Franken doesn't buy into LIHOP

[soleft]

Called talking about put options of American Airlines stock, says he'll have staffers look into, sound like it's all news to him, but generally he gives no credence to conspiracy theories.

[w13rd0]

1. Several times...

...during Condi's testimony, she said that "these changes could not have been made without a catastrophic, Pearl Harbor like, event precipitating them." These reps and pundits that refuse to even consider the possibility are living in denial.

[soleft]

3. I know, she basically gave a PNAC Primer in her opening statement

They're talking about the put options again - Kinsley debunking it now.

[robbedvoter]

13. Franken was OK. Kinsley was vomit inducing.

I missed Fineman.

[OKNancy]

2. good

n/t

[gulfcoastliberal]

4. It's Annoying

How he just writes off any possibility of foreknowledge of the attacks as a conspiracy theory. Maybe he just can't say that stuff out loud for fear of losing cred.

[Caution]

5. it IS a conspiracy theory

LIHOP is a conspiracy theory. It may (or may NOT be correct) but it certainly is just a theory about a conspiracy.

[redqueen]

37. Sure, technically you're right

However, this ignores the larger scam. The scam is that TPTB just call anything really horrible that they don't want to even give any credence to a "Conspiracy Theory" and that enables most people to just say to themselves 'oh well mr so-and-so says it's just CT so I can ignore that since it's all just nonsense'.

The thing is, though, that it's not all nonsense. How many people do you know that know what Operation Northwoods was?

The fact that TPTB can safely hide the most nefarious of deeds behind such a weak smokescreen to this very day, despite MK ULTRA, despite Northwoods, despite all evidence to support the 'idiots' who have the courage to ask these tough questions (thanks Al, ya bastard!), is a tragedy and should be a wake up call to all of us who DO see how often and blatantly we're lied to.

[Caution]

47. While I agree with you that yes

some of the theories about conspiracies turn out to be correct, the larger community of "theorists" start to buy into every little thing that comes out and start seeing conspiracies everywhere. It's a similar affect to the "jaded cop" After 10 years, many cops become jaded and start seeing criminals everywhere.

The amount of crackpot BS conspiracy theories far outweigh the onces that pan out, so people with less suspicious minds start discounting all of them.

I personally fall on this side of the fence. I don't buy into LIHOP or MIHOP, I don't believe in UFOs, I don't believe that there are tight-knit cabals running everything (The illuminati, Skull & Bones, the Masons, etc etc). I do believe that the government can occasionally do underhanded things and I also believe that they often draw up plans for very underhanded things.

For Al Franken to say "I don't believe in LIHOP" does not make him a part of the cabal or a part of the problem, it makes him a skeptic.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. Of course he doesn't. He's a self-described "DLC Democrat."

What's more, he's Stuart Smiley.

The American Left can do better than this under-informed, middle of the road comic.

Mike Malloy.

[gulfcoastliberal]

18. I've Gotta Agree

I really liked Frankens "Liars" book, but as a radio show host, we need a strong left-winger who sticks to his guns. Limbaugh and Hannity don't have flaming liberal guests on their show - Franken invites all these die-hard right-wingers on for polite conversation. We need a firebrand who can ram our message into the minds of certain people tuning in who are easily influenced by what they hear other people say - but only if it's a simple, easy-to-digest idea. We need someone to bring the fight to these people. We need to get the LIHOP theory out there so people demand better answers than the total whitewash called the 9/11 commission. Ask the hard questions about Ashkkkroft suddenly flying charter the summer of 2001 and the way they kept Bunnypants out of DC for months. Ask the hard questions about the way the administration deliberately ignored the warnings coming in that summer. Ask the hard questions about the put options and NORAD procedures. Ask the hard questions about Flight 77 getting shot down right after the passengers may have taken back the plane. Ask the hard questions about no-bid contracts and why the Iraqi's are so desperately unemployed they find violence the best way to protest the occupation. Ask the fucking questions, and ask them loud! Remember the way the thugs dug up every trivial detail about Clintons life - we need to do this against the Bush - and the pravda press. Accuse the media conglomerates of right-wing bias! It's so obvious! Look at the entire Letterman flap! It's painfully obvious! We need to turn the fucking tables on these fascists before it is too late! Polite debate and ignoring reality isn't gonna get us anywhere, people. Sorry.

Rant over. Thank you.

[mot78]

27. This thread is proof of people accusing non-LIHOP people of being DINOs

Fraken doesn't believe in LIHOP/MIHOP and neither do I. I'm open to the idea of it taking place (I can't accept MIHOP in any way) but it seems unlikely. I just think * is covering up 9/11 because he spent most of his first 9 months in office asleep at the wheel and in Crawford. And also because some of his Saudi royal friends knew about 9/11 and he wants to protect them from scrutiny.

[gulfcoastliberal]

41. I Haven't Called Anyone a DINO

Although perhaps those who make thousands of posts yet don't contribute a buck to the site might be seen as a DURINO. If we were so "asleep at the wheel" why did top political and military brass fly chartered all that summer? What did they know about a threat to commercial flights? Under Clinton, as Clarke said, when they knew something big was coming they went into HIGH ALERT and MET DAILY and told all agencies to be on HIGH ALERT. They knew something big was coming and they did NOTHING - except keep it a SECRET. And yes, the Saudi Bin-Laden connection needs to be dragged by its filthy roots into the light for all to see and question.

[crissy71]

7. wtf does lihop stand for?

[sendero]

8. LIHOP

... pronounced like the International House Of Pancakes but with an L first.

Let
It
Happen
On
Purpose

I for one believe in LIHOP.

[mot78]

33. Liberal International House Of Pancakes

LOL!!!

[Killarney]

9. I don't buy into LIHOP either, so I don't blame Franken.

Of course, anything's possible but I just don't buy it right now.

I think the administration is just incompetent.

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Someone knew the plan (other than the 19 hijackers),so

why wouldn't they try to make a few bucks?

It has NOTHING TO DO WITH LIHOP.

However, if there is no conspiracy, tracing the option buyers would be one of the more obvious trails to follow....

[GreenArrow]

16. LIHOP and incompetence

are not mutually exclusive.

[rman]

54. how about "deliberate incompetence".

-

[quinnox]

10. Uh oh, now his liberal credentials will be revoked

by a few members on DU.

[soleft]

12. There are a lot of liberals who don't subscribe to LIHOP, David Corn 4 1

[underpants]

14. Me too + he woud be branded a nutcase

IF he wants to maintain anything near credibility.

[Minstrel Boy]

24. About David Corn and 9/11:

Corn says, "to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes... is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme." http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=12536

Wrap your head around what he's saying here: 9/11 was "far beyond the skill level of US intelligence," and yet it wasn't beyond the skill level of a fundamentalist with bad kidneys in an Afghan cave.

Corn also says:

"I recall interviewing one former CIA official who helped manage a division that ran the sort of actions listed above, and I asked him whether the CIA had considered "permanently neutralizing" a former CIA man who had revealed operations and the identities of CIA officers. Kill an American citizen? he replied, as if I were crazy to ask. No, no, he added, we could never do that. Yes, in the spy-world some things were beyond the pale. And, he explained, it would be far too perilous, for getting caught in that type of nasty business could threaten your career."

Corn, here, takes a former CIA official at his word that No, heaven forfend, we would never kill an American citizen. He applies this statement to his case against 9/11 complicity: since the CIA would never kill an American citizen, how much less thousands?

Does the United States government draw the line at committing murder of Americans, regardless of its strategic objectives? Corn says yes. How tenable is his case?

[x-g.o.p.er]

15. Most people don't...

myself included.

:shrug:

[BradCKY]

17. I don't buy into it

I'm glad he's not losing focus with these kind of conspiracy theories.

[Zinfandel]

19. Franken BORING...so are you ready to listen everyday to Franken for

three hours for the next year or two to keep his ratings high?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

22. i enjoy his show.

everyone has their opinion.

[absyntheNsugar]

20. I don't blame him - LIHOP is a hard pill to swallow

Tell me - if you were given the choice of the red pill or the blue pill which would you take? I'll take the red pill, but its hard to blame anyone for taking the blue one...

[redqueen]

30. If they have children

I sure as heck do blame them.

[absyntheNsugar]

39. I disagree...how do you explain that to your children?

I, for one, am dreading the day I have to - and I know I will. I'm still glad I took the red pill but I'm not sure everyone can live with that knowlege.

Especially when more and more dots keep pointing towards a MIHOP kind of scenario...

[redqueen]

42. Not sure I understand your question

My point was that if one has children, one has a duty to open one's eyes for the sake of those children. It's one thing to be out for yourself and say "I don't care what nasty business is being done" because that choice affects you and you can just end it there. If one has children, then even if one has no empathy for the other people suffering under the criminal empire, at least they should have empathy for what kind of mess they're ignoring, leaving their children to deal with it later.

[IkeWarnedUs]

21. Chris Mathews seems to be catching on to LIHOP though

When British MP Michael Meecher wrote the Guaridan article, "This War on Terrorism is Bogus" (link below) where he lays out the LIHOP argument I sent it to a number of people, including some reporters who had written about PNAC. The majority who responded said they couldn't accept that the Bush administration knew we were going to be attacked. Even Jay Bookman of the Atlanta Journal Constitution who first alerted many of us to PNAC's agenda sent this response:

"Well, I still can't buy his suggestion that we consciously allowed 9/11 to happen. I think that what we can PROVE about this administration is damning enough without having to dip into that kind of speculation"

That's when I really started to understand how hard it is for many people to wrap their heads around the terrifying thought that their government would sacrifice American lives to achieve a political agenda.

So, Al is still not there yet. Chris Matthews seems to be getting there at least. Al will get there sooner or later.


This war on terrorism is bogus
by Michael Meecher, British Parliament Environment Minister
Published in The Guardian Newspaper (UK) September 6, 2003

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html)


The President's Real Goal in Iraq
By Jay Bookman The Atlanta Journal-Constitution 9/29/02

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/opinion/0902/29bookman.html

[redqueen]

31. Have these clowns never heard of Operation Northwoods?

:grr:

I want to shake these fools and scream "For the love of GOD, pull your head out before it's too late!"

[Senjutsu]

23. Neither do I...

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

And Shrub et al have stupidity in spades.

[newyawker99]

48. Hi Senjutsu!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Most people don't buy into LIHOP because they personally can't...

...imagine any U. S. head of state engaging in such activity.

Well, I say it's time to pull off the blinders and face facts. LIHOP has been a standard operating procedure for this country for quite a while going back to and including the Spanish American War.

Desert Storm I = Kuwaiti babies taken out of incubators

Vietnam War = the events in the Tonkin Gulf never took place

WWII = we had broken all of the Japanese codes prior to Pearl Harbor

WWI = the sinking of the Lusitania

Spanish-American War = the sinking of the USS Maine

I've done my research on all of these events...now it's your turn.

[TheRedMan]

28. You REALLY researched this?

Then one might think you would know that the sinking of the Lusitania did not drive the US into World War I (the boat was sunk 1915, the US entered the war in 1917). It wasn't even an American ship. If anything, the fact that the Lusitania contained military cargo was an embarrassment to the US. The Zimmerman telegram did far more to get us into that war.

Similarly, the relevance of the babies being removed from incubators in Desert Storm is questionable. That war began when Saddam invaded Kuwait, and was in a reasonable position to threaten Saudi Arabia.

I'll give you the Maine and the Gulf of Tonkin incident. These have been solidly demonstrated as fakes. Pearl Harbor has not, but I could be convinced.

[redqueen]

35. Instant headache

Oh well, at least it's almost 5:00 :grr:

re: your comment that "That war began when Saddam invaded Kuwait..."

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html">How PR Sold the War in the Persian Gulf

Excerpt:
"If and when a shooting war starts, reporters will begin to wonder why American soldiers are dying for oil-rich sheiks," warned Hal Steward, a retired army PR official. "The US military had better get cracking to come up with a public relations plan that will supply the answers the public can accept."

This is chapter 10 of this book: Toxic Sludge Is Good For You

[redqueen]

43. This is must read stuff, here n/t

[nonkultur]

46. WWI & WWII MIHOP's

I have heard that the Zimmerman Telegram might have been fake as well.

Pearl Harbour was a response to our Naval embargo on Japan.

[GiovanniC]

26. I Never Used to Believe in LIHOP

But now... it's becoming more and more likely in my opinion.

The stonewalling, the secrecy, the absolute aversion to finding out what really happened on that day... The inconsistencies, the lies, PNAC, and the the sheer DOLLARS that have been reaped by BFEE...

Would evil men kill thousands to steal billions? I'm beginning to think so.

[xxqqqzme]

29. would they???

in the blink of an eye!!

I have a major problem w/ nothing done (flying in the face of training, rules...however U want 2 tag it) once they KNEW all four of those planes were hijacked!!! Nothing - nothing - not-a-thing. That is the biggest kicker N2 LIHOP 4 me.

[redqueen]

32. LIHOP = Operation Northwoods redux, and this time it worked.

:grr:

[Mike Daniels]

34. Also said that anyone who believed Wellstone was murdered is an idiot

In response to a question about that topic at a speach he gave at GWU in DC Franklen said "every time I appear somewhere some idiot asks that question and you sir, are today's idiot."

[goforit]

36. It is a sad day when people don't connect the DOTS!!!

Keep working on it Franken....
It just might hit ya on the ass on the way out!!!

[redqueen]

38. I doubt it

He's had ... what ... 50 years to figure this $hit out?

Someone ought to call him and ask him if he's never heard of Northwoods, MK ULTRA, and see if he calls THEM an idiot too.

I bet he would. The moron. Can't upset the status quo, now, can we?

:grr:

[ComerPerro]

40. Even if he did believe in it, it is a hard thing to come out and say

Which, strangely enough, strengthens my belief in it.

Why did they LIHOP?

Because they knew they could get away with it.

Everyone suspects this at some level, even the most hardcore FReepers. Most people immediately dismiss the notion. And I am guessing that many right wingers would be cool with the idea of LIHOP, I honestly don't think they would care at all. They are that sick. But I am straying from the topic...

Mainly, BushCo knew they could get away with LIHOP because no one really can accuse them without sounding like a fanatic. There is no proof (except all the bizzare coincidencies, their secrecy, their refusal to investigate 9/11 properly, their desire to attack Iraq, their sudden jump in popularity by over 40 points, and their suddenly justifiable increases in spending on bullshit programs like star wars.

9/11 is the only thing making the administration seem halfway credible to some people. Without it, Bush would have been impeached by now.

And I am off topic again.

I promise, this paragraph will contain my point. Franken my believe in LIHOP, or he may not. But one thing is for sure: If you believe in LIHOP, its a helluva thing to have to come out and say.

[LunaC]

44. Some other tidbits he should look into....

I'm still waiting for a non-LIHOPer to give me a plausible explanation for the following sequence of events.


In May 2001 the U.S. State Department met with Iran, German and Italian officials to discuss Afghanistan. It was decided that the ruling Taliban would be toppled and a "broad-based government" would control the country so a gas pipeline could be built there.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/7969.pdf.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex20867.htm


Even as plans were being made to remove the Taliban rulers from power, Colin Powell announced a $43 million "gift" to Afghanistan.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-091701scheer.column
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-02-02.html


In July 2001, the private plot formulated in May for toppling the Taliban was divulged during the G8 summit in Genoa, Italy. Immediately after the conference, American, Russian, German and Pakistani officials secretly met in Berlin to finalize the strategy for military strikes against the Taliban, scheduled to begin before mid-October 2001

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,556254,00.html


In September 2001 the "catastrophic and catalyzing" modern-day Pearl Harbor envisioned years earlier by the PNAC came to pass when the WTC and Pentagon were attacked. The finger of blame was pointed at Osama bin Laden, a former CIA operative with ties to Afghanistan. Suddenly, the U.S. "gift" of $43 million to the Taliban in May was cast in a new light. Coincidentally, Pakistan had participated in the plan to attack Afghanistan and the chief of Pakistan's Inter Service Intelligence agency was later linked to a 911 hijacker after wiring him $100,00 just days before the WTC fell.

http://cryptome.org/rad.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=1454238160

In October 2001, with flags waving, crowds cheering, and anthems playing, the "War On Terror" and the hunt for Osama began when Afghanistan was attacked right on schedule of July's secret meeting

[redqueen]

45. Well done!

:yourock:

[PATRICK]

49. We have no proof

but the exact same reason we have disturbing questions left about the oddly coincidental behavior of the usual suspects and the pregnant state of affairs before during and after. It is turning out that no one will be blamed for anything. Even AlQaeda is getting fuzzy in the focus. At the very least it can be proved that the one track arrogance of the WH is the host of a number of calamities that are only allowed to further their agenda with no ounce of prevention. The mindset that everything else not only is of no consequence but only will serve to enable their real agenda can be so singleminded as to actually be LIHOP.

Lines had to be crossed aplenty just for that attitude. Also is the ultra private agenda and dealings of the top dogs. They are not worthy of any consideration of benefit of the doubt or attributions of character or patriotism whatever they think in their own minds. they proved that in the Coup of 2000 and I gave them no such graceful accommodation ever. They have been more consistent than the flu and Bush has governed as rigidly and evilly as he did in Texas and with as little concern to human welfare.

We are not even close to getting any real answers about that singular 911 event much less what the Saudis and Bushes were discussing, or why key players were acting or positioned as they were while the defenses were not so subtly disabled from everything from surveillance of flight schools to FAA directives. They are acting as if they have very damning things to hide and deserve even the craziest of suspicions.

Those crazy suspicions however are not helping uncover evidence though anymore than the Kennedy assassination cottage industry has.
This issue is not what you think about theories or personalities but accountability and the truth when it matters vitally. That is the wall that must be assaulted. Asking an soothing opinion that there is no ravenous monster on the other side of the wall just an ideological boob is worse than beside the point when people die. When many more are and will die.

[HEyHEY]

50. Oops I thought you said "IHOP"

[tom_paine]

51. Franken is wrong

I understand why he is reluctant to believe such monstrous allegations.

Believe them.

[Stephanie]

52. That's okay, Everyone needs to come to this realization for themselves.

You can't tell your sister to divorce her lying, alcholic husband. You casn only wait until she arrives at that decision on her own, and then support her all you can.

[Joanne98]

53. I've gone from LIHOP to MIHOP

I think the Saudis funded the terrorists with the Bushies knowledge. The Bushies ignored the threat, sabotaged the investigation, told NORAD to stand-down. I don't think they knew the buildings would fall down though. Which only enhanced their acting job.