"Far left" issues I couldn't care about. Sorry.

[Paragon]

1. Global warming. Oh, I'm concerned about pollution...but like most self-absorbed Americans, it's got more to do with clean air, water, and streets than whether or not the Earth (which has been around for a long time) can somehow survive us humans. I want clean cars, clean water, quiet streets - because I've lived in major cities for the latter half of my life, and doing so is literally detrimental to your health.

2. The ethical treatment of animals. No, I'm not advocating beating up Fluffy -- I'm referring to eating, wearing, and doing scientific testing on animals. I don't eat a lot of red meat, don't wear fur (although I would look fabulous!) - but I'll defend the rights of people who do, especially from the nasty tactics of organizations like PETA. Yes, I know processing meat and milk is wasteful and bad for you. Welcome to America.

3. Conspiracies. You say LIHOP, I say MIHOP....let's call the whole thing off. Seriously - next time you have nothing to do, see how long you can keep a juicy secret between say, five people. Good luck.

Now I'm not oppressing your right to stump for these things -- merely expressing my informed opinion. I'm not a moderate, I probably agree with you on a lot of other things -- but on the long list of things to get done, these are pretty low on the priority list. I look forward to the day when war and poverty and hunger (and conservatism) are wiped off the face of the planet so we can worry about these issues. But not today, and probably not any time soon. Sorry.

[Vladimir]

1. I'm with you on number two

I guess its professional bias as a scientist but the animal-rights lobbies get on my nerves. But I think point three is not a right/left issue, its universal (although I happen to agree that consipracy theories are a waste of time). And for point one, well ultimately as long as you acknowledge that global warming exists and want environmentaly sound policy, then your motives are inconsequential.

V

[handywork]

15. I'm with you on animal testing

but only when it comes to life and death/serious illness. What i dont really condone is testing products like shampoo and makeup and shit like that on animals. At least not in the capacity they do now.

I don't know if you guys ever watch a show called Bullshit on showtime. But it's great. It's with Penn and Teller and they really do a good job on a lot of these issues you are talking about. Even though I don't always agree with them I think they are actually thinking about what they are talking about which you dont find that often anymore.

[RebelOne]

77. As an animal rights advocate, I am not with you on No. 2

[Raenelle]

84. Animal responsibility advocate--the primary ethic is kindness.

I just don't get the indifference to "fluffy" as it was so snarkily put.

[truthspeaker]

2. re: Global warming: of course the earth can survive it

The question is can WE survive it. A large component of environmentalism is self interest, but it's long-term self interest in stead of short term.

[Paragon]

8. Did you happen to catch the "Nova" on magnetic fields?

It was great -- intelligently postulating that the magnetic field naturally changes over time, raising the temperature of the planet in certain spots, until the polarity literally reverses and the process starts all over again.

We simply haven't been on the planet long enough to make sweeping statements about whether or not we affect climate change. Personally, I think the Earth laughs at our delusions of grandeur.

[truthspeaker]

11. I agree, but

While we don't know for sure, doesn't reducing emissions make sense? Why add one more variable?

[Paragon]

13. Read my initial post again.

I'd love to have emissions reduced -- but not because I'm worried about the Earth.

[handywork]

21. Exactly

And lower emissions is an easy step that could be taken. It's nothing drastic and at worst it helps us all breathe better.

on edit: spelling

[Jim__]

40. One does not preclude the other

I didn't see the "NOVA" on magnetic fields. But, even if magnetic fields affect the temperature of the earth; that does not at all preclude the fact that carbon dioxide affects the temperature of the earth. Carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas; i.e. it traps heat. We know that we have increased the amount of atmospheric carbon dioxide. There are a number of theories that state this won't change the temperature of the earth - those theories do entail dramatic changes to the earth's atmosphere, e.g. permanent high level cloud cover which blocks the sun's rays from entering.

Global Warming has gone far beyond the realm of esoteric theory. It's a fact. In 1988, James Hanson, a NASA scientist, testified before Congress that Global Warming was already here. The Global Warming skeptics ridiculed his assertions. Now, almost all Global Warming skeptics accept that it is here, and it is caused by human activity; they just claim that it won't be very severe. The temperature increase in the 90's exceeded the increase expected by the proponents - the skeptics case was weakened once again.

Of course the earth will survive. But, a number of island nations will not. And, the US will probably have a dramatic short-term drop in it food production. Short-term - doesn't sound too bad - does it? When Nebraska, Kansas and Iowa cease to be major food producers, you'll see how bad short-term can be.

[Aquarian_Conspirator]

128. Your making to much sense.

Don't expect Paragon to reply.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

137. Jim exactly

[K-W]

3. Eh

1. Sure it sucks when your city is dirty, it will suck more when it is underneath the ocean. Most importantly, there is room for both short and long term enviromentalism in our platform and both are terribly important. I think you should give this some more thought.

2. This isnt a liberal cause really. I dont hear much about it in any liberal media.

3. SOme conspiricies are a joke. Some are true.

[Touchdown]

4. Free Mumia

I don't know who the guy is, what he's innocent of, and could care less. He's one man. We have millions of people to worry about. We don't need to concentrate on a single individual.

And the PETA thing, with it's sponsorship of voilence...how did this become a "liberal" issue?

[truthspeaker]

6. I haven't studied the Mumia case but a friend of mine put it this way

"I'm pretty sure he didn't get a fair trial. I'm also pretty sure he's guilty."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

138. That sums it up 100%

nt

[drumwolf]

9. Yeah, I tuned out the whole "Free Mumia" thing too a long time ago.

He's been elevated to quasi-saint status by many in the far left. There was actually even a "Free Mumia" march through SF a couple of years back.

[corporatewhore]

73. yep we shouldnt care about people being executed/jailed

by the government because he spoke out. Have a nice Day !!!

[Bucky]

93. It's mostly hype. Sadly, the guy's almost certainly guilty.

There's plenty of wrongfully accused people who should be championed by the Left. But this case got the hype so Mumia gets the press. Mumia himself used to work as a DJ on a Philadelphia public radio station, so the exposure was a natural. He was only working as a cabbie at the time of his arrest, but he still had friends in the radio biz.

[right is wrong]

5. Conspiracies are not just for the left.

Remember Vince Foster???

[K-W]

7. More of an overall person issue, this thread is quite off

only global warming is actually a liberal issue, and on that he is being shortsighted.

[Minstrel Boy]

10. Climate change a "far left" concern?!?

Keee-rist, we're in trouble.

In 1998, the world's biggest super computer predicted a runaway greenhouse effect by 2050. Have any idea what that would mean?

"For many years, scientists wondered why Venus has an atmosphere so hot that lead and tin actually melt in it. Only in the late 1990s they realised that Venus too has undergone the runaway greenhouse effect. Its atmosphere is so dense, incoming solar heat cannot escape from it."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1341548

[Paragon]

16. Hey, I kinda liked "Waterworld".

Personally, I can't wait to grow gills. :7

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Then you ought to be considered about global warming,

Because if a runaway greenhouse effect kicks in around 2050, the oceans will evaporate.

On the other hand, you may be dead by then, so why should you give a shit. Right?

[Paragon]

25. FYI

That joke was a polite way of dismissing your doomsday scenario.

So...it's bad for the Bushies to campaign on fear of terrorism, but it's ok to sound the high alert on global warming? Any sort of "panic" like this appeals to the lowest common denominator.

[Minstrel Boy]

37. If only we could panic about the correct things,

I'd be much less worried about the future of this planet.

Some things are desperate enough to merit panic.

[Vladimir]

41. For example

I often wish that we would all spend more time panicking about what happens when the oil runs out. It will, whether 10, 25, 50, 100 years from now, and at this rate we will be nowhere near ready.

V

[mantis49]

45. 2050 may be too far off.

The Pentagon is making contingency plans for a lot sooner than that, according to Fortune Magazine.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html

And from the Guardian:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4864237-102275,00.html



I find these terrifying.

[Lorien]

116. My reaction as well

and no, he/she obviously has NO IDEA what a runaway greenhouse effect would mean!

I have a friend in the Antarctic who has been studying climate change for 40 years. Many of his ominous predictions have come true (massive ice Fields melting, changes in weather patterns, etc. ) but far AHEAD OF SCHEDULE. He and his international team have been warning governments of the horrors to come for years now, but since most people out there are like the poster of this thread, nothing has changed-in fact things are getting much worse. I've wanted to have children of my own, but I won't because of what I know is coming.

[Bridget Burke]

12. And why should your inability to care interest us?

1) No doubt the earth will survive. With or without the pesky humans.

2) Yes, PETA can be annoying. They're just one organization, though.

3) Obviously, this is the main point of your message. So, how did a Lone Gunman carry out the attacks of 9/11? Since you don't believe in "conspiracies".....

You pay too much attention to rightist robots bleating about the "far left".

[el_gato]

14. about number 3

Are you saying that the thugs in PNAC were not hoping for aother Pearl Harbor when it says so right in their own literature? The same for CFR types.

It is not a "juicy secret" as you want to claim. The history of U.S. foreign policy is fraught with manipulation of not only the citizens of this country but that of other governments across the planet.

The people who want to use the word conspiracy and then also use simplistic launguage to describe it are disingenous at best primarily becuase these dismissals are delivered in a way that refuses to take a hard look at the elitist power structure that controls U.S. foreign policy. As well, these mechanisms for control are deep and encompases the entire corporate media structure.

The people at the top who want to run the world with an Iron fist are many and includes democrats as well as rupublicans.

[Paragon]

18. Oh, they got what they wanted

They're just not bright enough to have pulled it off on purpose.

[GregW]

17. I have a few ...

Wal-Mart - They have good prices, they carry the brands I like, they are close to my house. I'm more worried about ME surviving than the people working there or the manufacturers getting screwed.

Microsoft - They make the software that makes my world go round. They aren't going away. Live with it.

Union - Unions fucked Australia when I lived there. They almost drove my company to bankruptcy. Australian union workers are lazy slobs (IMHO).

Gun Control - I am pro-gun ... but like the laws the way they are now. Don't repeal anything.

[K-W]

22. so you:

-Support consumerism over labor.
-Like the current class structure because it gets you stuff at wal-mart.
-Are anti-union
-Pro Gun
-Pro monopolized industry.

So... you are a neoconservative republican. Congrats.

[GregW]

28. Cool! I love it when people 'label' me

It's like when they tell me where I have to shop and what to buy. It seems so ... so ... so ... FASCIST.

[K-W]

36. lol, you have a quite an interesting relationship with logic, dont you?

YOu expressed a series of political beliefs that were not liberal, and in fact fit well with conservative views of the world. Im sorry that it bugs you that i pointed that out.

I dont think I ever suggested where you should shop, but I would suggest you do ALOT of reading on Facism before you throw that word around so inappropriately.

[Pithlet]

85. Shopping at Walmart may benefit you in the short term.

But are the long term effects worth it? No one is telling you where to shop. You are on a message board, after all, so they really can't do that.

WalMart may not be your pet issue. We all have different causes that resonate with us. But, pointing out the harm that WalMart does to this country in countless ways is not fascist. You may want to look up the definition of that word, and proper usage.

[Djinn]

90. Right...

"Union - Unions fucked Australia when I lived there. They almost drove my company to bankruptcy. Australian union workers are lazy slobs (IMHO)."

How long did you live here??? the lousy unions got us 8 hour days, sick leave, paid holidays, health and safety laws and anti-discrimination laws.

On a personal note they stopped me getting totally screwed by a vile boss - but then again YOU don't care about workers getting screwed, so long as you'er alright...liberals like these who needs repugs...

Edit: as for australian union workers b eing lazy - I've had a job since it was legal for me to have one - worked 30 hours a week plus WHILE I was a full time student and currently work roughly 10 hours a week overtime without getting paid for it because the govts refuse to properly fund the health sector wheer I work.

[DenverDem]

20. You have a right to be selfish, uncompassionate, and fear the truth.

I have a right to think your priorites are screwed up.

Your opinions don't seem too "informed" to me.

[Paragon]

27. You're absolutely right.

Why the hell am I worried about war, famine, death, oppression...when someone is using an aerosol spray?

[el_gato]

34. well Paragon you obviously don't know about this issue

the aerosol issue is related to Ozone depletion

while the global warming issue refers to the dumping of CO2 in our atmosphere.

In 1999 the U.S. alone dumped over 1500 million metric tons of carbon into the atomosphere.

maybe you don't worry about these issues because you don't know very much about them.

[redqueen]

46. I hate to say this, but "Ding Ding Ding!"

"maybe you don't worry about these issues because you don't know very much about them"

[Paragon]

49. Then don't say it.

I know plenty. If you prefer Chicken Little to reasonable debate on the subject, then there really is nothing further to say.

[redqueen]

53. He's right

You don't seem to know enough about Global Warming to have a debate about it.

Oh well! You don't care anyway, right?

[tom_paine]

67. Usually I agree with and respect your posts

but if you fail to take into account the last 5000 years of human behavior, and the numerous "conspiracy theories" that have already turned out to be true in recent history.

If crimes such as Watergate, COINTELPRO, the Horst Wessel Murder, the Enron Theft, the Reichstag Fire and other "wacky conspiracy theories" which turned out to be true.

If you believe that America is immune from human behavior as it has existed since history began (and indeed, unless Watergate, COINTELPRO, and Iran-Contra were utter 100% fabrications, are still going on until VERY recently), then who could reasonably discvuss anythign with someone who dismisses everything out of hand like that?

How could I be expected to be reasonable if your first and foremeost premise is that "conspiracy theories", in direct contravention of 6000 years of recorde human history, are automatically untrue?

How could I be reasonable in response to a blanket denial like that?

Yes, I suppose there is nothing to say to someone who denies 6000 years of human history.

[DenverDem]

59. These issues you don't care about are the roots of war, famine, death

and opression.

Global warming is caused by the rich world's overindulgance in energy use without caring about the impact on the rest of the world. This overindulgance and waste leads to a lack of sustainablility for the poorer nations and people in the world. This resultant poverty leads to destabilized cultures that cause wars between the haves and the have nots.

Living in denial about the abuse of sentient beings, animals, for the greed and laziness of humans, leads directly to a lack of respect for all life, including human life. This leads directly to acceptance of war as an acceptable foreign relations policy and discompassionate attitudes in general.

Living in denial about the machinations of the Power Elite to control what they term "the cattle" allows them to continue to pit classes, races and nations against each other so that they can continue their megomaniacle manipulations and further consolidate their power and wealth. Bringing the fact of these "conspiracies" to light is the only way that a sustainable and fair world culture can develop.

These "far left" issues, as you term them, are actually the most core issues that must be dealt with before war, famine, death and opression can be defeated.

[forgethell]

23. I with you on all three, by the way,

I can't stand it anymore. What do LIHOP & MIHOP mean? Thanks.

[K-W]

26. Cant stand what anymore?

And by the way
LIHOP - Let it happen on purpose. That the Bush administration was aware of at least the possibility of such an attack and purposely did not take the steps to stop it because it would be politically expedient to have an attack on our soil.

MIHOP - Made it happen on purpose. That the Bush administration was materially involved in the event.

[tom_paine]

33. He can;t stand that Watergate turned out to be more than a "theory"

Or the Tuskeegee Experiments.
COINTELPRO.
Enron's purposefully maniuplating the energy market to stealBILLIONS from Kallie-Forneeya

You know, all those crazy conspiracy theories that turned out to be the delusions of nut jobs.

[redqueen]

48. lol

Great post! I should make alist of all the 'nutjob conspiracy fearmongering BS' things that have been backed up by hard evidence so that it can be pasted quickly into each and every 'oh so what it's not really that big of a deal just a bunch of conspiracy theory crap' kind of threads. :)

[forgethell]

81. Can't stand not knowing about LIHOP & MIHOP n/t

[DenverDem]

61. Shouldn't your screen name be "forgetall"?

Or, perhaps, "ignoreall"?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[forgethell]

132. Would you care to explicate? n/t

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paragon]

32. Wow.

Thanks for proving my point much better than I ever could. Kudos.

[NaderIsMyHero]

42. Good come back..LOL...let me quess you weren't ...

on the debating in school. Geez...I wish I was as reasonable as you..oh well I will just have to live in ignorance.

[Paragon]

44. If you actually debated in that fashion...

...you'd get laughed off the stage.

[thebigidea]

70. as opposed to the chuckles you'd get pretending GW doesn't exist

[Occulus]

29. responses

and I don't consider myself "far left."

1. Global warming is an issue that doesn't threaten the Earth, because you're right: the Earth has been around for a very long time, and it will certainly survive us- unless we crack it open or maybe knock it off orbit with a few 300 megaton thermonuclear bombs. No, global warming doesn't threaten the Earth- it threatens the very existence of the human species. There are already over six billion of us here, so what happens when those people are pushed ever closer and closer together due to loss of coastal areas as the ice caps melt? What happens if glaciers dump a whole pile of fresh water into the North Atlantic? If those currents were to shut down.....

2. The ethical treatment of animals doesn't seem to be valid position in any case. If PETA were to have its way, there would never again be a cure that actually works; they claim we can use computers but we really can't yet- we can't yet accurately simulate biological processes and that may well take decades to perfect- and without accurate computer simulations, animal testing must continue. Saying we can't use animals in medical testing is like saying we have to let people die because animals are more important. That's just sick.

3. As for LIHOP, that's a distinct probability at this point. There is simply far, far too much evidence that there was a military plan in place before 9/11, just waiting to be put into action. According to "Rebuilding America's Defenses," when speaking of a big bump in military spending and the need for the same, Project for a New American Century claimed that it would not be possible "absent a catastrophic and catalyzing event, such as a modern day Pearl Harbor." This was written well before 9/11 took place; the document also mentions by name Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, later dubbed by President Bush in his SOTU speech as the "axis of evil." These things and these alone tell me this group of people was only waiting for "something" to happen so they could use it politically to achieve the ends set forth in the PNAC report mentioned above. The point to this is that they all, every single one of them, have strong personal motivation to keep things a secret for as long as possible. No one would ever actually believe such a conspiracy exists, which is why it was hidden in plain sight in the PNAC report.

It would be very easy for any administration to obfuscate and delay intelligence from within, later to claim that they knew nothing whilst the entire time waiting for their "catastrophic and catalyzing event." This, apparently, is precisely what the Bush administration has done. The fact that it did, essentially, nothing at all during the summer of 2001 to address al Qaeda despite clear and very visible warnings that there was about to be a strike, combined with the existence of "Rebuilding America's Defenses" well before 9/11, and added to the Bush administration's opposition to the formation of the 9/11 commission, his initial appointment of Henry Kissinger as the chair (!!), Condoleeza's initial refusal to testify in public, and to top it all off Bush's "need" for Cheney to be by his side to give joint testimony (probably so they don't contradict each other by giving separate testimony).... all these things add up to a criminal conspiracy to allow a terrorist attack to take place on American soil and facilitate both a political "clean sweep" and make a bid for a global arrest of power. There's a reason criminal conspiracy statutes exist, and if this group doesn't fit the bill, I just don't know what on God's green Earth does.

[gandalf]

142. Very well put!

Especially your points 1 and 3.

[skypilot]

30. "...see how long you can keep a juicy secret..."

So do you think that everything nasty, shady, dishonest thing ever planned or carried out has come to light? Do you think that we know all the secrets there are to know about what our government is or has been up to? All those file marked TOP SECRET have probably been read by more than five people. Do YOU know what's in them?

[Aquarian_Conspirator]

111. Wow, I thought the CIA was able to keep it's secrets because...

they only hired 4 people. I guess that kind of proves Paragon wrong, now doesn't it. Kind of casts a shadow of doubt upon the amount of rational thought he's put into this post.

[NuttyFluffers]

31. don't feel bad, you are part of the colorful spectrum

:grouphug:

personally i'm interested in all of those issues, but i have varying degrees of interest.

global warming is a big issue for me. really should change our bad,wasteful habits. i may not want children, but i feel it'd be very selfish of me to leave a miserable world for everyone else's grandkids, great grandkids, and so on.

animal rights. i don't like PETA - outright. but i do believe we are deeply wasteful of animals. and animal cruelty is just a short step away from human cruelty - so i'm very concerned about putting to justice people who are inhumane about their treatment of animals. i consider it preventative action. but i love eating meat, like leather, and find jell-o tasty. i believe we can use animals (just like domestic ones use us for species survival), but i don't encourage abuse of animals.

conspiracy theories. well, i respect freedom of speech. and i also know that it isn't unheard of that some truth in stories tend to slip through the cracks. so even though i scorn wild baseless speculation i'm willing to listen to those who offer information that wasn't normally apparent and their hypotheses. i don't ever assume they are right, but who knows, they might dig up useful pieces of the historical puzzle. and more information dug up is better, even if it has a by-product of some people generating wildly bizarre hypotheses.

my take. but i appreciate other views (though i prefer scholarship and quality research and analysis). we are a rainbow of opinions and views - it's great.

[SheilaT]

35. The specific things I don't care about

don't need to be listed here -- but thanks to all who shared theirs. My motto is fast becoming, So many conspiracies, so little time. Any one person can only put so much energy out and really needs to pick and choose which things will matter the most and get that energy.

Every so often you'll meet someone who doesn't understand that, who is enthusiastic about every single cause, wants to right every single wrong in the world, in invariably (in my experience) those people wind up accomplishing absolutely nothing.

[Toucano]

51. A lot of issues are interconnected

It's good to stand back sometimes and see how one change you can fight for will improve several problems.

That's how I avoid getting bogged down by each little issue.

[KharmaTrain]

38. The Older You Get, The Less World You Want To Save

I have an agreement with my son...he can save whales and rain forests and do all those great things I felt strongly about 30 years ago, but I've realized not only my mortality, but what I can affect and what I can't.

I totally agree with the post above. While I'm concerned about the broad scope of what humans are doing to mess up our environment (notice OUR...as opposed to the Earth...I agree it will survive no matter what mess we make of it) and that we could float away or fry. But I'm 50, things that will happen in 2050 (when I'm surely doubt I'll be among the living) are of less consequence to me than my son. He'll have his chance by then to make his own mark and difference.

I'm more concerned about the world we live in for the next 5 to 10 years...one step at a time. The economy, the people who are in charge of this country and the immediate world I can affect through my work and good fortune.

Right now, priority one, and far and away the most important, is to wrestle at least one branch of our government away from the Reich Wing and start the process of restoring some form of representative government to this country. Executive is nice, Legislative is the real goal!

[Zookeeper]

62. Yes...

I still care about global warming, whales and rainforests. But, my perspective now is that the best chance of progress on those issues is making sure we have an adminstration that isn't hell-bent on crony capitalism which exploits and destroys the earth's resources.

With Democrats in power, we have a fighting chance on those issues. With Repugs, the battle is lost.

[Djinn]

94. or the more you sell out

[KharmaTrain]

123. Well, I'm A Sell Out If...

I can now give regular contributions to many worthwhile organizations...carefully chosen...giving them more funds to make the changes we agree are needed...and my giving increases, not decreases as I succede in the business world.

My wife and I spend a minimum of 20 hours a week in various organizations from Girl Scouts to PTA to a Center for the Disabled, and now can dedicate more time and resources as my business continues to grow and others take over things I previously did.

I've assisted many in setting up their own businesses...fulfilling their dreams and goals and using their creative talents in a way they can support themselves and flourish.

Since I can't save whales, guess I'm a sell out.

[Lorien]

117. Short term gains at the expense of the future

hasen't that been job #1 for the GOP?

[charlie]

39. Conspiracies?

Heavens to Betsy, thanks for the reality check. If a scenario includes more than one person, it's FALSE, impossible, never happened -- lone actors are the only agents with the juice to change history.

[rock]

47. Very funny charlie

As you so wittingly point out: it only takes two to be a conspiracy. I dare say most crimes evolve from a conspiracy.

[charlie]

63. John Gotti woud've loved him in his neighborhood

Oh, woe! My business gets burglarized every month, my brother-in-law was whacked last week, and my Pops is terrorized into paying $1000 to scary thugs every 4 Mondays. Who's behind this? WHO COULD IT BE??! Woe is me...

Y'all will have to forgive me if I cast a hairy eyeball at the party that derailed the Paris Peace Talks, engineered the October Surprise, and was behind the multitude crimes of Election 2000 first when something rotten happens...

[leftofthedial]

43. Re: conspiracies

3. Conspiracies. You say LIHOP, I say MIHOP....let's call the whole thing off. Seriously - next time you have nothing to do, see how long you can keep a juicy secret between say, five people. Good luck.

History gives us numerous examples of long-lasting conspiracies. How long did stealth technology stay secret? And then it was announced, not leaked.

Also, it is not necessary to keep 100% secrecy. You just need to be able to neutralize, eliminate, or discredit leakers. In fact, "innoculation" is often part of the planned conspiracy. Leak some accurate and some inaccurate information, smear and ridicule the messenger into oblivion. Then give the media some juicy real news and they'll drop it too.

It also is a good idea to widely and loudly publicize a cover story, no matter how implausible. If you say it loudly and long enough, it becomes the accepted version. When you own the media, this is easy to do.

Another tactic is to employ moles to publicly ridicule the whole notion of conspiracies. Virtually all of human history has been driven by one conspiracy or another. Ridiculing them is absurd on its face.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stopthegop]

55. before impugning the intelligence of someone

because they disagee with you...you might want to check spelling of words in your profile...

seriously...what link is there between lung cancer and global warming..or anything except smoking tobacco?

[redqueen]

57. "Thinks" hell... they KNOW

This kind of blase dismissal of serious issues just disgusts me to no end.

Lumping LIHOP and Global Warming in with PETA. :crazy:

:grr:

[redqueen]

52. Wow, the Pentagon even recognizes the danger of global warming

The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
The climate could change radically, and fast. That would be the mother of all national security issues.
By David Stipp

Global warming may be bad news for future generations, but let's face it, most of us spend as little time worrying about it as we did about al Qaeda before 9/11. Like the terrorists, though, the seemingly remote climate risk may hit home sooner and harder than we ever imagined. In fact, the prospect has become so real that the Pentagon's strategic planners are grappling with it.

The threat that has riveted their attention is this: Global warming, rather than causing gradual, centuries-spanning change, may be pushing the climate to a tipping point. Growing evidence suggests the ocean-atmosphere system that controls the world's climate can lurch from one state to another in less than a decade—like a canoe that's gradually tilted until suddenly it flips over. Scientists don't know how close the system is to a critical threshold. But abrupt climate change may well occur in the not-too-distant future. If it does, the need to rapidly adapt may overwhelm many societies—thereby upsetting the geopolitical balance of power.

Though triggered by warming, such change would probably cause cooling in the Northern Hemisphere, leading to longer, harsher winters in much of the U.S. and Europe. Worse, it would cause massive droughts, turning farmland to dust bowls and forests to ashes. Picture last fall's California wildfires as a regular thing. Or imagine similar disasters destabilizing nuclear powers such as Pakistan or Russia—it's easy to see why the Pentagon has become interested in abrupt climate change.
--------

You just may get to witness firsthand how dangerous attitudes like the one you seem to be espousing (that being - hey, it doesn't concern me, so so what?) are.

[Cocoa]

54. open your mind

why write these things off, why not just keep listening, what could that hurt?

[Zorra]

56. "The end of living, and the beginning of survival"

Chief Seattle's Thoughts - 1851

How can you buy or sell the sky, the warmth of the land? The idea is strange to us.

If we do not own the freshness of the air and the sparkle of the water, how can you buy them?

Every part of this earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries the memories of the red man.

The white man's dead forget the country of their birth when they go to walk among the stars. Our dead never forget this beautiful earth, for it is the mother of the red man. We are part of the earth and it is part of us. The perfumed flowers are our sisters; the deer, the horse, the great eagle, these are our brothers. The rocky crests, the juices in the meadows, the body heat of the pony, and man --- all belong to the same family.

So, when the Great Chief in Washington sends word that he wishes to buy our land, he asks much of us. The Great Chief sends word he will reserve us a place so that we can live comfortably to ourselves. He will be our father and we will be his children.

So, we will consider your offer to buy our land. But it will not be easy. For this land is sacred to us. This shining water that moves in the streams and rivers is not just water but the blood of our ancestors. If we sell you the land, you must remember that it is sacred, and you must teach your children that it is sacred and that each ghostly reflection in the clear water of the lakes tells of events and memories in the life of my people. The water's murmur is the voice of my father's father.

The rivers are our brothers, they quench our thirst. The rivers carry our canoes, and feed our children. If we sell you our land, you must remember, and teach your children, that the rivers are our brothers and yours, and you must henceforth give the rivers the kindness you would give any brother.

We know that the white man does not understand our ways. One portion of land is the same to him as the next, for he is a stranger who comes in the night and takes from the land whatever he needs. The earth is not his brother, but his enemy, and when he has conquered it, he moves on. He leaves his father's grave behind, and he does not care. He kidnaps the earth from his children, and he does not care. His father's grave, and his children's birthright are forgotten. He treats his mother, the earth, and his brother, the sky, as things to be bought, plundered, sold like sheep or bright beads. His appetite will devour the earth and leave behind only a desert.

I do not know. Our ways are different than your ways. The sight of your cities pains the eyes of the red man. There is no quiet place in the white man's cities. No place to hear the unfurling of leaves in spring or the rustle of the insect's wings. The clatter only seems to insult the ears. And what is there to life if a man cannot hear the lonely cry of the whippoorwill or the arguments of the frogs around the pond at night? I am a red man and do not understand. The Indian prefers the soft sound of the wind darting over the face of a pond and the smell of the wind itself, cleaned by a midday rain, or scented with pinon pine.

The air is precious to the red man for all things share the same breath, the beast, the tree, the man, they all share the same breath. The white man does not seem to notice the air he breathes. Like a man dying for many days he is numb to the stench. But if we sell you our land, you must remember that the air is precious to us, that the air shares its spirit with all the life it supports.

The wind that gave our grandfather his first breath also receives his last sigh. And if we sell you our land, you must keep it apart and sacred as a place where even the white man can go to taste the wind that is sweetened by the meadow's flowers.

So we will consider your offer to buy our land. If we decide to accept, I will make one condition - the white man must treat the beasts of this land as his brothers.

I am a savage and do not understand any other way. I have seen a thousand rotting buffaloes on the prairie, left by the white man who shot them from a passing train. I am a savage and do not understand how the smoking iron horse can be made more important than the buffalo that we kill only to stay alive.

What is man without the beasts? If all the beasts were gone, man would die from a great loneliness of the spirit. For whatever happens to the beasts, soon happens to man. All things are connected.

You must teach your children that the ground beneath their feet is the ashes of our grandfathers. So that they will respect the land, tell your children that the earth is rich with the lives of our kin. Teach your children that we have taught our children that the earth is our mother. Whatever befalls the earth befalls the sons of earth. If men spit upon the ground, they spit upon themselves.

This we know; the earth does not belong to man; man belongs to the earth. This we know. All things are connected like the blood which unites one family. All things are connected.

Even the white man, whose God walks and talks with him as friend to friend, cannot be exempt from the common destiny. We may be brothers after all. We shall see. One thing we know which the white man may one day discover; our God is the same God.

You may think now that you own Him as you wish to own our land; but you cannot. He is the God of man, and His compassion is equal for the red man and the white. The earth is precious to Him, and to harm the earth is to heap contempt on its creator. The whites too shall pass; perhaps sooner than all other tribes. Contaminate your bed and you will one night suffocate in your own waste.

But in your perishing you will shine brightly fired by the strength of the God who brought you to this land and for some special purpose gave you dominion over this land and over the red man.

That destiny is a mystery to us, for we do not understand when the buffalo are all slaughtered, the wild horses are tamed, the secret corners of the forest heavy with the scent of many men and the view of the ripe hills blotted by talking wires.

Where is the thicket? Gone. Where is the eagle? Gone.

The end of living and the beginning of survival.

[redqueen]

60. I heard or read a quote which I wish I remembered

If anyone knows it please let me know...

Something attributed to a Native American, along the lines of 'all those who believe in going to a paradise after death should go there, and leave the earth to those of us who care for her'.

[hippie_chic]

69. Speech Attributed to Chief Seattle is Bogus

Ummmmmmmm...that speech attributed to Chief Seattle is completely bogus.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/seattle.htm

[Fleshdancer]

58. I'm with you

My major concern (at the moment) with environmental issues is our nasty oil addiction and the need for reusable energy resources.

As far as ethical treatment of animals go, I'm a Humane Society kind of gal rather than a PETA gal. That's just me. Don't beat/torture your pets, spay and neuter etc but other than that...well I'm more focused on the ethical treatment of humans around the world. Once we have that tackled, then I'll move on to other species. Besides, a big juicy steak is yuuuummmy. :evilgrin:

I view conspiracy theories the same way I view astrology. Maybe there's something to it, maybe there's not, but either way it's entertaining to read. I just choose not to buy too much into it most of the time.

[rman]

64. if the secret benefits all of those who are in on it..

..moreover, if disclosure of the secret would be deprimental to those involved,
then you can bet they will be very motivated not to speak about it to the wrong person.

Which doesn't mean it will never come out, but untill it does the conspiracy is working.

Anyway, i can only advise you not to take part in discussions about those issues that you don't care about.

[Toucano]

65. Which "far left" issues DO you care about? n/t

[NNadir]

68. The inclusion of "Global Warming" doesn't strike me as too bright.

Believe it or not, unless you're in your seventies or eighties, or plan to otherwise die, your ass in on the line on this issue, not just your air conditioning bill, but the price of food you eat, the electricity you burn (powerplants in Europe shut down this summer because of lack of cooling water), and many other factors. This will bite your indifferent ass a lot sooner than you think in a direct, economically indentifiable way.

Neither is this a "far left" issue. "Far leftists" you will recall, declared the 2000 Democratic nominee as indistinguishable from Bush, even though Mr. Gore had a very realistic assessment of the problem, and Bush, well, is Bush. The only way these folks could fail to make a distinction between Bush and Gore was if Greenhouse effect was invisible to them.

Anyway, your only interest seems to be self-interest: "What's in it for me?" You're not necessarily someone I would invite to dinner in my home. I consider myself fairly moderate, but the reasoning you give for #1 leaves me a poor impression of you.

[IrateCitizen]

72. Global Warming is a "far left" issue? Says who?

According to most people in the rest of the industrialized world, global warming is not a "far left" issue, but rather a paramount issue that affects everyone who resides on this big blue marble flying through space.

Trivializing it as somehow not worthy of your attention is classic "Amerocentric" thinking. IOW, it's indicative of a trait that pisses off pretty much all of the rest of the world.

[G_j]

115. yep

pisses me off too, but nothing like the coming generations who will think of us as selfish, short sighted suicidal fools and probably hate us for refusing to act in time.

I'd say in as few as ten years most people trivializing climate change will be seriously changing their tune. It will be inescapable, and probably too late.

[muriel_volestrangler]

131. Yeah, that well known far leftist Margaret Thatcher

was worried about it 15 years ago.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1211

But then, she had a genuine science degree from Oxford, rather than a legacy history major from Yale.

[JCMach1]

74. Visit me in the UAE in august and I will introduce you to global warming

50 centrigade plus tempereatures with 100 percent humidity...

[Q]

75. GWB* (also known as Gilligan) loves this type of American...

...good luck.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

79. Yes he does. eom

[G_j]

119. TRUE "Secret email gives advice on denying climate change"

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0404-01.htm
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4894758-102275,00.html

Published on Sunday, April 4, 2004 by the Observer/UK

Bush Attacks Environment 'Scare Stories'
Secret email gives advice on denying climate change

by Antony Barnett in New York

George W. Bush's campaign workers have hit on an age-old political tactic to deal with the tricky subject of global warming - deny, and deny aggressively.

The Observer has obtained a remarkable email sent to the press secretaries of all Republican congressmen advising them what to say when questioned on the environment in the run-up to November's election. The advice: tell them everything's rosy.

It tells them how global warming has not been proved, air quality is 'getting better', the world's forests are 'spreading, not deadening', oil reserves are 'increasing, not decreasing', and the 'world's water is cleaner and reaching more people'.

The email - sent on 4 February - warns that Democrats will 'hit us hard' on the environment. 'In an effort to help your members fight back, as well as be aggressive on the issue, we have prepared the following set of talking points on where the environment really stands today,' it states.

The memo - headed 'From medi-scare to air-scare' - goes on: 'From the heated debate on global warming to the hot air on forests; from the muddled talk on our nation's waters to the convolution on air pollution, we are fighting a battle of fact against fiction on the environment - Republicans can't stress enough that extremists are screaming "Doomsday!" when the environment is actually seeing a new and better day.'

...more...

[drfemoe]

125. we are just lucky

that ignorance is displayed on a regular basis. People are starting to notice. And with the history of telling lies, just be certain the opposite is True.

[Guaranteed]

121. I think of this stuff

as the left's equivalent of the right's religious fundamentalism and cultural isolationism. That's not to say that I dismiss these kinds of concerns as unfounded, but I do think that they're used as tests of loyalty and wedge issues in the same way that the right uses religion and racism.

[Triple H]

76. PETA is evil...

they go to extremes to get their point across. No one listens to people like them. They have good ideas, but they need to implement their plans a lot better(and more maturely) instead of spray-painting people's $3,000 mink coats.

IMO, I don't really care if animals (cattle, chickens, turkeys, etc..more specifically) are slaughtered for food. They are raised specifically for our consumption. I love meat.

[Heyo]

78. I'm with you all the way and then some....

If you were to represent the age of the Earth on the face of a clock. (12 hours).. the entire history of civilization represents 1/15th of a second. The earth will shake us off like a common cold. One big volcanic eruption releases more CO2 into the air than years worth of Escalades Navigators....the equatorial ocean temperatures were higher than they are now even 2 thousand years ago.

I'm not saying we should rampantly polute the environment.. but all this doom and gloom being preached for as long as I can remember about global warming... I don't buy it. I just tend not to believe crap that people drum in my ear without thinking for myself.. the harder people try and "sell" something.. the more I think it must be bullshit.

on #2. I am a carnivore.... I have no qualms about eating beef, chicken, tirkey... and I don't care how it gets to the supermarket as long as they animals aren't being treated with exessive unnecessary cruelty, and it's safe to eat and taste good...

On #3, I just say amen.. I think some of the MIHOP and LIHOPers will run from they notion that they once believed them.

Heyo

[Guaranteed]

86. Totally agreed.

My position on the environment is that anyone who thinks that WE can destroy the EARTH, even with nukes, is awfully arrogant. We're at the mercy of the Earth, not the other way around. Any power we're given is given to us BY the Earth.

My other issue that isn't mentioned in this thread, as far as I can see, is the return of this PC crap. And gun control. Those two issues have lost us more elections than taxes have.

[Djinn]

96. it's not about "destroying the earth"

it's about destroying our ability to live on it.

[Guaranteed]

100. A very rational response.

Thank you.

I agree that we need to make sure our environment stays livable. Unfortunately, I don't see that as being up to us. There's nothing we can do. We're either going to find some kind of dynamic equilibrium with our planet, or we're not. Probably not- I'm not sure that dynamic equilibriums are possible.

In any case, in the long run, everything changes. Everything dies. Forever is an awful long time, so I don't think that we can expect our species to never die off.

What we CAN hope for, though, is evolution. We have to keep moving forward- we can't grasp onto the way things are and hope that they never change, because that's just not up to us.

[Djinn]

110. so who IS it up to then

"I agree that we need to make sure our environment stays livable. Unfortunately, I don't see that as being up to us"

God, the monkeys?

[Guaranteed]

120. LOL

The Earth does what it wants to do. Like I said before, we're at the mercy of the Earth, not the other way around. To think that we have that much effect on our planet is arrogant. We're not that powerful.

[G_j]

126. do you have any idea

what it means when a species goes extinct?
They are not 'reborn'. I guess you don't mind a world minus thousands/millions of life forms? If whales for example, were to dissappear there is every chance they would never be seen again on this planet in a million years, let alone be appreciated by our grandchildern, and the same goes for millions of other species.

[Guaranteed]

127. Species are continuously dying out and springing into existence.

Yes. It's true. But, that's nature. She's a...an asshole.

On edit: G- you're not fighting humanity. You're fighting nature.

The planet is much, much bigger than us. It's going to do what "it wants to" (or however you want to put it). What we have to do is keep moving forward. We can't try to grab onto the way things are and keep them that way- it not only wouldn't work, but it wouldn't be healthy. When things don't keep changing, they get really rancid...

[Heyo]

145. And that's human's fault?

Did you know 99 percent of species that ever existed were already extinct before we got here?

Heyo

[Art_from_Ark]

89. How much do you know about science?

I have a very close relationship with the scientific community here in Japan, including some of its most prestigious research institutes. The general consensus among these scientists, who for the most part are not driven by ideology but rather by a quest for knowledge, is that global warming is, indeed, a real problem.

[Tweek]

92. I'm very familiar with science...

I'm a geology and a chemistry major, and I too agree that global warming is a real problem. We're ruining the air on this planet at an alarming rate...and people don't seem to care? Go to the Sierra Club's website and find out the truth about global warming. All the info is there.

As for the animals and their consumption for meat...I have no problems with it. I love my meat and I don't really care how it gets to the store...as long as it's safe and tastes good.

[Art_from_Ark]

99. Here's what JAXA, Japan's version of NASA, has to say:

Global Warming Enhances Ozone Transport from the Stratosphere to the Troposphere
-Further Accelerates Global Warming

"Hajime Akimoto (Director of Atmospheric Composition Research Program), Masaaki Takahashi (Group Leader, joint appointment of professor at Center for Climate System Research, University of Tokyo), and Kengo Sudo (Research Fellow) at Frontier Research System for Global Change (FRSGC: joint project of JAMSTEC and JAXA), has found that ozone transport from the stratosphere (Note 1) to the troposphere will be enhanced by global warming as studied by chemical/climate model experiment (Figure 1 and 2). It is suggested that the enhanced intrusion of ozone to the troposphere will further accelerates global warming.

"This research outcome was published in Geophysical Research Letter (Vol. 30, No. 24), by American Geophysical Union, and distributed in Japan at the end of February."

http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2004/03/20040315_ozone_e.html

More information here:
http://space.jaxa.jp/srchcgi/sssrch.html?ENGMODE=1&SYNONYM2=PERFECT&STYLE2=0&TARGET2=CONTENTS&LIST2=20&DMODE=0&KEYWORD=global+warming

[Guaranteed]

95. Yes, but the climate changed before human beings were even around.

How do they know that humans are causing this?

The Earth's climate changes. It's dynamic. Things aren't supposed to be always staying the same.

Luckily, human beings are extremely adaptable, as is the Earth itself. Nature is beautiful, and strong. It's much more powerful than we are.

[Djinn]

97. Yes we adapt

but generall evolution does that kind of thing slowly - unless you plan on developing gills Bullgooseloony I'm looking forward to seing how you think you COULD adapt to massive flooding, planning on a making a change to your respiratory system too...sheesh

[Guaranteed]

98. Climate change is gradual too.

Climate change and evolution go hand in hand.

You think you're just going to wake up one day with two feet of saltwater in your house? It doesn't work like that.

[Tweek]

102. The overall global temp. has increased 2 degrees C...

in the past 30 years (according to my conservation biology text). This is due to the increase in automobiles found on the roads.

This is not a gradual process. This is very quick...and it's only gonna be getting worse.

[Guaranteed]

106. It's due to the increase of automobiles on the roads?

How do you know that? We're talking about the entire planet, here- there are a planet's worth of factors that could be the culprit for any temperature increase. Correlation doesn't equal causation.

And how do they know that the "overall temperature" of the Earth has increased by 2 degrees Celsius in 30 years? AND, if it IS true, why is that abnormal?

[Djinn]

112. it always WAS

gradual -climate change that is - but we're doing to it (and doing to it increasingly) isn't - that's why large parts of Bangladesh ALREADY DO wake up sometimes with two feet of salt water in their house.

That kind of being the whole point

[Art_from_Ark]

104. Climate change on a geological scale is very gradual

But climate change has been occurring at a dramatic pace over the last 100 years, coinciding nicely with the popularization of the automobile (and the rapid deforestation and paving of the land, I might add). Take a look at what Japan's premier scientists are saying about this, in the JAXA links that I provided in another post.

And here's a link to a global warming simulation prepared by the Japan Meteorological Agency:

http://www.mri-jma.go.jp/Dep/cl/cl4/GW/GW.html

[Guaranteed]

107. "But climate change has been occurring at a dramatic pace over the last...

100 years..."

We've only been keeping careful track of temperatures for the past 100 years or so. Again, how do we know that this is abnormal? If it IS abnormal, which would only be a guess since we don't have temperature records for the past 10,000 or 100,000 years, how do we know what to blame it on? Anything having to do with our civilization could be responsible for it- or not! It could have absolutely nothing to do with us. We can't tell, either way.

[Guaranteed]

109. You know, looking at those simulations

I'm seeing nodes. There are certain spots around the earth, like in the ocean between China and Korea, and in the Midwest of the US, where we see the most severe climate changes. Over the seventy years it's been very consistent, it seems to me.

Why is it these particular spots that are so prone to massive climate change? How does that fit into the theories of global warming?

[Art_from_Ark]

114. You may have noticed that the nodes are expanding

And the growth has been consistent with the growth of fossil fuel consumption.

I don't have time to investigate this at the present time (I do have to work once in a while), but you do make an interesting observation. Could it have something to do with the jet stream/prevailing winds?

On an anecdotal note, local people in this part of Japan (near Tokyo) have told me that 30-40 years ago, it was not unusual to see icicles in the dead of winter. In the decade and a half that I've been here, I have never seen an icicle anywhere around here. I've also noticed that the winters seem to be increasingly warmer.

[spanone]

80. Who cares?

[bobbyboucher]

82. Nice Dem suicide post.

Who really gives a fuck whether or not you consider these things important?

Not me.

[Paragon]

83. Good.

Thanks for posting about something you don't give a fuck about.

[napsi]

87. I agree with

1, 2 and 3. PETA is full of whack jobs but I love my dog and would save it before my mother in law. Global warming exists but I don't think we are capable of wiping out the planet. The planet will be here long after we exterminate ourselves.

I think the ELF (Earth Liberation Front) should be hunted down and jailed for domestic terrorism...or at least have their homes and businesses burned down. They seem to like fire.......

[meow mix]

88. #1 mentions water twice..

thats a good concern.
well as long as you have some (water) everything is fine =)

and yet.. you dont care about global warming!!!
how strange.
i liked this article in science forum today.

Water ebbs, worry flows
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~23447~2059903,00.html
"Time is running out," said Pat Mulroy, director of the Southern Nevada Water Authority. "The drought no one thought would even happen is here."

[Ksec]

91. IMO there are things we should highlight and things we

should put on the backburner. Once we win we could get these things reopened and then concentrate on them but First we have to win and to do that means a focusing attention on more broad appealing issues like jobs- economy- Iraq. There will be time to the others but not if we lose IMO.

[Rex]

101. Nice vanity post.

I don't care about blah blah, oh and blah.

Cya in the fall! :hi:

[theoceansnerves]

103. your lack of compassion for non humans is astounding

you claim you're expressing an "informed" opinion but both your #1 and #2 reek of rank speciesism. global warming will effect every living thing on earth, not just humans.

and if you aren't aware of how the meat culture, i.e. factory farms and slaughterhouses and the clearing of forests and farmlands relates to not only your #1, but also to poverty and hunger then you are woefully misinformed.

then again, you did say sorry twice, so i guess we (on the "far left") will accept your apology?

[Lorien]

118. My right wing fundie mom cares more than he/she does

about the first two issues that he/she calls "far left". :eyes:

[phrenzy]

124. speciesism?!?!

Did you say speciesism?! Holy shit. This a new one. Damn - those fucking 'Specists' not allowing dogs and cats into movies with people! We need to march on Washington!

[Kathleen04]

105. Not all of these issues are necessarily high on my priority list...

1. Global warming--On this issue, all I want exercised is common sense..

2. Ethical treatment for animals--there are alternatives to animal testing and simple measures that can be taken to avoid excessive cruelty. I say, if there are alternatives and a better way to do things that are simple..why not do them?

3. Conspiracy theories--I think it's important that people are hungry for the truth; I don't necessarily buy into these, nor do I discount them either...at the very least, I'm glad that people are investigating things.

[enki23]

108. so you have opinions.

1. this isn't a far left issue. this is an issue for every single thinking person on the planet, and it will *become* an issue for most of the rest, for better or worse. the science on this keeps coming back bigger and more certain every day. the earth doesn't give a fuck about you. *I* don't give a fuck about you. and you don't give a fuck about either of us, fair enough. but you'd give a fuck if it changed your life for the worse. your kids, maybe their kids, will curse you and everyone like you when it changes theirs. your opinion doesn't change the reality of our situation, no matter what that situation is. the workings of our world, and the science we use to discover them, aren't democratic.

2. everybody has a different idea of what "ethical" treatment for animals amounts to. i've done animal research, and i'm not opposed to necessary animal research. most of it is still necessary, and most will be necessary in the forseeable future, including the very distant forseeable future. science is empirical. we can't do human testing, so animal testing is the closest we can get, as unreliable as it can be. that said, your flippant attitude about it says something else entirely. not about it, about you. how we treat them, in spite of our needs for them, says a lot about us. inflicting unnecessary harm is beneath us, whether or not it's beneath you.

3. the american revolution started as a conspiracy. you can't write something off just by calling it a conspiracy. unless, that is, you're not really that bright. whether you happen to buy into any particular one is up to you. whether it's a legitimate concern or not is up to us, with the evidence available, to decide.

so... yay for you. you have opinions. some appear to be poorly formed and uncritically accepted. that's original.

[dawn]

113. So it's "far left" to care about the Earth and animals?

You may consider that far left, but others may not. I don't. I'm opposed to animal testing unless it's for things that can save human lives. I don't think we need to be testing shampoos and cosmetics on them.

Yeah, I eat meat, but I try my best to buy free range meat when I can. I don't like what I've read about factory farms.

I wish I could be vegetarian, but I always get sick when I try. :( I don't think my body can do it day in, day out.

As for #3, there are many on the very far right who are very into their conspiracy theories, and probably LIHOP and MIHOP as well. They of course hated Clinton more, but don't like any form of government. (I'm talking about near-militia types, not run-of-the-mill libertarians.)

[JVS]

122. Why not be ABB?

Then you don't have to worry about any issues

[Q]

129. On conspiracy theories...

- I'm not sure you understand what a 'conspiracy' is all about. A conspiracy is secretive by nature and usually involves ONLY the conspirators. That is...just those involved know what's going on.

- Others outside the loop may know certain aspects and wonder what's going on...but they don't have enough pieces to put the whole puzzle together. A couple good examples would be Clarke and the translator who was told to shut up about what she knew.

- Only a few people need to be involved when they're in high levels of government. The conspirators in this case just happen to be 'advisors' to the president* that can be protected by 'executive privilege'.

- I won't get into the finer details of 9-11...you should know them by now. But I can tell where you stand (in the middle of the road) when you use the term 'far left' to describe those you believe to be 'out of touch' with what you think is important. None of these are extremist views when you consider that many in the mainstream (like the families of the victims of 9-11) have adopted many of these same views.

[cryofan]

130. I agree. Also the left in general is too damn POLITICALLY CORRECT!

Political correctness is what has killed the Left in this country. They come across as looking out for a few minorities and the hell with everyone else, especially the white middle class. THat is why the Left should come out in favor of eliminating affirmative action based on race. Associating the Left and the welfare state with protected minority class was like a dream come true for the right and for CorpGOvMedia (the symbiotic organism comprised of the corporations, the wealthy, the investor class, and their elite cooporators in gov and the media).

The Left could make HUGE strides by calling for the end of race-based affirmative action. Kerry should call for the end of race-based affirmative action. But he won't....

[Bridget Burke]

135. If only we acted more like Republicans....

Then everything would be OK.

[cryofan]

136. Republicans STARTED race based affirmative action

get educated.

[gandalf]

133. I like your kind of humour. Most people here seem to take it serious.

Not me.

[ACK]

134. People are missing a great chance -- here is my list

The first two on my list is more of a suicide list of issues for candidates.

1. Gun control. Its a suicide issue. Easiest way to kill a candidate in many states is to paint him a wuss who wants to take away Grandpa's shotgun.

2. Death penalty. Its another suicide issue. The other easiest way to kill a candidate is to paint him as a puss who stands with murders and rapists over victims.

3. I echo #2. Listen, in a world where liberal politics in general were not on the edge of being crushed under the weight of the facists and their Orwellian media machine we could have a real debate and come to some reasonable progress in the ethical treatment of animals. That time is not now.

4. I also echo the conspiracy thing. I see grains of truth in a good bit of it and history might prove some of it out. However, the important thing is to get the Bush Co out of office and re-take the Congress.

5. Free Mumia. Ok, maybe he did not get a fair trail and maybe he needs a new trail all together. But just let him go? I don't buy it because if you take off the blinders and look at the evidence with a fair trail this guy should have still been sitting in jail. However, Leonard Peltier rots in jail with half the publicity and this guy with his radio and media ties from the day gets all the attention? Give me a break. Ugh. Pick the right case to make the cause.


I believe I understand what you are trying to say about Global Warming. However, I have to respectfully disagree.

The environment is connected and all the issues about clean air and clean water will end up connecting back to the issue of Global Warming. The frustration is the word itself and how other environmental issues end up getting droned out by people focusing on one part of a net of issues that are all connected.

_

[ElsewheresDaughter]

139. www.ishmael.org/welcome.cfm

http://www.ishmael.org/welcome.cfm

The current global human population is 6,360,092,962

As many as 80 species of plants and animals have been driven to extinction since midnight GMT.

Approximately 124,693 acres of rainforest have been destroyed since midnight GMT.

About 7,683,866 pounds of toxic chemicals have been released into the environment in the US since midnight GMT.

Data based on current time being: Tue Apr 6 14:01:23 2004 GMT


:(

[Bowser]

140. I don't know....

1.There's been many numerous studies about global warming and pollution in the environment done in the past 20 years. In the many studies I have seen, the average global temperature has increased by about 0.6 degrees C. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, this increase is the largest of any century in the past 1,000 years. With this increase in temperature, there has been a decrease in the amount of snow and ice on Earth--a 10% decrease since the late 1960s. There has also been a reduction in the annual duration of ice and snow in mid-high latitudes by about two weeks. There is much more evidence on this, and if you're interested in reading what the scientists have put together, then I recommend that you go to www.ipcc.ch .

2.I agree with you there...to an extent. I don't think animals should be used as test subjects for makeups, shampoos, or any other vanity/medicinal crap for us humans. I do, however, find no problems with animals being raised and slaughtered for our consumption. I like my meat. I'll never give that up.

3.I don't believe in conspiracies, so I can't really comment.

[gandalf]

141. Arguing with facts! Nice!

Welcome to DU, Bowser!

I like your point 1. Global warming is not an idea of leftists, and it does not concern the question if the Earth will survive, but rather which danger global warming poses for the human beings on this earth. It is really not an abstract question, it will become very real. And your point 1 mentions some important facts here.

3. It should not be a question of belief...

[Bread and Circus]

143. It's a big tent and we need to be open to discussion...thanks.

Everything should be on the table. Let's keep open
minds.

[spanone]

144. You should get more "informed" on global warming if nothing else.