WTF? Tank crew of M1 tank injured by RPG?

[reprobate]

Anyone have experience with this beast?

I just saw on BBC World during their iraq report, video showed crewman with obviously terribly burned hands crawling out of the turret of an M1, with fire coming from the rear of the turret, while the audio described how the crew injuries were not life threatening after the tank was hit by an RPG.

I thought the M1 was supposed to be impervious to almost anything. At least that's how it was advertized. How the hell could it be damaged by a simple handheld RPG?

Or are we buying pigs in pokes without guaranteeing performance to spec?

[Qanisqineq]

1. my husband used to be a tanker

and he can't figure out what would have done that kind of damage

[brokensymmetry]

2. Actually,

I think it was a Marine Corps landing craft...not an M1

[mike1963]

8. No, I saw video on CNN and CNNI. It was absolutely a tank.

...

[DS1]

10. It was not an AAV <- coming from a fmr AAV driver

and it was too low to be an LAV

[kalian]

3. M1s are NOT invulnerable....

and it might not have been an "RPG" but something more powerful.
Remember that a couple months back an M1 had been disabled by
some militias? It completely wiped out the tank and the only telltale
sign was a pinky-sized hole on its side near the tracks....

If the militias got a hold of some of the latest Russian ATGMs
systems, then the M1s are in deep trouble....

[madrchsod]

19. yes

in that report about that tank there were reports of new russian atgm`s in southern iraq..just the thing for urban warfare-take out a tank in the narrow streets effectively making a road block...

[MercutioATC]

4. Ever hear of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle???

...check into it. We have a lot of them. See how they were tested.

[The Traveler]

5. RPG seems an unlikely candidate for that

HEAT? (High Explosive Anti-Tank).

[Jackpine Radical]

12. HEAT or HEPT, maybe.

HEPT= high explosive plastic tank round. Could be a round from some kind of LAW (light antitank weapon), bazooka or recoilless rifle-type weapon, more likely the former since RRs are pretty big to be dragged around by guerillas.

[The Traveler]

32. HEPT ... new one on me

Learn something new every time. Bad news, anyway you cut the pie. Anything that can hurt an Abrams would shred a Bradley. Hope there aren't too many of those lying around.

Who am I kidding? There are probably several hunred to thousands of 'em. Jeeze.

[displacedtexan]

6. That tank was supposed to stand up to Soviet armor.

Something's fishy about this story.

[Fitzovich]

7. From the little I understand

The M1 is impervious to RPG's unless of course they got a lucky hit of sometype.

[democracyindanger]

9. Dobbs had Grange on

and asked him the same thing. Grange's answer was (I'm paraphrasing from memory) that even a 70 ton combat vehicle could be vulnerable depending on tactics and terrain.

Also, in another thread it was asked why it was on fire, and after seeing the video there were rucks or vests strapped to the outside, and it looked like that was what was on fire.

[DarkPhenyx]

11. Open turret/driver hatch.

It is the desert, and they don't drive buttoned up all the time. As meantioned above it could also be a hightech AT round of some kind.

[Zero Gravitas]

36. yup

Thats what I was thinking too, the hatch was open and the round went in the turret or exploded near the open hatch. Or maybe it was one of those Russian anti-tank rounds mentioned already.

[bigbillhaywood]

RPG my ass

They can barely penetrate light armor, much less the armor of an M1 Abrams

[lastknowngood]

13. There have been a number of M1's taken out in this mess two

were killed by an unknown device which penetrated the tank to it's core but only made a hole the size of pencil. The others have been taken out with RPG-7's with hits between the turent and body. It is an extremely small target area and must be hit precisely. No hit on the reactive armor has penetrated except the small pencil holes and no explanation has been put forth.

[ExWife]

14. My ex-M1A1 service brother says they had the hatch open and riding

"windage" as he called it. That would allow fragments of an explosion hitting the tank. Other than that an RPG would only make noise in the tank.

[tabasco]

15. The crew may have been popped up when they got hit.

I think the injured crewmembers were popped out of their hatches when they got hit. It looked to me like they were able to move the tank to an area where it was safe to dismount. The tank was not on fire, it was some of the gear stowed in the bustlerack (on the back of the turrett) that was burning. An RPG packs a good punch, and might blow a track off, but it will not penetrate the armor of an M-1. IMO, the tank in the video was pretty much undamaged.

[bigbillhaywood]

16. Also consider that journalist don't have a clue what they're talking about

half the time.

[AZCat]

17. Nothing is impervious, but here is some info

Link to good article on RPG-7: http://www.g2mil.com/RPG.htm

Link to general description of M1: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm

Article on "active protection systems" (the type used on the M1- article talks about survivability) : http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/3aps98.pdf

[wuushew]

18. The M-1 is not invincible

The US Army's M1 Abrams main battle tank (MBT) top side, and rear armour "remains susceptible to penetration" and needs improving, according to the Tank and Automotive Command's (TACOM) Abrams programme manager office (PM Abrams).

In a report into the US Army's principal MBT's performance during Operation 'Iraqi Freedom', however, PM Abrams said the tank's frontal turret and hull armour continues to provide excellent crew protection.


-snip-


Details of the M1 losses were given, including one where 25mm armour-piercing depleted uranium (AP-DU) rounds from an unidentified weapon disabled a US tank near Najaf after penetrating the engine compartment. Another Abrams was disabled near Karbala after a rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) penetrated the rear engine compartment and one was lost in Baghdad after its external auxiliary power unit was set on fire by medium-calibre fire.




http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jdw/jdw030620_1_n.shtml

[Zech Marquis]

20. rear of turret and tank

are big targets to hit with some kind of anti tank missile, rpg will near a very lucky shot. That's where the tank crew--driver in front by himself--do their business. But if they had the turret hatch open...any missile hit would mess up the crew inside. like someone said before, a rpg on one of these M1s would be like a speedbump, so it had to be something with more pow to it :-(

And when you have to be carried out of an M1 all cut and burnt up, you know it was more than a lucky shot...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

21. This is what took out a couple of M-1s early in the war...the Kornet...

<http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/SciTech/iraq_kornetFAQ030327.html>

<http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/>

<http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/at-14.htm>

<http://www.defense-update.com/products/k/kornet-e.htm>

<http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/cn/Qiraq-us-tank.RpbB_DOT.html>

[mouse7]

22. M-1 is vulnerable if the hatches are open

Normal operation mode of a tank is with the commander half-out of the top hatch and the driver looking out the drive hatch in front.

Tanks only "button-up" when there is an enemy threat. Tanks get outrageously hot inside when riding around buttoned up, especially in a desert in the Middle East.

Poor bastards probably got ambushed in a normally secure area.

[democracyindanger]

23. Question

The bulge in the middle of the main barrel--what's that for?

[captain_change]

25. That bulge

It is the bore evacuator. It creates a negative pressure in the tube in the outward direction to suck all the smoke out rather than having it blow back into the turret when the breech is open. When you see a tank (Also Artillery) fire, after the round and flame shoot out, you will see a little puff of smoke. On the 120 MM, the bore evacuator is pretty big in comparison to the 105MM (we called it the pregnant bore evacuator). In WW II you would see tank crews looking like chimney sweeps from the smoke after the battle

[mike1963]

27. What kind of munitions are these 105/120 guns? Are they 'cartridges',

like what's commonly called a 'bullet' (a casing with a self-contained projectile like a .50 cal) or do they use a separate charge to shove out some other kind of elective head...and are there any 'casings' that need to be disposed of? (I'm very familiar with small arms but have no knowledge of anything bigger than something you can shoulder fire...)

[captain_change]

30. Munitions

The 105 MM is out of the system for tanks (except for some allies with M60 & M48). The 120 MM fires a Sabot round, a depleted uranium dart that goes 1 mile a second, HEAT round (High Explosive Anti-Tank) with a shaped charged, HEPE used against bunkers etc. I am not sure if they have a "Bee Hive" round for the 120 MM, this round has 18,000 tungsten tipped flechetts that will deploy at 300 meters or farther (by a setting on the round), ruin any troops in the open whole day.

All the rounds are one piece, with a cartridge remaining in the breech after firing (well not in the breech, but ejacted onto out when the gun comes out of battery). The 120 mm is a small cartridge about the size of a ash tray with everything else going out the tube

[democracyindanger]

29. Head...hurting...

but I think I get it. Thanks :)

[Devils Advocate NZ]

24. Link to raw footage from Reuters...

If you go to this page:

http://reuters.feedroom.com/ifr_main.jsp?st=1081475229141&rf=bm&mp=WMP&wmp=1&rm=1&cpf=true&fr=040504_115106_17d5d2axfbbb1d5cfaxw415&rdm=624470.0836977506#frtop

And click on the link:

Injured Soldiers
Major Fighting In Fallujah

You will see raw footage of the incident in question. (well it looks like what everyone is talking about, but I could be wrong)

The tank commander gets out of the tank first with an injured hand. Later either the gunner or loader tries to get out but has to be assisted. At one point there is a close up and he appears to have a shrapnel wound to his groin or thigh.

It looks to me like the injuries came from shrapnel bouncing around inside the tank, and I doubt that could have happened unless the tanks armour was penetrated.

The only other way shrapnel could get in would be for an explosion overhead to have sent shrapnel down through the turret hatches, and that would have shredded the tank commander.

So whatever did this, did it by punching a hole in the side.

[Bonobo]

26. Dumb question: Why don't they air-condition tanks?

if they're vulnerable with the hatch open and the hatch is open cause it's hot?

[captain_change]

28. Air conditioning

The M1 has an over pressure system for NBC, but it doesn't blow air conditioned air. Tankers have "cool vests" that are suppose to circulate cooling water around their torso

[Twillig]

31. Well, the NBC system actually does blow cool air

The cool vests hook up to vents connected to the NBC system. It was very nice and cool rolling through the desert with the NBC going.

Of course that was all back in 87-91 and GW1. So I could be out of date.

That tank looks like it survived pretty well. The joke from basic on with the 'most survivalable tank' propaganda that we were supposed to have faith in was 'Yeah, the tank will survive. You won't.'

It's supposed to get hit in the frontal armor, after all. Other areas are less protected. It's quite clear if you look closely enough.

[captain_change]

33. Probably right

I mainly used the M48, M60 and the first M1's (105mm) , never actually saw one of the those famous cool vests, just read about it

[Twillig]

35. we never used the vests themselves.

mostly just stuck the hose down our shirts or our pants.

[rocktivity]

34. Is this what you're talking about?

From
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1374844

:headbang:
rocknation

[Kagemusha]

37. The pencil holes are the sort made by French rockets

Col. Hackworth wrote about their being used by the Croats against Serb tanks in the Bosnian conflict.