-copying Canadian right-wing Republican sympathizers. Or the mysterious Lee cartel, or the KGB, or a bunch of Indian contractors. And even if all development were restricted to true, card-carrying, red-blooded American programmers, the CEO's a Republican and only Democrats should be allowed to run companies that make voting equipment. And even if the company were run by a Democrat, the software wouldn't be open-source. And besides, a crack dealer runs the photocopier, and all the election officials are corrupt anyway. Get it?

But as for me, I'd be satisfied if the machine printed out a paper ballot that could be verified by the voter -- I have no ulterior motive.

Buy Bev's book, or better yet skip all that craziness and just send her fifty bucks or buy her a Cadillac or something from her wish-list. But don't fool yourself into thinking you're doing something worthwhile to save democracy.

JC :tinfoilhat:

[FlaGranny]

58. What I actually should have said was

that Bev Harris is not even a consideration in my mind. I don't care what she wants, what her motives are, all I care about is honest elections, ability to recount, and every possible thing done to make it as fair and safe as possible. Just want to make it so.

If you follow the money and connections, it's not much effort to worry about who's counting our votes and how they're doing it.

[Rex]

55. Aww, Bev has a stalker!

Ain't It cute! :hi:

[Junkdrawer]

26. BBV and Microsoft...Remember the "Last Stage of Delirium" incident...

Last year, just as BBV researchers were rumored to be exploring some strange goings on in some RPC code in the Diebold Code, Microsoft announced a massive hole in RPC security. Turns out it was discovered by a group in Poland called "Last Stage of Delirium".

What was passing odd was that, before the RPC find, this group only found vulnerabilities in operating systems OTHER THAN WINDOWS:

http://lsd-pl.net/vulnerabilities.html

[Junkdrawer]

29. Kick

:kick:

[ParanoidPat]

38. Thanks Junkdrawer......

.....good memory! :thumbsup:

[Junkdrawer]

40. Can you IMAGINE what would have happened...

if the RPC vulnerability were found by BBV researchers first?

[ParanoidPat]

41. What makes you think it wasn't......

......:evilgrin:

[Junkdrawer]

42. May I should have said "announced to the world" first...

:evilgrin: right back at you.