Iraqis throwing themselves under US tanks and being crushed in Baghdad

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040403/wl_afp/iraq_us&cid=1512&ncid=1480

US tanks deploy in Baghdad as Shiite radicals take to streets

<snip>An AFP correspondent saw one young man lunging at a tank which stopped abruptly without harming him. The crowd cheered the young man and then protestors upturned carts to block the road.


"There were two or three dead among the protestors who threw themselves under American tanks which could not avoid them," said Sergeant Abbas Mohamad.

more

[David Dunham]

1. Makes US and Bush look very bad.

[Desertrose]

3. as bad as the ones who ran over Rachel Corrie?

Just wondering...that "incident" was pretty much ignored here in the US.



Peace
DR

[brainshrub]

12. Some of us still remember.

Take a look at my avatar.

[Desertrose]

66. thanks...bless you

I know there are some who remember...thank heavens for it !
:hug:

Peace
DR

[northzax]

14. actually, makes the military look pretty good

since they tried to stop.

[ewagner]

2. Oh gawd!!!

More horrific pictures.

More martyrs.......

What a sick f-ing mess we've created....and there isn't any happy ending in sight.

[jenk]

4. FOX News- "Heroic tanks fend off suspected Al Qaeda in Iraq!"

[kentuck]

11. Outnumbered tanks defeat rock throwers in great victory !

Yes! Very heroic! :(

[maggrwaggr]

57. hm, they shut down the paper because they were scared of violence

that the paper might incite ......

Gee, can you say "blowback?"

[salinen]

5. GWB

a man of God.

[Karenina]

6. What NOW????

A close friend and I discussed 15 mos. ago the chain reaction we envisioned following our expectation of the "shock & awe" scenario.
NO ONE is "winning" here. There's a hole on the boat and it's SINKING.

[Gloria]

27. "They plan to beat us"---

Relevant information on the current situation from the current WMW....


1//Inter Press Service April 1, 2004

http://www.ips.org/index.htm



FALLUJAH PUNCTURES WASHINGTON’S OPTIMISM

Analysis by Jim Lobe

While few expect a similar reaction now, the fiery re-emergence of Iraq in the public consciousness -- after a relatively calm month when it was pushed to the back pages -- makes it clear that the Bush administration's optimistic depictions of the situation there might be as misleading as its pre-war claims about Baghdad's weapons of mass destructions (WMD) and ties to the al-Qaeda terrorist group of Osama bin Laden.

(SNIP)

As noted by veteran 'New York Times' correspondent John Burns on Thursday, both the Fallujah murders and the latest roadside killings should prompt military and occupation officials to re-think their conclusions in early February that foreign and local Islamist terrorists had replaced loyalists of former President Saddam Hussein in the ''Sunni Triangle'' of north-central Iraq as their principal enemy in the country and that they had ''turned the corner'' in putting down the insurgency of the Ba'ath Party supporters.

''This reminds me so much of Vietnam, it's scary'', Lawrence Korb, a senior Pentagon official under President Ronald Reagan (1981-89), told the 'Washington Post' Thursday. ''Every time in Vietnam that we kept saying there was light at the end of the tunnel, then something horrible would happen''.

The pattern of these attacks suggested to T.X. Hammes, a senior military fellow at the Institute for National Security Studies who just returned from a two-month assignment in Iraq, that occupation forces face a real insurgency that will not be defeated in the short term.

''They plan to beat us'', he wrote, adding that the opposition now consists of disparate groups who are loosely allied ''to drive the U.S.-led coalition out of Iraq''.

The ''quality'' of the mob's violence in the attack on the four security workers -- all former members of U.S. Special Operations Forces -- also struck Juan Cole, an Iraq specialist at the University of Michigan, as both remarkable and ominous.

''The degree of hatred for the new order among ordinary people is bad news'', he wrote in his daily ''blog'' (Internet journal). ''It helps explain why so few of the Sunni Arab guerrillas have been caught, since the locals hide and help them".

''It also seems a little unlikely that further U.S. military action can do anything practical to put down this insurgency; most actions it could take would simply inflame the public against them all the more'' Cole added.

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[pscot]

7. Natural selection at work

I wish I could scrape up some sympathy for these fools, but it just isn't there. All I can muster is a shrug.

17. would you have said that to Gandhi?

sounds like it to me.
Try to think outside of the box.

[Yupster]

55. At least it's a good way to kill yourself

and make a political message.

It's better than blowing yourself up next to a pregnant lady on a city bus.

[LibertyorDeath]

58. "I can muster is a shrug"

"I wish I could scrape up some sympathy for these fools, but it just isn't there. All I can muster is a shrug."

Hey I didn't know William F Buckley was in the House.

"Natural selection at work" don't look now but your ignorance is showing.

[DBoon]

8. Message to PNAC:

"I told you so"

[TexasMexican]

9. If people are thorwing themselves in front of tanks.

then its Darwinism waiting to happen.

[dpibel]

46. Gotta love that vaunted American compassion

Edited for a typo: "they" was rendered "that"

*Snerf!* Darwinism! *Snerf!*

Of course, if the situation were flipped, it would be brave American freedom fighters, utilizing whatever means they had in their brave and noble struggle for liberation.

What is so hard about empathy? Oh. That's right. Americans are brainwashed to hate (to flip-side the "I know all about them Mooslims" wisdom expressed on another thread).

[Mari333]

48. You really need to see what we did to the people of Iraq

and its time to bring the troops home
I dare you to click on this link.

pictures of Iraq victims of the war for nothing.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm








http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[AGiordino]

51. Not Darwinism

Tienamen Square goes Near Eastern

and we're the Totalitarians

[Ripley]

10. What does this remind you of?

[VolcanoJen]

13. Remember Tiananmen Square.

God, this is horrible.

[Pow_Wow]

33. exactly nt

[paulk]

54. Tienanmen Square is not a good analogy

The Chinese were protesting for democracy. Moqtada Sadr and his followers are hoping to destroy all social order in Iraq . Their purpose is to foment civil war and implement their extremist agenda.

Sadr represents the most extreme right wing elements among the Shia. Although a distinct minority, they are the most heavily armed faction.

I doubt there are many Iraqi's shedding a tear for these martyrs.

[lumpy]

67. Bushco beat Sadr

to the punch in destroying all social order in Iraq.

[wryter2000]

15. Flashback

Buddhist monks setting themselves on fire in Viet Nam.

:cry:

18. You're wasting your time with some of these folks

They can't see that far back.
Vietnam is irrelevant, remember?
& I know they don't remember Gandhi, even though I posted about him above.

[Mikimouse]

25. Let's not forget Yuri Andropov's glorious tank drive through

Budapest either. I tend to think that the present scenario is more closely related to that than to Tiennanmen Square.

34. Thanks for reminding me of that, I was born then

October 31, 1956 to be precise.

[leftchick]

16. Did you see the Shiite protesting with their army?

Members of Shiite radical cleric Moqtada al-Sadr's Mehdi Army parade in Baghdad's Shiite neighborhood of Sadr city.(AFP/Str)

[realdeal22k]

19. I don't see their army in the picture

Which ones are the army? Where are their weapons?

[Ripley]

20. Here is a description:

Huge protests were also held in the central pilgrimage city of Najaf and as far south as Amara, while unarmed militiamen from Sadr's Mehdi Army paraded in Sadr City, a sprawling mainly Shiite neighbourhood of the capital regarded as a radical stronghold.

[w13rd0]

21. unarmed militiamen?

What the hell is an "unarmed militiaman"? If they are UNARMED, then they AREN'T MILITIA! What kind of stupidity drives the writing of this crap?

[Ripley]

22. Maybe the clerics asked them to disarm?

For them to joing their parade. :shrug:

Maybe not joing their parade, but JOIN their parade. sheesh can't type.

[leftchick]

23. pay no attention to realdeal22k

he/she does not like pesky old facts...

[Ripley]

24. Yeah, I know.

Trolling for bites...

[realdeal22k]

28. No, Ripley, I most certainly am not

I believe my civil opinion is as welcome here as yours or anyone else's. Correct?

[realdeal22k]

26. Facts like militiamen are supposed to be armed?

I don't normally respond to flamers but what facts are you accusing me of "not liking"?

[Ripley]

29. What is the exact nature of your familiarity with militias in Iraq?

Do you also know what kind of arms they use? It amazes me how some people are so Amurikan Zenophobic, they can't understand anything that is not like what they see on ABC.

[leftchick]

30. or faux...

if they did not see it on faux news it must not be true! :eyes:

[Ripley]

31. Well, I was in a generous mood.

;-)

[realdeal22k]

35. A sword, rifle, sabre or something

Unless they are all Kung Fu masters :-)

[DrWeird]

53. they left the weapons at home.

The US is busy confiscating weapons.

But the US sold the Iraqis plenty of weapons, so everybody's well armed and it will take decades to confiscate them all.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Did you notice how the US press uses words like "radical cleric"?

Or distort the facts about Fallujah, presenting the city as a hotbed of pro-Saddam sentiment when the truth is quite the opposite?

Nothing we'll do can prevent the Shias from having their share of power, and from establishing an Islamic Republic. We should have left Saddam in place if we did not want Iraq to turn into another Iran.

Kucinich is right about Iraq, and Kerry is wrong! We should bring the troops home NOW!

[realdeal22k]

36. I for one consider forcing the covering of women's faces radical

I curious...What exactly are the "facts about Falluja" that the press are distorting?

[Ripley]

37. Yeah, let's nuke em all because of the poor oppressed women.

What a phoney argument to justify your hatred of someone different than you. Tell me, do you encourage your representative to pass the ERA, or keep abortion safe and legal for women to control their biological destiny?

Didn't think so. You've been here before, I forget were you AirCadet?

[realdeal22k]

44. I have no hatred for anyone. What an odd assumption you have made

Either point to any hatred I have expressed or retract your false attack on me. Please. My reps don't need me to encourage what they currently support...as do I.

I'm a newbie Ripley...believe it or not :-)

[ret5hd]

62. i think there's another descriptive word for you too.

[IndianaGreen]

39. The trouble in Fallujah began when US troops opened fire on a crowd

One US soldier manning a .50 caliber atop a Humvee, swerved to avoid a rock but in doing so, he opened fire on the crowd killing several people.

I remember that in the aftermath, the Fallujahns were outraged that the Americans had offered them money in compensation rather than the more appropriate apology that their culture requires.

The story was widely posted and discussed in DU at the time. Here is the bland NY Times version of the incident.

April 29, 2003
U.S. Troops Fire on Iraqi Protesters, Leaving 15 Dead
By IAN FISHER

FALLUJAH, Iraq, April 29 — American soldiers shot dead what hospital officials said were 15 people at an anti-American rally here late on Monday. Accounts of the incident, which occurred on Saddam Hussein's birthday, varied widely today: Iraqis said the soldiers opened fire, unprovoked, while the soldiers said they were fired on first and then responded with a careful counter-attack.

Residents said at least 65 other people were injured in the incident at a school.

No matter what triggered the incident, sentiment against the United States military presence jumped up several notches, even as American officials sought both to more firmly fill the void of power three weeks after they took control here and to build greater trust among ordinary Iraqis.

As United States military units left the school here this evening, boys shook their shoes at the soldiers, an insult in Iraq, pelted them with stones and yelled in English: "Down USA!"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/29/international/worldspecial/29CND-IRAQ.html?ex=1081141200&en=317cc8d50b3028e3&ei=5070

[G_j]

40. thank you, I was looking for a link for that story

I notice they didn't call these killings "goulish" and "horrifying".

[IndianaGreen]

41. Pictures of the incident were posted in DU

They may still be in the archives.

The Incident at Fallujah

by Maria Tomchick

On Monday, April 28, the US media focused on Donald Rumsfeld's trip to Baghdad, while a shocking event played out in a town just 30 miles to the west. US troops opened fire on Iraqi civilians, killing 15 people and wounding dozens of demonstrators protesting the US occupation of their town.

Piecing together what really happened in Fallujah is difficult; the main US news sources are contradictory and rely heavily on official military sources. But some truth can be found from careful sifting.

<snip>

Another dubious claim is that the protesters were celebrating Saddam's birthday; Knickmeyer attributes this quote to the operations director at US Central Command. She goes further with her own assumptions of demonstrators' goals that night: "...it appeared a clash of cultures, at least, was involved...Residents repeatedly denounced battalion members' use of binoculars and night-vision goggles. They accuse soldiers of spying on women from the school's upper floors and rooftop." She also earnestly describes Fallujah as, "a city long considered a stronghold of Saddam support and site of factories suspected of involvement in banned weapons programs" (never mind that no evidence has been found) and as a "Baath Party stronghold," lest we forget that the protesters are to blame for their own deaths.

http://eatthestate.org/07-18/IncidentatFallujah.htm

[G_j]

52. somebody mentioned here

that there was also a very recent incident of civilians killed by US soldiers in Fallujah. Are you aware of this story?

[charlie]

56. Followed by a second incident

just a fews days later, when a crowd protesting the first was fired upon:

IT started when a young boy hurled a sandal at a US jeep - it ended with two Iraqis dead and 16 seriously injured.

I watched in horror as American troops opened fire on a crowd of 1,000 unarmed people here yesterday.

Many, including children, were cut down by a 20-second burst of automatic gunfire during a demonstration against the killing of 13 protesters at the Al-Kaahd school on Monday.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12908278&method=full&siteid=50143

[theHandpuppet]

59. Here's another link...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/01/1621223

Check out the interview accompanying the article.

And we wonder why there is such rage in Fallujah. Where was the media outrage at their civilian dead?

[G_j]

60. and why don't they at least

include this in the context of recent events?

[theHandpuppet]

63. I'm honestly torn....

I sometimes think context is omitted due to lazy-ass journalists who aren't interested in anything beyond collecting a paycheck for reading scripted lines, other times I think it's by deliberate omission. The death of innocent Iraqis, including women and children, doesn't garner the ratings, after all. Toss in political bias, of course, and that only compounds the pathetic parade of what passes for "news" coming from most media outlets.

This is why I come to DU for my news sources. Via the contributions of the many posters here and the scores of links they provide, the truth can be weeded out for those willing to take the time.

I fear, however, that the majority of Americans are all too willing to accept the jingoism and sound byte "news" offered by the likes of the major networks and their hack anchors and commentators. Bottom line is, too many Americans don't WANT to think about what we're really doing over there if it so much as opens a crack in our armor of self-righteousness.

[G_j]

65. it just seems so transparent

the stories I've seen always include something about Fallujah being a hotbed of terrorist, Sadam loyalists. That this is the only focus and these other incidents are never mentioned seems like a deliberate attempt to keep Americans from understanding the context of this tragedy. Thats a pretty good description of spin control or out and out propaganda.

[realdeal22k]

45. Thank you!

That is a story I never heard. Thanks again...

[dpibel]

42. Obviously much different

Would your evaluation of radicalism be much different for people advocating women returning to their proper place of subservience to their husbands? Making sure women have no say over their own wombs? Things like that?

But hey! At least Christians let 'em keep their faces uncovered. Much better, that.

[TankLV]

64. Well, the so called "contractors" are psychotic mercenaries, for one.

White racists (members of Aryan Nation was one of the "poor victums") to boot.

Goons "protecting" the Halliburton gansters while they loot the countries, Iraq and the US Taxpayer.

[G_j]

38. the truth of the matter

"We should have left Saddam in place if we did not want Iraq to turn into another Iran."

I know it goes against the cherished assumptions that they all should want to follow the 'great white father' and be 'just like us'.

[NNN0LHI]

43. I suggested that a year ago and everyone thought I was nuts n/t

[leftchick]

47. You are absolutely right IG!

We all protested and predicted the opening of this pandora's box that is Iraq and now it is open. The civil war will commence with or without a US presence. I say Bring the Troops the fuck home NOW!

[Mari333]

50. amen we all knew this would happen

wayyyy before it started. we all knew. and now , our kids are sitting ducks in a shooting gallery.
even if we get them all out, it will be civil war. for years.
if they stay , they will be slaughtered for years.
in the meantime, a draft is on the way.
www.bushdraft.com
People make light hearted statements on here when they dont have anyone there in harms way. They will change their tunes soon when the draft comes.
http://www.bringthemhomenow.com

[KG]

49. these people are serious about attaining their freedom

better get used to this kind of thing.

[fob]

61. In the Us - Iraq war which ones are the

Israelis and which ones are the Palestinians? And can anyone explain what that means?

Israel says Palestinians are terrorists and they are defending their territory, Palestinians say Israelis are occupiers and they are freedom fighters.

The US (bushco*) says they are liberators and the Iraqis are terrorists (remember harboring terrorists = terrorists), Iraqis are fighting back against their occupiers (or liberators?).

Who's who?

And for extra credit: UN inspectors were there and quickly coming to realize there were probably no wmd's. With his reason for invasion about to be scuttled, bush* forced them out and sent our guys in. Why, if you believed so fiercely that saddam had wmd's would you send your troops in against them rather than back up the inspections and either prove they are there, as in EXACTLY WHERE, or prove that they are not there and uncover the "tyrant" for the paper tiger he is and not have to start a war at all?