SOS -- Need Quotes From Founding Fathers Re: Separation of Church/State

[GiovanniC]

Apparently the RWers are at it again in my local newspaper, blanketing the editorial pages with letters about how we should be teaching church-approved sex education in our schools, and how we should go back to "the way our founding fathers intended by reading the Bible in class" -- basically, these guys that are always raising such a stink about Janet Jackson's Boobie want elementary school kids to learn to read with the smiting, wrath, incest, murder, war, rape, infanticide, etc. that is the Holy Bible.

And I would like to rebut them with quotes from founding fathers who wanted a separation between church and state -- and it would be great if there were some well-known founders who may not have been religious at all. Did I hear somewhere that Ben Franklin was atheist/agnostic?

Can anyone help?

[democracyindanger]

1. Franklin, Washington

and others were deists--more agnostic than Christian. Also look up the Treaty of Malta, I think an Adams was president, where the Sultan is assured in writing that the US is not a Christian nation.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

2. Check this archieved thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=704411

[redqueen]

6. That was fast!

:yourock:

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

7. I bookmarked it for ammo against my friend...

why we're still friends, I'll never know, 'cause he's SO much a freeper-type blind * lover, it's sickening.
Good news: he's afraid of Kerry, because he knows that Kerry can beat *.

[redqueen]

10. It's good that you're still his friend

You're a GREAT influence. :)

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

12. No I'm not.

He told me he was tired of Rush's hypocricy, but then a month later mentioned "I was listening to Rush the other day and he said..."
Says "there's nothing else on during that time." whem I brought up his stance against OxyRush.

I tell you, if I met him today, I wouldn't be his friend.
I have more than one friend I can say that about. I'm tired of my conservative friends take one look at my DU bumpersticker and say "I so want to burn this." or various other things along that line. (Long story...)

[redqueen]

14. I bet you are, though

And now you can tell him he can listen to Air America instead of that pill popping lunatic!

Sad that he's rude, but most of them are, sadly. :(

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

17. Actually, that was another "friend"...

who also is convinced that the Freemasons are trying to bring about the anti-christ. (My dad's a Mason, and this(now ex-)friend said that my dad was part of this "evil organization" and part of the problem in America.)
My OxyRush-fan friend won't ever listen to Air America, though. He's too far gone.

[ithacan]

3. go here:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/separation_church_state2.htm

You'll get lots of info at this page, part of the TheocracyWatch website that charts the takeover of the Republican Party by the Religious Right.

One key point: NOWHERE in the Constitution is God mentioned (except in the date).

If the founding fathers had wanted God in the constitution, if they believed what the religious right is claiming, they very easily could and would have put it right up front IN THE CONSTITUTION.

But they didn't

[comsymp]

4. This should get you started

Although you may as well just beat your head against a wall...

http://religion.aynrand.org/quotes.html

[ThomWV]

5. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or pro

What more need be said?

[GiovanniC]

8. They Believe

That the first amendment is proof that the founding fathers didn't want anyone to take away the little children's right to be taught the Bible in elementary school.

[arcane1]

9. Washington and Jefferson:

"The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion." Washington, from the Treaty of Tripoli (signed by Adams)

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state." Jefferson, letter to Congress

Jefferson has some VERY un-kind things to say about the Bible and the Christian god, but fundies choose to ignore it, much like they ignore most of the Bible

[ixion]

11. Some Franklin quotes

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2c48q/separation.htm#Franklin

http://capecodhistory.us/quotes/quotes.htm#BenFranklin

not all on chruch and state, although you might be able to find somethihng useful there. :-)

[Kelvin Mace]

13. How about a Biblical quote supporting the separation of church and state?

Matthew 6:5-6

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

In other words, people who pray in public (school, congress, court, etc) are violating Jesus' command.

David Allen
Publisher, CEO, Janitor
Plan Nine Publishing
http://www.plan9.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com

[redqueen]

15. Best. Sig. Ever.

Preach it, brother!

[seabeyond]

16. christianity and founding fathers

Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.
- Thomas Jefferson


The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
- Thomas Jefferson


The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.
- John Adams


During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.
-James Madison


What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.
-James Madison


Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
-Thomas Paine


It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it (the Apocalypse), and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825


In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814


The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter... But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789


They believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.
-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800


History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814