Racism on this site...

[sleepystudent]

OK, I lurk a lot and barely post. I just read what people are saying and am very occassionally impressed. But some of the racist statements-specifically anti-black(I'm black, FWIW) are really troubling to me. Especially from people who seem to think that because they are self-proclaimed progressives, they are free of any prejudice and only have good intentions. It is all sort of subtle, but I see it and I know it is not in my head. There was a long discussion about sexist language on here-I don't know how that played itself out-but there seems to be a really insensitive streak on here that people dismiss by saying they are angry with what is going on in the country(well, duh) or saying talk is harsh, and you better be able to take it, or saying that people need to lighten up and get a sense of humor(which I have always seen as being white males saying regardless of political affiliation "We are going to say this and you can't do anything about it, so just deal.")

I don't really get the impression this is a very diverse site-I don't think there are a lot of blacks on here. But the term "Uncle Tom" has been thrown around in regards to Powell and Rice. And some criticism has suggested that their race implores them to act a certain way. And this is coming from whites, I'm pretty sure-which suggests that liberal plantation mentality that the blacks better act a certain way and not get too uppity. The same thing happened earlier in the year with Al Sharpton. When he was posing no threat to the favorites, people would praise him for being "articulate"(I don't think an inarticulate person could run for Pres-of course Bush is in office right now) But when he challenged Howard Dean, the claws came out for him especially from the white liberal side and his message was discarded. I think a lot of liberal whites still have this idea that blacks are to act a certain way. There was a "Brown Sugar" thread about Condi Rice on here making fun of her basically for her race-notwithstanding the fact that "Brown Sugar" is a song from the point of view of a slave master discussing his enjoyment of raping black slave women. There was also a thread about Condi being "white" as if black people act one way and whites another and they better not overlap.( I don't like what she has done and who she is affilated with, but I am honestly happy to see a black person make it-period)


The discussion of the Air America radio station taking over a historically black radio section: the complaints of blacks were completely dismissed with the attitude that "well, they shouldn't complain, we had the money, and anyway, we all have the same concerns, so they can just listen to us" Well, no, actually, the concerns are not the same.

There was a thread lamenting the fact that black people have not risen up to support the gay marriage struggle and black people were referred to as "them" as in "Well, they will never help us" -again, this dismissive, essentialist, reductive thinking. And when blacks point out nuances in the conflation of gay rights and the black civil rights movement, they seem to be angrily dismissed on here.(Im gay, too FWIW, and I have conflicted feelings on this whole thing myself)

The dismissal of the South on this site. The South has the largest black population in the country and it is growing as blacks tire of the racism in the Northeast and the West and return home. The most segregated communities in America are almost all in the Northeast and Rust Belt. So if you angrily write off the South, you are writing off the black population as well.

I could go and on, but this is already too long and incoherent and I can just come back and add more later. Just to say that I think people on here need to check themselves more and not think that they are liberal, left, progressive, whatever and that absolves them of all prejudice. I read it every day on here and having "good intentions and a good heart" is starting to just not cut it with me.

I'll be back with more later hopefully.

[THUNDER HANDS]

1. DU could use more racial diversity

You are certainly welcome here and your thoughts are appreciated.

:hi:

[outinforce]

3. "DU could use more racial diversity"??

I'm just curious about something.]

I do not recall, when I registered at DU, being asked anything about my racial background.

Perhaps DU now asks such a question before granting postinjg rights, but it did not when I signed up.

That being the case, how do you (or anyone else) know what the racial diversity within DU currently is? How can you say that DU needs more?

Have I mis-understood you?

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. i don't think the U.S. Census has found us yet...but...

From most unscientific polls done in the lounge about race, that I can recall, an overwhelming majority of people here are white.

And I say that it could use more because having a more diverse community here would no doubt be a good thing.

I'd certainly prefer to have more minorities posting here than less.

[OldEurope]

156. I have a problem with this expression:

maybe it´s because I´m German, and my English is not so good, not to mention that I cannot really understand all details of racial concerns in your country.
But for me there is no "racial diversity" amongst human beeings. Anyone who thinks that persons with a different appearance have "another race", is either a Nazi or a dreamer who believes that brother sqirrel is as human as we are. The terms of racial classification came from breeders, the words were used for cattle and dogs, and to use them on human beeings is offensive in my opinion.
Edited to remove some things you already knew

[sleepystudent]

210. Fine...

Whatever. There is cultural difference though and that's legit in my opinion and it's easy for people just to throw out that whole "well there's no race biologically speaking" and think that will solve everything instantly. Tell that to some lady who's denied an apartment or a job because of her skin color or "black-sounding" name. The frequent use of the biology model seems to go back to the "well, you're crazy, it's all in your head" argument

[OldEurope]

270. Sorry, all I wanted to express was:

I don´t like that expression "racial diversity". Not at all would I deny that there are lots of prejudices (and really more terrible things!!!), nor did I want to suggest that denying these daily affronts could solve any problems.
Sorry, once more, I´m just a stranger here.

[SemperEadem]

278. perhaps when your American English is better

and you've taken the time to do some study and research, and have taken the time to talk with people who have been directly affected, instead of acting like "It's not my reality, so therefore it's not a reality", then you will be able to approach some kind of understanding about a society about which you admit "I cannot really understand all details of racial concerns in your country. " That is because you haven't attempted to do any research.

You see, when blacks first came to this country, they were treated like cattle--they were property to be haggled over, bought, sold, abused or killed if their owner so felt. They had no rights, it was illegal to teach them to read, their children could be snatched from their arms and sold to someone hundreds of miles away, never to be seen again. Laws were enacted to keep them enslaved. Sounds a bit like your Nazis, doesn't it? Yeah, it is offensive, but that didn't stop whites from doing it because they felt they had Jesus on their side in this.

It's nice that for you, where blacks are not a large segment of your population, there is no 'racial diversity'. However, there was 'racial diversity' when the Germans decided to blame Jews for their problems after WWI, so for you to come on here and make that statement that it doesn't apply to you is a lie, unless you've been living under a rock for the past 65+ years.

[OldEurope]

290. Once more:

I´m sorry if my post could be understood as if I would like to deny anything. I just stumbled across that expression "racial diversity" in magicrats post. It seemed strange to me, that whithin DU someone would request more racial diversity. As my knowledge of your language is not so good: maybe this was just another phrase for " there should be more threads like this on DU ", and that´s perfectly OK, and I just didn´t understand.
Surely I did not want to offend anyone; I understood that I better stop answering on threads about these things. It seems that my opinions come out of a too naive view.

[Karenina]

324. Schöne Gruße, OldEurope!

:hi: Es tut mir SEHR LEID alles zu lesen. Die Amis kann Dich und Deine Kontext gar nicht verstehen. Aber, bitte... Leg nicht auf!!! ;-)
Wir mussen unsere Gasse finden.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[el_gato]

2. It was Harry Belafonte who first called Powell an "Uncle Tom"

take it up with him if you wish

I have not seen this "racism" you allege.

on Edit: If you're gonna make allegations at least
provide some links of actual transgressions. Otherwise
I see nothing but hot air.

[mojo2004]

19. Read any of the current Condi posts...

bitch is commonly used to describe her.

[Raster]

26. that's not a racial slur

If anything it's a slur on female dogs. I use the same word to describe Babs Bush, Dr. Laura, Phyllis Schlaffley, Pickles, etc. Bitch has no race.

[slinkerwink]

97. but bitch has GENDER....and it's a

sexist slur.

[drfemoe]

188. And NOW

Brought to you by the website formerly known as ***************.*** it's

BITCH*O*MANIA

small print:
Refer to Liebermania play book for rules of engagement.

[slinkerwink]

196. what a bunch of silly hyperbole

:eyes:

[drfemoe]

211. exactly . EOM

[JohnLocke]

326. Thread hijacking has begun. Gender, race, what's the difference?

:eyes:

[CatWoman]

30. Yeah I called her a bitch

she's a lying ass enabling bitch.

[enki23]

192. sexist, racist!

do you, catwoman, have a problem with this african american woman, condoleeza rice?

;-)

[slinkerwink]

198. I have no problems with calling Condi an asshole or just plain

incompetent, but I do have a problem with sexist slurs.

[enki23]

237. hey, i think she's a bitch too.

she's also a 'cheap whore'and an all-around very bad person.

i also happen to think president bush is a 'prick' and a 'dick.' i will also call him a 'fuck' and a 'retarded cocksucker' when i'm in the mood. a 'blue blooded new england inbred masquerading as a prototypically-texan, collosal asshole.' he's a 'lying fuck' even, or perhaps a 'lying prick' or a 'cocksucking shiteater who *really* needs to be thrown in a federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for the rest of his relatively long and very, very unhappy fucking life.'

cheney is a 'fucking cock' as well. reagan was an 'addled twat.' now he's just a 'fucking vegetable.' while tom delay, for example, is a 'god damned brat' who i'd love to see 'beaten like a redheaded stepchild.'

then there's trent lott. he's a 'fucking prick' and a 'god damned redneck piece of shit.' he's a 'southern good-ol'-boy pigfucker' too.

[CatWoman]

217. DAMN STRAIGHT

:D

:hi: Enk!!!!

:loveya:

[wysimdnwyg]

40. Calling Rice, or anyone else, a bitch is not racism

It just means she's a bitch. My ex-girlfriend - my WHITE ex-girfriend - is a bitch too. That has nothing to do with race.

[slinkerwink]

88. but it has to do with GENDER

and that's a sexist slur...

[CatWoman]

103. i call men bitches, too

:shrug:

[slinkerwink]

111. it still refers to them as women or insinuating that they're like women

which still makes it a sexist slur.

[redqueen]

135. Right on, slinkerwink!

Insults such as: pantywaist, girlie-man, bitch, cunt, pussy, etc. all convey the unspoken *rule* that men are *de-facto* better than women. That it's *bad* to posess feminine qualities.

Hell, we do it to our kids! One thing I love doing, is when some parent tells me about how they let their daughter do tomboy things, or do things that forty years ago were considered 'boy' things (science, sports, etc.), I always ask if they would let their son wear pink shoes.

Bet you can guess the answer!

Unspoken rule: it's okay for girls to do boy things, because boy things are good. It's NOT good for boys to do girl things, because girl things are bad.

:grr:

[slinkerwink]

140. and that's what gets me, is that little boys are given the message

that they shouldn't be like girls---who needs sensitivity or the ability to empathize anyway? :eyes:

[redqueen]

145. And it's crippling our evolution!

How fair is it to give boys the message that they can't cry?! How much does that hurt them down the line? There was a book that came out about this... wish I could remember the title right now.

:yourock:

[slinkerwink]

154. was it the book called "The Weaker Sex?"

[redqueen]

162. No it had boys in the title

It was mainly about how boys are not consoled as much by their mothers after a certain age and stuff like that... more examples of how they're conditioned young. Sad stuff.

[slinkerwink]

165. I also think that definitions of masculinity have done a lot

in harming the ability of men to empathize with women.

[pnb]

263. Hmm...

...some might say it is sexist to say that sensitivity and the ability to empathize is "being like girls."

[CatWoman]

137. i don't look at it that way

tho a bitch is a female dog, I use to to refer to a dog, period.

[slinkerwink]

142. yes, but it still refers to the female gender

and here are the definitions for it:

Main Entry: 1bitch
Pronunciation: 'bich
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bicche, from Old English bicce
1 : the female of the dog or some other carnivorous mammals
2 a : a lewd or immoral woman b : a malicious, spiteful, or domineering woman -- sometimes used as a generalized term of abuse

It's still directed at her gender, which makes it a sexist slur.

[CatWoman]

147. cocksucker can apply to both sexes as well

in my world.

[slinkerwink]

157. yes, but how often do you hear a woman being called a cocksucker

in ratio to that of men being called one? I'll bet that it's a greater ratio than it is for men.

[shanti]

63. and???

it's also used to describe ann coulter!

[CatWoman]

66. good point, Seek

[sangh0]

94. One problem with that

The original post didn't complain about calling Condi a bitch. You're defending yourself/others against a charge that hasn't been made.

[Carolina]

160. it's an insult to female dogs

to compare Condi to them, but as a Black woman, I find myself screaming 'bitch' at her image on TV. It's almost reflexive; so the use here on DU doesn't disturb me.

Let's face it, bitch is derisive and overly used but I'm more offended by it's overusage in Black rap, hip/hop music as a generic term for women, particularly Black women.

[flaminlib]

44. Im not so sure you understand what he/she was trying to say

I dont think you can "blame" Belafonte or Powell for what is repeated here. I dont think that just because you havent seen the racism, it doesnt exist. Burying your head in the sand, so to speak, doesnt help. I agree a few links would be educational but I think we could agree that some degree of racism exists everywhere, and DU is not immune to that. As for your last statement regarding hot air, that is just not right. If thats all you see, maybe you should ask yourself why.

I think racism exists on a continuum. Very few, if any of us are at either end of the spectrum, completely racist or completely not racist. We all have a little in us and its best not to ignore or deny it for lack of "proof" or some other reason. Its better to consider it seriously and "progress" beyond what we are today. IMO

DU is certainly more progressive in its membership than the general public but I think a reminder now and then is a good thing.

When was the last time you heard a Native American issue addressed here? 70% unemployment in Pine Ridge, suicide rates 4 times that of the nation average, alcoholism, education... I could go on but I think Ive made the point. Living in a white world is not always as inclusive as some would pretend it to be. And not everyone SEE's that!

[el_gato]

61. making general allegations without one single example

and then you want me to accept the basic premise

that it rich!

I'm not saying latent racism does not exist but
I am saying I don't agree with the original post.

[flaminlib]

75. Do you need examples? Really?

I dont think you do. The reason is, you kind of contradicted yourself. You agree "latent" racism exists here but you deny his basic premise (racism does exist here) for lack of examples.

Again, i dont think examples are needed. I think its evident that some degree of racism or racial insensitivity exists here, and in everyone, like anywhere else. More importantly, and more educational, are the repsonses to this thread. Deny, defame, disavow!

Rather than accept that EVERYONE has some work to do on the racism scale, everyone seems to want to deny that THEY could be part of the "latent" racism problem.

[el_gato]

87. so now you are trying to put words in my mouth, very dishonest

I didn't say "here" now did I?

I see this thread as nothing but flamebait at this point
and I am done talking to you and the original poster with
all of these vague broad brush statements.

BUh-bye

[sangh0]

98. You post wasn't referring to "here" on DU?

Then are you saying there is absolutely NO latent racism here on DU?

Either you're saying that there is NO latent racism (which is just ridiculous) or you are saying there is some latent racism on DU (in which case, you are agreeing with the main point of the OP)

[el_gato]

181. I'm saying latent racism exists in our society

and to try to come here and start throwing it around as if
somehow people on DU are racist is just a bunch of crap.

Maybe it's a little too complex for you sangh0.

[sangh0]

272. "as if somehow people on DU are racist"

So you don't think there's any racism on DU?

Maybe it's a little too complex for you sangh0.

Not too complex. It's just that you are not being very clear. One moment, you imply that there is racism on DU, and then the next, you imply that there isn't.

Take my very simple question to you - "Do you think there is racism on DU?" You didn't answer that very simple yes or no question. Instead, you tell me that there's racism in our society (I didn't ask about racism in society). You then go on to imply that there is no racism on DU, but without explitely saying so. So I'll try again, and hope you are capable of giving a straightforward answer to this simple yes or no question

Do you think there is racism on DU?

[Kanary]

138. Oh yes, the "examples"

Serve well to dismiss and point back to the poster.

"Deny, defame, disavow! "

You're so right. So much for rational discussion. We *might* actually have something to learn from each other, ifwe could step back from accusations and attacks for a bit.

I appreciate your words.

Kanary

[arcane1]

79. yeah, that never happens!

not! :silly:


address it in the post you find it in, that's my motto... anyone can type up a rant w/no examples, and use it to complain about "this site"

[sangh0]

275. Repukes also deny that racism is systemic

They say that discrimination should be handled on an individual basis whenever an individual can prove (in a court of law) that they have been racially discriminated against. In making this argument, they seek to deny minorities the ability to address systemic discrimination with programs like AA.

[Chovexani]

105. Oh for fuck's sake

You're here, it's your board too. Don't sit back and whine, do something about it. If you think Native American issues aren't posted on enough, why don't you post some goddamn articles about it instead of simply complaining about it.

And really let's not go there, because Roma issues are NEVER addressed on this board. Ever. I don't bitch about it, I don't accuse people of not caring about the Roma peoples, I post articles when I can find them because it's important to me. This board is a community, it's a diverse community with people from many walks of life and different perspectives. Stop bitching and do something about it.

I for one am sick and fucking tired of people with 2 and 3 posts coming on here lobbing flamebait posts indicting the entire DU. If you don't like the way things are, here's a clue why don't you post more and add your perspective and ENGAGE people instead of sitting back complaining about how no one listens to you. I'm a threadkiller to the extreme and most of the posts I make drop like rocks but I at least attempt to get my voice heard on issues I care about.

Bottom line: if you want the consciousness raised then dammit step up to the plate. Our DU women are incredible examples of this.

--C (a queer black woman, if it really matters to you)

[redqueen]

141. Well said

I wanted to say something about this, thanks for doing it so well!

If you are being wronged or feel something isn't being done right, make some noise! :)

[flaminlib]

170. I think you confused whining with doing something

Im trying to do something but Im surprised at the indignation and attacks. In fact, can I say ANYTHING about it without being accused of whining? How am I supposed to raise consciousness if Im not allowed to comment on this topic without being labled a whiner?

I am new to posting here, and still getting my feet wet. Ive lurked for a while but never posted for various reasons. To be sure, I will bring up issues that are important to me but, can we agree that I should be able to comment as a newbie without being labled a whiner or complainer, or my positions disqualified because Im not a veteran poster?

[kitkatrose]

214. I think some people (and I'm not claiming to know anything)

feel that low count posters who come in and make a broad generalization about a certain behavior without providing clear examples of it. A lot of trolls use that technique, so people are a bit on guard against it.

Im trying to do something but Im surprised at the indignation and attacks. In fact, can I say ANYTHING about it without being accused of whining? How am I supposed to raise consciousness if Im not allowed to comment on this topic without being labled a whiner?

I think some of that is redux from the sexism discussions that happened for the past two days. At this time, it's probably not personal, but I can't speak for everybody.

I think people feel that your cause would be better served if you pointed it out when you found it and made your case there, instead of making a generalization of the board w/o being specific.

So anyway, welcome to the board, have a good time posting. :hi:

[rppper]

206. you said "b@tch" in your post...look out....

:grouphug:

[slinkerwink]

225. it's okay for her to use the word "bitch" as a verb or adjective

but NOT as a sexist slur against a woman.

[mzmolly]

320. *Here here!*

"This board is a community, it's a diverse community with people from many walks of life and different perspectives...

I for one am sick and fucking tired of people with 2 and 3 posts coming on here lobbing flamebait posts indicting the entire DU."

:yourock:

[Isome]

199. P-shaw!

You must not have been looking. I've seen my share.

It's a fact of life that Black people (and non-whites) deal with daily. Normally, there are folks just like you who don't believe they've ever seen any...

[RichV]

4. "Brown Sugar" reference to Doonesbury cartoon a couple days ago

It was ridiculing Bush for nicknaming everything, and suggested he called Condi that. It was a slam on Bush.

[slinkerwink]

8. DU has different standards and higher ideals than Doonesbury

Just because Doonesbury uses that racist term, doesn't mean we should use it here.

[rumguy]

37. sanitization

is...not....the....answer

there's a reason those ivory towers have cold, lifeless winds blowing through them

[slinkerwink]

89. a mod locked a thread in the Lounge over the use of "brown sugar"

so I'd say that's a racist thing to say.

[rumguy]

100. didn't see thread

read Doonsebury and didn't find it racist at all

[LeftCoast]

149. Please do not read motives into moderator actions

Moderators do not support one DUer over another. We enforce the rules.

[Kanary]

166. How can we help but guess and "read motives"

When nothing is said?

I realize that you *try* to be objective, but..... just as there is racism and sexism here, there are lapses in objectivity, also.

While I believe that *most* mods do their best *most* of the time, the same can be said for many of us posters who are really tired of being crapped on here.

Kanary

[bigbillhaywood]

182. The South

I slam the South because I lived there for many years and saw the bigotry, ignorance and right-wing religious bullshit first hand. And believe it or ot, many blacks down South are also guilty of right-wing religious bullshit. Your point about the South having a large black population is well taken, however, blacks are still a minority down there, and due to our anti-democratic Electoral College system, if you win the white vote, you win the state. That is why it's so easy for many people to write-off the South.

Eliminating racism will require large structural changes to both our political and economic system (eliminating the Electoral College would be a good start)-- changes that I doubt the vast majority of Democratic politicians would be willing to make. It's up to rank-and-file progressives to organize economically, socially and politically to force the change.

MLK didn't wait on Jack Kennedy to pass the Civil RIghts Act, he (and many other lesser-known people) built a movement which forced the powers-that-be to respond. The unions didn't wait on FDR to pass New Deal legislation, they forced it through bloody strikes. Had they not, we wouln't have min wage, overtime, social security or labor law today.

Voting Democrat may be necessary to stop the Republican onslaught, but it is purely defensive. It will not move us forward, only keep us from sliding backward too far. If we want to move forward on any issue (including racism), we must look past the polls and take action.

[redqueen]

193. best post on the thread

:yourock:

[rumguy]

201. "sleepystudent" tries to play it off like things are better in the South

now I've officailly seen it all

[pnb]

266. You doubt it completely?

As someone who has lived in the north and the south I can say things are NO better up north.

[rumguy]

281. well racism is not better in the south

can we agree on that at least

[sangh0]

285. bigbillhaywood's description of Southern elections is ridiculous

He claims that blacks have little or no political power in Southern states because of the ELectoral College. RIDICULOUS

The Southern States don't HAVE an Electoral College. The Electoral College is only a factor in Presidential elections.

[pnb]

311. Its kind of hard to say actually

I actually saw much more racist behavior when I was living up north but to be fair, I've been married to a black woman my entire time in the south so people may just be more careful what they say around me.

As far as more institutionalized types of racism, I actually think the north is worse regarding things like segregated neighborhoods. I actually found it amazing when I first moved here how many mixed neighborhoods there were because it was not something I was at all used to being from Long Island.

I've heard about more racially motivated crimes in recent years occuring up north than down south as well.

I can definitely say that I know that there are assholes everywhere as well as many good people everywhere and that I am not trying to turn this into north versus south but basically to say that it is wholly incorrect for people to get high and mighty attitudes about being from the north and how enlightened their areas are. Connecticut liberals may talk the talk but many of them will immediately call 911 when they see a young black male walking down THEIR street.

[sangh0]

321. NYS state has a higher level of hate crimes than any Southern state

according to the Southern Law Poverty Center, where they keep track of such things.

[kitkatrose]

216. Good post!

Welcome to DU. :hi: I hope you'll continue posting like this, we need you.

[ikojo]

341. DIRECT ACTION GETS THE GOODS

The suits in the suites wont listen if
the people are not in the streets!

We need to take it to the streets and protest. I don't care whether the pres has a D or an R after his name. They both serve the same masters---the corporations.

[LagaLover]

5. Well said

Most people miss the inherent racism in the belief that "all Blacks had better think and vote the same way; if they don't they don't speak for REAL Blacks."

Condi Rice is just as Black as Al Sharpton. I don't agree with her politics, but I admire her achievements.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

6. If you want to fight the racism you see here.

Post more. Challenge what you see as racism.
But be careful about trarring us all with the same brush with your criticisms.

[rumguy]

7. You want racism?

Go to freerepublic!

[slinkerwink]

12. dude---the poster just said he doesn't want to see racism in here

:eyes:

[rumguy]

15. dudette

look at his assertions

they don't stand

it's an attempt to smear this entire board with untruths

[G_j]

264. I don't see it as a smear at all

they tried to articulate their preceptions. Other perceptions may be different. I think it's a topic worth discussing. I respect the poster for trying to communicate and engage people in a discussion.

[Neecy]

9. thank you

...and I hope that the concerns you've listed aren't dismissed or attacked. This is a discussion that perhaps we should have.

The dismissal of the South on this site. The South has the largest black population in the country and it is growing as blacks tire of the racism in the Northeast and the West and return home.

Because of my job, I've lived in many different regions and you're completely right on this issue. I lived in Chicago for a year and found the racial animosity to be far worse than any I had heard in the south. The South Side of Chicago is also racially and ethnically more segregated than anything I'd experienced before either.

[outinforce]

20. Have You Ever Been To.......?

"The South Side of Chicago is also racially and ethnically more segregated than anything I'd experienced before either."

Have you ever been to your nation's capital, Washington, DC?

Washington, DC is perhaps the most segregated place I've ever known.

The races of people on the various subway lines at rush hour in DC always amaze me.

[LagaLover]

41. Good observation about the metro lines

I metro in from PG County...Lots of Whites board at New Carrollton, but after that, everyone else is Black. I was surprised at that at first, used to it now. To be honest, I don't think a lot of people in the DC suburbs really notice that, anymore. We just get on the train and go to work; everyone trying to make a living.

[outinforce]

51. From Metro Center

During the evening rush hour, look at the almost exclusively white riders on the red line going towards Shady Grove.

Or go to L'Enfant Plaza during the evening rush hour, and notice how the Green Line trains -- especially the ones going towards Branch Avenue -- contain folks who are mostly dark-complected, while the yellos line trains going towards Huntington contain, for the most part, fair-complected passengers.

These are people going to where they live.

[sangh0]

106. Urban and suburban areas are more segregated

and urban areas in particular tend to cluster in the North and the two coasts, not the South.

Also, SLPC does studies on the frequency and location of hate crimes. The Northeast has some of the highest scoring states.

[Neecy]

43. sure

I've been to DC, but I didn't live there. You may well be right, but I can only comment on what I've experienced.

[apnu]

83. Chicago history is interesting....

edited for a more clear subject.

I live in Chicago now, and I study the city's history. Chicago today is still the most racially segregated city in the country. The south side's segregation is a remnant of the old Bronzeville neighborhood which grew out of the first exodus to Chicago during WW I, and it lead to the really nasty 1919 race riots as black WWI veterans returned home from the war armed with their military rifles.

Also don't forget that the only time MLK was assaulted was in Chicago.

However, Chicago also segregates whites from whites and Hispanics from Hispanics as well. There are Polish neighborhoods, Italian, Irish,
Greek and Russian/Ukrainian. There are several Puerto Rican neighborhoods, Mexican... There are, I think, at least 4 Asian neighborhoods, a "china town" and two "Korean towns" and another kinda mixed one.

It gets worse when you go out into the 'burbs around Chicago.

Chicago is self-segregated by design, a design that just kinda happened. It's a boom town, and when the immigrants arrived in the city they collected together in small towns outside of the city by their nationality. As Chicago grew, it swallowed up those towns and the people living there didn't want to give up their identity as a village and they became a neighborhood. Chicago's boarders today are very similar to what they were in 1900. Then the first wave of Southern Africans hit the city because the Chicago Defender was advertising good jobs in Chicago for Africans in the south. The city, mostly white, didn't know what to do with all these new people and they shoved them into a narrow strip on the south side, eventually called Bronzeville. Which grew over time to its own city within the city and they even elected their own mayor and had a completely independent economy that was outside the realm of Chicago.

I'm not making a statement for or against segregated Chicago, I'm just trying to provide some often overlooked history about the city for everybody's benefit.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. Sounds conspicuously like...

the republicans who say we hate Condi Rice because she is a black woman or that we hated Estrada because he was latino... especially with absolutely no evidence to support himself...

[slinkerwink]

14. the poster doesn't like condileeza rice, but to be honest

some have made comments about her that could be deemed racist like trumad's calling condi rice "brown sugar."

[rumguy]

11. Hot air

and I think it was pretty lame that my post was deleted...I made no personal attack

this post barely makes sense - and it does ramble

go ahead delete me...

[JimT]

13. wait a minute

So you are basing your accusations of this site's members non-diversity on the content of their posts? Isn't that stereotyping? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that seems hypocritical.

[imax2268]

33. I don't see

any outright racism on this site...but if some users use racist terms..don't deem the entire DU as racist...

If you have problems with what certain people say...then alert the mods...don't label the whole boards as being racist...

[sangh0]

113. sleepystudent didn't lable the entire board

s/he just pointed out that there was more racism than s/he would like to see on a progressive board.

[CatWoman]

16. Well, from this black woman

Condi Rice is a fucking disgrace and a lying bitch -- her blackness makes it more so.

Same as Colin Powell.

And ANY Black that caters to this murdering, racist administration.

Just my two cents.

[rumguy]

22. hear hear

ignore the nonsense

[CatWoman]

27. gimme some of that rum!!!

:hi:

[Chovexani]

24. You're my DU hero CW

Always hitting the nail on the head. :hi:

[Raster]

29. Right On!!!

[cmf]

46. This black woman agrees. n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. Why does her blackness make it more so

I prefer to be treated equally.

[CatWoman]

64. Her blackness makes it more so

because this administration STOLE the presidency by overwhelmingly disenfranchasing blacks.

How can any black support them in this light??

Bush admin policies are overwhelmingly anti-black/minority.

In this light, how can any black/minority support them???

[pnb]

71. Why should that blackness be her end-all be-all issue

If whites, or anyone else for that matter, don't have have their race be the only thing that matters, why should blacks be any different? It is wrong to assume it should be that way.

Why can't blacks concern themselves with the same issues as other races and for the same reasons?

[CatWoman]

82. I'm not saying they can't

and I'm not saying that that blacks can't concern themselves with the same issues as other races.

what I AM saying is why cheerlead for an administration that is so devastatingly indifferent to YOUR race?

it's only a matter of time before you appear in their bullseye.

[sangh0]

117. If you feel that Condi supports policies that are bad for black people

then how does using racially loaded names like "Brown Sugar" help make that point?

sleepystudent is not complaining about people who don't like COndi and are vocal about it. s/he is complaining about HOW she is described. Also, ss is not complaining about the term "bitch"

[CatWoman]

143. the only thing I know about "brown sugar"

was the Doonesbury cartoon.

Other than that, I don't know what you're talking about.

[redqueen]

148. I didn't know either

Gold Coast slaveship bound for cotton fields
Sold in a market down in New Orleans
Scarred old slaver know he's doin' alright
Hear him whip the women just around midnight

Brown sugar, how come you taste so good
Brown sugar, just like a young girl should

Drums beating, cold English blood runs hot
Lady of the house wond'rin where it's gonna stop
House boy knows that he's doin' alright
You should a heard him just around midnight

[sangh0]

283. CatWoman, I was not accusing you of anything

I have no idea about how much you know about the "Brown Sugar" remarks. My point was not that you have done anything wrong or that you were using that term. My point is that the term serves little purpose, and the little purpose it does serve could be served better with less racially-loaded language. In addition, calling Condi "Brown Sugar" does nothing to communicate the idea that she is incompetent, corrupt, stupid, evil, etc. All it communicates is that we don't like her. We could do a better job of communicating by using other terms like incompetent, corrupt, stupid, evil, etc. Brown Sugar just opens us to being called racist, which is just a distraction from the issue.

Often, HOW you make your point is as important as WHAT your point is. The whole debate over what "tone" Condi should adopt for her testimony is, IMO, a reflection of that fact. Instead of worrying about WHAT she is going to say (for example "the truth") it seems like most of the talk is about the "tone" and whether or not she will apologize.

[CatWoman]

297. what was that Gilda Radner character on SNL?

"nevermind"

:D

[sangh0]

308. LOL!

"What's all the fuss about the violins on TV? I love the sound of violins!!"

[Muddleoftheroad]

120. It's obvious they disagree

Though I think they are wrong, they have a right to think that and shouldn't be considered race traitors for doing so.

Frankly, the Democratic Party isn't perfect with race either. And we had to get Republicans to appoint blacks to such high positions.

[redqueen]

72. Self-interest vs. Community-interest

It's probably more personally enriching for them to support bushistas. Money money money money. Money!

[mzmolly]

73. I agree. This sounds like flame bait to me?

:shrug:

The ol' "liberals are hypocrites" meme ? :hi:

[sleepystudent]

81. Well, sort of...

I don't understand that. I think everyone, regardless of political affiliation, is a hypocrite in one way or another to some extent. So yeah, liberals are hypocrites. So are conservatives. It's a meme that applies to humanity because there are no absolutes to human behavior and to politics and people shouldn't assume that talking the talk means walking the walk. It never does. So calling someone a hypocrite isn't much of an accusation to me.

I have the right to admit that it bothers me though. Especially when it comes to race.

[mzmolly]

107. I agree with you..

And we have a right to doubt your motives untill we get to know you better. ;)

I hope you'll stick around, and be an agent for change here if the change you desire is needed.

[Isome]

224. Hmmm...

This is definitely not bait, though it is being flamed.

There have been plenty of times when DUers latent racsim has come out in full force. Any discussions about race (like this one) will bring out apologists, 'deniers', and the UNrighteously indignant.

[malatesta1137]

17. Uncle Tom is not a racist term.

It's race-related but not racist. Much to the contrary, it refers to blacks who insist on supporting whites who consistently belittle them.

As for blacks not supporting gays, it's true. Most blacks don't want their civil rights struggles to be associated with gay's, which is very unfortunate. And sometimes hypocritical, especially since black 'straight' married men are largely responsible for spreading AIDS, by having promiscuous extramarital affairs with gay men.

[Neecy]

36. questionable

I think the data indicates that IV drug use is much more a causation for the spread of AIDS in the African-American community than 'affairs' with gay men.

Part of the conflict is that early in the crisis, gay men organized politically and in many ways set up their own health/support network through their own fundraising and efforts. When federal money began coming into the system, the crisis was beginning to peak in the African-American community, yet the resources went primarily to gay health networks. This caused quite a bit of friction, as the services and clinics were almost always located in affluent neighborhoods and not where the (new) majority cases were located.

A good resource for information on this is the book The Gravest Show on Earth. I think it's still available on Amazon.com.

[redqueen]

49. The latest studies are probably better

They reflect the recent spike in AIDS cases. The data show that the leading cause of infection for both white and black males is homosexual activity.

I remembered this coming out in the news recently - but this was the only link I could find quickly.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/03/24/hiv.colleges.ap/index.html

[sangh0]

122. There was an article about this in the NY Times

just a couple of days ago.

[redqueen]

155. Thanks

I'll look for that. :(

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Yes it is

It assumes all blacks must think a certain way to be really be black.

That's horsecrap.

[redqueen]

67. Really?

It seems to me it assumes that all HUMANS should act in the interest of their community as opposed to their personal self-interest. It just so happens that this example of such behavior was used in a novel wherein the conflict was one of race.

Is "Benedict Arnold" a racist term against whites?

Honestly.

[Muddleoftheroad]

123. How to best serve your community varies with opinions

Like him or not, Colin Powell has indeed served his nation for his entire adult life.

To throw a racist term at him simply because many expect all blacks to back the same agenda is ridiculous and biased.

[redqueen]

169. I know he has

Do you think his supporting this lying administration is defensible? Do you think even he himself can rationalize it? I don't. I think he's been the shining example of the closest this administration comes to a person of conscience. His decision not to serve again in bush's maladministration should he steal it again is telling.

You again assert that "Uncle Tom" is racist - was it racist for Belafonte to say it about him? Was there a hue and cry about it here afterwards? I don't remember one, but I wasn't on GD much at the time.

[Muddleoftheroad]

171. HE thinks so

And that is enough for him. He doesn't have to justify his racial attitude to me.

Actually, yes, it was racist for Belafonte to say it about him. We are among the worst offenders expecting all blacks to toe the same line. It doesn't work that way. And it is racist to establish a litmus test for someone to be "really" black.

[redqueen]

177. I'm beginning to see your point

Thanks for taking the time to spell it out for me. I must admit there are still some holes, but I'm starting to understand where you're coming from, so thanks. :)

[Muddleoftheroad]

233. Thanks for making me feel it is worthwhile

Have a great day.

[redqueen]

243. You too

and a great weekend, too! Tomorrow is a holiday here and don't have internet at home so today is my last chance to tell ya' that. :) Hope it's a long one for you as well.

Peace,
RQ

[slinkerwink]

101. "Uncle Tom" is indeed a racist slur

I honestly don't know why anyone refuses to see this like they refuse to see the blatant sexism in the sexist slur "bitch."

[ProfessorGAC]

153. Just A Question

At least 3 black DU'ers on this very thread have said that they do not consider Uncle Tom to be a racist slur.

Yet, you insist it is. Are you black? If not, one would think it would be wise to take one's cue from those most likely to be offended.

Just a thought.
The Professor

[Muddleoftheroad]

173. I am. It is.

It is part and parcel to the claim that all blacks have to think alike. Or to be "truly" black, you have to do this or do that. To be truly black is to think for yourself. Just as it is to be truly any race.

[pezcore64]

309. hah

well i just long for the day when thinking for yourself is 'truely human' and not truely a colour.

until we get passed the fact we are different races and see we are all human beings, there will always be a racist and there will always be people offended by some language.

i was taught by a very very wise teacher one time who told me 'as long as we call ourselves N***** , i dont see how we can expect other people to respect us and not do the same'

he was the best teacher i ever had in my entire public school career and a product of the civil rights movement of the 60s. he was also african american.

[redqueen]

172. Not a refusal to see

Please don't make the mistake of reading malicious intent into people's actions. This media is well-known for not being as effective as others for communication.

I can understand how someone might not realize how terms like 'bitch' and 'pantywaist' are really anti-woman. It's cultural. You grow up hearing it and really don't think deeply about the underlying meaning being conveyed.

So it's not that I'm 'refusing' to see that 'Uncle Tom' is a racist slur, it's that I genuinely don't get how it is.

[Terran]

194. Excuse me, but "Uncle Tom" is NOT racist

You don't know what you're talking about. Have you ever heard a racist call a Black person an "Uncle Tom"? No, of course not, because it doesn't carry a racist meaning. "Uncle Tom" is critical of how certain Black people have collaborated with repressive white power over years; it's not racist to point out that Black people have done that, and become traitors to their own group in the process. You are just assuming, without thinking, that because it's a derogatory term associated with some Black people that it's racist.

[Muddleoftheroad]

238. Yep, it's racist

It doesn't matter who uses the term. The term assumes that there is only one type of activity acceptable to be "really" black. That's racist.

We all have free will. THAT is what it means to be black, Hispanic, white, etc.

[Terran]

323. I disagree

The term assumes that there is only one type of activity acceptable to be "really" black. That's racist.

I don't agree with your statement. If that were true, I would agree that that is racist. But I look at "Uncle Tom" as a political statement. It doesn't imply that only one "type of activity" is acceptable; it implies that one type of activity is unacceptable, and that is not racist. It may be ideological, but so is most of what we agree on here.

"Uncle Tom" describes a person who collaborates with an oppressive power structure for his or her own gain AND to the detriment of that person's peers. In effect, it is a synonym for "traitor," but within the context of race relations in the US. And I don't particularly care what it conveyed in the original novel (which I have read); I'm more concerned with what it means now, and has meant for many decades.

I'm aware that the term has been used in what I would consider a radical extremist way--citicizing anyone who aspires to middle-class conventions. I would never use it that way, and don't consider that a valid use. But Harry Belafonte was correct to label Powell and Rice that way, because those two are enabling the Bush regime, which has actively worked aginst YOUR interests and the interest of African-Americans generally. In this context, I think the best clarification of the term would be to say that it describes someone with no principals whatsoever. That, in my book, cannot possibly be considered racist.

Dirk

[sangh0]

291. Have you ever read the book?

Uncle Tom's Cabin is ABOUT racism. And in the book, Uncle Tom is heroically GOOD. His heart is so generous that he does not hate his masters. In it's use as a slur, the epithet "Uncle Tom" is meant to portray the recipient as someone who kowtows to the wishes of the slaceowners against his own interests. The twisting of the meaning of "Uncle Tom", from someone who is compassionate into someone who cravenly submits to others, is one of the more surprising acts of racism in US history, IMO.

[rinsd]

292. I have....

When going to college I heard the non-tolerant crowd refer to middle class/upper middle African-Americans as Uncle Tom's because they didn't "dress the part". Maybe that would be more equivalent to the also deragatory term that rhymes with tigger and starts with a w.

But if you are saying its the equivalent of calling someone a race traitor, then it seems even worse to me.

Here's some other people who like to throw around that term.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups139.html

[slor]

18. I am Black...

and I believe I have referred to condi and colin as uncle toms' and I will again.

[RandomKoolzip]

21. Drive by flamebait, AGAIN....

And AGAIN, everybody fell for it. "I'll be back again later....once I take off this disguise, sit back and watch the DUmmies tear each other apart, and post all their wacky nutball liberal comments on FR....."


Come on, people. This guy wants us to discuss racism about as much as the media wants us to discuss LIHOP.

[rumguy]

25. exactly

what I find ironic is that we have a poster defending this...

[RandomKoolzip]

32. Everyday, I'm always so impressed by the intelligence on DU,

And at the same time, sighing at the gullibility of many DUers.

STOP TAKING THE BAIT, GUYS!!!!

[fishnfla]

70. Yipee!!!!! Another PC flame war!!!!!

The real question is: who will fan the flames of this one?

[sleepystudent]

109. yeah...

Who is this, Dinesh D'Souza? This sounds again like the pathetic channeling of a young conservative, who uses the term "PC" to dismiss the feelings of someone who is not him or her and doesn't feel like acknowledging that other people with differing viewpoints and attitudes exist. Everyone has to share your sense of humor, everyone must laugh at your jokes, even if they are the butt of them. Please, spare me.

[fishnfla]

197. Young man, since you are unable to be specific, I will

When Rush Limbaugh attacked Donovan McNabb last Fall, DUers of all stripes rose up in outrage and attacked the real rascists in this country. For weeks, this issue was pressed on this forum. Everyday for weeks the boycotts against ESPN and ABC and were pressed, the email links to write letters of complaint were posted,the NFL players union contacted. The outrage was real, actionable.

We, all of us together, agitated. Together, we won, united. Please dont come in here and insult us. Please dont come in here and divide us.

On Edit: As far as being the butt of jokes, you missed the "who is the biggest loser" thread last night in the lounge (I lost by a whisker) :)

As far as taking more action against racists, as you can see I live in the South, OK. I am also the VP of a fully integrated small business. Last week Weds, I had to remove by force a long-time, well paying client from our office after he verbally attacked a young man we have working for us because of his skin color. In front of our staff, in front of other clients, I informed this "gentleman" to "take his rascist redneck ass somewhere else" and out the door he went. Unfortunatly, this is not the first time this has happened in our business. Our staff knows this is our office policy for handling such people. It may not be professional but they appreciate it. Later, RG, the young man, called my wife to thank her. If you'd like , I can have him call you too. He's a great guy, an Army vet. He didn't need my muscle thats for sure, but his feelings were hurt. Our whole office rallied around him that day, even one of the new gals came up and said "we love you, R."

[qanda]

277. You are so right and other examples are

reparations, Haiti, affirmative action, economic disparity of blacks and whites and I could probably go on and on. As a black woman I have found many of the issues that I consider key for black America held more dearly here than in some parts of the black community. Now, if you want to talk about homeschooling-- that's another story... But I digress.

[fishnfla]

300. You're a black woman!?!? I had no idea!

See now, I'm making a stupid joke in attempt to prove a point. An anonymous internet bulletin board is in effect a race and gender neutral entity. For the most part or in theory,anyway. When you are reading and responding to posts its a handle, maybe an avatar, that would give you an idea of the persons background. You cant even use the profile if you want to respond politly with "ma'am" or "sir" (just kidding pbl, the cats out of the bag now ;) That must drive the Magistrate nuts!

So the point is it should be all issues,issues,issues without the prejudice of personality. But we all bring our own prejudices (I happen to have an extreme dislike of liars) and personality baggage with us. But on the issues, like the ones you pointed out pbl, I like to read and learn and respond on topic. Unlike the starter of this thread who only occasionally finds interesting replies, I listen and learn alot.

[gottaB]

306. that's not exactly my recollection regarding Rush Limbaugh

The way I see it, people here (and in the culture generally) preferred to ridicule Rush for his drug use or anal cysts rather than grapple substantively with racism.

And for all the sound and fury, Rush still spews racist hatred, and ESPN totally evaded responsibility for hiring a known racist in order to appeal to latent racists. Apologists for Rush's racism have not eaten crow or lost power and prestige.

That's how I remember it.

[fishnfla]

315. Oh yes, and he is still doing sunday countdown on ESPN

and I and many others spent alot of keyboard time writing letters not to ABC,not to ESPN and not to the NFL players union, and McNabb blew it this season. And now Rush and Chris Berman are going to be married by civil union this coming Saturday in Boston

Yes, it was all just a dream.

[gottaB]

322. Dude, citizen, I see your point and applaud your keyboard activism

But if you don't recognize that stories and comments about Rush's drug abuse outnumber stories about his racism and racism at ESPN, then I think you're either not paying attention, or trying not to face the truth.

Did you know that Rush Limbaugh still has a radio show with millions of listeners, and that the Vice President of the United States recently appeared on his show?

Look, DU is a great place where people can get together and debate the issues of the day, a place where overt racism is prohibited, where liberal and progressive views are priveleged. That's great. However, a not insignificant minority of DUers complain about "political correctness," or strongly assert their right to disagree with a liberal viewpoint, or just ignore it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=462874

In that context, the sensationalism around Rush's drug use seems at the least awfully convenient for people who wish to avoid discussing the implications of a racist media.

Again, kudos to you.

[democracyindanger]

236. "...liberal plantation mentality..."

Hmm...where have I heard that before...oh yeah, that's one of Rush's favorite catchphrases.

Geez, people are stupid.

[GOPisEvil]

23. You can set your watches by these posts.

This is just another attempt to distract us.

[KharmaTrain]

31. Consider Where We Are...

I go to Urbanvibe...a black-oriented web site...good friends of mine operate it and I get a lot of great info from it. It has a message board that I read daily but rarely post on. I see a lot of what could be termed "racist" posts there, but among those who are regulars on the site, these are passed along as part of the "vernacular" as are some of the "Uncle Tom" and other stereotyped names. But that doesn't reflect the people's core beliefs or their overall desire to be open-minded. Some are just not as exposed to racism as you are or think that terms you find offensive are such. Yes, post more often when you find something is worth taking issue with. That helps all of us expand our worlds as well.

There's a lot of cheerleading that goes on at this site. Some is just enthusiasm built with frustration or sugar rush or whatever...and things can get silly or get out of hand. I'll admit my share of name calling and getting a chuckle out of any post picking on the Bush cabal. That's part of the game here. Inversely, I'll pop over to Freeperland, when posted here, to see how the dark side reacts (talk about racist).

This is a very large community...with many special interests...and varying priorities. There's a lot of dischord on many topics, yet the bonding force here is our detest for this regime and the need to remove it for the overall benefit for our nation.

It would be a luxuary to be able to focus on social ills...without a war and a disasterous economy hanging over us.

Cheers!

[FlaGranny]

34. There are quite a few

black members here. They don't often mention that in their posts, though. They'll probably show up on this thread.

If you see what you perceive as racism here, just speak up about it. I don't really see much racism here, but some comments made about Rice and Power might make them seem racist. For your information, though, please look at the comments made about other members of the administration. They get just as many "negative" comments as do Rice and Powell.

I've been on this site from the very beginning and Powell was once very respected here. We thought he was going to be our "insurance" against this administration doing the kinds of things it is doing now, and Powell let us down, big time.

[prodigal_green]

35. I mostly agree

I think it is ridiculous to say that someone is not behaving toward a racial type because they are acting in a way traditionally associated with white males. This always bugged me when people would say Margaret Thatcher was "a man." No, she was a woman. She was a woman who was wrong on just about everything when she was leading the UK, but she was still a woman. Until you accept that people of diverse backgrounds can behave in just as reprehensible ways as people from the dominant culture, you are not taking them seriously and that is racism/sexism.

I grit my teeth whenever I see Dr. Rice on television. I think she is a liar and a shill because she is a liar and a shill. As Jon Stewart said the other night in reply to a question Bob Novak posed, "I didn't even know this deck HAD a race card." I hate her because of the harm she has done to this country, not because she isn't behaving like a good African-American.

Colin Powell traded his credibility to support the President in Iraq. I think that was a politically fatal move. I can't stand to even look at the guy now

You may believe that anybody other than white males who follows the Bush agenda is not acting in what you perceive as their self-interest, but that is the great thing about self-interest, you get to decide for yourself.

[sleepystudent]

38. Just to say...

OK, perhaps I should not have used "racism" That's a big word and one that I do not throw around lightly and should not have thrown out there so lazily-I probably need more sleep. Just "unconscious prejudice" which leads to bothersome phrasing in my mind.

And I am not trying to "smear" this board. I am just going with some of the things I have read that have bothered me. And I am not trying to "distract" anyone. I am so tired of the high school mentality that whenever someone brings up something you don't like or doesn't phrase it correctly(sorry about that), you just scream "Freeper"(I have never even been to Free Republic, just hear about it incessantly on here) and that ends the "discussion".

And I don't have to go to Free Republic to see racism. I know I would see it on there and it would make me sick-that's why I would never go there. But here, where people are, I would think, more open minded, it pops up in really subtle ways and I don't expect it on here, so it bothers me more than it would coming from a right winger.

And if black people refer to other black people as "Uncle Toms" well they have fallen for the same lazy thinking that we all have to act and think a certain way.

Sorry if I pissed you off, but I stand by what I said and I won't let you just jeer at me mindlessly in a pack.

[rumguy]

45. sense of humor, irony

get some

lest your soul shrivels up into nothing

[sleepystudent]

52. here's a suggestion...

If all you can do is trash me personally and not very well, throw out 'Freeper!" "Right Wing" and accuse me of trashing your gang, go somewhere else and do something else. This is not high school and I assume you are more intelligent that your posts would indicate.

[rumguy]

55. it's like what my pappy used to say

if you mess with bull son

you're gonna get the horns

[sangh0]

Can't you ever address the issue?

You have numerous post in this thread, none of which go beyond name-calling and other forms of personal attacks

[rumguy]

161. like this issue

"I'm pretty sure-which suggests that liberal plantation mentality that the blacks better act a certain way and not get too uppity"

There was a reason why Strom Thurmand began a democrat and ended a republican. The Democrats sacrificed for this issue, genuinely, and that is why they get most of the AA vote.

The "liberal plantation mentality" is a repuke-like sour grapes argument...

ok?

got that?

any questions?

for further clarification, see, once again, the post above about my pappy

[sleepystudent]

174. Well that was close to 50 years ago...

It's not 'sour grapes" that's jsut another easy to say phrase that easily dismisses the argument.

In the words of America's poet laureate Janet Jackson-"What Have You Done For Me Lately?"

It seems that a lot of the reason that blacks vote for the Dems is because where else can we go? The Greens don't have enough organization or numbers to make an impact and the situation is dire for many of us-there is 51% unemployment among black men in NYC right now-so we don't have time to help grow a party. 71% of all new AIDS cases among women are among black women. And on and on. Not to say that the answers are all with a political party or an administration, but some help or some acknowledgment of the problem would be in order. As it stands now, many blacks(I guess I can only speak for myself) see white liberal involvement in our concerns as simply showing up at a church, "feeling the spirit", and that's it.

As a younger black guy, I am seeing a lot of younger black men not voting at all because their concerns are not addressed by a bunch of white guys who are still invoking the name of MLK and say they have a good heart as if that's all it takes.

[rumguy]

184. very fuzzy math

it was less than forty years ago

your fuzzy math is illustrative of my overall point

and let's not forget Florida

right, remember that?

huh?

the felon list?

law-abiding blacks scrubbed from the voting list!!!!!

WHO DID THAT?

answer me...

[rumguy]

213. hey SLEEPYSTUDENT, who disenfranchised African-Americans in Fla?

huh?

that's right...

[sleepystudent]

252. well...

who didn't stand with the Congressional Black Caucus to protest, who told us to get over it, who didn't go down to protest, and who was just telling us "we'll get 'em next time" and counting on us to put them over the top without even challenging the felon laws and the ballot design-just taking advantage of our anger to get themselves into office and then ignore our concerns?

You tell me...uh huh, that's right...

Anyway, rumguy, the reason I hadn't responded to your questions is because in all your previous posts I couldn't find a question, I just saw sentence long personal put downs and dismissals-the questions themselves were hard to find

[rumguy]

257. it is progessives that stood with them, OK? taking advantage?

I don't believe a thing you are saying...

go to www.gregpalast.com

if you want the truth...

[sangh0]

289. Your example was only 40 years ago, not 50 years ago

Is that your big argument?

At least it beats your name-calling

And Strom didn't leave the Democratic Party because of PC. He left because the Democratic Party was supportive of civil rights.

[rumguy]

295. Florida was three years ago

And strom left cuz he could no longer be a racist in it - so he went GOP

What about "southern strategy" do you not understand?

[sangh0]

310. What about "southern strategy" do you not understand?

The part where you used Strom to argue that the Dems are to sensitive on racial issues.

[alarcojon]

294. The line between funny and racist

is blurry and people of good will can disagree somewhat over its boundaries. That disagreement doesn't "shrivel your soul up into nothing".

For the record, I am Latino, though it has only come up in my threads when it is directly relevant. We don't all think alike, nor does any other group. But I will say, in defending sleepy, that I have seen some threads on DU which disappoint me because 1) I see an unconscious prejudice AND (this is crucial) 2) I was hoping to find less of this on a progressive board than I would in the society at large.

And I do find less of it here, but it is still here. And we should all be open-minded and self-reflective enough to admit that. I think that is all sleepy was trying to say (please correct me, sleepy, if I misrepresent you).

One last thing: please post more often, sleepy. B-)

[rumguy]

298. sleepy was criticizing intra-racial humor

As evidenced on this thread, many don't have a problem with it...

I was responding to that, and nothing more...

[alarcojon]

303. OK

My point was more general, but I didn't mean to come down on you unfairly.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

50. Be very careful you don't fall prey to that 'unconcious prejudice' also.

'And if black people refer to other black people as "Uncle Toms" well they have fallen for the same lazy thinking that we all have to act and think a certain way.'
As far as I'm concerned, they have a right to use the term, and you do yourself no credit by demeaning them for their choice of words.

[wysimdnwyg]

65. In today's world, it is almost impossible to completely...

eliminate prejudice and racism from our thoughts and words. Many of us - especially those of us here at DU - consider ourselves somewhat enlightened and open minded, but we grew up around it to certain degrees. While we espouse equality and sensitivity, there will occasionally be a remark or action that can be taken in a way that was not intended. Whether it's the "Uncle Tom" comments, or an assumption by a black person that a white person is not as athletically talented, or any of a million other things, we will continue to see it for many years to come.

Don't let these remarks get you upset. If you are truly offended by something, bring it to the poster's attention. In all likelihood, either you misinterpreted the remark, or the author didn't realize the offensive nature of it. A quick note can, in many cases, resolve any issue of that nature, and both will feel better about it, knowing the same remark will likely not come from that author again.

[Logansquare]

39. News Flash-White people can be racist

So how about posting some more and educating (or spanking) us?

[redqueen]

54. News Flash - ALL people can be racist

There are small-minded people of every race and nationality.

[Logansquare]

58. Yes, but she is making the point that she is SHOCKED,

shocked, I tell you, to see that WHITE racism is going on in here. If it isn't worth fighting against, then why bother to complain about it and go back into hiding?

[redqueen]

68. Divide and conquer is all it is

And quite frankly it absolutely sickens me that it's CONTINUALLY so successfully implemented by TPTB.

[sleepystudent]

69. First off...

I'm a guy.

And you seem to mock me for being shocked that white racism exists on here-so are you basically saying that wherever a lot of whites congregate, I should just expect that? That's sort of sad. Even I'm not that cynical. Yet.

People on here should at least be willing to acknowledge and examine what prejudices they have. But it seems more likely that people just say "Nope, not racist." And it's not that simple.

[redqueen]

76. What *I'm* saying is that you'll find racists wherever you seek them

Wherever there is a large group of people -- of ANY race -- you will find some racists.

[Junkdrawer]

42. That's right! To question Rice or Powell at all is racism...

And don't get me started with Air America. :eyes:

[sleepystudent]

47. But...

People have used their race as extra ammo against them, as if "how can they act like this, they're, they're...black!?!?" And sometimes I feel the same way and have to check myself.

And I honestly think that Colin Powell probably would drink himself to sleep every night if he could since even I agree he sold his soul and did not know initially what he was getting into. Condi on the other hand...I was at Stanford when she was Provost and she has always been like this and when the ethnic center controversy came up and she refused them funding, her blackness was called into question and that crossed the line to me. As if being black means all these things and cannot allow for anything more.

[Cassandra]

130. Although Air America did take over WLIB...

it didn't do so completely. Although the website says repeats are on after midnight, after a couple of days of that they actually turned the after-midnight hours back over to some of the original programming. BTW, some of those now complaining that whites took over a struggling station obviously didn't or couldn't do enough to help it turn even a small profit. I think it would be a good idea for someone to help them find a slightly less powerful station that they can afford.

[Junkdrawer]

152. Here's what I think is up with this whole Black/AAR controversy..

The RW doesn't want AAR to see wide distribution. Clear Channel has most of the AM dial locked up, but there is a network of Black radio stations they don't control.

I think there is a much here as there is to the "You can't have a voting paper trail because of handicapped voters". Both are a cynical attempt to advance a RW agenda at the expense of minorities.

[jobycom]

48. I feel the same way

You are right. There is a lot of racism, there are a lot of people who assume that Powell or Rice should "act black," and are "traitors to their race" when they don't, etc. Much of it is well-meaning, much of it still has an underlying racist assumption that black people should act like white people want them to. The biggest falacy I see is the assumption that since black Americans vote overwhelmingly Democrat, that they are overwhelmingly liberal on all issues. As you mention when discussing gay rights issues. I've helped out Greens who make similar assumptions, that blacks should be Green because Greens are more liberal than Dems.

There are also a lot of people who do get it, who avoid such assumptions and attitudes as much as they are able to.

In the old days (not long ago) before DU exploded, there was more legite discussion on race, and more diversity. There were a few black posters who would call the board to task for ridiculous claims or assumptions. But DU lately has changed dramatically. It is harder now to have a discussion. Most people post their thoughts and run to another thread, so there is less back-and-forth, more bomb-lobbing. And fewer people even read entire posts or threads before replying. This makes it harder to address these issues, so whereas before there were fewer threads and there was discussion on each one, now posts get drowned out by sheer numbers of other posters, so a person with a minority viewpoint doesn't get heard as well as just a year ago.

For what it's all worth. I wish more people would read what you said, instead of just reacting instinctively against it. To be fair, when i started reading your post I assumed you were a Freeper trying to sneak in, but by the end you had convinced me you were sincere.

Good post. Post more?

[redqueen]

62. It is not that 'white' people expect black people to act ...

the way 'white' people want them to (I'm putting 'white' in quotes because the assumption seems to be that if you're not black, you must be white - which ticks me right off as a hispanic).

It is that OTHER people reason that since repuglicans' policies are ANTI-ALL-minorities, that maybe they might get a clue about that and not SUPPORT them.

It's nothing to do with forcing someone to act or think as you want them to -- it's everything to do with expecting someone to act in THEIR OWN best interest.

[sleepystudent]

90. Sorry...

About falling for that white or black thing-I've lived in TX, NY, and CA, so I know how diverse we really are. I guess the black stuff is what really pops out at me more-I'm just more sensitive to that.

[redqueen]

121. No worries

It's human. We notice what affects us personally more easily than that which doesn't. Developing empathy is something we all should work more on. And in these times, with the amount of stress and outrage we're all enduring, it's even easier to take a shortcut thought-wise and end up offending someone when chances are that wasn't the intention. Call it latent racism, or lazy thinking, or whatever. I started out not getting why "Brown Sugar" was so bad -- thinking the song was just about a hot black chick. I never liked RS that much so never listened. I read the lyrics... damn! Talk about an educational experience! So it very well may be that some on here also don't know what the song is about, saw the Doonesbury cartoon, and just used it. I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone judged before asking what their intentions were - if they knew the song was offensive, etc.

What chaps my a$$ is that TPTB *use* racial tension to keep the lower classes from uniting in common cause. I understand that different groups have different needs, but when I saw a person of note in the black community here in Dallas call a Hispanic man a 'wetback' over the firing of our police chief... boy I had to wonder what his motives were! Also I can't help but notice how the only police brutality stories that make the 5:00 news are situations where the cop is white and the victim either black or hispanic. TOTAL and OBVIOUS manipulation there, but no one ever seems to call them on it... :grr: I just wish we could all stop falling for the media crap.

That said, I totally understand your point -- if you see racism on this site it's necessary to call it out and address it, if change for the better is the goal.

[jobycom]

150. No, that's not what I'm talking about.

Republican polices are bad for non-whites, and non-rich whites, and any person not of the rich white male category is a fool to support them. That's not my point.

I was with a group of Greens who were promoting an event, and they targetted the black districts in town (and the Hispanic districts), assuming that as a group who votes Democrat, they must be liberals. So we went to black and Hispanic churches and put flyers on cars advertising that we were trying to save a person's right to an abortion. The logic was that since these churches were black, they would probably be pro-choice. Many of the churches were Catholic. Also, in the black district we handed out flyers that highlighted a famous black politician as a speaker at the event. In the Hispanic district, the flyers highlighted a famous Tejano musician who was due to perform-- not even a politician.

It didn't seem to occur to anyone that a) churches were not the best place for a pro-choice message, b) that blacks and Hispanics could have a full range of political ideologies but still vote Democrat because of a few key issues, and c) that blacks and Hispanics might not find the event appealing just because someone of their "ethnic identity" was going to be there. It was simply assumed that black people and Hispanic people would all have the same interests as others in their group.

Predictably, the turnout was almost exclusively white.

This is the attitude that causes Democrats to ignore minority rights and issues, to take them for granted, and worse, to bury them because they would lose white votes. The attitude is that all blacks are similar, so simply putting a Democrat in office is good enough.

That's what I mean. Whites still expect blacks to fall into certain categories. In the case of Powell or Rice, whites feel that they are non-black because they have different opinions than whites feel they should. Inherent in that attitude is the belief that black people should be a certain way, and are wrong if they aren't. That's what I think the original post was about.

As for "white" people meaning "non-black" in my assumption, it didn't. The first post was about white attitudes towards blacks and the subtle racism that often happens. That's all I was commenting on. There was no assumption on my part that other people didn't exist. That just wasn't part of the conversation. "White" bias against Hispanics is a different type of attitude. A south Texas Democrat is planning to switch to the Republican party, and that was discussed here a couple of days ago. I never saw anyone say he was a "disgrace to his race," or "white." He was castigated as a party turncoat, and it may have been mentioned that his constituents would not be as well-served by the Republican Party. But the feeling that he had to be a certain way or he was not really Hispanic was not there. Maybe there's more awareness that "hispanic" comprises a variety of different national and cultural backgrounds, which cuts down on the assumption of homogeneity. I don't know. But the assumptions are different.

[redqueen]

183. Very well put

I understand and agree. And thanks for the effort making all that clear. It's appreciated.

[jobycom]

176. And, is it good for people to act "in their own best interests?"

To me being a Democrat is about overcoming that instinct, to take everyone's interest into account. To me, that's the absolute fundamental difference between Democrats (though not all Democrats)and the other parties.

[redqueen]

189. Yes I realized that error in another post and corrected my wording

Should have been 'community' interest. It occurred to me as I was responding to another post that the real crime isn't that Rice or Powell have betrayed the black community, it's that they've betrayed the people they represent. Just as Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. have done.

Is it possible that part of this might stem from the assumption that of course whites will stab each other in the back to make a buck, but it's perceived as somehow more egregious when a minority or gay person does it?

*sigh*

Thanks for the discourse. :)

[sendero]

53. Welcome to DU...

... but I have to say that I think if you are looking for racism you will see it, both where it exists and where it does not.

[sleepystudent]

60. I don't think I'm looking for it.

That's the point though...I'm not looking for it at all on here. And whenever people bring up what they feel are insensitive statements or attitudes, they are accused of "looking for it" But it comes up more than I would like or expect it to and that bothers me. I am not saying it could be eliminated because this is part of the real world, but I think it should be acknowledged and we shouldn't think having the mantle of "progressive" absolves us of it.

[mzmolly]

77. Next time you see "racism" here, point it out immediately, you'll have

more credibility that way.

The way I see it, you could be a 50 year old white republican trying to stir shit up?

[sleepystudent]

84. Sorry I'm not a 50 yr. old white repub

I guess for a lot of people on here my being a Free Republic troll who posts once, stirs shit up and leaves would make them feel better about DU and about themselves, but no...I'm a 27 yr old black guy.

[mzmolly]

104. As I said, we have no way to know that do we?

:shrug:

We have other people of color who post here, but right now you have 33 posts and are critiqing the people on this site.

It's like a person you barely know, telling you your brother is an asshole. Even if my brother was an asshole, it's more appropriate if I know someone a while before they take such liberties.

Get to know the people here, post a while, then you'll have more credibility.

[sangh0]

151. We don't who you really are either, mzmolly

but I won't accuse you of being a Freeper who is trying to discourage blacks from supporting Dems by pooh-poohing the concerns of a black American.

[mzmolly]

313. Uhm, No shit Sangh0

But, you do have a better idea of who *I* am than anyone with 33 posts?

Also, I am not poo-pooing anything, nor am I groveling or pandering. What I said was - I am leary of anyone who has 33 posts coming here to critique DU by essentially calling the people here racists.

Further, I think the concerns of *Americans in general* differ regardless of race. I don't speak for all women, I don't speak for all minorities, and the OP does not speak for all of Black America. As you can see other Black Americans on this forum have made similar statements to my own. :hi:

For the record, I am not fond of Sharpton, Rice or Powell as all are linked heavilly to the Republican Party. I make no apologies for my distaste for any of them, as I have not used racially derogatory terms to express my feelings. Nor will I curtail criticism of any political figure whom I disagree with regardless ...

[sendero]

80. Well...

... I'm a white man (I am raising a black stepson FWIW) and so I realize that I might not be in a position to see things the way you do.

At some level, I guess that I try to take a person's intent into account. And I also guess that I'd have a different idea of what consitutes racism than you do. I think some of the examples you cited illustrate some problems. OTOH, other examples don't.

In any event, once again, Welcome to DU :hi:

[noiretextatique]

95. i despise both powell and rice...but you have a point about racism

in general. i'm black...and i have an especial dislike for powell and rice because: THEY ARE WORKING FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN ESPECIAL DISLIKE FOR PEOPLE, IN GENERAL, AND PEOPLE OF COLOR, WOMEN, AND GAYS AND LESBIANS, IN PARTICULAR
how convienent it is for them both to profess support for affirmative action when their boss uses code language like "quotas" when discussing the subject. i detest these collaborators...they are no different from other collaborators in our history.
this is why black people, in particular, detest powell and rice...wouldn't you agree? and i think it's why some of our progressive friends do as well.
however, i agree with you that other dynamics are at work here (we are mostly americans, after all)...i see this whenever sharpton or jesse jackson or mentioned. or when someone posts some article about the black vote. or when there are OJ threads, and people talk about how their support for affirmative action ended with OJ's acquittal. or reparations...forget about it. or any racism thread...they usually devolve into definitions...as in, everybody is racist.
i have been frustrated by racial discussions here...but not always. there are some really great minds, hearts and souls here...and they far outnumber the people who don't think or just want to agitate or be provacative...and those who really just don't get it. what do you expect anyway? have you forgotten where you are?
peace :D

[mzmolly]

128. Exactly...!

" have always been frustrated by racial discussions here...but not always. there are some really great minds, hearts and souls here...and they far outnumber the people who don't think or just want to agitate or be provacative..."

:toast:

[sangh0]

159. Yes, SHarpton is repeatedly slammed for thinga he did decades ago

while Sen. Byrd's former membership in the KKK and his support for Repuke-freindly coal corporations hasn't kept him from being idolized here on DU.

[redqueen]

203. Oooh good point!

Seeing those two examples put next to each other just had a big impact on me. Wow... *shakes head*

Oh well, FWIW, I don't care about what either man did decades ago. Everyone can make a mistake, and deserves help and support if they seem to be improving, IMO.

[sangh0]

293. Sen Byrd continues to support Repuke-friendly energy corporations

to this day

[Kanary]

56. You are quite right about your assessment

but, given the nature of DU, I doubt there will be much listening.

Unfortunately, the atmosphere established here is not so much one of listening to each other, and working for understanding, but the goal of shooting down each other's statements. Actually, it's quite a bit of one-up-manship.

So, you have stated the situation quite accurately, and I would hope that it will lead to some change of attitude here. But, I won't be holding my breath. I hope you can find a way to express your viewpoint, as there are some of us here who DO like to understand others. But, it is understandable if it's more effort than it is worth.

Thank you for your thoughtful appraisal. You certainly aren't "incoherent". You stated it quite eloquently.

Thank you.

Kanary

[CrownPrinceBandar]

91. Then why are you here?.....

If the atmosphere here at DU is SO unproductive, why do you have over 2000 posts? Isn't it tantamount to beating your head against the wall to persist in an environment where you are seemingly frustrated at every turn, as you seem to indicate?

[sleepystudent]

93. Well...

That's like asking black people why they still live in the United States.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

115. My question was for Kanary..

and why if they were so frustrated with DU, why do they post so much. See my reply to your original post below.

[Kanary]

119. Sleepy is welcome to post in reply to anything I say

Your curt cutoff illustrates much.

Kanary

[CrownPrinceBandar]

136. Illustrates what...

your ability to make generalizations?

[noiretextatique]

102. why are you here?

i assume it's not because you love everything about this site.

[Kanary]

110. Same reason you are

I lived through the "America: Love it or Leave It" era, and that didn't shut me up, either.

Kanary

[CrownPrinceBandar]

132. Please dont mistake my response as flame bait....

Your response to Sleepy made it sound as if you were really unhappy posting here. I just wondered why you were sticking it out. If its to fight in the "belly of the beast", I salute you. You just didn't make that clear (to me at least). I agree with you and Sleepy for the most part, DU is not immune to prejudice (see response to original post below). However, I feel that the positives far outstrip the negatives.

[chimpymustgo]

92. Second you Kanary. Racism is alive and well at DU.

Sleepy students' examples re Sharpton/Dean and Air America are on the money. But once again - they are just DISMISSED by too many. Nanananananana
"I am not a racist". "You can find racism anywhere if you're looking for it".

How about dealing with the specific charges - you know - the way we'd like the Bushistas to respond to Richard Clarke.

[mzmolly]

112. Is Sharpton a racist?

He targeted Dean. He was helped by Republicans!?

Sorry, Sharpton gets zero sympathy from me.

[slinkerwink]

126. no, but sharpton is more of an antisemite

[mzmolly]

131. Ahhhh....

;) :hi:

[chimpymustgo]

146. The specific point is that Sharpton was hailed as "the man",

till he took on Dean. Then he became a loudmouthed jerk to many around here. Some of that has less to do with Sharpton and race than the Dean worship around here (anything against Dean = EVIL).

I thought the dismissiveness about Air America's lack of diversity to be extremely troubling. There was quite a bit of "you should just be grateful and shut up."

I am grateful that we have Air America - but I think the station has insulted its audience - and the most loyal constituency of the Democratic Party - by not having more black (and other minority) voices on its air.

[slinkerwink]

96. they're all about the "bitchslaps" in here against women

and using "uncle tom" or "brown sugar" against african-americans.

:eyes:

[Kanary]

175. "Bitchslaps"?

OMG, slinkerwink, you and I are gonna be labeled, forever and always, as "Disrupters", donchaknow.

Heaven forbid we should actually establish boundaries and point out junk, eh?

Oh wait... that means we are hopelessly PC, which means we're "commies".....

"Commies" "Disrupters".... "Let's call the whole thing off...."

:)

:hi: to another troublemaker....

Thanks for your listening spirit......

Kanary

[slinkerwink]

202. heh, that's what happens when women speak up, is that they're

told that their concerns aren't valid, or that they don't know what they're talking about by men, etcetera, etcetera.

I've been called sexless, a prude, and so many other things. Too bad they don't know my sex life ;-)

[Kanary]

262. DO tell, slinkerwink! *pant* *pant* *pant* ^_^

Yes, a black person says he/she is uncomfortable with incidences of racism, and that's "Divide and conquer"

Women object to sexism, and it's a fig newton of their imagination.

Poor people talk about how they are dismissed and used, and it's "Pity party"

Yet, come election time, we should all just bow down and worship the Dem party as being the saviour of us all.

There're a few dots needing connecting, here.

Anyone got a pencil?

Kanary

[slinkerwink]

335. when we connect the dots, we'll find hypocrisy---blatant hypocrisy

[BiggJawn]

74. So how do you feel about the term "Tar-Baby"?

As used to describe what Bush has gotten us into in Iraq?
I'm using it in the notion that the harder you slap and pull on it, the tighter it sticks and binds you.

There was a thread yesterday concerning the overt or covert Racism in using the term.
Your thoughts?

[redqueen]

78. "Brown Sugar" by the Rolling Stone is about a rapist slaveowner?

Holy crap!

[Guaranteed]

129. Yup...and guess what "Sympathy for the Devil" is about....

}(

[redqueen]

215. Not a clue!

I mean, there's the obvious... but...

I think they're alright, but way overrated, IMO. Hence the not listening to the words habit. :)

Who is "You're so Vain" about? ;)

[ACK]

85. I see it

The anger has poured into underlying latent prejudice when the word "Brown Sugar" starts to be thrown around in describing the disgusting behavior of the horrible person that is Condi Rice.

Also, the South hate is so evident. A number of people here are ready to write off every black and progressive struggling in the South. I am from the South. I am straight, white, male, married with two kids and a house. My neighbors are a white married couple with no kids and a house. We are all Democrats and liberals. Not every white person in the South is a neocon freak. Some people look to states in the midwest that have been Repuke forever, ready to write off the South where Repub candidates win by much smaller numbers.

I also hate the term "articulate" which is always used in reference to black people in public light. What did you expect black people to all coming out talking "street" and in your face? Give me a break.

[bhunt70]

86. good post.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

99. I don't like this black/white either/or dichotomy.

For those of us on the board who are Irish or are of Irish descent, I can assure everyone that inter-race bigotry, sectarian bigotry and racism against less-economically powerful groups like the Irish, Italians, Jews and so on is equally as vicious as simple racism based on skin tone. In fact, I would say that racism is not a matter of colour, it's a matter of power structure.
My grandmother used to tell me of her troubles trying to find a place to stay in London in the fifties. In so many boarding houses that she could afford to stay in, she would see the same small cardboard sign in the window that stated 'No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish.'
Racism is an economic issue. I don't look at it in terms of Black/White/Brown etc, I see it as a matter of who was the power and who doesn't.

[redqueen]

228. Damn!

I already said best post earlier! Okay, it's a tie! (LOL - who appointed me judge?)

Anyway, I *love* what you're saying here, because it backs up my soapbox rant about how TPTB use 'issues' like race / nationality to *divide* the powerless.

In early America, white immigrants from Ireland, Poland, etc. were treated like crap just like immigrants from other countires are today.

It's totally about power... spot on! :)

[sleepystudent]

241. In general, black people are *not* immigrants

And now white immigrants are not treated like crap...good for them. Black people *still* are. And we weren't exactly immigrants. Black people are *still* relatively powerless. We have been ever since we got here. Immigrants are taught through representations in the media, spatial segregation, etc., that blacks are bad, that blackness is to be feared, vilified and avoided.

And it's nice that people on here are so enlightened that they think that race/nationality are constructs and we can all hold hands and go into the future together. But DU is not the real world(very far from it) and they don't think the way you do and sooner or later you might have to log off and deal with them.

[redqueen]

254. No arguments there

I'm Hispanic and living in Texas, and there's a huge amount of hostility against Hispanics due to illegal immigration so please spare me the lecture.

Please allow me to ask you a question... do you have any idea why some Africans bleach their skin? I have read that even in Africa, darker blacks are made to feel inferior. Same with every country. I have heard my co-workers here say that in India, darker Indians are looked down on by lighter Indians. Ditto with S. America, Mexico, etc. etc. etc.

And even where there's not a skin color difference, e.g. in France, different regions will line up against each other.

I think there are bigger issues here that we may be ignoring. I'm not dismissing the smaller sub-issues. They're certainly more examples, but clearly there is more to this than black vs. white.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

248. Thanks.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

108. Sleepy..

I agree with you to the point that DU reflects the problems that exist in our society. Yes, there is racism here. There is sexism, and classism too. Don't know if you were privy to the whole "bitch" debate, and that certain terms may be considered too inflammatory for use at DU. I brought up a largely ignored point that if sexist hate speech such as calling a woman a "bitch" was beyond the pale, why not the word "redneck"? Doesn't that count as a class prejudice? I also brought up the name-calling about the south, that is also prejudicial. I see DU as a mirror on real-world society; what afflicts us there, afflicts us here.

Thanks for the post.

[redqueen]

232. I've also noticed the double standard

for 'redneck' and 'white trash' types of comments. IMO they do count as hateful and, IMO, racist.

[rman]

114. you must be reading a different DU then i do. n/t

-

[Wapsie B]

116. Flaimbait on this site......................

The closer we get to ousting chimpy, the more we'll see flame threads here.

[sleepystudent]

127. Um,no...

Listen I come from a democratic family in Texas. We fought him in 1994, I had family members who personally suffered under him, I have known how bad he is probably a hell of a lot longer than you. So don't you dare call me a flamer. I don't post a lot on here, SFW? I really do mean what I wrote, and dismissing me in one sentence without addressing the argument won't cut it. why just build up to it over a thousand posts? Why not just say it and let it out? I knew the accusations of "flame bait" "freeper" and whatever would come up because a lot of people don't want to be bothered with thinking I guess. I get the impression that a lot of people on here think posting here 10 trillion times is all they have to do to get W. out of office. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some people that post here so much they just forget to vote.

[slinkerwink]

134. I've also been called a right-wing freeper for bringing up sexism

in here. It's an easy way to dismiss my arguments against the sexism in here :shrug:

[LeahMira]

118. So, I'm listening...

But the term "Uncle Tom" has been thrown around in regards to Powell and Rice. And some criticism has suggested that their race implores them to act a certain way.

I think that Democrats generally feel that they advocate for the rights of all people, African-Americans among them. Maybe we are just telling ourselves that so we can feel good. I think that we are sort of disappointed to find that many African-Americans feel that what we are trying to do is not enough or is inadequate in its focus or that we only do those things that don't threaten our own position. I know that it is not for white people to decide what African-Americans want and need. I also understand that all black people don't think alike. Who are the people that you think we should be paying attention to and supporting? Or what do you wish that we would understand?

The discussion of the Air America radio station taking over a historically black radio section: the complaints of blacks were completely dismissed with the attitude that "well, they shouldn't complain, we had the money, and anyway, we all have the same concerns, so they can just listen to us" Well, no, actually, the concerns are not the same.

It's probably going to sound crazy to you, but whether you see it this way or not, though, we liberals feel underrepresented in the media and are so excited about the fact that they now have "a radio station of our own" that we are defensive about it. I agree that blacks have every reason to feel angry at the loss of a station that focused on their concerns. Probably we white liberals should have been listening to that station also!

There was a thread lamenting the fact that black people have not risen up to support the gay marriage struggle

Well, in truth, there are probably many issues that are more important to the black community, but there are black people who are gay. Can you explain why those people are reluctant to support it?

The South has the largest black population in the country and it is growing as blacks tire of the racism in the Northeast and the West and return home.

It seems to me that racism is far more open in the South and far more an overt part of the Southern culture than it is in the North. So, it would be very helpful if you could give some examples that would help me understand your point of view.

I could go and on, but this is already too long and incoherent and I can just come back and add more later

I hope you do come back later. I think that we white liberals are sort of at the identity level while we need to be educated about the access to power issues. Does that make sense to you?

[ACK]

164. Are you trying to make his point for him?

I think that Democrats generally feel that they advocate for the rights of all people, African-Americans among them. Maybe we are just telling ourselves that so we can feel good. ... I know that it is not for white people to decide what African-Americans want and need.

Uhhhh....

Huh, its not like we are advocating for people with no voting rights.

African American are active members of the Democratic party.

No, it is not for white people to decide and they don't. This is why the Black Caucus and other organizations within the Democratic party voice influence in the platform and the positions of the party.

The tone of that whole paragraph seemed like an affirmation of the liberal plantation mentality.

We are not doing stuff for the helpless black folks out there. African Americans are our equal partners (voice not numbers) in trying to forge a progressive future for this country.

It seems to me that racism is far more open in the South and far more an overt part of the Southern culture than it is in the North. So, it would be very helpful if you could give some examples that would help me understand your point of view.

Historically, Northerners tend to forget about the New York race riots during the Civil War.

They tend to forget that black people moving into white neighborhoods were greeted with rocks in their windows and slurs painted across their houses in the late sixties and early seventies.

Also, I remember just recently about a kid in a Northern city who was killed for riding his bike into the wrong neighborhood and how every black person interviewed after said they knew not to go into that white only neighborhood.

It is only more overt in terms of the voices of elected officials.

we white liberals

I might be white and you might be white but using "we"?

Isn't that awfully inclusive of you?

Certainly I hope you are not implying the racial status of all DU'ers out here.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

124. I think you raise some valid points.

Although I don't agree with how you regard the use of the term Uncle Tom. I myself am a Latin American of African descent. I use the term as others would use Benedict Arnold. As it was pointed out by someone else here.

I have to say that I do agree with you in general about let's call them ignorant comments sometimes by people here who may or may not be white.

To my white Anglo bros and sis. I have to tell y'all that you may not always know what constitutes prejudiced comments to some of us. And the same applies to us when we lump whites together as if they were all the same. I'm not that "black" but I'm also not that "white". So a lot of people feel comfortable saying things to me that they wouldn't say to blacks. I've experienced it from liberals and right wingers. It's not always that nice or smart what comes out of these people's mouths sometimes. Even coming from liberals.

Overall I think people here are cool. Although I see the occasional white Bronco references about Ms Rice and the "Whatchu' talking 'bout" comments. I can see why some people would be pissed off by these.

I also read green card jokes and others about Hispanics when people think they're not on our side. This might not be racist as it is ignorant. I used to get in a lot of fights here about things like that. I try not to anymore because to me it's a waste of time. I'm usually called a radical fringe hypersensitive something or other. Which may or may not be the case. Who knows?

I know the majority of people here are white. I think that's a given. That makes me proud in the sense that it shows that you're not all represented by the likes of bush and the rest. As the polls would have us believe. But also you might want to engage this person in dialog instead of shitting all over them because you think he is wrong in his opinion of the site.

To quote Rumsfeld " Was this long winded? Sure. Am I going to do it again?. Who knows. Will some people think it's all bullshit? You bet. Do I care? Nope"

Later, peace out.

[redqueen]

259. I know what you mean

Growing up half white-half hispanic, I got to hear insults from both sides... wetbacks... coconuts... It makes it hard to automatically defend either side when you see both the positive and negative aspects of both sides.

[Carolina]

125. hey, sleepy, DU is benign

I'm black, female, over 50 and remember all too well the bad ole days. I have also been at DU a long time lurking since its inception and obviously posting and donating. I don't mind the candor of my fellow DUers even when I disagree with some.

That said, herewith a few points:

-Dean supporters were right to challenge Al when he went after Dean on the racial composition of his gubernatorial cabinet. Afterall, how many Black people are there in Vermont?! It was an unnecessary distraction when there were/are so many bigger issues, bigger fights ...

-Yes, I do agree that civil rights for us was and is different than gay rights. And frankly, most home folks I know don't really give a rip about gay marriage because they're too preoccupied with economic and education issues. I think we also don't think there is the same level of hatred: systemic, codified by law, part of the core of the (first) civil war, in some measure founded on the belief of Blacks being inferior... But discrimination is discrimination and when you're the victim, your plight is always worse than that of another group ...

-Dismissing the south is not about dismissing Blacks or the Black vote. I now live in the friggin south (but sure as hell glad I didn't grow up here) and sometimes I feel it's a lost cause ... ignorance and deceit keeps the poor (White and Black) in their places.

-Condi is just bad news (like Clarence Thomas, Ward Connerly, Thomas Sowell and yes, Colin Powell ...). If some of the descriptives, epithets and jokes, etc. DUers use about them bother you, I suggest you get with black folks only and see what we say about these n---ahs in non-mixed company. Also check out Free Republic and see what they say about Jesse or Al or Blacks in general (not that we seek to emulate them).

As for prejudices, everybody (progressive or rightwing) has them ... admit it or not, like it or not. We all make judgements about people based on any number of characteristics. Wrong or right, sometimes those assessments turn out to be true. Blacks talk about whites and Whites about Blacks. Overall, it's what people DO and how they ACT. The terms of description used against Condi or Colin here are used against THEM ONLY, NOT as some indictment of the whole race.

Lurk some more or not. But also bear in mind, this is a place for ALL of us to VENT without having to be PC.

[redqueen]

239. Is it just me?

Or does this thread have some of the best posts ever?!

Well said, Carolina. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on those points. :)

[Guaranteed]

133. Okay...who's racist?

Point 'em out! Tell us what they did!

We'll string 'em up!

[smirkymonkey]

139. I appreciate your post and I think

you have a good point. What disturbs me though, is after reading many of the defensive replies to your post is that, as usual, many people simply get defensive without stopping to consider your feelings or the issues that you have raised. The same thing happened on the sexism post.

I am white, but I also know that I am probably not as aware or as conscious of the racism that it so woven into the fabric of our society as to be barely perceptible by so called "objective" scientific methods. However I understand how this institutionalized racism can be a constant assault on the consciousness of those it affects.

I have said it in the sexism threads and I will repeat it here: If you are not a member of the group (black, gay, female, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) of the poster who is bringing their grievance to our attention at DU, then you have no place in telling the poster HOW they should feel and that their perceptions do not exist.

The world would be a much better place if people would just hear each other out and try to learn or become enlightened about these issues - racism, sexism, gay-bashing, etc. - instead of immediately dismissing the charges. Knee-jerk defensiveness is just as ugly here as it is on freeper sights. Just because WE may not see it, due to our particular frame of reference, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[slinkerwink]

144. and that's why the mob mentality in dismissing those important

issues of sexism and racism bothers me.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

163. But one problem is that when the posts are unspecific

like this one, we feel insulted. Tarring the entire board with the same brush never leads to reasoned debate. When I read posts telling me how bad DU is, I take it personally. In debates like this both sides should be very careful of making sweeping generalizations. Otherwise, you'll just piss each other off and lead to a yelling match.

[Kanary]

186. When posts are "specific", they're erased as a personal attack

One thing I learned a long time ago...

When I'm talking with someone who is open, and caring and willing/able to listen, even if I don't express it perfectly, we have a dialogue and come to some understanding, because both of us are interested in coming to understanding.

When I"m talking with someone who isn't interested in understanding, but only wants to prove their superiority, it doesn't matter how perfectly I express myself.. I won't be heard. There will always be *SOME* reason why what I said wasn't worth listening to.

We can listen to each other...

........ or not.

We can give another person some benefit of the doubt, and some leeway for trying to express themselves............................. .......................... or not.........

It's a basic stance in life.

We choose where we want to be with others.

Kanary

[Guaranteed]

204. If we have racists on this site, we need to kick them out.

And I'm serious. This site should not be tolerating racism. That's Free Republic stuff.

WHO are the racists, and WHAT did they do?

[sleepystudent]

227. Like I said before...

I used racism when I should have used a milder word-I know that there are no people typing on here while wearing a white hood. I didn't mean that. I just meant that there is very subtle prejudice in the some of the language used on here and I assume that reflects the posters attitudes. I am just saying that it should be acknowledged more-I know it could not be eliminated. Maybe I should just do it more myself. Sorry I should not have used the term racism-I should have used something else less inflammatory.

[1songbird]

158. Hi Sleepystudent thanks for posting this.

I'm also black and I have definitely noticed some of the problems you've mentioned. There is no utopia even among liberals or progressives when it comes to race issues. There are jerks everywhere and this forum is no different. Welcome to DU.

[pezcore64]

167. well

I havent see any direct racist remarks on here before, nor do I recall being asked my race, tho Id imagine thats a question you wouldnt have to answer if you didnt want to.
usually required info has something like a * by it.

as far as 'uncle tom'
id imagine it was being used to say that bush controls them like 'uncle tom'. he does want them to fall into line. he does want them to give into their own personal thoughts and blindly follow him. condi mite be into it, but i know for a fact mr powell wont be coming back in any bush administration cause hes had enuff of the BS and being used as a puppet because of his race, stance with the people, and outstanding record of service.
people used to say all the time "i wouldnt mind collin powell being president!" but id say youd be hard press to find one now. even democrats liked the guy alot before he became another puppet in a giant puppet regime.

[rumguy]

168. A blatant falsehood

"The most segregated communities in America are almost all in the Northeast and Rust Belt."

Yet again...it goes on and on....

[sleepystudent]

180. God, if you are going to leave yourself open like that...

I just have to take the bait even though I know I shouldn't. Here you go.


http://www.detnews.com/specialreports/2002/segregation/b03-390169.htm> Hope you enjoy it

[rumguy]

195. this is the money shot in that article you "cite"

" * Slow growth: Researchers say there is a strong relationship between population growth and segregation. Fast-growing regions tend to integrate more quickly; slow-growing regions such as Metro Detroit have seen only small decreases in segregation, as measured by the index of dissimilarity."

Racial tensions are still far worse in the South, leading to day-to-day segregation in small towns that wouldn't be picked up in a census like this...

Do some research on actual facts, not statistics that mean little when taken out of context...

I remember Charles Barkley, in an interview describing it perfectly, that in the South, there was ALWAYS an undercurrent of racial tension, different than anywhere else...

[ACK]

230. WTF?

leading to day-to-day segregation in small towns

My grandmother lives like two houses down from a row of black families in the Deep South of Southeastern Georgia.

Fast-growth? Silly one of the fastest growing regions of the nation is the South (ie the Sunbelt). You are destroying your own point with that one.

Slow-growing regions? The slow-growing rustbelt with their still segregated neighborhoods by both racial and still many time ethnic lines.

Yes, there is a racial tension in the South different than anywhere else.

It is because of the history of slavery, segregation and the fact that oh my god black and whites actually live near each other and interact.

[rumguy]

235. you misread - fast growth areas will statistically show less segregation

at least according to the article that he "cited"

unlike slow growth areas like Detroit...

statistics do not speak to underlying realites...

you can live close and still never interact...

duh

[ACK]

247. That is what I am saying .. South is fast growth region

less segregation.

Rustbelt = slow growth and more segregation.

+

[rumguy]

249. ok

[Ripley]

251. Since you don't live in the south.

How the hell would you know?

[rumguy]

258. my relatives live in the south

on my dad's side

I also read

[ACK]

187. Interesting

Are you ignoring white flight into the suburbs?

Are you ignoring the fact that many Northern cities still have neighborhoods that are ethinically and racially divided? In fact, they have always had neighboorhoods that were racially and ethinically divided. Look at the traditional neighboorhood lines of most Nothern cities and that was de facto segregation at its best.

Or are you referring to more recent trends in the ninties of rich yuppies moving back to the cities to have shorter commutes?

[Guaranteed]

191. Right...but who on DU is racist?

I thought someone was saying that we've got racists amongst us...

[ACK]

208. Not necessarily ... take it like this

There are people throwing around "Uncle Tom" and "Brown Sugar" remarks without any sense of disclaimers.

There are people here ready to write off the South without any concern to the black voters, the growing hispanic votes and the white progressives in the South trying to claw back and take back the South.

Don't tell me its impossible looks at LA and VA with Warner. No, they are not screaming progressives but they are not ultra-right-wing Repukes either.

There are people here using very condescending tones when they talk about the minority vote and how those minorties should vote, act and think.

I think it is a problem that some liberals here among us are not very sensitive or aware of the language they are using and need a wake up call.

Notice I did not say anything about bans or limits to speech on this forum.

+

[Name removed]

222. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ACK]

234. Because you use stereotypes the same as racist do

I am not part of that ultra-conservative politics.

White male 35 years of age, wife, kids and a house.

The South has more registered Dems and Dems lose by smaller margins in the South.

Southerners actually do elect Dems to office occasionally like in LA and in Virginia with Mark Warner.

You do not say Fuck the ultra-conservative fundie Bush-enablers.

You pick a whole region with African American progressives and white liberals and a growing hispanic community to insult and write off.

It seems that you are just ignorant in some ways as those you rail against.

[Guaranteed]

261. I'm not using fucking stereotypes.

I'm using THIS:



Does that look like a STEREOTYPE to you?

In case you didn't notice, this is a political message board. When people say, "Fuck the South," and write them off, they mean it politically. They don't mean "Fuck every single person in the South," which is what you seem to WANT them to mean, because that would make them ignorant. And they CERTAINLY didn't say "Fuck the blacks" or "Fuck the Hispanics"- this has nothing to do with race, in fact. This is a matter of GEOGRAPHY, and POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY.

What they're saying is that they are unwilling to try to win over the predominantly and VERY CONSISTENTLY conservative Southern states BY PANDERING TO THEIR CONSERVATIVE ISSUES.

There is no ignorance or racism involved. This is standing up AGAINST racism.

So don't you EVER call me, or ANYONE else either IGNORANT or RACIST every again. Your IGNORANCE does not allow you to be trusted with using such SERIOUS FUCKING TERMS and CHARGING PEOPLE WITH THEM.

[Ripley]

276. Then why don't you say Fuck The West?

I see a lot of red outside the south. But I guess everyone in Montana is a liberal, because THANK THE LORD they aren't WHITE SOUTHERNERS.

[ACK]

282. Ok then Fuck the North Western States...

Seems awfully red to me.

Appears that you just need a scapegoat for your anger.

You are standing up to racism by writing off a whole area of the country and abandoning any hope of forming a coalition of voters that can bring more states into the Blue?

That makes sense.

Sure...

I also did not call you racist.

I am reminding you of all the progressives your knee-jerk reactionary statement writes off.

I did call you ignorant in your remarks and I stand behind that.

You do not have to pander to the radical right to form a coalition of ex-pat yankees, liberal to liberal centrist whites, African Americans and hispanics to take Southern politics away from these ignorant toads curently in power.

How can a Progressive win in the South?

Listen I have lived in the South my whole life. Dems lose by closer margins in the South than in many other Republican dominated areas.

So, how can a Progressive Dem politico win in the South. Do some research about the governor race in LA and look at Mark Warner and then think about these points.

Listen you admit you are for a woman's right to choose and then shut up. The fundies will not vote for you anyway.

You are for hunters. Half of your PR photos in the South be you with a shotgun in your hand beside a nascar racing car.

Pump up the volume on tax credits for the working poor and closing loopholes for those rich folks who don't want to pay their taxes.

You talk about conserving nature for future generations of kids to enjoy. Talk about keeping the water clean to fish in and places for people to hunt.

Talk about connecting people to jobs. Getting folks off of welfare and into the workforce in a real way, a compassionate way. Dumping folks with no hope just makes no sense.

Talk about targetting education spending to those rural schools that have been left out and unfunded for too long.

Talk about small business initiatives and getting tough with corporations that want to run rough-shod over the small towns.

Talk about helping out family farmers with loans and subsidies to protect them because all the foreign farmers are protected the same way.

Talk about fiscal responsibilty and the need for the government to pay its bills and not borrow and spend its way into debt.

Wrap yourself up in the Bill of Rights and talk about getting government out of their personal lives.

You wrap progressive politics around a populist voice.

If you want examples look up Mike Warner's campaign in VA. He aimed his message at the people and in a Repuke dominated state came up tops

[rumguy]

205. this issue is racial tension

I've lived all over, there is more of it in the south and segregation, day to day, is much worse...

that's what I mean

[ACK]

218. But that is not what he said.

Segregation is not the same as racial tension and that varies widely in the South.

Honestly, one of the best places I have ever seen for a black person to get a fair shake, seems to be Atlanta. Between Spellman and Morehouse and some damn good neighborhoods, the only downside is crappy public schools inside and outside of the city. Heck until I moved from Virginia the last four managers I had were all black. My CEO at Sales Technologies was black now Synavant I think. It just seemed from a white guy wandering around and living in the city a place filled with opportunity.

Considering how segregated most neighborhoods and communities are in many Northern urban areas the lack of racial tension is to be expected.

After all, its hard to have tensions when the communities rarely interact at all.

+

[rumguy]

231. well I guess we have different expierences

I've never been to ATL so I can't speak about it

But there is segregation as a statistic, and segregation as a day-to-day reality...

statistics sometimes lie, or at least don't tell the whole truth

[ACK]

242. This is true and this is cool

Not trying to defend the South.

Trying to get people to stop villifying the South using the same types of generalizations and stereotypes that progressives have railed against for years.

I want to bring my part of the country into the progressive populist fold.

I understand that between the yankee implants, white liberals, African Americans (if we stop talking at black people and starting talking as one community), and a growing hispanic vote, this is not a lost cause.

I have seen both sides.

I have been called a "nigger lover" and seen the burnt hulk of a cross.

I have also talked to guys from Philly that said that no "nigger" would come into their neighborhood or they would bash their heads in with a brick. Needless to say that was my cue to exit that scene.

I am tired of the self-righteousness that breeds contempt between liberals and those in the South trying to make a change for the better.

+

[pezcore64]

190. haha

yeah really
maybe he needs to take a trip to the south one day ;)

[sleepystudent]

200. I'm from the South...

and I live in NY now and the segregation I see here is as bad or even worse than it was back home. In terms of overt racism, I have been called "nigger" just as much here as there. Stop patting yourself on the back for where you happen to live. It says nothing about you.

221. off subject very slightly

If you get up to over 1000 posts and repost something similar to what you posted today, you'll get the exact same response probably. Except instead of people saying you have a low post count so you must be a freeper, they'll say you're a freeper who has suddenly revealed himself after racking up a bunch of posts!!!

catch 22.

First, you'll get a bunch of attacks on "the messenger" instead of the message, then you'll get a bunch of responses indicating the blind spot people have. Eventually you might get some that actually respond to the point you made in the first place.

Heaven forbid that you might actually be a sincere poster, who has had a genuine response to the place and because of that response hasn't racked up a bunch of posts yet. That would just create too much of a cognitive dissonance for some people to handle.
:toast:

[pezcore64]

304. actually

actually i live in the south.
racism exists in the entire country, unfortunately racism isnt just a regional scurge.
I live in kentucky.
In my town, there are three places(streets, blocks) where only blacks live and the rest is almost purely white.
i hate to tell ya dude, but regardless of where ever you go, you are gonna find racist people becuase people are generally ignorant(that maybe the one thing ive confirmed from getting into politics).

but hey, its a two street too.
ive been called 'white boy' more than a few times while in black residential areas. i didnt particularly like it, cause i do have a name, but what can i do about it? racist come in all shapes and sizes and colours.
ive met racist black people.
ive met racist hispanics.
ive even met racist asians!

Im sorry you had to be awoken from whatever fantasy you had about other parts of our country, but racism is alive and well in ALL PARTS of it. so dont go slamming north easterners when the whole country should be slammed.

[Name removed]

209. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sleepystudent]

219. Who are you to say?

Who the hell are you to say what reality is for me? Or how I should view things or how I should interpret my experiences? How do you explain the migration of blacks back to the South? How do you explain all the blacks that never left-were they just slow and ignorant? Yeah, we miss being lynched because that's all southern whites do.

I haven't heard anything about yuor background or what makes you so cocksure in your dismissal of what I am saying-all I see is your little Eminem avatar-I guess he's a rapper but he makes you more comfortable when you're listening to rap.

[rumguy]

226. I'm saying you don't speak for everyone, only yourself

as do I

you still haven't dealt with my questions upstream on this thread

to bad

[slinkerwink]

229. I love it when white men tell us who to speak for, and how we should feel

on issues of racism and sexism :eyes:

[rumguy]

246. no one is telling you how to feel

I'm saying don't tell me what words I can and can't use

what is so damn hard to understand about that?

huh?

[alarcojon]

301. It's easy to understand

but your need to use certain words is harder for me to understand. Some on this thread, including myself, are simply suggesting that people think about the impact of some of their words on others who grew up in different circumstances.

What is so hard to understand about THAT?

[rumguy]

332. where have I used the words?

answer: I haven't

even during this whole debate I've captioned the word "bitch"

that outta tell ya something

[alarcojon]

334. I take your word for it

and I commend you for that. But you are defending other's right to use them quite passionately, are you not?

Please note: I also defend people's right to use divisive language. I just ask for some voluntary respect for the preferences of others.

[pezcore64]

319. lol

just like i love it when when other races say im a racist because im a white male.

i swear, you cant do anything in this country as a white male unless youre incrediably rich or are so PC that you dont even speak.

point and fact

white males r the most hated human being on the planet.
think i like dealing with that?
instant assumptions that since im a white male from kentucky that i simply must be racist or not wear shoes?
shit
we all deal with stereotypes.


but thats okay
i still love you since you were a Dean supporter like myself ;)

[sleepystudent]

329. I knew someone would drag out the "white males are the true victims" line

But I still can't believe it everytime I hear it. And that line "white males are the most hated human beings on the planet"? Are you serious? Where is the systemic discrimination against white men? Really. I want you to show me and tell me. And no one "can do anything can do in America unless they are incredibly rich"-well that's an exaggeration, but does that mean poor blacks are the truly free people in America. Would you like to trade places with an unemployed black woman in the projects? And in order for white men to be PC they can't even speak? Does that mean that every thought that a white man has is a racist thought so they have to shut up. Please.

Wait a minute, why in the hell am I responding to this. Your post is a joke. And not a very good or intelligent one.

[slinkerwink]

339. I don't buy the "white men are victims" crap because they are the

DOMINANT gender, and the DOMINANT race, and they have been the ones perpetuating racism, sexism, and homophobia.....they're no victims, because their gender opens them up to a lot of privileges that are still closed to women, and their race puts them on a "higher" level because they have more access to opportunities.

[alarcojon]

337. White men are the most hated???

what about middle eastern men? middle eastern women? poor third world people? poor people in general? you get the picture....

[rumguy]

284. whine whine whine whine

what makes you so cocksure?

[alarcojon]

307. Eminem lyrics

didn't want to bring this up, but:

"You f---gots keep egging me on/'Til I have you and knifepoint, then you beg me to stop"

"My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge/That'll stab you in the head whether you're a f-g or a les."

"Hate f-gs?" "The answer's yes."

[rumguy]

330. if you want a discussion about eminem we'll have to take this to a

different thread

[alarcojon]

336. I'd be happy to do so

where would be a good forum for it? the lounge?

actually, we can start a private message discussion of you prefer.

[rumguy]

338. here's an article

I think it's one of the best explanations/defenses of Eminem there is -

http://www.guerrillanews.com/media/doc679.html

It's long, but well thought out and fascinating.

[pezcore64]

314. wow

"I see is your little Eminem avatar-I guess he's a rapper but he makes you more comfortable when you're listening to rap."

whos the racist now dude?
damn.
hah

[sleepystudent]

325. Listen to the song "White America"

by Eminem and you will see what I am getting at. Even he acknowledges that he gets the mainstream radio play, the big sales, the mainstream mag spreads, the movies, etc. partially because of his race. It allows him to say things that black rappers are not allowed to say to a wide audience. And it is about the majority audience's comfort level that will not allow for a black rapper to say the things he says without consequence and definitely without wide airplay. His success is about a mixture of his talent and his race which makes mainstream audiences more accepting of him.

[rumguy]

331. yeah but for you ascribe that to me is perhaps...rascist

I personally don't think it is, but see...two can play this game...

[carolinayellowdog]

250. Here is another list

http://lewis.sppsr.ucla.edu/special/metroamerica/factsheets/LCMetroAm_DiscussPaper_3.pdf

The one posted earlier includes MSAs with fewer than 3% African Americans or 20,000. Here is the list as revised to include only those with significant black populations:

Most segregated
1. Detroit
2. Gary, IN
3. Milwaukee
4. New York
5. Newark
6. Chicago
7. Cleveland
8. Buffalo
9. Flint
10. Cincinnati

Least segregated
1. Jacksonville, NC
2. Lawrence, KS
3. Fort Walton Beach, FL
4. Enid, OK
5. Lawton, OK
6. Fayetteville, NC
7. Merced, CA
8. Greenville, NC
9. Bloomington, IN
10. Dover, DE

Coastal plain NC shows up amazingly well here.

[rumguy]

265. the rust belt is heavily segregated, it's slow growing

there's still less racial tension there than in the south, generally speaking...

I know there are exceptions to the rule...

but that is my opinion...

and I think many share it

[pnb]

305. On what do you base this opinion...

...of yours that there is more racial tension in the south? You basically just keep saying it is so and then acting as if that's all that is necessary.

Many mare share it but so what? Most of those people will most likely have never spent time in the south either.

I can't speak for all areas of the south but I can definitely tell you that there is more racial tension in and around NYC and Boston than there is in and around Atlanta...which is even more amazing given the fact that people in the south coexist with other races more often because of the less segregation.

You can hold on to your stereotypes as much as you want...that won't make them true though.

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

223. The what vote? OK we could sure use the Nazi vote. Wanna join us?

[rumguy]

240. This thread is bringing them all in

it's like flypaper

yeah repukes are SO open-minded, they aren't racist or homophobic!!!

it's that darn liberal plantation mentality! that's the culprit...

not vitrol like this poster just spewed.

See, this is why WE ALWAYS win this argument....

[rumguy]

253. Hey slink, wanna defend this to?

[Screaming Lord Byron]

255. Fuckwit whitey.

Oops, better watch my racial comments.

[EV1Ltimm]

256. hur hur hur hee-yuck

[edzontar]

179. I bascially object to any and all language policing...

The very fact that people do not agree on the precise meaning or character of some of these words demonstrates that language--while powerful--is also not "fixed" in its meanings.

Any elementary course in semiotics, say. will make that clear to any and all of you.

Although I accept the principle that people should be addressed with respect--inlcuding respect as to their wishes--I resist the idea of placing any one of you or anyone else in the position of language acceptability arbiter for myself or anyone else.

I should also mention that I am beginning to get sick of this whole topic.

I also knew 30 years ago that "Brown Sugar" was a song about a rapist slaver--and I still like the song and the album anyway and like the song "Bitch" on that same album, and if you have a problem with that, that's fine...for YOU, but please.....they're MY ears....thank you, and at the age of 50, I am quite old enough to decide for my self.

[bigbillhaywood]

185. The South

I slam the South because I lived there for many years and saw the bigotry, ignorance and right-wing religious bullshit first hand. And believe it or ot, many blacks down South are also guilty of right-wing religious bullshit. Your point about the South having a large black population is well taken, however, blacks are still a minority down there, and due to our anti-democratic Electoral College system, if you win the white vote, you win the state. That is why it's so easy for many people to write-off the South.

Eliminating racism will require large structural changes to both our political and economic system (eliminating the Electoral College would be a good start)-- changes that I doubt the vast majority of Democratic politicians would be willing to make. It's up to rank-and-file progressives to organize economically, socially and politically to force the change.

MLK didn't wait on Jack Kennedy to pass the Civil RIghts Act, he (and many other lesser-known people) built a movement which forced the powers-that-be to respond. The unions didn't wait on FDR to pass New Deal legislation, they forced it through bloody strikes. Had they not, we wouln't have min wage, overtime, social security or labor law today.

Voting Democrat may be necessary to stop the Republican onslaught, but it is purely defensive. It will not move us forward, only keep us from sliding backward too far. If we want to move forward on any issue (including racism), we must look past the polls and take action.

[carolinayellowdog]

207. Implicit, unconscious racism in the anti-South threads

Hey,

I agree with you on this issue but understand Carolina's objection. The steady refrain of "I'd prefer it if we could expel the South from the Union" is *explicitly and consciously* hostile to Southern whites. But what does it say about such posters' states of mind that IT DOES NOT EVEN OCCUR TO THEM that they are thereby advocating expulsion of most of the African American population and an even larger share of African American office holders?

FWIW I'm white but live in a black majority county and come from an interracial family (father's second marriage was to a black woman and I have 7 black step- and half-siblings.) When the anti-South rhetoric starts heating up and I feel that *my people* are being insulted, the unconscious and implicit racism of such remarks is very keenly felt. I will grant that it is neither conscious nor explicit on the part of those making such attacks on Southerners in general. It has to do with denial, pretending that national problems are only because of THEM and our hands are clean.

BTW the most segregated metro areas in the US are in the Great Lakes area, the least being in California and the South.

CYD

[SeekerofTruth]

212. Progressives aren't as progessive as they'd like to believe

People only hear their half of the story. You will get flamed for stating some obvious points.

Racism is still abundant in this country. Look at Christopher Dodd supporting Robert KKK Byrd.

"There is a white world and a black world. White people can choose to only live in their world. Black people live in their world but they also have no choice and must also live in the White world." This statement was told to me from a very dear friend of mine, hopefully it helps people listen, grow, and understand.

[bigbillhaywood]

245. Unfortunately Byrd is good on lots of other issues...

Including labor and foreign policy. He consistently receives a 100% rating from my union on these issues. His racist past is unfortunate. I can only hope that it really is part of his past, but I could be wrong.

[xultar]

220. I'D LIKE TO TALK TO YOU, SEND ME A PRIVATE MESSAGE WHEN

YOU CAN...

[Selwynn]

244. A complete and total rebuttal. I totally reject most of your examples.

First of all, I challenge the attitude which I perceived, which was that you are somehow the supreme "arbiter" of what is racism and where there is prejudice. We should all - including me and including you - remember that no one is immune from the possibility of racial insensitivity.

Second of all, thank you for giving specific examples. I was about to through a fit because I'm so sick and tired of people making sweeping generalizations about "DU" with absolutely ZERO support. However, I feel like your examples are a pretty mixed bag. Some examples seem to have a shade or possible truth, but many don't. Some examples:

1. But the term "Uncle Tom" has been thrown around in regards to Powell and Rice.
So what? If you're problem is with the specific term, and not the sentiment, then ok - what term would you prefer we use? However, saying that Powell and Rice are capitulating to white "masters" and not effectively representing their culture and history has NOTHING to do with racism. It is an opinion, based on observations that have nothing to do with thinking that the "black race" is inferior to other races.

2. Al Sharpton - "But when he challenged Howard Dean, the claws came out for him especially from the white liberal side and his message was discarded"

First of all, you have no idea whether it was "especially" from the white liberal side here at DU. You have no idea. You don't "know" what the demographics or DU are, and even if you did, you don't "know" the race or gender of the people posting on that subject.

Second of all, I think it is just as reasonable to assume that not racism, but intense loyalty to Howard Dean was the motivation for becoming critical of Sharpton when he began to atack him. How many Duer's supported Sharpton as their candidate? Well, its not clear, but old polls from back then indicated not many - it was a clark/dean forum. A huge, huge number of people supported Howard Dean here. I don't care if some pastey white man was criticizing Dean, people here would have reacted negatively to it (and boy, they did!) Trying to play the "race" card on this issue, seems to really ignore a lot of evidence that criticism was pretty evenly distribute toward ANYONE who started to criticize Dena.

3. There was a "Brown Sugar" thread about Condi Rice on here making fun of her basically for her race-notwithstanding the fact that "Brown Sugar" is a song from the point of view of a slave master discussing his enjoyment of raping black slave women.

I never saw this thread. I would appreciate a link to it so I can review it for myself. Are you implying that the poster of this thread had conscious awareness of the origins of "Brown Sugar?" Not only that, but this is so far, the first example you've given that may - may - actually demonstrate racial insensitivity. That is not exactly enough to make the sweeping generalization of "racism at DU." That's ridiculous based on this alone. There are thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of DU members. So let's keep looking at the other examples.

4. The discussion of the Air America radio station taking over a historically black radio section: the complaints of blacks were completely dismissed with the attitude that "well, they shouldn't complain, we had the money, and anyway, we all have the same concerns, so they can just listen to us" Well, no, actually, the concerns are not the same.

I saw this thread. Air America had been on the air less than a week. People, like me, who have been longing for honest-to-god nationally syndicated liberal radio, are not really ready to respond non-defensively to criticism of the radio station! I don't care if it was Japanese Americans suggestion that Air America should go to Japanese centric programming - I wouldn't care. It's not racism to be defensive about criticism of something that you personally really enjoy.

When people were saying "our concerns are the same" they weren't saying "the concerns of the white race and the black race are the same" - that's not what was being thought. What was being thought was, "all DEMOCRATS should be united on the SAME issues, namely removing this tyranny of an administration from office." This is another example of "wanting to see racism." And I think that's a shame.

5. There was a thread lamenting the fact that black people have not risen up to support the gay marriage struggle and black people were referred to as "them" as in "Well, they will never help us" -again, this dismissive, essentialist, reductive thinking.

Give me a break. I am not a black person. Therefore, it is not necessarily racism but rather the constraints of language when I refer to someone else who is not something I am as "them." If I want talk about the Japanese Community, I might say "the believe this" - not because I am speaking down to THEM, but because I am not one of THEM. I would also call Municipal workers, "them" or say "they" when speaking. Why? Because I AM NOT A MUNICIPAL WORKER. I think its a shame that the black community has not taken a more prominent role in the cause of gay rights and equality. I think its a shame the white community has not risen up in support as well. It has nothing to do with "racism" to TALK about race issues. There is NOTHING wrong or racist about that. In fact, the only thing that promotes racism is people trying to TERRORIZE others with GUILT for even bringing up a question that includes race. Like somehow because I am white I must be terrified to ever bring up a racial issue, for fear to being burned at the public steak as a racist.

6.The dismissal of the South on this site. The South has the largest black population in the country and it is growing as blacks tire of the racism in the Northeast and the West and return home. The most segregated communities in America are almost all in the Northeast and Rust Belt. So if you angrily write off the South, you are writing off the black population as well.

Virtually every thread I have ever seen that was critical of the South was bring critical of southern WHITE MEN. The largest debate on this issue had to do with whether or not Democrats should try to pander to or go after the souther, white, male, confederate flag waving, vote. That was the question. To try to make that some sort of stealth issue of black racism is frankly, disgusting.

Should we all do our very best to be alert and on guard against racial insensitivity? Yes. Absolutely! But do I need a lecture from you about the rampant racism on this site? Not in the slightest. AT least, not without better examples than that.

Cheers,
Sel

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

274. excellent post

Well articulated. I would also like to echo your sentiment: In fact, the only thing that promotes racism is people trying to TERRORIZE others with GUILT for even bringing up a question that includes race. Like somehow because I am white I must be terrified to ever bring up a racial issue, for fear to being burned at the public steak as a racist.

[Selwynn]

299. I should clarify that last comment....

....

"In fact, the only thing that promotes racism is people trying to TERRORIZE others with GUILT for even bringing up a question that includes race."

I meant, in this context of DU. I was not trying to say that there are no legtimate issues of racism anywhere in society. I should have said "one of the biggest things that promotes any racism here at DU is.." rather than saying "the only thing that promotes racism is..."

[sleepystudent]

279. Ok, some good points...I will try to respond...

I challenge the attitude which I perceived, which was that you are somehow the supreme "arbiter" of what is racism and where there is prejudice. We should all - including me and including you - remember that no one is immune from the possibility of racial insensitivity.

I did not mean to imply that I am the sole arbiter of what is racism and what is not-like I have said before, I should not have used the term racism-I should have used something milder. And of course I know that we are all capable of racial insensitivity-I am checking myself on that and I feel that posters on here should too.

So what? If you're problem is with the specific term, and not the sentiment, then ok - what term would you prefer we use? However, saying that Powell and Rice are capitulating to white "masters" and not effectively representing their culture and history has NOTHING to do with racism. It is an opinion, based on observations that have nothing to do with thinking that the "black race" is inferior to other races.

My prob is with the sentiment-again, that black people better act a certain way or they are not "black". It is a reference to slavery, to American slavery, and as such, is racially based. You would not call a white person under Bush's thumb an Uncle Tom. There is also the idea that black people are a group or as representatives of a group, white people are allowed to be seen as individuals and what they do does not refelct back on anyone but themselves.

The Brown Sugar thing-Condi Rice is awful, there are so many things to trash her for, why use her race as a way in?

First of all, you have no idea whether it was "especially" from the white liberal side here at DU. You have no idea. You don't "know" what the demographics or DU are, and even if you did, you don't "know" the race or gender of the people posting on that subject.

Well, I can extrapolate from the demographics of Dean supporters, which Dean's staff themselves and the media brought up that yeah, most of the people that would take their time to log on and post about this are white, You're right I don't know down to the last person, but I doubt all the black posters piled on in one thread.

I saw this thread. Air America had been on the air less than a week. People, like me, who have been longing for honest-to-god nationally syndicated liberal radio, are not really ready to respond non-defensively to criticism of the radio station! I don't care if it was Japanese Americans suggestion that Air America should go to Japanese centric programming - I wouldn't care. It's not racism to be defensive about criticism of something that you personally really enjoy.

When people were saying "our concerns are the same" they weren't saying "the concerns of the white race and the black race are the same" - that's not what was being thought. What was being thought was, "all DEMOCRATS should be united on the SAME issues, namely removing this tyranny of an administration from office." This is another example of "wanting to see racism." And I think that's a shame.

Well, you should be ready to respond to criticism calmly ASAP-you knew it would be coming and not only from friendly bastions like DU. And since they tok over a black community station , of course race would enter into the discussion. Also, the Democratic Party claims to be a big tent, so even this year, there is not just one issue-that can be seen every day on DU. I am sure that most Dems are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Bush, I know I am, but what about when Kerry gets into office? Democrats have never been united on all the same issues, that's obvious.

As for the "them"-it goes back to the "black people are that group over there" they are not individuals. It bothers me and I have heard other black people complain about being referred to in that way.

Virtually every thread I have ever seen that was critical of the South was bring critical of southern WHITE MEN.

And isn't that sort of essentialist and reductive in its own way? Prejudiced maybe? Are all Southern white men to be criticized for where they happened to be born? The whole " the South takes money, they are so fundamentalist, they are so slow, lazy, stupid, etc."...well they say the same crap about "Black welfare queens" Very little difference.

But do I need a lecture from you about the rampant racism

Sorry, I'm not lecturing you. I'm just telling you what bothers me. If you think you're being talked down to, I don't know what to do about that.

[rumguy]

287. Florida 2000

will never be forgotten

[Selwynn]

317. Continuing the debate....

Thanks for your thoughtful response! Let's let our discussion set a shining example for mature and sophisticated debate. :)

My prob is with the sentiment-again, that black people better act a certain way or they are not "black". It is a reference to slavery, to American slavery, and as such, is racially based. You would not call a white person under Bush's thumb an Uncle Tom. There is also the idea that black people are a group or as representatives of a group, white people are allowed to be seen as individuals and what they do does not reflect back on anyone but themselves.

I disagree that this is the intended sentiment at all. I don't think the sentiment is exclusively about "black." I believe the sentiment is that no member of any race should willingly pacify or subjugate themselves to the whims or wishes of another race. A lot of people feel that Rice and Powell have done that by knowing that number one reason for their hiring were not their qualifications but their skin color, and accepting the positions on those terms anyway.

Now we can certainly disagree about whether or not that was the true motives of the administration. But it does not necessarily correlate to racism just for having the debate.

The Brown Sugar thing-Condi Rice is awful, there are so many things to trash her for, why use her race as a way in?

As I admitted, I don't know much about this one. I asked for a link to the thread so I could see for myself, but I understand that you may not remember what it was or it may have been from a long time ago, etc. Still though, let's hypothetically assume that this thread really did include some racially insensitive things. Great, so there's one example. One example is hardly a compelling case for excessive and rampant racism throughout DU. Not only that but I'm skeptical that the full context of the phrase was even known to some people - it certainly was not to me.

Well, you should be ready to respond to criticism calmly ASAP-you knew it would be coming and not only from friendly bastions like DU. And since they took over a black community station , of course race would enter into the discussion. Also, the Democratic Party claims to be a big tent, so even this year, there is not just one issue-that can be seen every day on DU. I am sure that most Dems are foaming at the mouth to get rid of Bush, I know I am, but what about when Kerry gets into office? Democrats have never been united on all the same issues, that's obvious.

I believe that most democrats of all races colors and creeds are more united this election year that almost ever before. The percentage of people that claim that their number one concern is getting "anybody but bush" election is very large. And I think that is what many people feel when talking about "our issues are your issues and your issues are mine, etc." Even if you disagree with that, its a damn far stretch to start calling it "racism."

As far as responding to criticism calmly ASPA - that sounds great. Tell me, have you always responded to other people calmly throughout your entire life? If so, I'm going to start a new church and worship you as my God. :) But we know that's not the case. People respond defensively sometimes. I do. That's life. That has nothing to do with racism. I'm curious when you say "they" - what do you mean by "they?" I find your use of "they" insensitive to white people. :) Ok, not really but you can see how frequently "they" gets used and is not "racial" in nature.

It's not that all of your arguments are incorrect in my opinion - but your response only goes even further to show how the issues in this instance really have little or nothing to do with "racism."

As for the "them"-it goes back to the "black people are that group over there" they are not individuals. It bothers me and I have heard other black people complain about being referred to in that way.

No, what it goes back to is the limits of the English language. You are right that referring to "them" can be a way of referring in racial or insensitive and objectifying ways to another group of people. But there are many times when you are referring to a person or a group of people to which you do not belong and you are trying to compare and contrast something, you will find it very hard not to use "them" or "they."

I want you to know that I agree with you that "them" can be used racially as a way of referring to someone or something "less than" the person speaking. But it is dreadfully wrong to assume that any time you refer to person as "he or she" - or a group of people as "they or them" - it is obviously racist, without exception. That's just wrongheaded. I can say, "feminist female activists support... blah blah blah. Next sentence: THEY believe ...blah blah blah." In saying "they" in this case, there is no way you should rightfully accuse me of sexism for saying "they" - I am simply acknowledging the fact that since I am not a female I cannot really say "we" in this context, without giving a false impression that I am a female. There is nothing discriminating about the language, but it is one of the limits of language.

Can it create confusion? Can it lead to miscommunication? Sure sometimes. But it is not an absolute indicated or "racism" in all cases, and I don't believe it was in the case you give.

I wrote: "Virtually every thread I have ever seen that was critical of the South was bring critical of southern WHITE MEN."

You responded: And isn't that sort of essentialist and reductive in its own way? Prejudiced maybe? Are all Southern white men to be criticized for where they happened to be born? The whole " the South takes money, they are so fundamentalist, they are so slow, lazy, stupid, etc."...well they say the same crap about "Black welfare queens" Very little difference.

No. Unless you believe it is never possible to make general observations of clear and obvious trends among groups of people. There is a clear and pervasive pattern of certain behavior, beliefs and attributes among southern whites. All you have to do is look at voting records, history, or anything else to see a clear pattern Does that mean it is true for all white people living in the south? Nope. Does that mean we can casually jump to all kinds of general conclusions because of this pattern? No. But to not be honest and aware of clear trends in the south, is nothing more then intelligent trend awareness. It is not necessarily racism.

What's more even if it is, its certainly not the kind of racism you were trying to make a case for.

I appreciate your concern, and I am not trying to mock it. But unfortunately, I think the only way you can make a case for obvious, pervasive racism on DU is: you have to really "want" it.

Cheers,
Sel

[rumguy]

280. beautifully put

excellent, cheers!

[Name removed]

260. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goclark]

267. As An African American Women

I appreciated your post and valued your perspective. We, as African Americans, are usually sensitive to remarks about anyone that shares our roots, even Condi and Colin.

I have only been at DU for a few months. I see it as my mission to always share my thoughts. not just on the post that,in my opinion, may need to see things from an African American prospective, but other issues as well.


Because Condi and Colin are so disappointing to a huge majority of African Americans and others, DU does come down hard on them. This is a political forum with people expressing their rage at this administration. I would say, DU treats them not as Blacks but as Whites. DU gives them as much "hate status" as Bush and his other thug buddies. To me , Condi and Colin have made themselves "fair game" on a political forum.

Don't leave, your views are extremely important!!! I do believe that the posters here at DU care more about our people than Bush! They are well read, political activist and extremely articulate.

Perhaps, because they usually take a liberal view we would like to think that they are perfect. This is not a "politically correct" forum,it is well named UNDERGROUND. No one is perfect. But, I find more of a comfort zone at DU and I will continue to share my opinions.

ps/ I don't like Condi and would not like her if she turned White tomorrow. Yes, she is well educated, all the more reason why I hold her to a higher standard. She needs to raise my people up not tear them down.

[xultar]

269. I agree, another fellow Sistah...hey contact me via PM please

[G_j]

268. new thread started

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1371805

[bigbillhaywood]

271. My view on the South...Bring back Reconstruction!

Finish the job. Instead of 40 acres and a mule, it can be a single-family home, apartment or rowhouse and 5 grand. If the white Southerners disagree, wait till the next Southern Baptist convention, resurrect Sherman and have him raze it. Remember when "Radical Republican" was a good thing?

[Bridget Burke]

273. Over on the Dr. Rice Testimony threads....

Some strong-stomached folk have been monitoring responses to the questioning on Freerepublic.

Apparently, the fine folks over there have pointed out that questions asked by the Democrats are "racist". Glad they're so concerned with the niceties!

[sleepystudent]

286. random question...

why do people on here even go to Free Republic? What of value do people hope to gain from going over there? (I've never been there) It seems like looking at Internet porn or nasty pics from a celebrity car crash.

[rumguy]

288. Florida 2000

will never be forgotten

[sangh0]

296. Know thine enemy

How do expect to prepare for their attacks if you don't even know what their positions are?

[Bridget Burke]

312. Because it helps predict the next attack.

Often, somebody pops up here repeating the same views (almost word for word, at times) posted on that pustulent boil on the internet.

For example, one might expect the "Democrats are racist because they criticize Rice / Powell" meme to pop up here. Of course, it might not happen.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

302. A few points:

1.) YOu don't know the race of the individual making the remarks in some instances. Many of the posters that HAVE referred to Condi and Colin as "Uncle Anything" are black.

2.) Commenting on a comic authored by an African American man isn't necessarily racist.

3. I agree there are often subtle examples of racism and bigotry on DU. If you think a post is racist or bigoted, please hit the alert and explain your reasoning..the admin and mods are sensitive to well reasoned alerts.

[absyntheNsugar]

316. Flamebait or not, SS has a good point

But I did wonder what he meant by Airamerica taking over a black segment - were the radio stations previously owned by black-owned corporations (I thought corporate radio already bought those back in the 1970's)

Not disagreeing, just unclear thats all

[Quetzal]

318. Perhaps you should have chosen different words for your post

but at least we are talking about it.

[Selwynn]

327. Too long? Sleepystudent and I were in the middle of a nice discussion!

[Xipe Totec]

328. OK, I'm prejudiced. I admit it

Colin Powell is black so I naturally assumed he was honest
based on no other information. I forgot to take into account
that he was also a republican. His presentation before the UN
a year ago on WMD made me want to vomit.

As for Condi, suffice it to say that race is her ONLY
redeeming quality.

I kept hoping and praying that one day Colin Powell would wake
up and realize he was sleeping with the enemy. He never did.

He broke my heart and I wont forgive him.

[sleepystudent]

333. Huh?...

You wrote: As for Condi, suffice it to say that race is her ONLY
redeeming quality.

That makes no sense. What makes her being black an inherently good trait. What does that mean to you exactly? What makes her being black a "redeeming quality"? I think that this is a corollary of the idea that all blacks will automatically support the gay marriage struggle because all black people are inherently good and are thinking about everyone's civil rights all the time and if blacks aren't like that, they will get shit from other groups because they are not like everyone assumed to be. It also again sees blacks as an amorphous mass and not as individuals with nuances and different viewpoints. Which is what I think your statement that I quoted gets at- the idea that because she is black, she is also "-". It doesn't work like that.

[Xipe Totec]

340. I meant it literally

You are correct. I prejudged her based on her race. I made assumptions about her as an individual based on her external appearance despite her affiliation with evil. I gave her the benefit of the doubt because I identified with her based solely on her race and assumed she would feel as I feel.

I will not make that mistake again.