LIHOP vs. LIHOAOBCFI

[troublemaker]

Let It Happen On Account Of Being Crazy Fucking Idiots.

These deep thinkers haven't done hardly ANYTHING on purpose. I'm comfortable believing they didn't have a clue before (or after) 9/11.

There have been a zillion times when the Bush crew did something so bluntly stupid it was almost impossible to take at face value--"okay, now what are they up to?" Yet every damn time it turned out that they are actually that stupid.

Think of all the things that have happened in Iraq that a) genuinely hurt the administration, and b) that a child could have seen coming a mile away.

Half the people in congress who voted for the Iraq war won't admit their true reason; the administration's claims were so utterly and transparently STUPID that many Democrats in congress assumed they were being set-up... that at some point after the vote the administration was going to disclose some piece of absolutely hair-raising intelligence to politically finish off everyone who had voted NO. (Most members of congress are clueless about intelligence but shrewd about political dirty tricks) As it became apparent that there was no hidden smoking gun everyone realized that the truth was more horrible than their worst fears. These people are actually that dumb and crazy.

[mot78]

1. LIHOAOBCFI

But it's looking more like LIHOP every day.

[K8-EEE]

9. I've Always Thought It Was LIHOAOBCFI Myself...

But I'm starting to think that SOMEBODY (Cheney) LIHOP. Cuz they can't ALL be that STUPID!!

[scottxyz]

2. ROTFLMFAO

n/t

[ewagner]

3. It's sad

We're given the opportunity to make an intellectually honest decision between having a President (and administration) so evil that they would let 3000+ people die for political purposes, or, we have a president who is dumb and crazy.

Nice choices...........

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. I used to be a LIHOP person,

and I think there are some aspects that might still be LIHOP, but after listening to the 9-11 testimony, I am more and more convinced that these people are incompetent, and far, far, far more incomeptent than I ever imagined.

And I'm actually more afraid of their abject incompetence, arrogance, and hubris, than I was afraid when I thought they deliberately allowed and/or helped (or looked away from) attacks and other things to happen.

I used to think their evil was proactive, but I'm becoming more and more convinced that they don't have the intelligence to be proactive, and simply take advantage of events as they happen. And they can't even take advantage of events in a compellingly intelligent and useful way.

They're just assitudinal boobs.

[wabeewoman]

8. Yep, Rabrrrrr

I have to agree. I don't believe they had the smarts to recognize the problems. Isn't it just the ultimate irony that all these months bush has been going around crowing about being so tough on terror when he actually was asleep on the job? The man has no shame! It seems like EVERYTHING is the exact opposite with these jokers.

[lapfog_1]

LIHOP

I'm just the opposite, after all that I've read, heard in the 9/11
hearings, and found on the internet, I believe that it is LIHOP...
and Cheney was telling the truth, Clarke was not in the loop.

After putting in 10 years with Federal Gov, I was always more willing
to believe the old adage, "never ascribe to malice that which can
explained by incompetence"... but given the PNACers and their goals,
and their need for a "Pearl Harbor" event to justify their never
ending war... and the many disturbing facts around 9/11, I think that
LIHOP is now the MOST REASONABLE explanation (though a very disturbing
one).

Besides, Paul O'Neill describes Bush as a lot smarter than we give
him credit here. "They misunderestimate me."

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. And that's the other part of the equation that doesn't let me go

to the idea of total incompetence, that there ARE some very intelligent running this cabal, and that they may very well be intentioanlly trying to make everything look like stupidity and ignorance.

They are either utterly brilliant, or utterly brain-dead morans, and I just can't decide what's happening.

And perhaps that's the sign of their utter brilliance.

[Selwynn]

5. Depraved Indifference.

[tom_paine]

21. Well said, Selwynn!

:toast: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Nice to see you :hi: It's been awhile.

Hope you are well.

[mouse7]

6. Incompetance doesn't explain put options increase vs. airline stocks

$15 billion in put option in the days leading up against airline stocks.

Someone knew and made a lot of money, too.

[JohnyCanuck]

10. Good summary of 9/11 Insider Trading from Ruppert's latest article

<snip>

In order to argue that massive and well-documented insider trading occurring in at least seven countries immediately before the attacks of Sept. 11 did not serve as a warning to intelligence agencies, then it is necessary to argue that no one was aware of the trades as they were occurring, and that intelligence and law enforcement agencies of most industrialized nations do not monitor stock trades in real time to warn of impending attacks. Both assertions are false. Both assertions would also ignore the fact that the current executive vice president of the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) for enforcement is David Doherty, a retired CIA general counsel. And also ignored is the fact that the trading in United Airlines stock -- one of the most glaring clues -- was placed through the firm Deutschebank/Alex Brown, which was headed until 1998 by the man who is now the executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard.


<snip>

Not a single U.S. or foreign investigative agency has announced any arrests or developments in the investigation of these trades, the most telling evidence of foreknowledge of the attacks. This, in spite of the fact that former Security and Exchange Commission enforcement chief William McLucas told Bloomberg News that regulators would "certainly be able to track down every trade."

What is striking is that a National Public Radio report on Oct. 16 reported Britain's Financial Services Authority had cleared bin Laden and his henchmen of insider trading. If not bin Laden, then who else had advance knowledge? (my emphasis /jc)

It has been standard and established USG policy to be alert and responsive to anything even remotely resembling an attack on U.S. companies and/or the economy. The word "remote" does not apply here. The possible claim by the Bush Administration that, 'Gee, we just happened to miss this,' becomes even more implausible when considering the lengths intelligence agencies go to in order to track stock trades.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/040804_condi_rice.html

[aquart]

11. Nor that interesting call to Willie Brown telling him not to fly.

[OneBlueSky]

19. nor does it explain the lack of an air defense response . . .

until after the attack on the Pentagon, and hour and a half after the whole thing began . . .

[leftofthedial]

7. are you talking about the stupid people . . .

who managed to seize power in the most powerful nation and oldest democracy on the planet?

who managed in just six months to execute the most massive transfer of wealth in history?

who have weathered the most stunning series of scandals, blunders, exposes, and bald-faced lies in the history of politics?

who have managed to make several trillion dollars disappear from the treasury (into their own pockets) and remain unaccountable for the theft?

who managed to convince the oldest democracy on the planet and the beacon to the free world to pre-emptively invade a country that posed no threat?

They are incompetent at governance, but that is because they hate government. They are extremely competent at executing their actual agenda. 9-11 was a key enabling event in that agenda.

[Minstrel Boy]

12. And the people who fantasized about a new Pearl Harbor

and got precisely that?

The people who saw to it John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial, and Pentagon leadership cancelled flights on the eve of Sept 11 due to security concerns?

The people who had the Patriot Act waiting, and saw it passed when Democratic leadership received Anthrax in the mail?

Stupid people can be lucky, but not that lucky. Even lucky people aren't that lucky.

[aquart]

14. Exactly.

Stupid is their defensive position. "Gee, golly, we just didn't know. Shucks."

But they did know.

Bush's behavior in the classroom makes me believe HE knew. Cheney knew because he's the brains of the outfit. I'll take a flyer that Rumsfeld knew.

What did they know? That if they just sat and did nothing, Pearl Harbor would fall into their laps. Did they manage to put money in the pockets of the terrorists? Maybe. But bin Ladin was perfectly capable of supplying that himself. Did they make sure there were no problems with Saudi visas? Very possibly.

They had a good guess a plane would be used to crash into something. Al qaeda didn't do conventional hijackings.

I don't know what happened with Sibel Edmunds. That the info was coming in solidly (we so did not need the Patriot Act)seems likely, but if it came in, what happened to it? Sibel was hired after 9/11 wasn't she? She was translating an old pile of neglected stuff. So that pile never made it to the White House. That was an FBI idiocy and yet no one has been fired.

But without Sibel's translations, I still think there was more than enough for the boys to hightail it out of town. And do whatever they could to look innocent.

LIHOP for fun and profit.

[necso]

17. Two very important points here.

The bushiviks needed some major event to enable them to acheive their agenda.

The anthrax attacks were an element of the overall hysteria that enabled the agenda to go through (and turned much attention to WMD).

Remember that the top level bushiviks are only a part of a huge "Apparat" (I love the term) that is focused (fixated) on the same goals. There are also legions of fellow travelers who have distant or no direct affiliation with the "Apparat" proper.

Perhaps we are looking in the wrong places for the best evidence of LIHOP/MIHOP. Perhaps the whole sequence of events bears reexamination.

[Minstrel Boy]

18. I like what you say about the "top level bushiviks" being "only part

of a huge Apparat that is focused (fixated) on the same goals."

I've long believed that 9/11 explains to some degree the travesty of the 2000 election. That is, elements within the Apparat needed a Bush victory in order to seize the moment they knew was soon coming.

Florida is an interesting study. The time Atta and others spent training stank of drugs/covert ops/BCCI. Someone else who carries the same stink is Governor Jeb who, it's reported, seized the Huffman school's records before dawn on the 12th. Jeb is a signatory to PNAC, and we know the lengths to which he went to deliver Florida to his brother.

[necso]

20. But what in 2000,

did "elements of the Apparat know was soon coming"?

Certainly later on "insiders" knew that something involving airplanes was going to happen (even in some detail). (Perhaps that explains certain "coincidences" in timing.) But was this known in 2000?

I think that there were likely two separate plots going on in 2000. But who had wind of what and when? How much was opportunism and how much was planning? Examining top level bushivik involvement in 9-11, I think, is unlikely to provide these answers. My guess is that the visible figures were largely (even entirely) isolated from any "active" involvement in any of this. Indeed, I think top level deniability, except for some "understandable" inaction, will prove to be very good... these guys have had plenty of practise.

[leftofthedial]

24. then again, it could be planning (and therefore knowledge)

of the 9-11 "Pearl Harbor" event was underway while the PNAC'ers were planning both the coup and 9-11 way back in the 90's.

[Bozvotros]

13. Iran-Contra

The fact that so many of these evil pricks were around during or assisted with Iran-Contra which led to the horrific deaths of tens of thousands of innocents in Central America is all one needs to know. Incompetent? Without a doubt.

Evil, manipulative, grasping, cold hearted bastards, who are willing to plan or make mass murder happen on purpose? That is absolutely certain also.

As soon as a few in the major media begin to grudgingly talk LIHOP while rolling their eyes and winking, is when people need a massive reeducation about Iran-Contra and the October surprise. That should at least get the tinfoil sheen off of LIHOP.

[charlie]

16. ...and the Paris Peace Talks

Republicans have never been timid about doing whatever it takes to seize power.

[nolabels]

22. With LIHOP out of the bag, I am more than willing to think this whole.....

effing worked up bag of crap is bogus. They could have never done Afghanistan or Iraq if everybody knows what we know now. * is a traitor.

I never fell for the war on communism, the war drugs or the war on crime. The real war was the one the truth, I can see

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.' - Plato (427-347 B.C.)"

"We have art to save ourselves from the truth.' - Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900)

http://www.miniluv.com/mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=471

[rman]

23. so Bush & co self-enrichment as a result of this war

is coincidence?

We have been up and down the incompetence road several times.

It couldn't be that they conned everyone in order to get more wealth and power? I mean, they *did* get more wealth (warprofiteering, oil, reconstruction contracts) and power (millitary bases in Iraq, patriot act). Due to stupidity? Coincidence maybe?

And for instance the "clean air act" ("which will do wonders for the energy industry" -bush) that actually increases emission of polutance is also incompetence, not mallicious?

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." - President Franklin D Roosevelt

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - President J Edgar Hoover

[maggrwaggr]

25. Wow! You make a really interesting point. If so, Kerry should say it

and I'd have more respect for him, and anybody else who voted for the war.

[Blue_Tires]

26. i also used to think that

but usually when that happens, there's a scpaegoat(s) who are asked to resign immediately after...

so far not one person has been fired