Damn it all, anyway

[WilliamPitt]

I have finally weaned myself off the poo-throwing howler monkey forum, also known as 'General Discussion: Campaign 2004.' I peek in there once a day just to watch the poo fly, but my participation in there has diminished by about 98%. I have rediscovered the joys of regular General Discussion.

Until today. Condi Rice testifies. Someone spiked Chris Matthews' coffee with Tell-The-Damn-Truth serum, and he's got the 9/11 widows on Hardball in full force and fire. The 8/6/01 PDB, which we've known about for a long time now is now fully into the public debate.

The most popular conversations in GD with all this going on? Charges of racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. on DU. Important topics all, but damn, folks.

Damn.

[slinkerwink]

1. they are equally as important, and dismissing them only proves

charges of insensitivity here in DU.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Sorry. Racism, sexism, homophobia, INSENSITIVITY, etc.

Better?

[GOPisEvil]

4. They are important, but do you ever think about WHY TODAY?!?!

It wasn't to distract us from Rice's testimony was it?

[slinkerwink]

9. no, it's not because of rice's testimony today

any political events does not exclude discussion of those issues.

[AngryYoungMan]

"Equally as important"? Are you mad?

Insensitivity to issues of gender politics on a left wing message board are "equally as important" as the National Security Advisor's testimony concerning the August 6th briefing? What world are you living in?

[slinkerwink]

14. are you saying that women should shut the fuck up about sexism

just because the NSA testified today?

[AngryYoungMan]

20. I am not saying that at all.

I am not recommending that anyone shut up about anything. I just take exception to the assertion that those issues are "equally important." 3000 civilians died in three hours in my city and the person responsible was talking about it on television today. I believe that to be more important than incivility on a DU forum. Go ahead and discuss whatever you want to discuss; I'll even join in. But I can't agree that it's "equally important."

[WilliamPitt]

21. Thanks

Well stated.

[AngryYoungMan]

32. A compliment indeed, coming from you.

(a tip of the hat to Mr. Pitt)

[calimary]

74. Good to hear ya back, Will -

I can REALLY see your point. While the other subjects are worthy of discussion, we've got a tiger by the tail here NOW - in the aftermath of Contradicta's statements. I actually saw all the Tweety show with the 9/11 widows. I also saw another interview on CNN with yet another 9/11 woman (who lost her mom that day) - and it was FIVE FOR FIVE - they ALL noted that Dr. Smarter-than-Thou failed to apologize (gee, don't know why they wanna make such a big deal about that...) AND they wanted to know what else bush and friends were hiding. They ALL wanted that PDB released, entirely. They ALL had details about the many warnings that came in over that summer - profoundly more noteworthy than the three or four completely bland, vague, nothings Condi cited. They ALL agreed that the buck stops at the top - VIA Condi. And they still want answers.

This is a bigger and bigger deal. GOD we need to make some noise about this!!! PLEASE PEOPLE!!!

Note my sig line - TOLL FREE to your reps!!! Get 'em ON THIS!!!

Furthermore, I DO NOT see how she can say that August 6th PDB wasn't a warning when its very title was.

[slinkerwink]

22. that's your perspective, but whenever people tells someone of

a minority not to air their concerns about racism/homophobia/sexism in here, it only proves their concerns that it does exist here.

[hiphopnation]

28. where is anyone telling them not to

air thier concerns? you're making things up here.

[slinkerwink]

31. no, I'm not----I've been told this on the "bitch" threads

[hiphopnation]

40. Fine.

But I'm recognizing a tactic in some of your posting (which I'm sure NSMA will come and berate me on when you're done with me.)

It's that you bait people and distract them from the issue at hand, whatever it may be in any particular thread, and then when they try and call you to issue you lash out at them and call them sexist! It's ludicrous.

And NO I don't have any specific examples right now. Save this very thread which was immediately hijacked by you and turned into another thread about how much sexism there is here. Lawdy, it's kind of nutty. :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

44. Will Pitt mentioned sexism as one of the issues being discussed

in his post, so that's why I'm bringing it up as a valid issue to be discussed.

[matcom]

48. slinkerwink, you TALK a good game but WHAT IS THE REAL STORY???

you feelin' "bitchy"????

<02 Apr 2004|11:43pm>

http://www.livejournal.com/users/slackerwink/

this is getting REALLY old :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

53. in my view, "bitch" can be used as a verb or adjective, but not as

a sexist slur against a man or a woman. So I can say that I feel bitchy or that I was bitching about something.

[matcom]

62. YOU can?? REALLY??

i might argue (if i were that kind) that YOUR 'feeling bitchy' might be a sexist comment (IF i knew that YOU were a woman) and i might then be COMPELLED to make a sexist statement. :eyes:

it is ok for you (cause YOu are a WOMAN) but NOT for anyone else to use the phrase/term for ANY other reason

hellllllloooooooo hypocrite!

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

67. look...women can reclaim the word "bitch" and call themselves

that just like african-americans have reclaimed the "n" word, and like gays have reclaimed the "faggot" word in order to lessen the hatred of those words, but it does not exempt the person using those words as a slur against those minorities.

[matcom]

73. your right

except other women here have used the word BITCH and you have called them on it.

gee - suddenly i am feeling a little 'prickish'. but don't YOU ever use that term!

[slinkerwink]

75. because it's the propagation of sexist slurs

and women need to challenge their own sexism as much as men do. I used to use that word "bitch" and I was so ignorant of its sexist history, and when I found out, I decided not to use it anymore against men or women. I do have a certain amount of sexism in me, and I recognize that, but I'm willing to change that and to grow better as a person.

[matcom]

79. WHA??

YOU used to use it???

SHAME!!!!!!!!

so glad you have seen the error of 'your ways'!

and SO glad you are trying to FORCE 'your ways' on the REST of the population!!

you are doing a GREAT service to this WHOLE board by doing so. even if you DON'T practice what your preach!

:eyes:

[slinkerwink]

82. I'm not forcing my ways on the rest of the population....

:eyes: is it so wrong to speak up against what one perceives as sexism?

[matcom]

85. you may PERCEIVE it but you ENGAGE in it and THAT is ok?

you are quick on the 'post' trigger, yet you preach to the rest of us?

yes, it is wrong because there is evidence you don't believe it yourself!

great way to rack up post numbers though (i suppose)

[slinkerwink]

95. are you insinuating that I

might be a freeper? :wtf:

[matcom]

97. not at all

i am TELLING you that you are hypocritical as all HELL!!!!

your WAY too cute to be a freeper :)

[slinkerwink]

99. look at post 92

he also noticed the amount of sexism in here, and it's up to the minority to challenge what they perceive to be sexism, racism, or homophobia in here.

[matcom]

81. wait a minute!! HOW is 'faggot' a 'Male' term?

isn't that derogatory to ALL gay people????

now i am just confused :shrug:

[slinkerwink]

87. I'm talking about how gays, and when I say gays, I mean all gay people

and they use that word "faggot" to reclaim that word for themselves to lessen the hate of it.

[matcom]

93. so, let me get this straight

you tie up this board, FOR DAYS, because YOU decide to launch a 'crusade' against the word BITCH, WHICH YOU YOURSELF USE (in context) and then DEFEND YOUR USE of it by saying that you are female so it is OK FOR YOU TO USE IT (or connotations of it)???

you justify this by saying that because some black people use the "N" word twords each other that YOU OWN 'BITCH' because of your gender and THAT isn't SEXIST?????

lame

[slinkerwink]

98. *rolls eyes*

you didn't get what I was saying. I don't use it as a sexist slur against a man or WOMAN. OH, and it wasn't just me that aired my concerns about the word "bitch" and other posters did too.

[matcom]

100. you have been arguing for DAYS

that ANY use of that word is sexist by definition!! if we call a woman a bitch, its sexist.
if we say bitch-slap its sexist
if a woman is 'bitchy' its sexist (regardless of the fact that on YOUR site you used the same term to describe your mood)
in fact, 'bitchy' (according to you) connotates sexism.

NOW, you tell us that if a WOMAN uses it (and many women here do) its ok.

it is interesting that you would call ME out if i called another man a PRICK but your fellow women CAN'T use the term BITCH

[RandomKoolzip]

70. How about this:

If someone does something evil or stupid or fucks you over or hurts you in some way, regardless of gender, you are free to call them whatever you want. How about it?

I'd hate to have to hold back on the cathartic name-calling if some woman robbed me of my life savings or burned down my house just cuz she's a woman and well, you know, exempt from certain criticisms. (Women are capable of evil, too, you know. And I personally don't see anyone on DU calling any female a bitch simply because they're female. They've usually dome something to deserve an insult in the first place.)

[slinkerwink]

71. you can go one step further than using gender-specific slurs, and

actually attack that person on their behavior, not by using insults aimed at their gender.

[jonnyblitz]

56. I missed this "bitch" thread.

everybody keeps bringing it up. I havent been around much the past month or so.... :shrug:

[calimary]

76. It started with the use of the term "bitch-slap" in somebody's thread.

Various posters saw that and jumped on it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

102. Hey waitta minute. The only thing I will berate you for is guilt by

association. If Slinkerwink says or posts something, I am not responsible for what she posts or says..if you have an issue with me..feel free to bring it to me, but certainly you can't hold me responsible for another's posts, posting styles or opinions.

[iverglas]

12. c'mon

You *know* that women's issues (and gblt issues, and people of colour's issues) aren't REAL issues.

They don't involve high finance, or big machines, or guns. Or able-bodied middle-class white men.

If only they could imagine how much we DON'T WANT to talk about the issues that bore them so, eh?

And as everybody keeps saying ... the solution to their problem is so fucking simple.

.

[slinkerwink]

16. by making fun of us or belittling us, they are attempting to quash

the discussion of those issues, because they don't want to hear those valid point and nor do they want to challenge some ways of their thinking. Hell, I had to challenge myself with the word "bitch" and I used it liberally before I found out the history and meaning behind that word, so I didn't use it again as a sexist slur against any woman or man.

[GOPisEvil]

Oh please. You are free to discuss anything you like.

However, do NOT swab everybody here with the same paint brush. I am willing to address the deficiencies in my own thoughts and words, but the accusatory tone taken by many people here only serves to place people on the defensive and choke off real discussion.

[iverglas]

27. uh oh ... that *was* sarcasm ;)

I beat my own head to a pulp on this about a year ago:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=814&forum=DCForumID24&omm=0
... you may recall it.

These days, I find that having no expectations is a reasonable substitute for, oh, expecting common decency.

.

[JohnLocke]

29. The victimization here is getting old.

[slinkerwink]

34. I love how when some men tell us to quit being victims because

we are trying to point out that sexism does exist in here. :eyes:

[JohnLocke]

41. I'm not telling you to quit being victims.

I'm telling you to quit falsely claiming that there is epidemic sexism at DU.

[slinkerwink]

45. a poll I posted shows that there is indeed sexism in here

want a link?

[GOPisEvil]

50. Is there SOME sexism? Of course.

Is it ubiquitous? Or is it a relatively small number?

I REALLY resent being called any kind of "-ist" when there is no evidence to present to prove that point.

[slinkerwink]

55. how about the "bitch" threads in which the majority tried to

belittle or ignore the concerns of the minority bringing up their concerns?

[GOPisEvil]

65. To be honest, I stayed the hell away from those threads.

So, I can't speak to their contents. I will, however, share my opinion here since you brought it up.

When the word "bitch" is used AT someone, it's offensive. I will give credit to some folks here who have caused me to think about how and in what context I use that word.

[slinkerwink]

69. and that's where I agree with you

because that word used at a woman or a man is a sexist slur in my view.

[DS1]

88. I've considered your points, and challenged my ways of thinking

however I remain unchanged, save not wanting to hear about it anymore.

[lalajohns]

25. Bush must be a happy man today...

Divide and conquer works every time....

[hiphopnation]

36. Agreed.

I give up for the day.

Have fun beating eachother to a bloody pulp!!

I'm going to read about which freedom some RWinger tried to steal from me today and actually do something about it. :hi:

[DS1]

83. Perhaps someday you'll realize that carrying the torch for which

so few care, this might not be the best place for you.

[slinkerwink]

90. again, this is a perfect example of ignoring concerns of the minorities

here.

[DS1]

101. again, you were being DESTROYED in the GD vote

You are the minority, the majority rules, how much more democratic do you want?

[GOPisEvil]

2. I don't think there's a coincidence.

But then since the installation of GW Bush, I'm more prone to conspiracy theories.

[Trajan]

5. Will ? ..

I could SWEAR my first words upon viewing my mother's OB was "Damn it all, anyways ..." ...

Yeah ..... THATS what I said ....

[rumguy]

6. how dare you will pitt, how dare you ignore the muted cries of the

oppressed

[WilliamPitt]

7. I'd prefer you just say Tainted Love

Pictures of a He-Man nordic mob frighten me. :) I accuse you of insensitivity.

[RetroLounge]

18. Tainted Love

.

[fishnfla]

35. HEY!! What the eff? Those are all white, hetero,males!!

Run away! Keep running!

[rumguy]

58. I'm not so sure they're hetero

[fishnfla]

78. And you would know this, how?

They are kinda buff, got the blue -eyed, blond thing going. Man I'd like to...shit, it really is bizarro world today

[rumguy]

86. it's a running joke that he-man was gay

and there's a lot of evidence from the cartoon that he was...

[w4rma]

96. I think the Skeletor mob is slightly outnumbered.

[jonnyblitz]

8. I suppose if i were a white straight guy i would agree

but many of us are capable of dealing with more than one topic.

[supernova]

10. Well, I chose not to

focus on those threads today. Those discussions will always be with us, unfortunately. But today was Condi's day for me. ;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. You know... this board would have a great deal less acrimony

if everyone just let everyone else discuss what they want to discuss..one other FINE point I might add to this discussion is...HOW MANY WHITE NATIONS have we bombed...what are the odds that racism plays INTO our little oil war?

Hatred is hatred and it's all worth taking a look at. Intolerance is intolerance and it's ALL worth taking a look at..

Generalizations made about entire populations are what MAKE IT PLAUSIBLE to the American people to kill little Iraqi children and babies in the name of freedom and protection...so if you don't think HATRED dovetails into the predicament we find ourselves in, Pitt, you are sorely mistaken.

[WilliamPitt]

15. "Generalizations about entire populations"

Wouldn't you say that the accusations of rampant racism, sexism and homophobia on DU generalize the entire population of this board?

[fishnfla]

23. welcome to the jungle

or step aside

or choose your weapon

or not.

I'll tell ya this, its a great way to raise your post count:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Let's take them one by one.

During the gay marriage debates, there were a number of homophobic statements and posts.

During the sexism debates, the charge wassn't that EVERYONE on DU was a sexist but rather that DU was tolerant of sexism as a community. I still don't think that is accurate and I agree it is a generalization and I think Skinner did his best to foster discussion.

On the thread concerning racism, the poster made specific accusations about specific posts and didn't generalize it to the whole community but questioned the values system of people..and whether I agree with his position or not, it isn't entirely invalid.

So..yes and no.

I DO think there are FAR more generalizations and outright insults being lobbed at anyone who brings up the subject and the irony of that is that it is mostly coming from people who criticize "group think" then demonstrate it.

Ironic, eh?

[iverglas]

46. I think you can think better than that

Wouldn't you say that the accusations of rampant
racism, sexism and homophobia on DU generalize
the entire population of this board?

Uh ... no. Are you actually saying that you would?

Wouldn't that just be the teeniest bit, well, really really dumb?

Sorta because the people making the "accusations" (nice loaded word, there) are part of the population in question?

If a woman asserts that there is rampant sexism in her society, is she calling herself a sexist?

Should any member of a population who does not share the characteristic in question not be able to distinguish between him/herself and the problematic members? As has been said: should each person not ask him/herself whether the shoe fits, and be able to tell whether it does or not? At least, if s/he happens to be feeling honest.

I just don't feel at all "accused" by any of these "accusations" of racism, sexism and homophobia. And I'm not at all afraid that anybody will confuse me with someone whom the "accusation" was actually levelled at.

Of course, that might be because I don't come here and say racist, sexist or homophobic things, or demean those who object to them.

.

[jonnyblitz]

51. what is with these people dictating what topics are worthy?

I suppose if their ox was getting gored it would be a different story.

[democracyindanger]

13. Uh oh

In his effort to untangle the net...

[WilliamPitt]

19. Right? I'm going to the movies.

[Intelsucks]

24. Let me guess... The Passion Of The Christ?

LOL:7

[fishnfla]

17. We are starting a new forum

GD: FOS

Flame or Smack

a.k.a. (Full Of Shit)

Oh and you should worry, because somehow, someway or somewhere its all your fault.

[supernova]

26. Flame War in 5..... 4....... 3..... 2.....1

:nuke:

[JohnLocke]

37. Already happened.

Flame War Index reading at 83/150.

[supernova]

52. Nah. A good flame war

gets going around 60+ replies or so. ;-)

[ExWife]

33. Condi sold her story to the sheeple

What more is there to say? We can beat it to death here but middle America bought it hook, line and sinker. You can't unring a bell.

[fishnfla]

43. Ex wife, welcome to DU, now dont use that term sheeple

it is offensive to sheep:)

[supernova]

61. Remains to be seen

whether Condi sold her story to the rest of America today. Personally I don't think she did the admin any favors.

:hi: Welcome to DU!

[VelmaD]

38. Last time I checked...

I had enough brain power to discuss more than one important topic at a time.

[slinkerwink]

47. ha, funny....so do I

;-)

[GOPisEvil]

60. Yes, but do you question the timing?

Condi's on, we're ripping her a new one here...all of a sudden a "long time lurker, recent poster" pops up with "Racism at this site". Of all days and at all times...why today and why then?

[VelmaD]

80. I didn't know much about the racism thread...

I've been out of pocket most of the day visiting friends and then driving to my parents' house.

I suppose I was giving the person the benefit of the doubt. I assumed they were just bringing it up in the context of the recent discussions about sexism and civility.

I'm trying not to have a knee-jerk reaction because people basically accused me of the same thing, being a disruptor, over the sexism threads and you of all people know that that isn't the case.

[GOPisEvil]

84. I dunno...I just thought it seemed odd.

I might be reading far too much into this whole thing. (Another thing to be pissed at * about - I used to be a little cynical, now I think I peg the meter sometimes.)

Our language and how we treat each other is a valid subject, I just thought it was an odd time to spring up.

There's way too much accusation and not enough education. I guess that's my second point.

I'm rambling. I'm going to sign off for a while.

[VelmaD]

91. Get away for a bit...

We can talk about it if you want when I get back in town.

And remember, this whole conversation didn't start in the last few days. We've been talking about it for years sometimes in GD and sometimes in ATA. Heck, we were fighting about this is the thread where I got called a "repressed, puritanical, neo-con" a couple of weeks ago. :)

[revcarol]

89. Notice the change in the topic, after certain people post.

They turn it to post THEIR concerns, NOT to discuss the topic.

YOWCH, another thread to stay out of.

[Sandpiper]

39. 45 US soliders and over 200 Iraqis have been killed in the past week

Today the National Security Advisor testifies as to her knowledge of events leading up to an attack that killed 3000 people...

But equally important is whether or not the word "bitch" should be allowed on the DU boards.

Good fucking grief. :eyes:

[RapidCreek]

42. Nah...I don't think they're real important comparably speaking

Just more poo throwing.

As far as Tweeter goes I don't think the truth has a damn thing to do with what appears to be his new found fondness of relavancy. He's just bringing the most easily aquired bucket of poo to the cage. He'll soon enough ally himself with the group most willing to fling it. That said...we can only hope the short time the public is exposed to the shit covered victims, is time enough to do some good. Soon enough he'll be back to swooning over Dr. Condi.

RC

[bearfartinthewoods]

49. there are dozens of condi threads

you just added to the count of threads on this subject.

why aren't you on the rice threads????

[hiphopnation]

59. Fried

steamed, shrimp...what kind of rice?

Careful now, you might offend one kind of rice!!

[jonnyblitz]

64. the condi threads are predictable.

I find freeperesque threads that need refuting much more worthy of posting to. How many threads/posts stating that Condi lies, Condie sucks need to be posted and read. YAWN. those threads got old real fast...

[bearfartinthewoods]

66. exactly......

[Q]

54. You're looking at the 'modern' Democratic party...

...that couldn't stick to one issue to save their lives. The party leaders are no better...with their pandering and bowing to the mighty Bush* and his 'just' war against brown people.

- The stolen 2000 election and lack of resolve to fight it proved to me that the Dem party couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They'll spend hours deliberating the finer points of religion and 'racism'...but won't devote a minute to understanding why America is falling to fascism and how the Democratic party is helping it happen through inaction and apathy.

- They fiddle while America...and the rest of the world...burns. And even though GWB* holds a fucking match in his hand...they can't quite figure out how the fire started.

[ParanoidPat]

57. Just post the rules, point out the 'alert' button and whatever you do.....

.....:evilgrin:

:kick:DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!:kick:

[RandomKoolzip]

63. Hasn't anyone here read "No Logo?"

This is exactly what Naomi Klein (a WOMAN) was talking about....in the early 90's, the left got distracted by issues about representation in the media and isms and PC and ended up ceding power tacitly to the corporate right....because they weren't looking.


Come on, people. Focus.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. I read it but I disagree with it. In that book, Klein was looking through

the lens of WHAT the left was doing without taking into account the ORGANIZED army the right had put in place economically on the legal, federal, state and local levels in order to attack women's rights, labor rights and culture in general.

So she told a story from the perspective of OUR mistakes without taking into account a great deal of the war waged on liberalism on many fronts..therefore..her assessment was incomplete.

[jonnyblitz]

77. we are merely commenting on threads for christ fucking sake

you people that want us to shut the fuck up when we get dissed seem to think we dont have the capacity to focus on more than one topic!! we can comment, point out ignorance on a discussion board AND vote for Kerry in November at the same time! Imagine that!! geezuz...

[bloom]

72. So start a thread about it...

eh, Will...? :)

[efhmc]

92. When I first started to post here, I was absolutely amazed at the amount

of sexism. I thought that maybe I was just looking at a small blip. However, one of the nicest posters (white male)here confirmed that this was often a very sexist site. I can not speak to racism or homophobia. I do pay much closer attention to the opinions of those personally affected over those who poo-poo the idea that it exist. Now that that is out of the way, when I came back from West Texas a little while ago, I came to the computer and DU to get the scoop on Condi and I'm still looking. I did listen to a bit of it and needed to consult DU before braving the main stream media. Doing my search NOW. I'll be back.

[spanone]

94. Gee Will, you stirred up a hornets' nest!

But I must agree with you. We've got to get along or the rethugs are gonna cut us like a herd.

[Cleita]

103. I'm surprised you stayed in the monkey forum this long.

You sure have a stronger stomach than me, but I guess somebody had to do it.

Been going over my links and info on the BFEE. Why isn't the whole Bush family in Leavenworth doing time? Between pappy's dirty business in the CIA and the Bush brothers drug dealing, the insider trading of Harken Energy by George, Jr., (How can they throw the book at Martha Stewart and give this guy a pass?) as well as the pedestrian offenses of DUI, cocaine possession and being AWOL, why wasn't the whole Bush family indicted, sent to prison and the key thrown away?

When I read of stuff like this, I really am tempted to believe their is a devil to sell your soul too.

Sorry for the rant. I'm so disgusted.

[EarlG]

104. Locking

These threads are becoming disruptive and divisive. Please see this post for more information:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1373685#1374667