Why oh why can't Kerry say things like this?

[dd123]

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/16/ltm.01.html

HOWARD DEAN: The right thing to do is to have a president who understands what it is to ask Americans to give their lives in the service of their country and to be a little bit more discriminating about what represents a danger to the United States and what doesn't.

--Still in love with Dean. :loveya: I just can't HELP IT!!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Right on, Howard!

Still love the guy!

[mike_c]

2. 'cause Kerry voted to send Americans to give their lives...

...to defend us from the Iraqi "danger to the United States." Why do so many dems conveniently forget or ignore Kerry's deep complicity in all this?

[unblock]

3. deep complicity???

kerry voted before the administration's lies were fully exposed.

furthermore, the worst you can say about his voting for the war was that it was a cynical move to neutralize a potentially devastating campaign issue.

but "deep complicity"? did kerry assist in fabricating evidence or knowingly spreading lies?

[mike_c]

5. he abdicated his responsibility to authorize war only under...

...extreme circumstances warranting the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents. I'd call that deep complicity. Even when considered under the best possible light, how can anyone argue that "a cynical move to neutralize a potentially devastating campaign issue" was worth anyone's life, let alone the destruction unleashed in Iraq? IMO, Kerry's hands are as bloody as Bush's. And why hasn't he yet apologized for his vote, or admitted that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is fundamentally wrong? Instead, he wants to continue it.

Yes, I'd say that Kerry is up to his eyeballs in complicity for the invasion and conquest of Iraq.

on edit: "kerry voted before the administration's lies were fully exposed"-- were you reading the posts on DU during the run-up to the IWR? There was no shortage of evidence to suggest that the administration's statements were at the very least dubious enough to merit reconsideration before authorizing mass deaths. Just a strong resistance to heeding that evidence among the Democratic party leadership.

[emulatorloo]

18. Stop Blaiming Dems for the Sins of GWB

First, no dem I know besides Joe Lieberman was interested in a unilateral rush for war.

Second, IWR was not an up/down vote to go to war. Bush told them he needed it to go to the UN with conviction, and that he would follow that path. They could not believe that the President would lie about this kind of sh*t - and people believed and trusted that Colin Powell would do the right thing when he looked them in the eye and promised they would do everything possible to avoid war.

Third, the people in the senate saw "classified briefings. etc" that you and I never saw. See my post below.

I have read numerous posts from you and they mostly seem to be about vilifying Kerry et all for IWR vote and Patriot Act and EXCUSING George W Bush.

George W Bush is the one who abused IWR by rushing headlong into war. George W BUsh is the one who abused patriot act.

(PS no I didn't support the war, yes I was upset when IWR passed, but this is GEORGE W BUSH's abomination - so blame him)

[mike_c]

33. sorry, that's not the way American government works....

GWB got a pass from the Congress-- a pass that he had to get before staging the invasion of Iraq. Kerry had a chance to say "No." He chose to say "Yes." I don't know hom much more clearly to say it.

As for the rest of your post-- guilty as charged. I'm a lifelong democrat who is VERY disappointed in what has become of my party. I criticize the party on many fronts these days. I view it as constructive criticism, but I understand that not all will agree.

Finally, I have NEVER excused George W. Bush for anything. The complicity of democrats who've carried water for him in NO WAY excuses his responsibilities for the actions of his administration. It's just that I expect chicanery from dumbya, but I expect better from the opposition Democratic Party, and in particular from its chosen candidate for the presidency.

[Kanary]

14. for the bazillionth time

If us ordinary citizens saw through the lies, why in the world couldn't Kerry?

REad back at that time, and look at all the writings of columnists, etc., who saw through the lies.

What was Kerry reading?

Cereal boxes?

Kanary

[emulatorloo]

16. Kerry et al saw things ordinary citizens never saw -

google and you will read about Dick Durbin talking about all the top secret classified reports that the CIA was shoveling to the senate.

Check MTP transcripts where Wes Clark talks about a briefing generals/ex-generals got from Rumsfield where he showed them photographs of where the WMDs were stored and spoke of certainty that they knew where 90% of the WMDs were. And Wes believed them.

You and I were so f*cking smart that we saw thru it, but we did not get the shitstorm that these folks got from this admin.

[dd123]

17. delete

[dd123]

19. Hmmm. Isn't Bush quoted by Bob Woodward as being

skeptical of the evidence? What was his quote? Ah, here it is:

'Nice try,' but that isn't going to sell Joe Public. That isn't going to convince Joe Public."

Woodward writes in his book, "The presentation was a flop. The photos were not gripping. The intercepts were less than compelling. And then George Bush turns to George Tenet and says, 'this is the best we've got?'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/17/iraq/main612400.shtml

OMG, does this mean that Bush is more perceptive than Kerry is? Bush saw the evidence and instinctively knew that it was BS, but he wanted to go in for reasons that we still don't know (my guess? oil!). Kerry was just taken in! aaaaauuuugggghhhh!!!

Dean knew what Bush knew too. He talked about Powell's case after his presentation at the UN and he wasn't convinced either.

[emulatorloo]

26. Perceptive enough to know they had to come up with better stuff for the

Senate.

Again you and I and Dean saw Powell before the UN and thought it was lame. . .I read somewhere and I am sorry I don't have a link that feinstein was against IWR, and then there was a particular briefing, and when she came out of that breifing she was for IWR.

I personally can't think of anyone smarter that Wes Clark. And if he believed it it must have been good. He also speaks about giving Rumsfeld the benefit of the doubt - they just didn't expect them to lie about something as serious as an imminent threat,

[dd123]

31. All I know is that I do not trust the judgement of anyone who

supported the Iraq War be they Democrat or Republican. If they won't tell me exactly what they saw, I will not give them the benefit of the doubt because they have caused hundreds and thousands of deaths over this mistake.

They should argue that what they saw should be declassified because it is obviously wrong and the contacts that brought us this info are either worthless, or they deliberately tried to deceive us. Why should we protect these people?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. The NeoCons are the ones that have lied repeatedly to push us into...

...this war with Iraq. They are the ones, with the able assistance of the Pentagon's OSP, that manipulated the data to present a case for WMDs in Iraq, and a connection between Al Qaeda and Saddam.

Don't blame the Democrats (except Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman, Joe Biden and Bob Kerrey), or even the moderate Republicans, for believing that what they were being told by the NeoCons was true.

And whatever you do, don't believe anything that Woodward says in his book...it's all a ploy to protect Junior.

[dd123]

38. Isn't it then in Kerry's best interest to expose the lies by insisting

that this stuff be declassified so we can see it and examine it?

Yet, I don't see him asking for this. What is with that?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

41. Because we do not yet understand the full depth of the lies...

...but that information is coming out slowly but surely without some grandstanding play by Kerry.

What's with your constant barrage of anti-Kerry posts? What's your agenda here?

[dd123]

43. I feel that I ought to vote for him because I really hate Bush

But I don't want to feel responsible for what Kerry does or doesn't do and I don't trust his judgement.

I feel doom and I feel despair and I think we are going to be in a complete mess a few years from now. It's like when you see the train wreck but you have no way of stopping it and you know that everyone on that train is doomed.

I saw the Iraq war that way. Now I see the future of our country that way.

I am terrified of peak oil, of the resulting collapse in our economy, of an endless spiral in Iraq and Afghanistan and a war of civilizations between Christians/Jews vs. Muslims. I want a hero to save us or at least someone who will honestly tell us what we need to do to save ourselves.

I don't see Kerry as that man. Bush will doom us even sooner. I want to save this country and this world and I feel helpless so I rail at Kerry to grow a spine or hope he will drop out. But I know he won't. And I think we're doomed.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. No, it actually means Woodward is lying through his teeth...

...to try to paint Junior as a perceptive individual capable of rational thought.

Tenet did everything he could to tell the NeoCons that there were NO Iraqi WMDs. He advised Junior not to use the "16 words" in his State of the Union Address, and he advised Powell not to claim that Iraq had WMDs in his speech to the UN.

Woodward is lying to cover the lies of Junior.

[Kanary]

24. How many years has Kerry had "top secret" junk shoveled at him?

For one that experienced, with a military background, ...

Nope, not buying it.

If he was hoodwinked that easily, gawd help us all........

Kanary

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. How many other Congresspeople are in that same boat? How many...

...others were hoodwinked just as easily?

[Kanary]

46. If you've read replies here, you've answered your own question

Dennis Kucinich led a large contingent in the House to vote against.

Kerry STILL hasn't answered the big question.

So, who's hoodwinked?

Kanary

[Mechatanketra]

39. Funny thing ...

google and you will read about Dick Durbin talking about all the top secret classified reports that the CIA was shoveling to the senate.

And yet somehow, Dick Durbin himself managed to struggle valiantly against the mind control assault and vote against the war.

Either that, or Dick Durbin is just soft on defense, right? Bleah.

You're not "smart enough to see through the shitstorm" -- you're part of it.

[emulatorloo]

45. Some voted against IWR, good for them

Kerry OTOH has always been for non-proliferation of WMDs. Promises were made that war would be the last resort to disarm SH. Those promises were broken.

GWB broke those promises.

You're not "smart enough to see through the shitstorm" -- you're part of it.

Tell me about the time when you were lied to and abused, and how it was all your fault that the liar lied to you, and how the liar was blameless.

[Mechatanketra]

47. Sigh. Codependocrats.

There were no WMDs to proliferate. Hussein was disarmed before the invasion. These facts are now abundantly obvious, except to (a) Bush supporters and (b) Kerry supporters.

Kerry isn't out there saying "Oh, my god, Bush lied to us and tricked us into shooting at innocent people". Every complaint of his I've heard isn't that we invaded period, on fraudulent causes, but that it was "unilateral" -- as if everything would have been FINE if MORE people had been gulled, and there were more hands to share the blood.

Bush isn't blameless. (Understatement of the century.) But neither, for that matter, is Blair (for instance) -- he bought a share of the blame, and continues to every time he mouths off in support of the war. Ditto Aznar. Ditto Howard (Australia's, not Dean). Ditto Kerry. I could have forgiven him for the IWR resolution vote had he taken the chance to recant it when we didn't find anything. But no, it's not that we were wrong to invade, it's that we did it alone. By sticking to that message, after the WMD smokescreen has cleared, Kerry bought a share of the crime. Maybe he was "lied to and abused" -- but now he's part of the circle of abuse, the child who grows up to abuse his own kids.

And so long as "it would have been OK if it wasn't just us" is the message, everyone who covers for Kerry's stance is also covering Bush's ass. Because it's not OK. The Iraq invasion wasn't just handled badly, it was a bad thing to do. Anyone who can't see that, can't say that, now, after the invasion and the inspections and the complete lack of supporting evidence for the WMD claims, is seriously lacking either brains or morals. I've already got a President missing those qualities; if I'm getting stuck with brainlesslness or heartlessness, I don't particularly care which party it's ostensibly coming from.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. I do not buy that

and there is no excuse for making excuses

we all knew here that there were no WMD

WE KNEW it. We heard Scott Ritter. We heard the UN inspectors. We heard ElBaradie (sp?)

We KNEW it. We took to the streets. We are NOT Washington insiders , sophisticated eighty thousand a year jobs and privy to the information of the good old boys

We, the proles, saw it, because WE have common sense, and WE are willing to research and listen and read.

WE KNEW IT.

and so I do not accept that KErry and those who voted for the slaughter did NOT know it/

That is as bad as asking me to believe that Bush did not lie about WMD

[camero]

6. Everybody forgets

His vote on the Patriot Act too. He also voted for that.

[mike_c]

7. not everyone has forgotten....

Whatever his war stance 30 years ago or his voting record during the Reagan and Bush I presidencies, Kerry has carried major water for the neocon agenda during the Bush II administration. Democrats ignore that at their peril. Unfortunately, it's too late. Thank god the Green party still has a conscience....

[emulatorloo]

22. Ending the Era of John Ashcroft

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1201.html

A speech worth reading.

[mike_c]

27. great speech....

But he still uses it to endorse the WOT (neocon meme) and fails to acknowledge his partial responsibility for the USA PATRIOT Act. Nonetheless, I do believe that Kerry will work to reduce the excesses of the Act.

[emulatorloo]

29. there is a dif between neocon WOT and what JK advocates

Neocon war on terror = iraq invasion, and more and more colonialism.

JK - first responders, secure ports, intelligence and law enforcement against terrorists, dry up funding, etc military as last resort.

[mike_c]

30. we'll see....

I presume Kerry WILL have his chance to prove he's the anti-Bush!

[CityZen-X]

10. Kerry Is...

Skull & Bones! One of the apropos, the good old boy's. What we have here is the evil of the lessers, for sure! But I tell you what, I would vote for "road kill" before Bu$h*t!

[OKNancy]

4. Sounds good

but Kerry says some really inspirational things all the time.
You just have to listen.


Tonight were all here because we believe there are still choices worth fighting for.

We're here tonight because we know the real strength of our nation doesn't only come out of the muzzle of an M-16, it doesn't only come out of the belly of a B-52, or from the accuracy of a cruise missile, awesome as all of those things may be.

The real strength of America comes from the education of our citizens, the safety and nurturing of our children, the empowerment of parents to create family and community at the same time, the full protection of rights under the law, and the conservation for future generations of the fragile planet we share with the other 94% of humanity.

And we know the values so worth fighting for on September 10th were not altered, changed or killed on September 11th. Those values are even more worth fighting for today and that struggle will not be stopped by Osama Bin Laden and Al-Quaida.

At the center of those values is a reality that really separates us from the other Party -- it is our deeply held belief that one of the first things worth fighting for is fairness -- fundamental fairness.

http://www.ourfuture.org/onmessage/other_contributors/kerry_3_2_02.cfm

[dd123]

9. The thing about Kerry and fairness is that he really didn't earn

what he has in life so when he talks like this, I kind of take it with a grain of salt.

[emulatorloo]

20. You need to educate yourself about Kerry's biography

I understand your sentiment if you were talking about GWB. You are way off base.

[dd123]

25. What do you mean?

Didn't he marry 2 heiressess? $300 million 1st time around and $500 million 2nd time right! How in the world is that earning what you have?

[emulatorloo]

28. There are other things in life besides money.

He does not strike me as someone who has taken the easy road of a wealthy person. Any more that Dean has.

[Mikimouse]

36. My guess would be that he might have had something to offer...

to even attract that kind of company in the first place. I have, however, heard those talking points before, and recently too, just can't remember what station they were on.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. How about volunteering to go to Vietnam...

...and during his first tour abourd ship in the Southeast Asia Theater asking to be assigned to the Swift Boats? How about getting wounded three times while performing well enough under fire to earn the Bronze Star with Combat V, and the Silver Star? How about going back to pull a wounded comrade out of the water while wounded himself?

How about having the courage to form the Vietnam Veterans Against the War after he got out of the Navy?

The "heiress" part of his life didn't take place until well after he had earned his place in history.

If you want to go ahead and continue to make an ass out of yourself by questioning Kerry's background and how he's lived life to date, feel free. It's your nickel.

[dd123]

42. I only brought this up because of his speech on fairness

and how it does not ring true. It has to do with hypocrisy, which has always inflamed Democrats hearts more than Republicans.

BTW, did you notice how he is protesting that he is not a "redistributionist"?

Ugh.

[pippin]

12. Oh sure when it's "safe"

to say all this. Carry on with the oratorical performance-- it'll get the sheeple democrats any time.

Dr. Dean--a man with real vision and real guts. We dems get what we deserve and what we'll get is a Bush lite Washington insider. Yeah, I'll have to vote for him, what other options do I have in the face of another four years of neo-con fascism any way? :puke:

[blm]

48. Dean was far to Kerry's right on economic issues.

Dean was far to Kerry's right on judicial issues.

Too many of you believed campaign rhetoric OVER Dean's ACTUAL record of governance and EXALT him endlessly when many of us prefer the man who REALLY carried progressive water for us for over 30 years - John Kerry.

BTW....Go read the Biden-Lugar bill which Dean said he would have voted for in the fall of 2002. It was very much like the IWR and also allowed Bush final say on going to war....even if pre-emptively.

[molly]

8. Hmmm - maybe because HD has nothing to lose?

Kerry is playing chess - watch Crossfire tomorrow morning.

[dd123]

11. You think Dean wouldn't say this if he were the presumptive nominee?

I'd say you're wrong. He's been saying this sort of thing from the beginning. That is what the party hacks dislike about him.

[maggrwaggr]

44. HD has always talked like that

And the only thing Kerry might be playing right now is rope-a-dope. Which I hope is the case.

[MAlibdem]

13. You don't have to "Help" loving Dean

but realizing he's not going to be President is important too.

[dd123]

15. Someday he will be if I have any say in the matter!

Never say die...

[emulatorloo]

21. It could happen someday. . .

I so hope he gets a foreign policy gig in the Kerry admin - Ambassador Dean is my dream. . .and that gets him the foreign policy exper for his next run.

[MAlibdem]

32. ok, im down

just talking this time 'round.