Sorry.

[phrenzy]

I'm sorry for posting deliberately provocative threads regarding the military. Inside I know that it is not right to hold individuals of the military collectively responsible for things that they are bound to do for one reason or another (although there are choices made on an individual basis of course).

I just really blew a fuse when I saw this whole Falluja 'Pacification' business starting.

I admit to being somewhat prejudiced to "military types". Most of the ones I have met have been hardcore freepers and generally people that I didn't get along with.

Anyway, I honestly hope that there can be a peaceful resolution in Falluja. I don't want to see one more Iraqi / American shot over this.

I really wish some kind of disobedience movement could take place that would have the same impact and effect a policy change, but that doesn't look likely at this point.

[MadProphetMargin]

1. It's an emotional topic. No harm done.

I admit to being somewhat prejudiced to "military types". Most of the ones I have met have been hardcore freepers and generally people that I didn't get along with.

Not this retired grunt. Liberal to the bone. :thumbup:

Anyway, I honestly hope that there can be a peaceful resolution in Falluja. I don't want to see one more Iraqi / American shot over this.

Neither do I. Which is why Bush and his gang of thugs must go.

[phrenzy]

2. You know..

It's really tough too, because think of how many people joined the military to assist in the very legitimate and necessary operations against Al Qaeda and ended up getting served up this surprise.

I really feel for those people.

[MadProphetMargin]

5. By the way, most actual military members are NOT freepers.

Freepers like to THINK they speak for the military. They don't.

They are "cheerleaders"...only this, and nothing more.

[wuushew]

8. Most people are good hearted but lack complete knowledge

In war complex situations arise were the solider is unable to determine the reprecussions of his actions. This is why blame or praise is transferred up the chain of command. I imagine bomber crews in WW2 hand issues with attacking civilian population centers, but trusted that the leadership was working to bring the conflict to the swiftest and least bloody conclusion possible.

I don't believe the actions in Falluja are remotely My Lai-ish, but examples of poor leadership and poor personal behavior can be found in this conflict. The trick is determining at what level of hierarchy blame is appropriate when things go ary. Ultimately Bush is responsible, but since legal actions against him seem unlikely the best I can do is try to vote him out of office.

[mhr]

3. Honorably Discharged Naval Officer - Defiantly Liberal And Proud Of It

Not all military types fit the stereotype.

The blame for this mess falls squarely on the shoulders of GW Bush.

Direct your anger there not on the military.

[MadProphetMargin]

6. Look at congress, for example. How many GOP members served

vs how many Democrats?

That alone speaks volumes.

[Qanisqineq]

7. HEAR HEAR

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. The penalty for disobeying legal orders

in a combat zone is a firing squad. I know you may not understand this

Now there are people in the armed forces who happen to be Republicans, and soem even freepers, but don't generalize. My hubby and my brother in law are both USN Navy Retired Personnel, and they are LIBERALS.

SHOCKED now?

Moreover, while my husband was O'ver there, I was writing Congress, because there are many things going on right now where the armed forces are GETTIGN THE Nth Degree, but if you would pay attention, you would realize that even General and Flag Officers have been resisting. Why do yuo thnk Chief of Staff Erik Chinseki was... shall we say, encouraged to retire?

It was not becuase he was a bad officer, but because he dared say that he needed more troops... and he was told you need to do this.. he had NO CHOICE... since he got a legal order from the CiC... and if yuo have never been in the military I know this is a difficult concept to understand.

To a point you should thank that the miltiary is under civilian control and that when push comes to shove (Watergate) the military will protect the Constitution... I trust they will AGAIN, if need be.

[AlienGirl]

9. What safeguards could be/have been put into place

to prevent abuses by the US military?

I think that's a better way to approach this, rather than a blanket condemnation (or a blanket condoning, for that matter) of the military in general.

How are soldiers trained to recognize unlawful orders and selectively disobey them?

How might the military improve things to make instanes of abuse less likely? (For instance, maybe making sure soldiers don't get over-fatigued.)

Tucker

[Ekova]

10. It's getting a lot harder to stay on an even keel these days.

Understand that saying sorry illustrates a certain level of empathy for the feelings of the others here. We're all frustrated. The one thing that I find interesting about being here on these boards is that by and large, the community is really feeling something for the innocent people being hurt. I always try to remember that a great deal of the people in the military seem to be there because they are a patriot (not a nationalist) and it's a good way to get an education. Hell, it's why I almost joined the Canadian Armed Forces years ago when I finished high school. I'm sure a lot of them can't believe the turn it's taken. Look at the pictures of the soldiers that have died, they're not 50-60 year old products of the Industrial Society. They're 20-30 year olds that may have come to many of the same conclusions we here have arrived at.

[NJCher]

11. click 'n kill

I read phrenzy's other threads and while I think there is too much generalizing for this topic to be discussed in a way that would be revealing, evocative or interesting, there was one post that touched on something I've been thinking about a great deal:

phrenzy (368 posts) Mon Apr-05-04 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Exactly.

Nevermind that those same Marines can be seen on tape laughing as they shoot a wounded Iraqi rebel.

Or that they never have to have the pleasure of facing the THOUSANDS of corpses they got to mutilate from some comfy chair after punching in coordinates in a computer.


(from: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1345332)

The youngest generation of soldiers there really has grown up on a diet of violent computer games--click 'n kill. As a baby boomer who is quite technically proficient (but no kids), I was shocked to realize the depth of their addiction to such violent games. Several of my university students gave presentations about violent computer games and during their presentations, they had the games playing on monitors in the background. I truly was horrified at the violence. I had seen a few moments of Doom and some of the other games a long time ago and that was bad enough. But this-- ! I can hardly imagine what it must do to young minds.

Truly, for days afterwards all I could see in my mind was this constant beating, punching and kicking. Not to mention the shooting and violent explosions. If it had this effect on me--a mature adult--imagine what effect these violent images have on formative minds.

We've raised an entire generation of kids who have not only indulged in these games but who in many cases were addicted to them, playing them at the expense of their schoolwork and relationships with their families. When these very same kids go into a real life situation involving the familiar components of video games, what brain wiring is reactivated?

My question is what type of human being have we unleashed on the world?

The probable answer to that question scares me.


Cher