Does anyone ever feel like the U.S. is headed towards a second Civil War?

[Sandpiper]

I used to think it could never happen, but since the 2000 election was hijacked, I see battle lines being drawn in this country, between two groups with irreconcilable differences as to the future of the nation, economically, socially, culturally and globally.

And I keep getting this feeling in my gut that some time in the not too distant future, the culture wars are going to come to a head.

[seahawky]

1. Dude you know nothing about the Civil War

Different time different place.

[Sandpiper]

3. Thanks Dude

For the insightful reply and stuff.

[minkyboodle]

20. lol

dude where's my car

[The Night Owl]

35. Dude, where's my war?

:nuke:

[mike1963]

8. I am amazed at your erudite reply! "Different time, different place"

What an astounding revelation! And aren't any two events at different times and places?

Many of the elements that precipitated the Civil War are in place as we
watch - not the specific details, but the underlying principles, agendas and socio-political (and now geo-political) issues are very much operational.

What is very difficult to discern, however, is just who is against whom.
There are alliances that would have been impossible to imagine a few years ago, and divisions just as previously inconceivable. It may end up with nearly as many factions as there are citizens...and that is a frightening possibility.

[eleny]

18. FYI - The Civil War/The War for Southern Independence....

....has not really ended. I'll leave it there since you seem to appreciate the succinct.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

25. Have you read history?

I doubt it.

:eyes:

[Redleg]

28. D'oh- well said, Professor!

Maybe you would care to elaborate on that point?

[Birthmark]

2. Nope

The two groups that are at odds are intermingled across the country. It won't be a war in any meaningful sense.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. Well...

I do feel that if Chimpy gets a second term, things are gonna get real hot, within the first two years. The pressure will have to bleed off, and it will do so explosively.

That there is just the lessons of history. Personally, I could do without that kind of interesting stuff.

[realdeal22k]

5. Yes. Which side is hammering the wedge is the next question

I fear tomorrow I'll be crying...

[ConcernedCanuk]

6. ABSOLUTELY! - that's the only way the US will survive as a nation -

.
.
.

But I'm not suggesting that a civil war will be successful, polls keep hovering around the 50/50 border, . .

Almost looks like it would have been better for the US if there had been a "division" in the first round so to speak . .

Maybe there SHOULD be a "North" and a "South" in the USA

But the Admin would fight that because they want all that taxpayers' money for their WarMachine . . .

Tank Gawd Canuks din' lose in 1812/13!

(No credit to my heritage, my family didn't get over here till just before WW1)

[Kathy in Cambridge]

26. And most of the federal tax $$ comes from the North

so there won't ever be a split.

[codegreen]

7. it will be a guerilla terror/counter terror war, maybe small scale

but yes i think political violence is likely coming to America, sadly.

freeper hate crimes or progressive rebellion, bound to happen after the election. maybe before too.

[AlinPA]

9. I have thought that, but the "ruling" party could stop it

with all the military power the US has. More likely we could see violence among the parties and their supporters. I'm amazed the congress has been so "civil". Its starting to break down though, Gingrich started it. People like DeLay and his followers as well as the rabid RW fundamentalists could start to move towards violence if their party loses and election.

[Jane Eyre]

10. Maybe, but by secession not just culture

Look at the lessons of history. The 19th Century "Civil War" was about cultural issues - slavery - but it actually happened when Southern states pulled away from the Union over economic issues which were closely tied with the cultural issues, the chief cultural issue being slavery.

Slavery was both a cultural and an economic issue, and the practice was not limited to the South nor were all Southerners believers in the practice of slaveowning. Brown University in Providence, RI is named for a man who made his fortune in the sugar cane/rum/slave trade. There were lots of abolitionist Quakers in the South whose homes were stops on the Underground Railroad.

There were certainly significant cultural differences between the North and the South in those days as there are now. I mean, are there any Southern Baptist churches in the North or West the way there are here? Having lived both North and South, I think the answer is no. The red state/blue state map reflects those cultural differences and it cannot be denied that there are significant cultural differences between the regions. A civil war would not be started by differences in general cultures between the various regions though those differences would become more pronounced during a secessionary period. Cultural differences feed the fire, but would not ultimately be the deciding factor in a true breaking apart of the Union.

The impetus for secession, possibly leading to a true Civil War, would be the economic issues affecting the various states. The fact is that the red states receive more government largess than the blue states. The blue states are pressed economically to provide for a fast-growing immigrant population, aging infrastructure in its cities, technological advances which negate the need for centralized work places...the list goes on. The issues faced by blue states will continue to be ignored by the "they don't vote for us anyway" mentality of the Bush administration.

More likely than a cultural Civil War, in my opinion, would be a secession of blue states who have had it with unfunded mandates from Washington. This would be similar to the breaking apart of the Soviet Union. Simply put, the center would no longer hold.

[bloom]

11. I was thinking the other day

we might be better off - and the world would be better off - if we were 50 separate countries. Be more like Europe.

Denmark, for instance, is not a threat to anybody.

I think it would be a good thing.

[seabeyond]

12. let me get out of the south first

before it all starts, wink

[kalian]

13. I don't see it happening right away....

I think it will take time for Americans to realize that they're
being enslaved. What will happen is that right after the next
"election" there will be some generalized violence and some major
demonstrations but nothing serious will come out of it.

Eventually things will "quiet down". As the months...and maybes
years go by, increased police powers will make more and more
people realize that they no longer live in a "free" country. The issue
is to see how people become organized to setup some sort of
opposition.

We can largely agree that the majority of the military will bide by
the ruling elite's orders and thus, direct confrontations are out
of the question. I think that we will see guerilla-style attacks
against corporate centers, federal centers, etc...but remember that
any such actions will land you the title of "unlawful combatant"
and a free ticket to gitmo.

Sigh...I don't know what will transpire. At this point, its all
pure speculation....on EVERYBODY'S part. Don't get me wrong, when
the time comes...I will fight...but I will not throw my life away.

[TankLV]

29. I'm sure the mercenaries freed from the Iraq "war" will be more than happy

to shoot, maim & torture us "un-patriotic" liburals.

It's in the pipeline now.

Won't need actual, honerable "soldiers" to do their dirty work - it'll be hired goons - same as the creeps who were killed in Falluja.

[jorno67]

14. No

[greendeerslayer]

15. Sadly, yes..

That will probably happen in the medium term. It will assume the chararteristics mentioned above. If we had a legitimate, functioning political process it could probably be avoided. But we don't and it probaly won't.

[vetwife]

37. An American revolution

Not a civil war...unless it was between the red and blue states but I happen to think there will be a revolt and it will come from people of all states. I believe if that November thing does not go our way, there will be a cultural, not peaceful but all out revolution. I hate to say it. I hate to see it. I hope it doesn't happen but even if Kerry goes in , there is still a big possibility to be a revolution. Ever heard that a divided house won't stand. We have been divided a very long time.

[Mr.Green93]

16. How would one know who to engage

[TankLV]

30. Think "French Resistance".

Same thing will happen here.

Never underestimate people united in a truly righteous cause, unlike the fundie/militia/rethug/wackos.

It won't be easy. But it can and will be done. Always has.

Just will be a little harder this time at first. Always is.

With our over-centralized society now, it wouldn't take much to wreak havoc for justice.

That will more than offset the newer techie weapons.

Just think about it for awhile.

Even a little dust destroys a computer.

There are no "hairpin" type repairable military vehicles/planes anymore.

[ConcernedCanuk]

33. Exactly right, - - a wee magnet in the right/wrong place

.
.
.

will disable anything run by computer - -

oops, there goes the USA's WarMachine

Whole Fleets/Airforce/Navy Outdone by $500 worth of penny magnets from WalMart

Irony is -

they all read "Made in China"

[aintitfunny]

17. No

[Skittles]

19. It's like having to fight the south again

*sigh*

[Ysabel]

21. at some point in the 1990's...

during the first bush reign (i believe it was - i don't remember the exact date -perhaps it was 1991 or 1992)...

we (here in the u.s.) had not only reached - but surpassed - the point where the "have and have nots" exceeded the percentage of the "haves and the have nots" in france on the eve of the revolution...

i think that is very interesting and also very telling...

some scholars and others have noted that (when revolution happens) has to do with the cost of bread in relation to how much people earn in a day...

currently i'm reading an interesting study of class differences and concerning specifically what kinds of oppression/s lead to revolts - there are - history shows - a series of fairly regular steps that people go through - most often beginning with attempts to bargain, non-violent resistence (also underground / hidden and often un-spoken of - sorts of passive / aggressive resistance - as well as certain types of non-compliant behavior that becomes almost as if built into cultures which have been considered "lower class") and on - until at some point - things become - just too un-bearable for too many...

-------------

editing - please excuse my sentence structure - which seems to me to be a bit redundant - i'm too sleepy at the moment to try and correct it...

[rumguy]

24. It could never be like the civil war again - you know big military battles

but what I do see coming, especially if Bush is re-elected, is something like the 60s, big demonstrations, violence, some chaos...the people vs. the corporate thugs - like what happened in Miami during the FTAA protests, just on a larger scale.

[Jackpine Radical]

22. What better time to have a civil war

than now, while the military & Nat'l Guard are all out of the country?

[Xithras]

23. For various reasons, I don't think the US will last another 100 years

The United States is the oldest uninterrupted constitutional democracy in the world, and it's survived this long because there has always been an underlying cooperation within our government driven by expansion. Even during the civil war, both sides were driven by a desire to improve the lives of their people, and to see their nation expand and grow into something greater. The division was in the details...the definition of "people".

That common sense of what the U.S. should accomplish seems to be dying today. Republicans have no great future plan for the U.S. other than "profit" and "get more people to church". The Democrats, I'm ashamed to say, have no great vision for our future either. We push equality, tolerance, and assistance for all who need it, but there's no great vision about where we're going as a nation and what we hope to accomplish.

Without a common goal, people tend to become divided by petty squabbles and polarized into positions on subjects that would otherwise seem obscure or trivial. We divide ourselves based on regions, colors, social status, wealth, and without any common thread to unite us, we simply deepen those divisions every time they are brought up.

Personally, I no longer see any goals that could unite all Americans, which could get us to be civil to each other despite our differences. Once the divisions get deep enough, people will simply begin to ask why we're united at all...and it's all downhill from there.

I don't neccesarily see this as a bad thing. I don't envision any civil wars like we had in the 1800's, but more likely a breakup akin to the end of the Soviet Union a little over a decade ago. Some states will go their own way by themselves, others will group up and form larger nations. There may be squabbles over resources and borders, but we're still civil enough to avoid outright widescale warfare with our neighbors.

[Jane Eyre]

27. The Republic of California may be first to secede

Given the problems caused by the Bushies' energy market manipulation a few years ago and various other financial issues, combined with the sheer size of the state in economical, physical and cultural terms, my bet is that California could be the first to opt out of the union. Why should a blue state the size of California continue to suffer the wrath and political machinations of the Bushies? Schwarzenneger does not have the answers. There are no answers in the recent political upheaval of a recall. California is a "bellweather state," according to John Naisbitt's book "Megatrends".

Still, I don't see this happening near term. Maybe 20-30 years down the road, but it depends upon how devastating the effects of the tremendous Bush deficits are. Could be sooner if things are not fixed. I too foresee a Soviet Union style breakup if economic conditions continue their current trends under this kleptocracy.

[Nevernose]

31. YES!!! I think GWB is a LOT like Lincoln!

At least in some ways...racist as hell, taking advantage of (perhaps even creating) a crisis situation so his political party could gain yet more power, and no respect for the constitution.

It's so weird that you would mention this, as I was just thinking about the similarities tiday...

If more DUers paid a bit more attention to history that was not in government approved text books, I guarantee that you would have a movement to take his lying Republican ass off of the penny and the fiver.

[Iceburg]

32. Absolutely -- and thats from an outsider looking in

I sure you would agree that most of the progress is taking back this country has come from the families of 9/11. The fallout from the pressure the families have put on the government has no equal. They are nearing the finish line (the pres) and need your help --If you have not as yet directly support this group then PLEASE PLEASE

take the time to support the ongoing work of the 9/11 Family Steering Committee actions by emailing the commission and other influential beings regarding the latest conditions placed on the 911 commission by the * Administraion.

In the Family's most recent ACTION ALERT they want the commission to address 9 very specific issues.

Have a heart (and a brain) and put "unprecedented" pressure on this group so that the truth may be unveiled. Just go to:

http://www.911independentcommission.org/index.html

The fifth demand as of April 1
Did you know that Ms. Rices's private testimony was not recorded?

<snip>
Fifth, we request that going forward the Commission record and transcribe all private and public testimony, from whatever source – even the President and Vice President, in order to accurately preserve these historical testimonies. It has been reported that the Commission failed to record National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice's private testimony on February 7, 2004. The failure of the 9/11 Commission to record Dr. Rice's testimony further calls into question this Commission's methods in conducting its investigation
</snip>

[JanMichael]

34. No. It won't be civil.

Frankly I can't predict the future but it doesn't look terribly bright in my eyes.

That said I'm a planner by nature and by profession so in this instance i plan for the worst case scenario.

[jbutsz]

36. Probably, Maybe,

Eventually, who knows. We can fight amongst ourselves through a hundred civil wars over the next 1000 years and nothing much will change no matter which side "wins."

There will never be peace until we neuter wealth's power to seize and control our governments and any meaningful parties directing them, which is unlikely to ever happen because few can comprehend the enormous complexity of all which governs their lives, and thus identify the true sources of power which profits from our misery.

We haven't been the ideal Constitutional America since December 22-23, 1913 at the latest - the previous hundred years setting the stage. Stolen "elections" and undeclared wars should come as no surprise by now. It's been getting worse and worse exponentially since The Federal Reserve was created, and will keep getting worse, and eventually we'll probably war amongst ourselves again and "they" will find some way to profit from it, again, while keeping the curtain of truth drawn closed as usual - like the Wizard of Oz.

In some eastern philosophies, duality - such as the fight between "good" and "bad" for example - is said to be an illusion of perception. In other words, one can see the truth clearly only by not choosing sides, but rather, watching the whole.

No matter who wins, we're all slaves. It's enormously worse than you think.